Question for Anglicans, please

[Dorothea]

Hi, all,

I was wondering if you all could enlighten me on what is going on with the ECUSA and CANA? I have just researched some of it today. It turns out the private Episcopal school I'm planning to put my boys in in a couple weeks has just disaffiliated itself from ECUSA and joined CANA. There apparently have been numerous articles on it in this area, and even some court issues regarding the church building/property, and a reverand being accused of stealing funds from the church's seminary fund and also, it seems for the poor. He is in court (ecclesiastical court, I believe) this week. Next week, they should have an answer. This rev., Rev. Armstrong, still, as far as I've read, serving at this church that is attached to the school I'm looking at sending my boys. There's also all this talk about jurisdictions and confirming a bishop in the area and the ECUSA not recognizing the splits, etc. I worry about the property dispute. What happens after the court finishes in around November on this issue and it goes in favor of the ECUSA. Can the school still continue? So, all my Anglican brothers and sisters, do you all know about these splits? I hope you can help me out. Thanks.

[Dorothea]

Nobody?? :(

[sempervirens]

Kendall Harmon and his blog Titus One Nine cover all things Anglican in depth and he's featured about a dozen articles on the situation in Colorado you are referring to in the last two months as listed by his blog's search engine.

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/

[Secundulus]

I don't have any direct information but from what I can gather.

CANA is affiliated with the conservative Church of Nigeria. So the Church you are concerned about is conservative.

The were recently affiliated with TEC, The Episcopal Church.

TEC claims the property belongs to them so in this, and many other cases, they are employing legions of lawyers to retain the property. TEC also has an enormous amount of money, so they will be difficult to fight.

TEC is doing everything in its power to discredit and destroy the Conservatives that have dared to take a stand against them.

Try this site. Someone there may be able to give a more complete and specific answer.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/index.php

[Dorothea]

Thanks you, semper and Secundulus. My heart breaks for you all going through all of this strife and separations. :( I did end up talking to the school's head today and asked her all about the articles I'd read and if the school would be ok through all this. She said it would take years...the property case and such. She said pretty much what you said, Secundulus. That the ECUSA Diocese is trying to shut down the conservative churches that have broken off. They think these churches have deviated from their teachings, but when did these teachings of homosexuals in the church and the idea that Christ didn't bodily rise from the grave, but it was merely a symbol? I agreed with the head of the school. It didn't sound very Christian at all. Being a conservative myself, I do tend to side with this breakaway church. They have been wrestling for a few years on this. It wasn't an easy decision. Obviously God doesn't like its church to split, and for all of us in Christ to be bickering and such, but she said they did what they felt was right to keep the traditions of the church. They wanted there to be a voice for this. I understood what she was saying. She said the school is ok. It's not in the lawsuit, and if they have to change buildings for the school, they have been given permission to use another building in the CO Springs area to do their teaching. I am praying for her and all my brothers and sisters in the Anglican church which are in such turmoil.

[Albion]

Hi, Dorothea.

It may all have already been said, but I'll say it this way and see if anything changes for you.

CANA (the Convocation of Anglicans in North America) is a mission district of the (Anglican) Church of Nigeria, the largest Anglican province in the world--by far--and a member of the Anglican Communion headed by the Archbishoip of Canterbury. Originally it was for Nigerians living in the USA, but now is not primarily made up of them.

While a number of "Continuing Anglican" churches exist, having broken off from The Episcopal Church, USA, none is a member of the Anglican Communion. That may or may not mean anything to the average Anglican, but some think that to be an authentic Anglican it is necessary to belong to this organization that once counted almost all the Anglicans in the world. This makes CANA an especially difficult thorn in the side of TEC which the Continuing Churches are not.

Since the homosexuality issue arose and TEC/ECUSA is being condemned for this departure from previous practice, CANA has been picking up large parishes from ECUSA coming over intact. As you noted, CANA is not a one-issue mission but is generally traditional as against the evermore liberal TEC.

Is the school part of this? I can't tell, but ECUSA has vowed to fight any parish seceeding and taking its property. Sometimes this works, and sometimes the courts side with the parish. So it is hard to project what would happen with your situation except that it is probably correct that it would take a long time. Next month, by the way, an international meeting of Anglican churches of the Anglican Communion as supposed to have a showdown with TEC over its refusal to give us those property suits, as well as retreat on the homosexual agenda.

