Suggestion to split the MJF

[Sephania]

Again, after reviewing many of the posts and seeing the main problems why we can't agree on things, I suggest we may have two Messianic forums. One for mainstream Messianics which represent the whole of the movement in nominal torah observance and Shabbat keeping, and the other for more hard core, Bible based, Torah keeping in an Orthodox manner forum for those who wish to talk about that lifestyle and share with others and not have to be open to constant harassment. The main forum could be for all to come and ask about Normative Messianic Judaism, and to debate the practices etc. The other would be open to Orthodox Messianics both Jew and gentile as well as Orthodox Jews to discuss Torah and halacha but not for debate on Yeshua.

What do you all think? And be precise. We could change the Halacha forum into the Orthodox one so it wouldn't be hard for Erwin to do this.

Those that are choosing 'Not sure,Need more info', please post what questions you have. :)

All those voting and posting on this thread please be sure to see this one also Should the MJF change it's name? (http://www.christianforums.com/t5811810-should-the-mjf-change-its-name.html) as they work in tandum. :)

[stone]

Wow Z your on the ball today!

Let me see if i understand this correctly. Say i have questions concerning tallits, and i am asking questions about them. Is this going to provide a safe place for me to go and talk about Tallits without being harrassed by other Messianics that may believe teaching to wear tallits is anti-christ?

[muffler dragon]

Please disregard my vote. I forgot that it wasn't my place to do so.

[Sephania]

Wow Z your on the ball today!

Let me see if i understand this correctly. Say i have questions concerning tallits, and i am asking questions about them. Is this going to provide a safe place for me to go and talk about Tallits without being harrassed by other Messianics that may believe teaching to wear tallits is anti-Christ?
Well, I've read a lot of the polls and posts and see we can't really come to a consensus on anything, maybe this is why, along with the name?

You mean in the 'Orthodox forum'? I would say yes, our rules would be more strict than the main MJ forum, only soft debate for learning purposes in the the true Jewish drash style, not hitting each other over the head with 'I know more than you' attitude' or Torah is not to be followed, or you are following it the wrong way...........
etc. That same kind of question can be asked on the main forum, but in the orthodox it would be already known that they are not against the bible or G-d or anything like that, so wearing tzitziot would not be up for debate, but maybe how to tie them, who should wear them, when to wear them, such like that. :)

[Bananna]

MD Just choose other, they can edit your vote later if they want to. I think there should always be an other so who ever has a way to see the poll results. It is not like my yahoo polls that show the results before you vote.

bananna

[Sephania]

Please disregard my vote. I forgot that it wasn't my place to do so. You can vote, this would affect you too I should think. :)

[Sephania]

MD Just choose other, they can edit your vote later if they want to. I think there should always be an other so who ever has a way to see the poll results. It is not like my yahoo polls that show the results before you vote.

bananna The poll is anonymous, and he's fine to vote, you too. :)

[Bananna]

Yah I voted for more information.

I'm not really sure. What if MJ were a subforum.

[Sephania]

Should the MJF change it's name? (http://www.christianforums.com/t5811810-should-the-mjf-change-its-name.html)

Please check out this poll and vote and comment there too. :)

[Bananna]

how do I comment in the poll?

or did you mean right here?

[christianmomof3]

I am not sure if I understand what you are proposing exactly.
I think that having a Messianic Forum with an Orthodox teachings subforum would be a good idea.
I do not think it should be a whole separate forum, but rather a subforum within the general Messianic one.

[Charles YTK]

This is something that Shimshons tried to put together a while ago. It got shot down.

In all honesty this forum is such a detriment to ones spiritual well being that it might be better to shut down completely the MJ portion of it, although I do not think any of the discussion in the other forums are very edifying either. The vision of bringing all christians (believers) together is faulted, because there are too many religionists. Unity is in God and in Messiah . Religion by its nature spawns disunity and bringing religions together in ecumenical fellowship spawns hatred. The evidence is on every forum. I say shut it all down and then find forums that are very specifically aligned to your own beliefs.

I know that many will read this and roll their eyes and sigh, however I am speaking from the heart. Go the way of insaneinthebrain and a whole gaggle of others before him. (Except the part about going to P_G's :D

[Bananna]

By this shall all men know that you are my diciples, if you have love one for another.

If you love me keep my commandments (which actually tell us how to treat one another)


The real issue is pride. Pride in our beliefs, Pride in where we are at. Pride in having arrived at truth.

The answer is getting rid of te strong hold of Pride in ourlives. Treat each as a mother, a Father a brother a sister a daughter.

I know a lot of people that pick up and leave when they don't get their way. It is not just a matter of shunning divisive behavior, or hate speach, it is truly because they refuse to respect anyone that does not think like them.

Praying for unity till it comes,
bananna

[Ivy]

Maybe I should have checked need more info--but, really, I don't know if it needs to split.

Maybe it just needs to accept itself as the rainbow it is.

[Sephania]

how do I comment in the poll?

or did you mean right here? Yes, here in the thread. :)

I am not sure if I understand what you are proposing exactly.
I think that having a Messianic Forum with an Orthodox teachings subforum would be a good idea.
I do not think it should be a whole separate forum, but rather a subforum within the general Messianic one. Well that is most likely what we will be allowed, as I said the Halacha forum could be used for this, for those who are of the minority and wish to follow Torah without repercussions, and harrassement because of it. More like a two law place, and the main MJ would be a one law, since that seems to be the majority of posters here that agree to this, or don't mind conversing and discussing, debating with those who do. :)

Maybe I should have checked need more info--but, really, I don't know if it needs to split.

Maybe it just needs to accept itself as the rainbow it is. that is what is causing the problems it's like trying to combine a Reform/Conservative and Orthodox all in one place for a picnic and expect harmony to rule! :doh:It's not going to happen, that is why the suggestions, so that most will feel comfortable in one or the other. That is not to say you can't post in both, but there will be different FSR for each one, and you would just have to abide by them. :)

[talmidim]

Save the MODs,
Split the forum!
:thumbsup:


This place is like a day care center that issues knives to the kids as they come in the door. You don't dare turn your back after reprimanding Johnny for not playing nice...
:D

[Bananna]

LOL

We do already have the ability to sub forum all the different discussions. Also without additional rules we can personally ask non observant people to not post in our own threads. Someone really needing to comment from the outside can PM or Rep someone.

Bananna

[muffler dragon]

LOL

We do already have the ability to sub forum all the different discussions. Also without additional rules we can personally ask non observant people to not post in our own threads. Someone really needing to comment from the outside can PM or Rep someone.

Bananna

That's a really good idea. If a thread is for a particular group; then just have it stated.

[Bananna]

Of course that may mean when you ask a question MD I won't be trinitarian enough to answer it...

So then you would have to remember to allow others to join the discussion pro or con.

Bananna

[ChazakEmunah]

It's not a bad idea. It will probably help to keep better track of things that way.

[Charles YTK]

Protecting what you consider to be sacred truth and scriptural foundations from anothers opinion or false teachings is not pride. Should we all be like reeds blown in the wind for the sake of fellowship and allow our beliefs to be shifted every day? You may not believe this but I only involve myself in conversations that I see as a threat to the Gospel and the Kingdom. The small stuff I do not often respond to. This is why people think I am always beating the same drum.

It is like one of those games in the archade where the fuzzy worms pop up out of the board all over the place and you have a big soft mallot and when one pops up you smack it down. This is what I do when dangerous doctrine threatens the Gospel. And it happens more often along certain lines in the MJ circle. It happens often too.

I realize that others might feel that what I am opposing is not dangerous and believe me to be the party in the wrong. That is how things are without a prophet or someone who really has authority in th eLord to descern the truth. So we fight it out. This is not pride in my opinion. It is love for what we perceive as important truths.

[muffler dragon]

Of course that may mean when you ask a question MD I won't be trinitarian enough to answer it...

I didn't think you were trinitarian at all. LOL! Btw, that's not what all of my questions/threads are about.

So then you would have to remember to allow others to join the discussion pro or con.

Bananna

I wasn't inferring a complete closure of doors. Just a matter of getting those involved who are primarily desired. Others are always welcome to comment.

[muffler dragon]

I realize that others might feel that what I am opposing is not dangerous and believe me to be the party in the wrong. That is how things are without a prophet or someone who really has authority in th eLord to descern the truth. So we fight it out. This is not pride in my opinion. It is love for what we perceive as important truths.

Point of clarification: how is the emboldened not an inference to the deficiency of other's abilities to think, opine, evaluate, investigate what is considered "truth"?

[Bananna]

Protecting what you consider to be sacred truth and scriptural foundations from anothers opinion or false teachings is not pride. Should we all be like reeds blown in the wind for the sake of fellowship and allow our beliefs to be shifted every day? ...
Reeds bend but do not break. If they break, they were not truly reeds. The chaff will be separated and you will know more truly whom you need to preach to.

Many will say on that day, "Lord, Lord..." And be very surprized when they hear, "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness"

Notice it does not meantion doctrine, it meantions actions.

Yeshua alone is judge. Many of us have discernment of spirits and some of us that do not ask God for wisdom and God reveals. There are not spiritual grandchildren.

Bananna

[Wags]

Y it's like trying to combine a Reform/Conservative and Orthodox all in one place for a picnic and expect harmony to rule! :doh:


There is a shul near us that is trying to do that - they acutally rotate every week. Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist...... gets a wee bit confusing. :)

[Wags]

For those of you that are voting to split the forum - what do you see that looking like in every day practice?

[Bananna]

It will look like a congregational split.

I will get tired of no challenges to my faith. But I'll keep on Praying just like always.

[Sephania]

There is a shul near us that is trying to do that - they acutally rotate every week. Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist...... gets a wee bit confusing. :) Just imagine if they all met at the same time! That's what I'm getting at:)


Pass me the Lobster salad please ......................












