Is there a problem with aggression in fundamentalist Christianity?

[JoeWill]

Hello,

Sorry to seem as though I am tarring lots of people with the same brush; it is not my intention to cause offence. I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation.

Over here in Great Britain, fundamentalist Christians and particularly American fundamentalist Christians are perceived as displaying agression and hostility towards competing value orientations and belief systems. When I attended university, many students saw fundamentalist Christians as people who were "not very nice".

Influenced by hard-hitting fundamentalist literature, I began to slam comments by lecturers and students that challenged the Bible. I soon found that this form of witness could be off-putting to people who cannot yet see the truth of the Bible. I needed to soften my answers somewhat.

During a one week placement at a Liberal Jewish college, I felt that the church was ill-equipped to witness to these Jewish students who showed great learning coupled with gentility and humility of spirit. I felt that liberal Christians had the sensitivity needed to communicate with these people, but might lack the knowledge base to demonstrate how the Old Testament prophecies point to the person of Jesus Christ. Fundamentalists on the other hand, had the necessary Bible knowledge but might be too loud and brash to be effective.

My fellow students of religion attended a discussion at a Baptist church entitled "Do all religions lead to God?" When the Baptists talked about how Hindus believe in many gods, the students corrected them, pointing out that there are many strains of Hinduism and not all believe in gods. The Baptists just kept on insisting that all Hindus believe in many gods, and the students left feeling disgusted at them.

My degree in comparative religion took the "hard edge" off my fundamentalism, by way of listening to people and learning to see from the other person's perspective. But I notice in other fundamentalists a shallow way of thinking that I once had. Members of my Christian street team proclaim with a loud, terse statement that the Allah of Islam is not a God of love (actually a common misconception) based on some flimsy, inaccurate leaflet that they once read.

There seem to be lots of examples of extremes of aggression in fundamentalist Christianity. I listened to an American group (see Westboro Baptist Church on the net) who believe that God hates gays on a British show. Apparently God also "hates" America, Sweden, the Roman Catholic Church etc. When a clergyman said that God loves everyone ("For God so loved the world...") he was told that he was a liar, apparently based on the Bible verse which says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau.

My pastor always says that Jesus was not agressive in his ministry. However, there do seem to be some examples of Jesus showing the religious authorities where they were wrong in no uncertain terms. Similar examples occur in I John, where John labels herectics as "liars" and "sons of the Devil". And so on.

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?

[NewGuy101]

You are right you are bunching way to many people into one whole. That fact is that fundamentalist are as diverse as any other group of invidiuals. Just have a talk within individuals in the fundie forum or in this forum who don't differ very much with fundies in the first place. I myself am a fundie, but and although I strongly encourage Christ as Lord I in no way wish to shove my beliefs on people. I know that God is in control and he saves through his grace not my will.

Also we have to take into account that the liberal media portrais the "religious right" has nutcase biggots.

[BrBob]

Yup!!!!!!

I am a charismatic christian and I've observed the same thing among our groups. I think it boils down to an insecurity about what they believe and so people go on the offensive as a way of defeating "enemies" that haven't even shown up yet. That tends to lead toward an attitude that can come across as brash or offensive.

It's interesting that you brought this up because I have been thinking about this same topic for quite a while. It's amazing how even those who are seemingly very secure in their faith can get offensive. Maybe it becomes a habit?

My mother-in-law once told me "Robert, you'd rather be right than president!" You know, she is right. The problem is though that insisting on being seen as 'right' can be a symptom of being unsure about yourself. Those who are truly secure in themselves and their faith can allow others some grace. That's the amazing thing about God. He is omnicient yet he gives us the grace to be wrong and gently leads us to the truth.

We need to be more like Him!

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

[JoeWill]

You are right you are bunching way to many people into one whole. That fact is that fundamentalist are as diverse as any other group of invidiuals. Just have a talk within individuals in the fundie forum or in this forum who don't differ very much with fundies in the first place. I myself am a fundie, but and although I strongly encourage Christ as Lord I in no way wish to shove my beliefs on people. I know that God is in control and he saves through his grace not my will.