No one knows what will happen, but the Church of Nigeria seems to have the votes to prevail, leaving you no better off if TEC is willing to leave the Anglican Communion rather than backtrack or see the Communion restructured.

[Dorothea]

Thanks, Albion. I can't imagine how all this must make you and your fellow Anglicans feel. Such turmoil, unrest, lawsuits, infighting. It must be so painful. I'm really sorry you all are going through this. I did read that there were around 77 million members of the churches that are under the Nigerian Church? I hope something good comes out of that meeting next month.

Also, you think TEC would leave the Communion? I have read the Denver Diocese has lots of money, but from what I understand, the parish of this church in Colorado Springs hasn't been getting money from the Diocese to fund their school or even their church for years.

[Secundulus]

Thanks, Albion. I can't imagine how all this must make you and your fellow Anglicans feel. Such turmoil, unrest, lawsuits, infighting. It must be so painful. I'm really sorry you all are going through this. I did read that there were around 77 million members of the churches that are under the Nigerian Church? I hope something good comes out of that meeting next month.

Also, you think TEC would leave the Communion? I have read the Denver Diocese has lots of money, but from what I understand, the parish of this church in Colorado Springs hasn't been getting money from the Diocese to fund their school or even their church for years.

Albion and I aremembers of the continuing Church. We left the Anglican Communion in 1978 because of their . . . innovations.

My personal opinion is that TEC might get removed from the communion in Sept. This is the ultimate in irony since the African Bishops are the driving force. They are the newest to the Christian faith, less than 100 years. But apparently they still have that spirit of militancy that Western Christendom seems to be lacking.

I pray that your situation with the school works out. Traditional Anglicanism, as your school appears to be, is Catholic in the ancient sense.

[Dorothea]

Albion and I aremembers of the continuing Church. We left the Anglican Communion in 1978 because of their . . . innovations.

My personal opinion is that TEC might get removed from the communion in Sept. This is the ultimate in irony since the African Bishops are the driving force. They are the newest to the Christian faith, less than 100 years. But apparently they still have that spirit of militancy that Western Christendom seems to be lacking.

I pray that your situation with the school works out. Traditional Anglicanism, as your school appears to be, is Catholic in the ancient sense.
Thank you. I do feel this school's teachings are closer to my family's faith than the protestant private schools in our area. The head said they are closer to Orthodox and Catholic than protestantism.

What does this mean if TEC is removed from communion in September? Remind me again...is TEC the Episcopal Churches in the US? Or is it just a piece of the Anglican umbrella throughout the world that is more liberal? Sorry to keep asking questions, but I am finding myself interested in this subject....unfortunately, it's not exactly a great and happy subject for you all at this time, but I really like to hear what you and others have to say on this. Thanks.

[Secundulus]

Thank you. I do feel this school's teachings are closer to my family's faith than the protestant private schools in our area. The head said they are closer to Orthodox and Catholic than protestantism.

What does this mean if TEC is removed from communion in September? Remind me again...is TEC the Episcopal Churches in the US? Or is it just a piece of the Anglican umbrella throughout the world that is more liberal? Sorry to keep asking questions, but I am finding myself interested in this subject....unfortunately, it's not exactly a great and happy subject for you all at this time, but I really like to hear what you and others have to say on this. Thanks.

TEC is just the Episcopal Church in the United States. If they are removed, and they may not be, nothing will really change. They simply will not be in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury.

The Conservative Churches are looking to form a new Communion that will remain with Canterbury. They will just receive Episcopal oversight from bishops outside TEC.

[Albion]

What does this mean if TEC is removed from communion in September? Remind me again...is TEC the Episcopal Churches in the US?

Yes. TEC=The Episcopal Church, formerly known as ECUSA, Episcopal Church in the USA. The name change in itself was thought be observers to be an indication of TEC preparing to voluntarily leave the Anglican communion and start a rival federation.

Or is it just a piece of the Anglican umbrella throughout the world that is more liberal?

It is a part of the anglican umbrella to the extent that TEC is one province of the worldwide Anglican Communion that has about 2/3 of the Anglicans in the world as members. But most of the other national churches in the Anglican Communion are more conservative. This is why the pressure on TEC to change her policies (which she is showing no signs of being willing to do) may cause her to wind up outside of the Communion.