The WHAT!!!!!








:eek:








:doh:










:sick:







:swoon:

[muffler dragon]

It will look like a congregational split.

I will get tired of no challenges to my faith. But I'll keep on Praying just like always.

That's what I like to read!!! Challenge your faith daily is one of the first "mantras" I heard/read with regard to Judaism.

[Sephania]

Challenge is good but sometimes we need to be with like minded people to build us up from all the challenges, constant fighting and debating and bickering doesn't do that.

Iron may sharpen Iron but our swords shouldn't be drawn all the time, brother against brother.
JMPOV

[Tishri1]

This is something that Shimshons tried to put together a while ago. It got shot down.

not true PG gave the green light but asked us for a real good working statement of faith, even naming them and deciding the description of each forum was taking some time though.....I can tell you the back burning was on and the midnight oil was burning.....



Save the MODs,
Split the forum!
:thumbsup:


This place is like a day care center that issues knives to the kids as they come in the door. You don't dare turn your back after reprimanding Johnny for not playing nice...
:D

thanks Tal, you my gramps forever:hug::hug::hug::hug::hug:

That's a really good idea. If a thread is for a particular group; then just have it stated.good idea:thumbsup:


This is a worthy thread and maybe there is a possibility having two MJ forums

What ever you all want:thumbsup:goes

[christianmomof3]

The Lord hates division. I still think it would be better to have a sub-forum to contain possibly controversial topics than to make two separate forums.

[Sephania]

It will look like a congregational split.

I will get tired of no challenges to my faith. But I'll keep on Praying just like always.Why do you think you will have no challenges? you are Torah observant so you could post in either forum, what' s the problem? You want controversy, you will go to the main forum, you want peaceful discussion on a Torah topic, you go to the other, it's simple really.:)

[DarkNLovely]

Just from an outsiders opinion and somebody that posted here once, I really appreciated the diversity of opinions.

That being said, I have read quite a few of these posts on this thread and I have to say that ya'll can be a bit hostile. No offense or anything but it is just something I noticed. I don't think you realize how that looks to those who are not Messianic/Jewish because it's not good. If it well help you be at peace with each other I guess it can be a good thing, but again, I think that fact that you all represent different sides of this issue may still be a benefit in the sense that it gives one a well-rounded view.

[HadassahSukkot]

For those of you that are voting to split the forum - what do you see that looking like in every day practice?

IMHO, It would be two groups with a main forum, two subfora... much like we see in the SDA area...



Challenge is good but sometimes we need to be with like minded people to build us up from all the challenges, constant fighting and debating and bickering doesn't do that.

Iron may sharpen Iron but our swords shouldn't be drawn all the time, brother against brother.
JMPOV

Just from an outsiders opinion and somebody that posted here once, I really appreciated the diversity of opinions.

That being said, I have read quite a few of these posts on this thread and I have to say that ya'll can be a bit hostile. No offense or anything but it is just something I noticed. I don't think you realize how that looks to those who are not Messianic/Jewish because it's not good. If it well help you be at peace with each other I guess it can be a good thing, but again, I think that fact that you all represent different sides of this issue may still be a benefit in the sense that it gives one a well-rounded view.



What DarkNLovely has posted, is actually my viewpoint after a honeymoon away from here and coming back. My eyes and ears have about come off my face at some of what I have seen and "heard" going on here...

I think it may be a good idea (as I said when it was last proposed) to split in this manner so we have our own 'rooms' to go to when we get too heated, and so we can fellowship better in the main area and not try to maim each other in some of our more heated ''Debates''.

The confusion to those on the outside is not a good thing at all, and it is disheartening.

I see this more akin to two congregations on good terms deciding to no longer share the same facilities but to still get together for havdalah and high holydays and inbetween occasions, rather than what most evangelicals term as a "church split". (that is by far more devistating, heart wrenching, and a lot more hurtful words and deeds involved.. totally not spiritually focused on the heart of those who decide to go in two or three or more directions, than those who usually stay.)

I've been through those, and that's not what I see here on MJF, but rather the first scenario, which I have also been involved with :)

[talmidim]

The Lord hates division. I still think it would be better to have a sub-forum to contain possibly controversial topics than to make two separate forums.
Hi christianmomof3, :wave:

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Good call. Welcome home...

[Ivy]

On the other hand, Tal, your idea of saving the Mods sure has merits. :thumbsup:

But on the other hand, if posters get stressed out by a silly internet forum, maybe we need to, oh, exercise some self-control over our minds and emotions......:sorry: ??



On the other hand.....(I'm just trying to sound like that guy Tevye ;) )

[Bananna]

Why do you think you will have no challenges? you are Torah observant so you could post in either forum, what' s the problem? You want controversy, you will go to the main forum, you want peaceful discussion on a Torah topic, you go to the other, it's simple really.:)
Are we splitting or subdividing? It sounded more like a split down another line. MJ and MG. I chose other because I needed more information.
bananna

[ChavaK]

I am not sure if I understand what you are proposing exactly.
I think that having a Messianic Forum with an Orthodox teachings subforum would be a good idea.
I do not think it should be a whole separate forum, but rather a subforum within the general Messianic one.

I agree, it will keep things simple but still
accomplish the same goal.

[Bananna]

I like that idea better.

[Kalanit]

I think the entire thing ought to be reworked.

I would perhaps separate it in different subcategories.

I believe Messianic Jews ought to be able to have their own space. If you are going to divide it into "Messianic Jews" and "Messianic Gentiles" (did I read that right???) there ought to be another spot for Christians (meaning Gentile Believers outside the MJ movement) who are supportive of Israel also. There are huge differences between these various groups - An observant Messianic Jew, a Messianic Believer, a Christian Zionist, and a Hebrew Christian. They can't all be lumped into the same category. It just doesn't work.

It is my understanding that the Messianic Jewish movement exists, not to appease the Christian Religion or the Jewish Religion - but to stand as living proof that G-d's promises to Israel are still valid and in effect - that G-d has continued to preserve the reminent, that ALL Israel will see the Salvation of G-d - the Messiah of Israel... to stand as intercessors before G-d on behalf of their people - to walk out their unique calling on earth and to usher in the Kingdom of G-d in it's fullness.

I read some of these posts and wonder where the heck you guys are coming from most of the time. Is there no one here that is simply a traditional Messianic Jew? ...and yes, I believe that exists... somewhere.

[HadassahSukkot]

IMHO, if we are dividing between MJ and MG... i quit, because that has just flown in the face of everything Scripture says about one house and one tree, and one body.

We may not all have the same obligations, or mindset - but in effect we are telling people "sorry, don't need you" if we go that direction.

I don't see that as where we are going, becase I have met many "MG" as it has been put in this thread and others that are quite orthodox in their thinking and lifestyle.

[visionary]

I agree.... do we not believe that in the end there will be one nation under God... in the millinium... and it will reflect... Messianic Judaism.

[ContraMundum]

Again, after reviewing many of the posts and seeing the main problems why we can't agree on things, I suggest we may have two Messianic forums. One for mainstream Messianics which represent the whole of the movement in nominal torah observance and Shabbat keeping, and the other for more hard core, Bible based, Torah keeping in an Orthodox manner forum for those who wish to talk about that lifestyle and share with others and not have to be open to constant harassment.

Loaded question. Not a very kind insinuation behind it, I might add. One side is Bible based and the other is not? Please don't tell us that.

Both "sides" of the alleged divide consider themselves "hard core, Bible based Torah keeping in an Orthodox manner".

It's just that one side says "the Bible says such and such", and the other side says "no the Bible says such and such"...both think they are full on regarding the Bible. "Torah keeping" is a relative term- you can't rule on it here.

As it stands, people who want to discuss halacha already have a halacha sub-forum here.

What the forum needs is a debate sub-forum.

[ContraMundum]

Perhaps a "Mainstream" forum and a "One Law" forum might work. One of them will be pretty slow though. Or both.

Actually, I think splitting the forum would be a waste of time. The members should just learn to accept other points of view more readily and we'll all get more sleep. :)

[Ivy]

Both "sides" of the alleged divide consider themselves "hard core, Bible based Torah keeping in an Orthodox manner".

It's just that one side says "the Bible says such and such", and the other side says "no the Bible says such and such"...both think they are full on regarding the Bible. "Torah keeping" is a relative term- you can't rule on it here.



Agree.

[ContraMundum]

Save the MODs,
Split the forum!
:thumbsup:


This place is like a day care center that issues knives to the kids as they come in the door. You don't dare turn your back after reprimanding Johnny for not playing nice...
:D



Wow...very good observation! LOL

You outta see the backs of us mods sometime! We're like banjos- everybody picks on us.

[Ivy]

Banjos--LOL. :hug:

[ContraMundum]

Challenge is good but sometimes we need to be with like minded people to build us up from all the challenges, constant fighting and debating and bickering doesn't do that.

Church, or "Shul", or whatever your particular group wishes to call it, is good for that.

Iron may sharpen Iron but our swords shouldn't be drawn all the time, brother against brother.
JMPOV

And I agree with you 100% on that.

[Charles YTK]

Just shut it down! It will always be a knife fight in here because it is filled with religious people rather than spiritual people who are willing to set aside their ethnicity and religious backgrounds to seek the living word of God as it applies to us.

[Wags]

Just shut it down! It will always be a knife fight in here because it is filled with religious people rather than spiritual people who are willing to set aside their ethnicity and religious backgrounds to seek the living word of God as it applies to us.
If you think so little of yourself and the others than frequent this forum Charles, why do you keep coming back?

[Charles YTK]

If you think so little of yourself and the others than frequent this forum Charles, why do you keep coming back?
To defend the Gospel of Messiah and his Kingdom and the unity of the body which is constantly under assult from religionists and Ethnic warriors.