Also we have to take into account that the liberal media portrais the "religious right" has nutcase biggots.
Yes, not all "fundies" are the same. But could it be that agression within fundamentalist Christianity is pervasive, with similarities to the Evangelical and Pentecostal Movements that have broadly influenced churches in Britain?

[JoeWill]

Yup!!!!!!

I am a charismatic christian and I've observed the same thing among our groups. I think it boils down to an insecurity about what they believe and so people go on the offensive as a way of defeating "enemies" that haven't even shown up yet. That tends to lead toward an attitude that can come across as brash or offensive.

It's interesting that you brought this up because I have been thinking about this same topic for quite a while. It's amazing how even those who are seemingly very secure in their faith can get offensive. Maybe it becomes a habit?

My mother-in-law once told me "Robert, you'd rather be right than president!" You know, she is right. The problem is though that insisting on being seen as 'right' can be a symptom of being unsure about yourself. Those who are truly secure in themselves and their faith can allow others some grace. That's the amazing thing about God. He is omnicient yet he gives us the grace to be wrong and gently leads us to the truth.

We need to be more like Him!

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD
Thankyou. I think another answer is that people often confuse arrogance with faith. For example, they may think they are exhibiting strong faith by insisting that another church is in the wrong, whereas the reality is that they are too hard-headed to conceive that the other group might be right.

A woman at a prayer group once pointed this out, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I see it more and more now though.

[IamRedeemed]

You are right, you are painting with a wide brush. Remember, Jesus wasn't effective at witnessing to the Jews either and to anyone else who had their ears shut, their necks stiffened and their backs arched.
Jesus made some pretty harsh statements as you noticed, and some of the things were blatant and easy to understand, while others, just as bold, we tucked away in parables. Paul also had harsh rebuke when it was due.
To those within or claimed to be within.

By the sensitivity of the Holy Spirit, it is important to discern the spirits.
There are unbelievers, and then there are mockers, scoffers, false teachers, false prophets
and apostates.

Jesus gave mercy and compassion where it was due, and on the same token, He also gave harsh rebuke where it was due. But He was by no means liberal. Liberal is not equivalent to Liberty and should not be equated as such.
Liberal is the literal abuse of Liberty, and adversely affects ALL people.




Hello,

Sorry to seem as though I am tarring lots of people with the same brush; it is not my intention to cause offence. I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation.

Over here in Great Britain, fundamentalist Christians and particularly American fundamentalist Christians are perceived as displaying agression and hostility towards competing value orientations and belief systems. When I attended university, many students saw fundamentalist Christians as people who were "not very nice".

Influenced by hard-hitting fundamentalist literature, I began to slam comments by lecturers and students that challenged the Bible. I soon found that this form of witness could be off-putting to people who cannot yet see the truth of the Bible. I needed to soften my answers somewhat.

During a one week placement at a Liberal Jewish college, I felt that the church was ill-equipped to witness to these Jewish students who showed great learning coupled with gentility and humility of spirit. I felt that liberal Christians had the sensitivity needed to communicate with these people, but might lack the knowledge base to demonstrate how the Old Testament prophecies point to the person of Jesus Christ. Fundamentalists on the other hand, had the necessary Bible knowledge but might be too loud and brash to be effective.

My fellow students of religion attended a discussion at a Baptist church entitled "Do all religions lead to God?" When the Baptists talked about how Hindus believe in many gods, the students corrected them, pointing out that there are many strains of Hinduism and not all believe in gods. The Baptists just kept on insisting that all Hindus believe in many gods, and the students left feeling disgusted at them.