Sorry to keep asking questions, but I am finding myself interested in this subject....unfortunately, it's not exactly a great and happy subject for you all at this time, but I really like to hear what you and others have to say on this. Thanks.

For us, meaning Secundulus and myself here, it's only a matter of interest since we belong to churches that are more conservative and not members of the Anglican Communion. They left decades ago over ECUSA's growing liberalism. We think we saw what was happening long before those who are still in ECUSA/TEC struggling over its direction and commonly called the "conservatives" were willing and/or able to see the handwriting on the wall which was evident in the 1970s and 80s.

[Simon_Templar]

Its anyone's guess as to what will happen with the TEC/ECUSA.

As far as I know there is currently no mechanism in place by which a province can be forcibly removed from the Anglican Communion, as in excommunicated. The Continuing Anglican Churches left of their own accord when they deemed that the Anglican church was pursuing cultural values above scriptural and traditional truth.

In my opinion, the likely options are as follows. Either the TEC/ECUSA will leave of its own accord and form a new more liberal communion, or the Bishops of the Global south will exert enough pressure to force the passage of some kind of excommunication, or a sizable portion of the Global south bishops will leave and form their own communion, at which point the Anglican Communion will continue at an ever quickening pace in its slide to liberalism

CANA is an arm of the Nigerian Church and as such it is part of the Anglican Communion. The Nigerian Church has allowed the use of CANA by conservative american Anglicans as a way to have episcopal oversight, and maintain a link to the Anglican Communion, without having to submit to the agenda of the TEC/ECUSA in forcing more and more liberal theology and policy on the church.

[Albion]

Its anyone's guess as to what will happen with the TEC/ECUSA.

That's right.

As far as I know there is currently no mechanism in place by which a province can be forcibly removed from the Anglican Communion, as in excommunicated.

I have the impression that there is also no mechanism any province can rely upon to prevent its being expelled.

In my opinion, the likely options are as follows. Either the TEC/ECUSA will leave of its own accord and form a new more liberal communion, or the Bishops of the Global south will exert enough pressure to force the passage of some kind of excommunication, or a sizable portion of the Global south bishops will leave and form their own communion, at which point the Anglican Communion will continue at an ever quickening pace in its slide to liberalism

I agree, and for Dorothea's interest, I think this is quite widely agreed to. Also that we should know very soon, most likely in September.

[Dorothea]

Thank you, Albion and Simon.

From what I read, it seems that CANA is one conservative group, but not the only one in the Anglican faith...that the Anglican Communion is mostly conservative. What's the difference between CANA and Continuing Anglicans. Are they just under different bishops in different areas of the world? Would TEC's leaving the Anglican Communion be best for those Anglicans that are trying to keep the traditions of their faith? But, it sounds like TEC is a pretty big part of the Anglican Communion. You said around 2/3's of it is the TEC? Do I have all this right?

[Albion]

From what I read, it seems that CANA is one conservative group, but not the only one in the Anglican faith...that the Anglican Communion is mostly conservative. What's the difference between CANA and Continuing Anglicans.

CANA is a mission district in the USA of a member province of the Anglican Communion (Nigeria). The "Continuing Anglican" churches are not members of the Anglican Communion although some of them have relations with some members, intercommunion agreements, etc. Otherwise they are similar to CANA in most things.

Would TEC's leaving the Anglican Communion be best for those Anglicans that are trying to keep the traditions of their faith?

Yes.

But, it sounds like TEC is a pretty big part of the Anglican Communion. You said around 2/3's of it is the TEC? Do I have all this right?

No.

About 2/3 of the Anglicans in the world are in the AC. Of them, TEC accounts for about 2% only.

By comparison, the Church of Nigeria which CANA is part of--not merely 'affiliated with' but an integral part of--accounts for about 23%.

[Dorothea]

CANA is a mission district in the USA of a member province of the Anglican Communion (Nigeria). The "Continuing Anglican" churches are not members of the Anglican Communion although some of them have relations with some members, intercommunion agreements, etc. Otherwise they are similar to CANA in most things.

Yes.

No.

About 2/3 of the Anglicans in the world are in the AC. Of them, TEC accounts for about 2% only.

By comparison, the Church of Nigeria which CANA is part of--not merely 'affiliated with' but an integral part of--accounts for about 23%.
ah, thank you, Albion! You've been such a great help. Bless you!