[DarkNLovely]

:sigh:

Ya'll don't need to be fighting! Doen't this look reminicent of a certain Reformation some centuries ago, and several other schisms before that? (O.K. not that drastic, but you know what I mean!) If I wanted to know more about what you believe to be true, I would be so turned off right now! Like I said, it's good to have you all in the same place as dividing may give some the impression that there is more than 1 way to be Messianic, more than one way to the fullness of Yeshua, which is not what he preached (Spirit and Truth)! Unless of course you all agree with that. I can't say that I honestly hold your same belief 100%, but I think you have a lot a truth! There are boards on here who do not have your truth and aren't having this trouble. You get my drift? Does any of what I just said make any sense? Anyway I hope for the best for ya'll! :swoon:

[christianmomof3]

:sigh:

Ya'll don't need to be fighting! Doen't this look reminicent of a certain Reformation some centuries ago, and several other schisms before that? (O.K. not that drastic, but you know what I mean!) If I wanted to know more about what you believe to be true, I would be so turned off right now! Like I said, it's good to have you all in the same place as dividing may give some the impression that there is more than 1 way to be Messianic, more than one way to the fullness of Yeshua, which is not what he preached (Spirit and Truth)! Unless of course you all agree with that. I can't say that I honestly hold your same belief 100%, but I think you have a lot a truth! There are boards on here who do not have your truth and aren't having this trouble. You get my drift? Does any of what I just said make any sense? Anyway I hope for the best for ya'll! :swoon:

:amen: It is better to be livingly wrong than to be dead right.

[Bananna]

DarkNLovely,
:hug: , this is tame discussion. If you read carefully you can see each persons spiritual gift at work. The Prophets want to divide, the Mercies want to unify, the Teachers want to recount things in an orderly and precise manner leaving some feeling attacked.

The problem is that many are anxious because they feel the head has been cut off.

Like the man made rules became head to the pharasees the man made rules we live by are clouding our judgement causing us to forget the Head of our body that bled and died for us. All of us. The good, the bad, the wolf, the Lamb.

We need to learn to look to the head individually to control the other members of the body. The Prophets must speak against idolitry, the Mercies must speak against division, The teachers must varify every fact, and the servants work tirelessly trying to sort out the mess.

So pray for all of to hear God's voice and to learn to write only what the Lord tells us.

[HadassahSukkot]

I think, if we could relegate the heated debates to a debate forum, that *might* work..

However, we have three or four different flavors of Messianic here that fit with the 4 main Messianic groups & teachings, as well as NT MJs, Orthodox Judaism and Noachides

*if* we kept things in debate and fellowship and discussion in the main forum, *that* would work... but, it is possible we have a forum for the groups that most agree, and those that are more accepting of Oral Torah and tradition.

One may be slower than the other, but it may spare us some harm in the long run, even if it is a short lived room seperation.

I liken it to sending kids to their own room to play a while before inviting the neighbors over IYKWIM.

I want unity, but right now I am unsure with all the bickering I am seeing (as I had said before when we debated this) if it will work.

I am all for the Halacha subforum, but it has recently become a debate subforum, and I don't really see it as such. I see it more like a calm midrash we should be going into, rather than a fora for debate where all state their case and then we figure out who the winner is...

Am I alone in that thought?

[christianmomof3]

I am all for the Halacha subforum, but it has recently become a debate subforum, and I don't really see it as such. I see it more like a calm midrash we should be going into, rather than a fora for debate where all state their case and then we figure out who the winner is...

Am I alone in that thought?
I agree. I think the halacha subforum should be an area to discuss those issues with no deate.
Any who wish to debate those topics can do so in a separate debate allowed forum area.

[Sephania]

It will look like a congregational split.

I will get tired of no challenges to my faith. But I'll keep on Praying just like always. No, it has to do with accomidating all the various voices being heard in all the posts we have been discussing the past weeks, we need to get things formalized and we aren't close. That is why I suggested having two forums with different FSR so everyone that comes here regularly or who has been held back, to be content.
The Lord hates division. I still think it would be better to have a sub-forum to contain possibly controversial topics than to make two separate forums. This is not division, it is two places to give a choice to the Messianics who either want to discuss all forms of Messianic Judaism or to speak without attack form any camp, about Torah. That is not a division. Those that don't want to follow Torah should not hamper those who do and viseversa.

IMHO, It would be two groups with a main forum, two subfora... much like we see in the SDA area...


EXACTLY!

I think it may be a good idea (as I said when it was last proposed) to split in this manner so we have our own 'rooms' to go to when we get too heated, and so we can fellowship better in the main area and not try to maim each other in some of our more heated ''Debates''.

The confusion to those on the outside is not a good thing at all, and it is disheartening.

I see this more akin to two congregations on good terms deciding to no longer share the same facilities but to still get together for havdalah and high holydays and inbetween occasions, rather than what most evangelicals term as a "church split". (that is by far more devistating, heart wrenching, and a lot more hurtful words and deeds involved.. totally not spiritually focused on the heart of those who decide to go in two or three or more directions, than those who usually stay.)

I've been through those, and that's not what I see here on MJF, but rather the first scenario, which I have also been involved with :) Yes, that is exactly what I saw too. We can visit each other but our observance is a bit different shall we say?

Are we splitting or subdividing? It sounded more like a split down another line. MJ and MG. I chose other because I needed more information.
bananna Bananna this kind of posting will cause division. I said NOTHING about separating Jew from Gentile so please don't even stir people up to think so.

[debi b]

bookmark - gotta run for now :wave:

[muffler dragon]

To defend the Gospel of Messiah and his Kingdom and the unity of the body which is constantly under assult from religionists and Ethnic warriors.

And, yet, this has nothing to do with "pride" or the thinking that you have the "truth" or "knowledge" that no one else has or the ability to have. Correct?

[Sephania]

First let me preface this by saying I was only trying to help. No one was giving too much direction, we need to get on with our FSR and in light of the turn of events of constant site wide rule changes which allows anyone to come in here, (please understand this part )we can not eliminate anyone from coming in our forum, Muslims, gays, atheists diests, witches, and JEW HATERS OF EVERY ILK, etc can all come in here freely. The only thing that limits them are our FSR ( forum specific rules). So to avoid making rules that would basically limit or eliminate those who have new freedoms now to converse with us, that is why I suggested these two sister forums, so that there was a less restricted area, but also still a more protected area. But it seems all I have been met with is criticism like I am trying to cause all the division and trouble here, when my heart was only to help. So be it, I leave it all for you to organize and decide. I'll come back maybe to see what happens, I wish you all well.


I think the entire thing ought to be reworked.

I would perhaps separate it in different subcategories.

I believe Messianic Jews ought to be able to have their own space. If you are going to divide it into "Messianic Jews" and "Messianic Gentiles" (did I read that right???) there ought to be another spot for Christians (meaning Gentile Believers outside the MJ movement) who are supportive of Israel also. There are huge differences between these various groups - An observant Messianic Jew, a Messianic Believer, a Christian Zionist, and a Hebrew Christian. They can't all be lumped into the same category. It just doesn't work.

It is my understanding that the Messianic Jewish movement exists, not to appease the Christian Religion or the Jewish Religion - but to stand as living proof that G-d's promises to Israel are still valid and in effect - that G-d has continued to preserve the reminent, that ALL Israel will see the Salvation of G-d - the Messiah of Israel... to stand as intercessors before G-d on behalf of their people - to walk out their unique calling on earth and to usher in the Kingdom of G-d in it's fullness.

I read some of these posts and wonder where the heck you guys are coming from most of the time. Is there no one here that is simply a traditional Messianic Jew? ...and yes, I believe that exists... somewhere.No, you didn't read it right. I would never suggest Jew and Gentile be separated, as Paul says, G-d forbid! I apologize for not being clearer in my op but I was going on 3 hours sleep yesterday.

IMHO, if we are dividing between MJ and MG... i quit, because that has just flown in the face of everything Scripture says about one house and one tree, and one body.

We may not all have the same obligations, or mindset - but in effect we are telling people "sorry, don't need you" if we go that direction.

I don't see that as where we are going, becase I have met many "MG" as it has been put in this thread and others that are quite orthodox in their thinking and lifestyle.Hadassah I should hope that you knew me better than that but I guess not.:(

Loaded question. Not a very kind insinuation behind it, I might add. One side is Bible based and the other is not? Please don't tell us that.

Both "sides" of the alleged divide consider themselves "hard core, Bible based Torah keeping in an Orthodox manner".

It's just that one side says "the Bible says such and such", and the other side says "no the Bible says such and such"...both think they are full on regarding the Bible. "Torah keeping" is a relative term- you can't rule on it here.

As it stands, people who want to discuss halacha already have a halacha sub-forum here.

What the forum needs is a debate sub-forum.There were no insinuations, you are just adding fuel to the fire, but I won't be around for you to burn any longer CM. Think what you will of me, you have been biased from the start and you even proved it, seems the name Zayit brings out the worst in you, but I forgive you, even when you called me a Nazi , brother, I still forgave you.

Perhaps a "Mainstream" forum and a "One Law" forum might work. One of them will be pretty slow though. Or both.

Actually, I think splitting the forum would be a waste of time. The members should just learn to accept other points of view more readily and we'll all get more sleep. :) It seems all you do is complain about the work you have to do in here, if it is too much ask to be removed from the forum, don't make the members constantly feel like they are a burden to you, it's not pretty. :(

:sigh:

Ya'll don't need to be fighting! Doen't this look reminicent of a certain Reformation some centuries ago, and several other schisms before that? (O.K. not that drastic, but you know what I mean!) If I wanted to know more about what you believe to be true, I would be so turned off right now! Like I said, it's good to have you all in the same place as dividing may give some the impression that there is more than 1 way to be Messianic, more than one way to the fullness of Yeshua, which is not what he preached (Spirit and Truth)! Unless of course you all agree with that. I can't say that I honestly hold your same belief 100%, but I think you have a lot a truth! There are boards on here who do not have your truth and aren't having this trouble. You get my drift? Does any of what I just said make any sense? Anyway I hope for the best for ya'll! :swoon:
Dn'L, with all respect, you really don't know what you're talking about, you don't know us or what we've gone through in the past year and past month. However I apologize that you came in here and it affected you in some way, but this really is a family discussion that involves the rest of who is on CF, it really doesn't affect us spiritually in other ways. I thank you for your love and concern. :hug:

DarkNLovely,
:hug: , this is tame discussion. If you read carefully you can see each persons spiritual gift at work. The Prophets want to divide, the Mercies want to unify, the Teachers want to recount things in an orderly and precise manner leaving some feeling attacked.

The problem is that many are anxious because they feel the head has been cut off.

Like the man made rules became head to the pharasees the man made rules we live by are clouding our judgement causing us to forget the Head of our body that bled and died for us. All of us. The good, the bad, the wolf, the Lamb.

We need to learn to look to the head individually to control the other members of the body. The Prophets must speak against idolitry, the Mercies must speak against division, The teachers must varify every fact, and the servants work tirelessly trying to sort out the mess.

So pray for all of to hear God's voice and to learn to write only what the Lord tells us.Again bananna you are the one dividing by saying such things. We are being forced to make these man-made rules. I should think the past weeks with some of the anti-Jewish posts would have let you all see a smidgen of what could happen.

You all can complain, and disagree and accuse but I see no one else doing anything to get done what is needed.

I leave you all to do this however you want, where my help isn't wanted I don't stay.

Shalom All

Oh, one other thing, this forum is currently unprotected officially, the only thing governing this forum right now is the Site wide rules, no FSR because no agreement was ever reached.

[stone]

Just imagine if they all met at the same time! That's what I'm getting at:)


Pass me the Lobster salad please ......................












The WHAT!!!!!








:eek:








:doh:










:sick:







:swoon:


wait a minute.. Are you saying that there are Messianics that don't encourage eating kosher and would actually serve something like lobster at a luncheon?

[Sephania]

wait a minute.. Are you saying that there are Messianics that don't encourage eating kosher and would actually serve something like lobster at a luncheon?

See this is how rumors get started......................:(

what you quoted and didnt quote was that I was responding to what wags had said:

Originally Posted by Wags http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37270610#post37270610)
There is a shul near us that is trying to do that - they acutally rotate every week. Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist...... gets a wee bit confusing. :)
See? these are Jewish 'denominations' or 'sects' not Messianic. And yes if they all got together for a pot luck there could be lobster or pork brought, as Reform and reconstructionists, eat like the rest of the world, that is part of their reform, Conservative are usually more careful , but only the Orthodox are truly Kosher. Conservatives for example will eat secular slaugtered meat that is on the clean list, and in regular secular restaurants, but just don't eat things like shellfish and pork menu items but are not careful about where it's cooked or what else is added, etc. This is also the majority of Messianic understanding of Kosher, but is not really biblical.

:wave:

[Kalanit]

I still think having sub forums is a good idea.

Someone coming to this forum might see : Two House, Sacred Name, One Law, Noachide, Non-Messianic Jews, Christian Zionists, Messianic Jews, & Hebrew Christians. None of these groups agree on certain points (or any points) of doctrine. Some do not want to be associated with others. It can get really confusing to an outsider... and, well, to insiders as well!

If I were doing this, I'd make a category of each group- where their specific doctrine is posted for all to see and for it to be a place they can fellowship without feeling like they need to be on the defensive all the time.

Also, I would somehow try to incorporate the idea of Commonwealth Israel - so that no one looses their cultural identity by being swallowed up by another group. ALL can spiritually identify with the Commonwealth concept- without leaving room for Replacement Theology of any sort.

[HadassahSukkot]

Hadassah I should hope that you knew me better than that but I guess not.:(


:hug:I do, I was just commenting to the comment above my own :kiss:

[stone]

See this is how rumors get started......................:(

what you quoted and didnt quote was that I was responding to what wags had said:

See? these are Jewish 'denominations' or 'sects' not Messianic. And yes if they all got together for a pot luck there could be lobster or pork brought, as Reform and reconstructionists, eat like the rest of the world, that is part of their reform, Conservative are usually more careful , but only the Orthodox are truly Kosher. Conservatives for example will eat secular slaugtered meat that is on the clean list, and in regular secular restaurants, but just don't eat things like shellfish and pork menu items but are not careful about where it's cooked or what else is added, etc. This is also the majority of Messianic understanding of Kosher, but is not really biblical.

:wave:

Thank you for the clarification. In today's society i can understand the conservatives. I'm not sure if you've ever been in poverty, but the prices of kosher food is not affordable at all.

Reform and Reconstructionist is something i've heard of in here from time to time, i find the eating habits of them... interesting and odd, given their Torah observance.

[stone]

I still think having sub forums is a good idea.

Someone coming to this forum might see : Two House, Sacred Name, One Law, Noachide, Non-Messianic Jews, Christian Zionists, Messianic Jews, & Hebrew Christians. None of these groups agree on certain points (or any points) of doctrine. Some do not want to be associated with others. It can get really confusing to an outsider... and, well, to insiders as well!

If I were doing this, I'd make a category of each group- where their specific doctrine is posted for all to see and for it to be a place they can fellowship without feeling like they need to be on the defensive all the time.

Also, I would somehow try to incorporate the idea of Commonwealth Israel - so that no one looses their cultural identity by being swallowed up by another group. ALL can spiritually identify with the Commonwealth concept- without leaving room for Replacement Theology of any sort.


I think the word split in the op title is misleading.

anyrate,

It may be a good idea, rather than have several sub-forums, which would require more approvals higher up, we could have that debate sub-forum and restrict who can debate in threads with brackets?

For example if it were two-house discussions for those of two-house you'd make this, [ two-house ] in the op title, or [ sacred name ] or [noachide].

just a thought..

[Talmidah]

Thank you for the clarification. In today's society i can understand the conservatives. I'm not sure if you've ever been in poverty, but the prices of kosher food is not affordable at all.
Perhaps if you want to eat meat every day. But you can eat very well as a vegetarian or only buying meat for Shabbat and holidays. :)

While Zayit's generalizations might be correct, in general (as generalizations usually are), I just want outsiders who are reading this to remember that there are some reform Jews who keep strictly kosher and many conservative Jews who do as well.

[muffler dragon]

While Zayit's generalizations might be correct, in general (as generalizations usually are), I just want outsiders who are reading this to remember that there are some reform Jews who keep strictly kosher and many conservative Jews who do as well.

And Reconstructionists as well. Sometimes people have to "play the hand they're dealt". Meaning: if this is what's offered in your general vacinity and you don't have to go over an hour or so to get there; then why not?

[DarkNLovely]

First let me preface this by saying I was only trying to help. No one was giving too much direction, we need to get on with our FSR and in light of the turn of events of constant site wide rule changes which allows anyone to come in here, (please understand this part )we can not eliminate anyone from coming in our forum, Muslims, gays, atheists diests, witches, and JEW HATERS OF EVERY ILK, etc can all come in here freely. The only thing that limits them are our FSR ( forum specific rules). So to avoid making rules that would basically limit or eliminate those who have new freedoms now to converse with us, that is why I suggested these two sister forums, so that there was a less restricted area, but also still a more protected area. But it seems all I have been met with is criticism like I am trying to cause all the division and trouble here, when my heart was only to help. So be it, I leave it all for you to organize and decide. I'll come back maybe to see what happens, I wish you all well.


No, you didn't read it right. I would never suggest Jew and Gentile be separated, as Paul says, G-d forbid! I apologize for not being clearer in my op but I was going on 3 hours sleep yesterday.

Hadassah I should hope that you knew me better than that but I guess not.:(

There were no insinuations, you are just adding fuel to the fire, but I won't be around for you to burn any longer CM. Think what you will of me, you have been biased from the start and you even proved it, seems the name Zayit brings out the worst in you, but I forgive you, even when you called me a Nazi , brother, I still forgave you.

It seems all you do is complain about the work you have to do in here, if it is too much ask to be removed from the forum, don't make the members constantly feel like they are a burden to you, it's not pretty. :(

Dn'L, with all respect, you really don't know what you're talking about, you don't know us or what we've gone through in the past year and past month. However I apologize that you came in here and it affected you in some way, but this really is a family discussion that involves the rest of who is on CF, it really doesn't affect us spiritually in other ways. I thank you for your love and concern. :hug:

Again bananna you are the one dividing by saying such things. We are being forced to make these man-made rules. I should think the past weeks with some of the anti-Jewish posts would have let you all see a smidgen of what could happen.

You all can complain, and disagree and accuse but I see no one else doing anything to get done what is needed.

I leave you all to do this however you want, where my help isn't wanted I don't stay.

Shalom All

Oh, one other thing, this forum is currently unprotected officially, the only thing governing this forum right now is the Site wide rules, no FSR because no agreement was ever reached.
I know exactly what I'm talking about it, and I didn't need to be here for a year or longer to see it! Like I said, if you want to split for the sake of harmony, it can be good thing. There are also benefits to you staying one board. I just wanted to tell you that they way you talk to each other looks bad. I wasn't "affected", so much as I was discouraged from getting to know you.

That all being said, I have no plans to be active on this board, to your relief and mine, I'm sure.

[Sephania]

I think the word split in the op title is misleading.

anyrate,

It may be a good idea, rather than have several sub-forums, which would require more approvals higher up, we could have that debate sub-forum and restrict who can debate in threads with brackets?

For example if it were two-house discussions for those of two-house you'd make this, [ two-house ] in the op title, or [ sacred name ] or [noachide].

just a thought..Then change the name in the title, I can't , but the question in the poll is what I was referring to, seems all have missed that.

Should there be two different Messianic Forums?

It's not about debating, why does everyone think that? It's about those who are like reformed or conservative and noachide and Christians who support Israel having a place to talk and discuss, and those who follow more of a Orthodox interpretation of the Torah can talk in peace and discussion. Each would have their own debating rules. if not then anyone else can come in and debate, that is the key everyone is missing here!

Thank you for the clarification. In today's society i can understand the conservatives. I'm not sure if you've ever been in poverty, but the prices of kosher food is not affordable at all.

Reform and Reconstructionist is something i've heard of in here from time to time, i find the eating habits of them... interesting and odd, given their Torah observance. Sorry Stone, that is a lie from hell. NOT what you said so don't jump on me, I am speaking of the lie that eating Kosher is too expensive.It is a lie of Satan a deception to make people THINK they can't so they disobey G-d. To say that ( and I have heard many give this as an excuse) is to say that what G-d gave as a commandment he made it too hard to follow. And that isn't true! and he says so himself!

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 -- "For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it.' But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

Actually it is cheaper to keep true Kosher than not. Why? First you won't be buying alot of fast food , junk, and also you won't be eating out much, especially if there are no kosher resturants in your town. That saves a bunch!

Even if you are at poverty level, beans and rice are still kosher as long as you don't add any non kosher things like pork. Many people say they can't eat Kosher because it's too expensive because they compare a kosher steak to an trief one. But what they don't figure in is the sickness you can get from that trief one, and also that you don't need to eat as much meat as the advertisers and restaurants make you think you do. A 4-6oz piece of kosher chicken or beef is the same as a 12oz or even less in most cases, and you don't need to be a glutton and eat all that anyway.

This comes from a mindset of more for your money, but at what expense?

I know many poor Jews that still eat Kosher and live just fine, why? Because G-d said it would be so, you eat as he tells you to live!

[Talmidah]

I know many poor Jews that still eat Kosher and live just fine, why? Because G-d said it would be so, you eat as he tells you to live!
:thumbsup:

[stone]

Z,

if we use the Halacha sub-forum, which is used for debateing issue's relateing to Talmud and the like, do we now begin to debate these issue's on the front page forum?

This sub-forum was created because of the aggressive debateing tactics used by some were hostile and not what we would like our visitors to be exposed to as they may be passing through our neighborhood.

Do we risk putting the forum through this trial again, or should we just create an additional sub-forum that should be used for only informative purposes and not debate?

I don't think we are going to be able to prevent anyone from debateing.

[Wags]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Zayit again.

Zayit you have poured your heart into this forum, thank you for your efforts!

[nasa1]

Sounds like this is all about decreasing the offence the gospel and the Son of G-d create for some. The gospel and the Son of G-d are supposed to create offence! All you are doing here is trying to tuck Yeshua away from people, and that is offensive to me.

If this forum will not take a stand for Yeshua, I will not stay here anymore.

nasa1

[Bananna]

I think there is a clear vote here when can we put it into effect.

Two polls show we strongly want to stay together and strongly want separate corners to go to rest.

It seems we should then be able to firm up our wiki and move on correct? We cannot please everyone.

It would seem you could easily get a vote for a more general named forum like Messianic with two sub forum of Torah observant and something other I can't think of a new name for.

I will support the majority decision whether I like it or not.
I just keep praying.

Bananna

[talmidim]

Shalom All,

Here are some facts to consider, the affordability of Kosher food aside.


Everyone that has to constantly engage in Apologetics in order to have the most basic discussion will seek a safe haven elsewhere.
Every Mod that is forced to constantly intervene in every discussion will burn out.
Every discussion that becomes a debate will never be elevated above the fray.
The lines of division are clear.


There are those that hold the Rabbis and the oral traditions as authoritative.
There are those that insist that everyone should follow all of Torah possible.
There are those that insist that Torah observance is an individual choice.Final fact: I am sooooo tired of all the political crap. Please make an Orthodox Messianic forum so the rest of us can finally get some rest.

[Wags]

Final fact: I am sooooo tired of all the political crap. Please make an Orthodox Messianic forum so the rest of us can finally get some rest.

Wow - that is just flat out rude! :sigh:

It isn't the "orthodox messianics" that are causing the unrest, it is those that refuse to let them discuss their choices and lifestyles without calling them fools and heretics.

[Bananna]

(Bananna)
Are we splitting or subdividing? It sounded more like a split down another line. MJ and MG. I chose other because I needed more information.
bananna


Bananna this kind of posting will cause division. I said NOTHING about separating Jew from Gentile so please don't even stir people up to think so.
:doh:
I'm sorry that came across as a statement
rather than a pointed question
as I said I chose other because I just was not understanding. I chose Other because I want to know where is this splitting line. I'm glad that it is not going to be split down the Jewish Gentile line which was the only answer I was really concerned about and I'm sorry the question caused more confusion because people did not read it as concern asking for clarification.

Where is the boxing corners going to be placed?
Will there be more than two?
Will people be sub forumed or different forumed?

Would it look like

Messianic
--Torah observant
--General
--Free from law
--Nicene view of God
--non Nicene view of God
--Torah + some oral law and traditions.
--Torah alone.
--Each man does what is right in their own eyes (being rediculous now...)

Or would it be

Messianic
J4J

[Bananna]

Can we start a Poll on a new forum layout.

Let people vote for as many as they would like to apply.

Messianic Forum general
--and debate
--prayer
--israel news
--Parsha discussion
--gospels dicusion (including Acts)
--witings( which would include the letters)
--prophets (including Revelations)
--others

safe corners
--orthodox
---halacha
---Talmud and writings
--j4j standard
--christian Jews
--other

[talmidim]

Wow - that is just flat out rude! :sigh:

It isn't the "orthodox messianics" that are causing the unrest, it is those that refuse to let them discuss their choices and lifestyles without calling them fools and heretics.Sorry Sis,

No need to raise your voice. It wasn't meant to be rude, just blunt. And for the record , I do not think the Orthodox style of Torah Observance is a wrong choice or lifestyle - for you. My choices may differ. And I may wish to discuss our differences sometime. But not everyday, all day, in every thread. (OK that may be an exaggeration, but you get my drift, right?)

And regardless of who you see as the culprit, the fact remains that we, Messianics and Orthodox Messianics, are CONSTANTLY practicing apologetics instead of having meaningful discussions. I want a place where I can discuss instead of debate. This place is no longer fun, peaceful or meaningful and this has to stop! We are hemorrhaging members like crazy with some of the remaining ones CELEBRATING when they leave! Now that is rude.

[ContraMundum]

No one knows what an Orthodox Messianic is. Why try to have a forum for them, unless someone figures it out?

And incidentaly, if we trace the history of reports on this forum, you might be surprised who's names come up the most often.

Let me be frank, though some of you won't like it. Candid honesty is a currency in short supply around CF lately.

Most of the "trouble" at this forum is caused by people always trying to silence someone who doesn't agree with them, often without understanding, usually without a good reason, and almost always from the same couple of people.

If they see something they don't agree with, they hit the report button- that's the real "trouble".

If a statement of parameters that properly reflected the diversity of the MJ movement was properly drawn up, then 90% of the "trouble" would dissapear overnight.

The mods got tired of dealing with tattle-tale type reporting from the same two or three people- almost always without a real violation involved- a long time ago. A properly drawn set of FSR would solve that problem, coupled with a debate subforum.

We can handle the trolls, the anti-semites, the anti-Zionists and the proselytisers easily. It's the overly sensistive members of the MJ forum that cause the most grief and needless work.

Incidentaly, it does seem weird that a Satmar couldn't post here- being an anti-Zionist Jew. Not that I want that kind of thing, I just thought I'd mention it. I like irony. Funny, eh?

[Wags]

Talmidim - Why did you single out the "orthodox"? Why single out any group and blame them? Doing so makes you just as much a part of the problem!

Contra - as Zayit said previously, if modding here is such a burden remove yourself! You are the only mod that compalins about your "job" and how tough it is, and you do it frequently and with vigor. Enough with the kvetching already!

[muffler dragon]

[Incidentaly, it does seem weird that a Satmar couldn't post here- being an anti-Zionist Jew. Not that I want that kind of thing, I just thought I'd mention it. I like irony. Funny, eh?

I realize this was a tangent, but I wanted to comment. It wasn't until I read Herman Wouk's The Hope and The Glory books that I had any clue as to how a Jew could be "anti" (opposite of pro, not necessarily antagonistic) state of Israel. I never had the slightest clue that the Jews who felt this way during the inception of Israel in 1948 felt that way for a very good reason: they thought the state of Israel was to be a work of the Messiah; not before. Now, not all anti-state of Israel Jews feel this way. Some are horrible, but there are also those of sound mind and body. I can understand this sentiment above EVEN in light of the fact that I am pro-state of Israel. Many of us preach context, and I think that is something that has to be kept in mind when discussing people groups.

Just my thought on the matter.

[Talmidah]

Talmidah - Why did you single out the "orthodox"? Why single out any group and blame them? Doing so makes you just as much a part of the problem! Wags, I am very sorry if I have offended you. My only participation (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37299204&postcount=68) in this thread was to mention that there are Jews across the spectrum who keep kosher. I'm not sure what else I accidentally implied, but I certainly apologize.

[HadassahSukkot]

I think she meant talmidim....

[Ivy]

if modding here is such a burden remove yourself!

If every mod followed that advice, there would be no mods here. Just read the staff section sometimes....modding is a big pain in the backside & these folks do it as volunteers out of love.

One way we could all make it less of a burden would be to use the Report button much more sparingly.

Ahem.

[Ivy]

Most of the "trouble" at this forum is caused by people always trying to silence someone who doesn't agree with them, often without understanding, usually without a good reason, and almost always from the same couple of people.

If they see something they don't agree with, they hit the report button- that's the real "trouble".

If a statement of parameters that properly reflected the diversity of the MJ movement was properly drawn up, then 90% of the "trouble" would dissapear overnight.



CM, I just saw your post and want to register my ENTIRE agreement with these statements. :thumbsup:

[talmidim]

I think she meant talmidim....Thanks HS, :wave: I'll take it from here.

Wags my Dear Sister, I think erhaps I have misstated my position. Allow me to try and explain. Perhaps "Orthodox" is a poor choice of terms. The vast majority of Messianics hold scripture supreme over oral tradition while allowing for contextual differences over mainstream Christianity. They also hold that Torah observance should be an individual choice. The rub starts with those that s_t termed as "halachically observant" in another thread. They are a minority among the Messianic movement. These are not my suppositions. Go and read the website of every major Messianic organization. Look at their membership numbers. My case is made there and in the nature of the conflicts that have gone on here. It is time the "halachically observant" have their own forum, separate and apart from this one. Then the rules would be easy to formulate and enforce. Then the Mods wouldn't burn out from all the disputes and conflict. Then the casual reader would not be put off at all the conflict and actually learn something about these two dogmatically divergent groups of Messianic believers.

Contra, I read what you posted above and it is not that I do not believe you or respect you. But from the perspective of the member reading the posts (and not the Mods reading the reports) this is where these conflicts center. Troublemakers aside, the rift between the "halachically observant" and those Messianics that hold scripture supreme is so basic an issue as to force conflict within the confines of a single forum. The "church tradition vs. scripture supremacy" conflict is one of the basic dividing lines between Protestantism and Catholicism. How could this conflict be any different here?

[Wags]

Wags, I am very sorry if I have offended you. My only participation (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37299204&postcount=68) in this thread was to mention that there are Jews across the spectrum who keep kosher. I'm not sure what else I accidentally implied, but I certainly apologize.
Sorry - mistyped

[ContraMundum]

Contra - as Zayit said previously, if modding here is such a burden remove yourself! You are the only mod that compalins about your "job" and how tough it is, and you do it frequently and with vigor. Enough with the kvetching already!

Around a dozen people or more (lost count) have asked me to stay, and I honour their requests and I always keep my promises and commitments.

If you think I'm the only whiner here, then you should ask yourself why so many mods have had to leave, and so few put their hands up for the job. Also, we talk to each other. Believe me, no one finds modding at MJ easy. It's a great way to make enemies when you're just trying to be fair to all.

Having said that, I think you're overstating your case, because on a number of occasions I have expressed my love for the people here and my passion for the success of the forum.

You seem to ignore or forget that.

In other words, the real reason I stay is because I love you all and I want a bright, peaceful future for all posters.

[Wags]

If every mod followed that advice, there would be no mods here. Just read the staff section sometimes....modding is a big pain in the backside & these folks do it as volunteers out of love.

One way we could all make it less of a burden would be to use the Report button much more sparingly.

Ahem.
I do read the reports section - daily since they have been opened. I find it very enlightening. There I have observed mods working reports about themselves and recommending reports be closed that are about themselves.

[Ivy]

I think when someone is a serial reporter, they lose their credibility after awhile....and they should probably expect their reports to be closed.

[ContraMundum]

Thanks HS, :wave: I'll take it from here.

Wags my Dear Sister, I think erhaps I have misstated my position. Allow me to try and explain. Perhaps "Orthodox" is a poor choice of terms. The vast majority of Messianics hold scripture supreme over oral tradition while allowing for contextual differences over mainstream Christianity. They also hold that Torah observance should be an individual choice. The rub starts with those that s_t termed as "halachically observant" in another thread. They are a minority among the Messianic movement. These are not my suppositions. Go and read the website of every major Messianic organization. Look at their membership numbers. My case is made there and in the nature of the conflicts that have gone on here. It is time the "halachically observant" have their own forum, separate and apart from this one. Then the rules would be easy to formulate and enforce. Then the Mods wouldn't burn out from all the disputes and conflict. Then the casual reader would not be put off at all the conflict and actually learn something about these two dogmatically divergent groups of Messianic believers.


Amen and Amen. :thumbsup:

Exactly what I've observed.

Contra, I read what you posted above and it is not that I do not believe you or respect you. But from the perspective of the member reading the posts (and not the Mods reading the reports) this is where these conflicts center. Troublemakers aside, the rift between the "halachically observant" and those Messianics that hold scripture supreme is so basic an issue as to force conflict within the confines of a single forum. The "church tradition vs. scripture supremacy" conflict is one of the basic dividing lines between Protestantism and Catholicism. How could this conflict be any different here?

True indeed, and I agree.

I guess my point is that until people decide what to accept as MJism for the purposes of this forum, there is no point splitting the place up- because no one really knows where they fit in the eyes of others, and people here tend to change a lot. Let's face it- hardly anyone here agrees on anything 100%. There's enough diverse theologies here for about ten forums.

[ContraMundum]

I do read the reports section - daily since they have been opened. I find it very enlightening. There I have observed mods working reports about themselves and recommending reports be closed that are about themselves.

I don't think so.

Someone "anonymous" complained about that but they were *rightly* informed that the interaction on that thread took place before the rules were enacted- so what you say is basically not true. Didn't you read that? You should have- you wouldn't want to spread false witness, would you?

[talmidim]

Amen and Amen. :thumbsup:

Exactly what I've observed.


True indeed, and I agree.

I guess my point is that until people decide what to accept as MJism for the purposes of this forum, there is no point splitting the place up- because no one really knows where they fit in the eyes of others, and people here tend to change a lot. Let's face it- hardly anyone here agrees on anything 100%. There's enough diverse theologies here for about ten forums.Too true. There are enough diverse theologies here. But there is a psychological gulf that is too great for most people when these two camps engage. When the supreme authority for confirming your dogmatic position isn't even a consideration to the other person in a debate, its like debating with two sets of rules and two sets of judges. Little gets accomplished but frustration. On the other hand, at least the "halachically observant" can argue with one of their own and entertain the hope of being understood. And the same can be said of someone debating scripture. You may not agree, but at least you can appreciate their position. But when two camps cannot agree on the basics, it becomes the classic case of using apples to argue oranges. As the Offspring song goes, Hey - man you talkin' back to me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated

Hey - man you disrespecting me?
Take him out
You gotta keep 'em separated

[simchat_torah]

and not have to be open to constant harassment.
This is what we call "leading the audience".

Considering:
A) This poll is nearly split in half:
10 for yes
9 for no

and the other poll by Tishri to keep the forum posters together, is almost 100% yes.

and....

B) This poll is leading the audience with unfair and unbalanced language...



I would then challenge the validity of the poll results in this thread. I would say that the overall feeling is that the community wants to stay intact. No one really wants to see a split besides Zayit. Had Zayit not used pursuasive and unbalanced language and let the poll do the speaking, the outcome might have been completely different. Tishri's poll was completely fair and the community nearly voted 100% to keep everyone together.

I also think the poll is useless as the following "reason" was given:
but not for debate on Yeshua. Funny thing is, no Jew here is interested in debating the messiahship of Jesus with the messianics. We're interested in speaking on Jewish topics and making friends.
Thus I would declare the poll results 100% invalid. Had the arguments presented been balanced (not 'leading the audience') and had the arguments presented been truthful, then maybe the poll results would be useful. But right now, they are split down the middle and what was presented is unfounded.



But that is my opnion.

[muffler dragon]

Funny thing is, no Jew here is interested in debating the messiahship of Jesus with the messianics. We're interested in speaking on Jewish topics and making friends.

But that is my opnion.

Note: s_t didn't mention Noachide(s).

mwahhhahhhahhhaa!!! :D

[simchat_torah]

The rub starts with those that s_t termed as "halachically observant" in another thread. Is anyone here even pushing for halachic observance???? I think not. Instead, you see oodles of people rejecting Rabbinical thought, halachic observance, and anything that is "too Jewish and not enough Christian".

No one is debating the flipside of the coin.

What I do see, however, is a lot of self-persecution. Those who do not wish to observe halachic tradition cry about being "judged" by others on the fourm... yet these 'others' don't exist. No one here, from what I have seen (and I've been around for a long time, probably longer than anyone else that is posting here now-a-days) not a single person is posting in a judgemental way towards those who do not observe halacha.

-Yafet

[simchat_torah]

Note: s_t didn't mention Noachide(s).

mwahhhahhhahhhaa!!! :Dpffft, you don't count ;)

[talmidim]

This is what we call "leading the audience".

Considering:
A) This poll is nearly split in half:
10 for yes
9 for no

* snip*

Actually the polls stands at:

10 YES
5 NO
3 UNDECIDED
1 OTHER

Talk about "Leading the audience". You should be ashamed of yourself. I for one am not deceived by the language. Perhaps you have a problem with reading comprehension. Or perhaps you know exactly what you are doing...

This poll indicates 2 to 1 in favor of a split with 15% Undecided. Go read it for yourself people...

[HadassahSukkot]

Is anyone here even pushing for halachic observance???? I think not. Instead, you see oodles of people rejecting Rabbinical thought, halachic observance, and anything that is "too Jewish and not enough Christian".

No one is debating the flipside of the coin.
mostly because those of us who are.... are either too tired of the argument and getting lambasted, or know when we are arguing with a fence post :sigh:


I get tired when I come on here. It wasn't that way before.... :(

[Talmidah]

Is anyone here even pushing for halachic observance???? I think not. Instead, you see oodles of people rejecting Rabbinical thought, halachic observance, and anything that is "too Jewish and not enough Christian".

No one is debating the flipside of the coin.

What I do see, however, is a lot of self-persecution. Those who do not wish to observe halachic tradition cry about being "judged" by others on the fourm... yet these 'others' don't exist. No one here, from what I have seen (and I've been around for a long time, probably longer than anyone else that is posting here now-a-days) not a single person is posting in a judgemental way towards those who do not observe halacha.

-Yafet

mostly because those of us who are.... are either too tired of the argument and getting lambasted, or know when we are arguing with a fence post :sigh:


I get tired when I come on here. It wasn't that way before.... :(When I first came here 3 1/2 years ago, it was different. I'm sure s_t remembers. There were all kinds of discussions. If one topic didn't interest you or didn't apply to you, you went to other threads. People did not go around criticizing each other, putting each other down. There were people who were very 'rabbinic' in outlook, others who were just beginning and learning, others who thought Torah observance was the way to go without Rabbinic tradition. Yet the forum was a pleasant place to be and you could learn a lot from different points of view. I really don't understand why it can't be like that now. We are all adults and have the freedom to participate in a particular thread or not. As long as the FSRs are being followed, why can't there be leeway as to the topics that are discussed. If someone is talking about how they wait 6 hours between dairy and meat, why should someone feel it kind or loving to tell them that is a man-made rabbinic tradition and they are legalist and not as spiritual as the one who keeps "biblically kosher"? And if someone talks about how they had a cheeseburger for lunch, why should someone else come in and tell them that they are not "really" messianic and should go to one of the "Christian" sub-forums.

C'mon everyone .... Can't we all just get along? :P

[HadassahSukkot]

When I first came here 3 1/2 years ago, it was different. I'm sure s_t remembers. There were all kinds of discussions. If one topic didn't interest you or didn't apply to you, you went to other threads. People did not go around criticizing each other, putting each other down. There were people who were very 'rabbinic' in outlook, others who were just beginning and learning, others who thought Torah observance was the way to go without Rabbinic tradition. Yet the forum was a pleasant place to be and you could learn a lot from different points of view. I really don't understand why it can't be like that now. We are all adults and have the freedom to participate in a particular thread or not. As long as the FSRs are being followed, why can't there be leeway as to the topics that are discussed. If someone is talking about how they wait 6 hours between dairy and meat, why should someone feel it kind or loving to tell them that is a man-made rabbinic tradition and they are legalist and not as spiritual as the one who keeps "biblically kosher"? And if someone talks about how they had a cheeseburger for lunch, why should someone else come in and tell them that they are not "really" messianic and should go to one of the "Christian" sub-forums.

C'mon everyone .... Can't we all just get along? :P
I am with you, and I have only been here officially one year and (4?) a few months, and I was lurking before that.

If something didn't interest me, I read it, didn't reply... moved on to another thread... now it seems to just follow everywhere.

I thought this was something people grew out of after leaving High School and College (or didn't even do to begin with)...

[debi b]

By this shall all men know that you are my diciples, if you have love one for another.

If you love me keep my commandments (which actually tell us how to treat one another)


The real issue is pride. Pride in our beliefs, Pride in where we are at. Pride in having arrived at truth.

The answer is getting rid of te strong hold of Pride in ourlives. Treat each as a mother, a Father a brother a sister a daughter.

I know a lot of people that pick up and leave when they don't get their way. It is not just a matter of shunning divisive behavior, or hate speach, it is truly because they refuse to respect anyone that does not think like them.

Praying for unity till it comes,
bananna

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bananna again.

[talmidim]

Is anyone here even pushing for halachic observance???? I think not. Instead, you see oodles of people rejecting Rabbinical thought, halachic observance, and anything that is "too Jewish and not enough Christian".

No one is debating the flipside of the coin.

What I do see, however, is a lot of self-persecution. Those who do not wish to observe halachic tradition cry about being "judged" by others on the fourm... yet these 'others' don't exist. No one here, from what I have seen (and I've been around for a long time, probably longer than anyone else that is posting here now-a-days) not a single person is posting in a judgemental way towards those who do not observe halacha.

-YafetSure thing Yafet, :wave:

First the Poll is split down the middle and now there is a debate, but only one side is participating? Oh yeah, and that just happens to be the "other" side? :D If I EVER run for public office, would you be my campaign spokesman? You've got a talent for spin!;)

[debi b]

...But on the other hand, if posters get stressed out by a silly internet forum, maybe we need to, oh, exercise some self-control over our minds and emotions......:sorry: ??...


Ya know I have been having some success at helping the local shelter dogs develope self-control :) It's not that hard....

[simchat_torah]

Talk about "Leading the audience". You should be ashamed of yourself. I for one am not deceived by the language. Perhaps you have a problem with reading comprehension. Or perhaps you know exactly what you are doing...Get over yourself. The poll is 10 to 8 then, not 9..... I miscounted by 1.

Sure thing Yafet, :wave:

First the Poll is split down the middle and now there is a debate, but only one side is participating? Oh yeah, and that just happens to be the "other" side? :D If I EVER run for public office, would you be my campaign spokesman? You've got a talent for spin!;)
And you've got a talent for unecessarily insulting people. I was off by 1 vote. Get over yourself and post with a bit more humility.

[simchat_torah]

Yet the forum was a pleasant place to be and you could learn a lot from different points of view. I really don't understand why it can't be like that now. I think the type of people who have joined lately are more interested in insults and arguing than friendship.

[debi b]

When I first came here 3 1/2 years ago, it was different. I'm sure s_t remembers. There were all kinds of discussions. If one topic didn't interest you or didn't apply to you, you went to other threads. People did not go around criticizing each other, putting each other down. There were people who were very 'rabbinic' in outlook, others who were just beginning and learning, others who thought Torah observance was the way to go without Rabbinic tradition. Yet the forum was a pleasant place to be and you could learn a lot from different points of view. I really don't understand why it can't be like that now. We are all adults and have the freedom to participate in a particular thread or not. As long as the FSRs are being followed, why can't there be leeway as to the topics that are discussed. If someone is talking about how they wait 6 hours between dairy and meat, why should someone feel it kind or loving to tell them that is a man-made rabbinic tradition and they are legalist and not as spiritual as the one who keeps "biblically kosher"? And if someone talks about how they had a cheeseburger for lunch, why should someone else come in and tell them that they are not "really" messianic and should go to one of the "Christian" sub-forums.

C'mon everyone .... Can't we all just get along? :P

Because we have religious crusaders - who can't rest unless they have the last word :doh: It is their JOB to make sure we know we are WRONG!

[talmidim]

Get over yourself. The poll is 10 to 8 then, not 9..... I miscounted by 1.

And you've got a talent for unecessarily insulting people. I was off by 1 vote. Get over yourself and post with a bit more humility.Since when does UNDECIDED and OTHER qualify as a NO vote? I humbly submit that you are misrepresenting the facts to benefit your stated position. There is a name for that.

BTW, I can stand the thought of getting over myself. I just hope I never get over the truth.

[simchat_torah]

The question was a positive action: "split the forum?" That very question is a call to action. The forum is not currently split, to split it would be a positive action. Any vote that does not reinforce a call to action is not a vote for yes... which is now 10 to 10 (perfectly split down the line right now). Thus 10 people have not voted for a yes.... or rather, 10 people have not voted to take an action.

But that is all aside from the facts.... that the Original Poster was:
a) using incorrect arguments
b) leading the audience
AND the other poll shows a strong favor towards keeping the posters together.


But... please do continue with the personal insults, it shows your true colors... and it shows just how much "truth" you have found.

[Charles YTK]

Please consider just shutting down the MJ forums and people will migrate to other Forums and boards where they fit in without contention.

The problem is that MJ is trying to become a "Religion" rather than being a grass roots movement to restore the original church, defined as pre-Romanism. And the problem with that idea is that the first church was still Temple Judaism with the added knowledge that Yeshua was the long awaited messiah. The faithful then split after the fall of temple Judaism and become divergent sects and those different sects are represented here and are by nature opposed to one another. There is no resolution for this outside of surrendering our own opinions and our conviction and living in the spirit, allowing Yeshua to lead us. Almost impossible in a Bulliten Board community.

[simchat_torah]

Charles, if you feel this way, why keep the MJ icon on your profile?

Why not change it to some other denominational sect?


*** by the way, "denomination" is not the same as "religion" as you suggest. All denominations fall under Christianity. ie: Christianity is a religion. Baptist is a denomination. ***

[Talmidah]

Why advocate shutting down this forum when there are people who are, for the most part, quite content to be here and look forward to future discussions once all this dies down?

Why don't those who dislike this forum simply wipe the dust off their feet and move on to other boards which are more to their liking?

[simchat_torah]

Why advocate shutting down this forum when there are people who are, for the most part, quite content to be here and look forward to future discussions once all this dies down? Exactly. You don't like it? Then by all means, leave. If I didn't like a forum, I wouldn't announce to the forum that they needed to shut down. Its the internet, no one forces you to stay. Moreover, many here enjoy their place. Why ruin it because you're not having a good time? Simply put, if you aren't enjoying yourself, find another forum.

[Charles YTK]

Charles, if you feel this way, why keep the MJ icon on your profile?

Why not change it to some other denominational sect?


*** by the way, "denomination" is not the same as "religion" as you suggest. All denominations fall under Christianity. ie: Christianity is a religion. Baptist is a denomination. ***
I do not believe I used the term "Denomination" as you suggest. Are you revising my post the way you were trying to do for the poll results? :scratch:

[simchat_torah]

No, you used the word "religion". You said:
The problem is that MJ is trying to become a "Religion"I am pointing out that your insistance that the MJ community here go into other subforums and dissolve this one is not a faithful representation. You see, the other subforums are DENOMINATIONS. Not religions. You would have it both ways... that:
A) MJ is a religion (or attempting to be one)
and
B) These people of another "religion" should invade other denominational subforums.

You can't have it both ways. Either MJ is a religion or it is a denomination.

In reality... MJ is a denomination of Christianity, not a seperate religion, and thus it has its own subforum.

Now, do you want to possibly add a personal insult the same as Talmidim? Or are you content with coloring me as a skewing the data?

[talmidim]

The question was a positive action: "split the forum?" That very question is a call to action. The forum is not currently split, to split it would be a positive action. Any vote that does not reinforce a call to action is not a vote for yes... which is now 10 to 10 (perfectly split down the line right now). Thus 10 people have not voted for a yes.... or rather, 10 people have not voted to take an action.

But that is all aside from the facts.... that the Original Poster was:
a) using incorrect arguments
b) leading the audience
AND the other poll shows a strong favor towards keeping the posters together.


But... please do continue with the personal insults, it shows your true colors... and it shows just how much "truth" you have found.Mine are simple observations that you are not being truthful.

We are all exposed to poll results on the news everyday. In polls an UNDECIDED is always represented as an UNDECIDED and not a NO vote. An OTHER is an OTHER, not a NO vote. To say anything else is simply untrue.

You can argue that the poll was unfair or biased for whatever reason. But you cannot change an UNDECIDED to a NO vote simply because it is not a YES vote. A duck is a bird. But not all birds are ducks. And if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, chances are its a duck.

Finally I can see how you might feel insulted, being caught not telling the truth. But I am not making observations about your character, just you actions. However the opposite isn't the case. You seem to feel free to attack me personally. I hope you can see my point.

Be Blessed

[simchat_torah]

Are you revising my post the way you were trying to do for the poll results? :scratch:I also find it rather telling that people want to continue harping on this mundane side issue rather than addressing the bulk of what I actually wrote.

[simchat_torah]

You can argue that the poll was unfair or biased for whatever reason.I did, and you (and others) are completely ignoring that. Even though it was the bulk of my post, you want to continue harping on this minor side issue of how to interpret the data. I disagree with you on how to interpret the results, but that is wholly insignificant compared to the rest of my post which is purposefully being ignored by you and Charles.

[Talmidah]

The fact remains that out of 20 votes so far, 10 people voted to split the forum.

I still don't understand why someone would call for the closure of a forum that other people enjoy.

[simchat_torah]

Finally I can see how you might feel insulted, being caught not telling the truth.No, I was insulted when you called me a slick politician among other things... but especially by the tone of your post and your choice of words. There was no kind spirit, only sly little digs into my character.... just like the en of the sentance I just quoted. Very sly of you.

I disagree with the interpretation of the results, this does not make me out to be a liar no matter how hard you try...

But please... do keep ignoring the rest of my post regarding the validity of the poll as a whole. It continues to show why you post. You're simply here to stir the pot and toss insults, not actually discuss issues at hand.

[talmidim]

*snip*


In reality... MJ is a denomination of Christianity, not a seperate religion, and thus it has its own subforum.
*snip*

And therein lies the rub, as they say:
1. The majority of Messianics contend that these is no basis for Christianity to be viewed as a separate religion from ancient Judaism.
2. The majority of Messianics consider this a movement, not a denomination of Christianity.

[simchat_torah]

The fact remains that out of 20 votes so far, 10 people voted to split the forum.

I still don't understand why someone would call for the closure of a forum that other people enjoy.Exactly. If people don't like it, they can leave. No one holds a gun to your head and forces you to stay in an internet forum ;)

But why go further and ruin other people's enjoyment is beyond me.

[Charles YTK]

Exactly. You don't like it? Then by all means, leave. If I didn't like a forum, I wouldn't announce to the forum that they needed to shut down. Its the internet, no one forces you to stay. Moreover, many here enjoy their place. Why ruin it because you're not having a good time? Simply put, if you aren't enjoying yourself, find another forum.[/color][/font][/color][/font]

Take your own advice. I recommend shutting it down because C.F. has become one of the most damaging influences to a persons spiritual life that exists on the net. This opinion is shared by others some of whom have left this forum.

I am here only to defend the Gospel of Yeshua. This is "Christian forums" which originally implied a belief or conviction that Yeshua (Jesus) was in fact the Messiah. I have no problem with non-believers like yourself or Talmidah posting. Because you have things to offer to us, (Perhaps) . But when a concerted effort is made to subvert the Gospel as it was given, I stand against it. ( I am not accusing either of you of this by the way, but there are others who have.) I remain here so that the Gospel in it's correct context is preserved in the eyes of the people. Ultimately each must choose there own path. I stand only to present the option that I am convinced is shown in the scriptures, both Tanakh and the New Covenant.

This forum has not been a place of joy for quite some time. I am not here for my enjoyment, although it is nice once in a while to have Godly fellowship on the rare occassion that it presents itself. Most of the Apostles suffered great persecution torture and death, not because it was fun for them but because they believed there was something more important than their personal enjoyment and were willing to suffer all the abuse the world and the enemy could dish out to preserve that truth. When I think of those men and women made into human torches empaled on poles along the Roman hiway for the pleasure of those who denied the truth of Messiah and his Gospel, it shames me that all I can do is fight with this keyboard and my tired hands. What an unworthly person I am to even speak the name that other died for.

[simchat_torah]

2. The majority of Messianics consider this a movement, not a denomination of Christianity.A movement within a religion is not a seperate religion, but a denomination.

There is no rub, there is desperation for you two to win an online disagreement.

[simchat_torah]

Take your own advice.What?? I'm not the one advocating people leave, go to another subforum here, or close down the forum. In fact, more than anyone else here currently on the forum, I am intimately aware of why this forum was created... I was here with Pray4Isrel when it was birthed.

[simchat_torah]

I have no problem with non-believers like yourself or Talmidah posting. Because you have things to offer to us, (Perhaps) . But when a concerted effort is made to subvert the Gospel as it was given, I stand against itTo my knowledge, Talmidah and myself (or any other Jew in recent memory on these forums) has ever tried to subvet your gospel. Like I said, this is all self-inflicted persecution by many on this forum.

[talmidim]

The fact remains that out of 20 votes so far, 10 people voted to split the forum.

I still don't understand why someone would call for the closure of a forum that other people enjoy.Hi Talmidah, :wave:

I in no way would argue that half the votes are YES votes. I just object to calling an UNDECIDED as anything other than what it is.

And I this thread is about giving the "halachically observant" their own forum, not closing this one. It does not mean that we will not be welcome in one or the other. It would simply mean that the "halachically observant" could decide on their own rules of debate and the mainstream Messianics could decide on their own set of rules. :thumbsup:

[Charles YTK]

No, you used the word "religion". You said:
I am pointing out that your insistance that the MJ community here go into other subforums and dissolve this one is not a faithful representation. You see, the other subforums are DENOMINATIONS. Not religions. You would have it both ways... that:
A) MJ is a religion (or attempting to be one)
and
B) These people of another "religion" should invade other denominational subforums.

You can't have it both ways. Either MJ is a religion or it is a denomination.

In reality... MJ is a denomination of Christianity, not a seperate religion, and thus it has its own subforum.

Now, do you want to possibly add a personal insult the same as Talmidim? Or are you content with coloring me as a skewing the data?
You completely misunderstand me. I do not see us being integrated into other denominations of Christian forums. We are separate and different and have no place here in "Christian forums". We should not have a Forum called MJ at all. We are not part of their religious system, or at least should not be. I was saying that we should remove ourselves from the lists of CF and find places outside of CF for fellowship.

This forum is like a fart in a train load of manure. We are nothing. And the recent divisions within MJ as it tries to define itself makes us worse than that such that we are not even a good witness to others. The word of God in it's Hebraic context is not even welcome here in CF. And now there is an urgent movement to make all those who walk in the truth become Rabbinicals. I am not going that way and will caution other not to as well.

None of this matters! It is what we do with our daily lives that counts. How do we live, in our families, our communitied, in relationship to our neighbors?

[talmidim]

*snip*

Like I said, this is all self-inflicted persecution by many on this forum.That's what it is s_t. :doh:We are persecuting and arguing with ourselves. Why didn't I think of that before? Riiiiiiiiight... :cool:

[simchat_torah]

You completely misunderstand me. I do not see us being integrated into other denominations of Christian forums. We are separate and different and have no place here in "Christian forums". We should not have a Forum called MJ at all. We are not part of their religious system, or at least should not be. I was saying that we should remove ourselves from the lists of CF and find places outside of CF for fellowship.
In which case I think I agree with you. I simply disagreed with your previous statement of filtering down through the other subforums.

[Talmidah]

And I this thread is about giving the "halachically observant" their own forum, not closing this one. It does not mean that we will not be welcome in one or the other. It would simply mean that the "halachically observant" could decide on their own rules of debate and the mainstream Messianics could decide on their own set of rules. :thumbsup:Oh I totally understand that and can see good points on both sides of the issue. I was only speaking to proposition made a few posts ago that the entire MJ forum should be closed and people should find other forums or boards to which they should go. :)

[Charles YTK]

To my knowledge, Talmidah and myself (or any other Jew in recent memory on these forums) has ever tried to subvet your gospel. Like I said, this is all self-inflicted persecution by many on this forum.
Another revision? What I said was:

I have no problem with non-believers like yourself or Talmidah posting. Because you have things to offer to us, (Perhaps) . But when a concerted effort is made to subvert the Gospel as it was given, I stand against it. ( I am not accusing either of you of this by the way, but there are others who have.)

[talmidim]

Oh I totally understand that and can see good points on both sides of the issue. I was only speaking to proposition made a few posts ago that the entire MJ forum should be closed and people should find other forums or boards to which they should go. :)Ah!

[Charles YTK]

I never said we should filter down through other subforums. I said we should be shut down removed, exit vamboose go to other boards. Can't you get it? We do not belong here in CF.

So quit trying to misquote me.

[simchat_torah]

That's what it is s_t. :doh:We are persecuting and arguing with ourselves. Why didn't I think of that before? Riiiiiiiiight... :cool:
It happens left and right... i don't see a single jew here denouncing jesus or persecuting