My degree in comparative religion took the "hard edge" off my fundamentalism, by way of listening to people and learning to see from the other person's perspective. But I notice in other fundamentalists a shallow way of thinking that I once had. Members of my Christian street team proclaim with a loud, terse statement that the Allah of Islam is not a God of love (actually a common misconception) based on some flimsy, inaccurate leaflet that they once read.

There seem to be lots of examples of extremes of aggression in fundamentalist Christianity. I listened to an American group (see Westboro Baptist Church on the net) who believe that God hates gays on a British show. Apparently God also "hates" America, Sweden, the Roman Catholic Church etc. When a clergyman said that God loves everyone ("For God so loved the world...") he was told that he was a liar, apparently based on the Bible verse which says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau.

My pastor always says that Jesus was not agressive in his ministry. However, there do seem to be some examples of Jesus showing the religious authorities where they were wrong in no uncertain terms. Similar examples occur in I John, where John labels herectics as "liars" and "sons of the Devil". And so on.

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?
Yes, they have been described as "militant" in this forum. Though I would agree that we should be careful not to lump all fundamentalists together. Just like we can't say all conservatives are the same...

Yup!!!!!!

I am a charismatic christian and I've observed the same thing among our groups. I think it boils down to an insecurity about what they believe and so people go on the offensive as a way of defeating "enemies" that haven't even shown up yet. That tends to lead toward an attitude that can come across as brash or offensive.

It's interesting that you brought this up because I have been thinking about this same topic for quite a while. It's amazing how even those who are seemingly very secure in their faith can get offensive. Maybe it becomes a habit?

My mother-in-law once told me "Robert, you'd rather be right than president!" You know, she is right. The problem is though that insisting on being seen as 'right' can be a symptom of being unsure about yourself. Those who are truly secure in themselves and their faith can allow others some grace. That's the amazing thing about God. He is omnicient yet he gives us the grace to be wrong and gently leads us to the truth.

We need to be more like Him!

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

Well said Bob...:thumbsup: I agree with you too. We like to be right, and hate to be proven wrong. I think alot of that is due to our pride. Perhaps it's the way we were brought up or our societal views today.



Thankyou. I think another answer is that people often confuse arrogance with faith. For example, they may think they are exhibiting strong faith by insisting that another church is in the wrong, whereas the reality is that they are too hard-headed to conceive that the other group might be right.

A woman at a prayer group once pointed this out, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I see it more and more now though.

Another good point...:) You guys are hitting the nail on the head!

[IamRedeemed]

While on the same token others confuse Biblical confidence with arrogance.


Thankyou. I think another answer is that people often confuse arrogance with faith. For example, they may think they are exhibiting strong faith by insisting that another church is in the wrong, whereas the reality is that they are too hard-headed to conceive that the other group might be right.

A woman at a prayer group once pointed this out, but I didn't think much of it at the time. I see it more and more now though.

[IamRedeemed]

None of us are "right" unless we are on the side of Him who is right, when we are in alignment with His Word and not our own thoughts, or what we think is right......or what the world thinks is and even then, it is still not our own "rightness" but His, that we have chosen to align ourselves with because His truth is absolute and ours is not.

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkens unto counsel is wise. Proverbs 12:15

There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12

The foolishness of man perverts his way: and his heart frets against the Lord. Proverbs 19:3

A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiastes 10:2


Yup!!!!!!

I am a charismatic christian and I've observed the same thing among our groups. I think it boils down to an insecurity about what they believe and so people go on the offensive as a way of defeating "enemies" that haven't even shown up yet. That tends to lead toward an attitude that can come across as brash or offensive.

It's interesting that you brought this up because I have been thinking about this same topic for quite a while. It's amazing how even those who are seemingly very secure in their faith can get offensive. Maybe it becomes a habit?

My mother-in-law once told me "Robert, you'd rather be right than president!" You know, she is right. The problem is though that insisting on being seen as 'right' can be a symptom of being unsure about yourself. Those who are truly secure in themselves and their faith can allow others some grace. That's the amazing thing about God. He is omnicient yet he gives us the grace to be wrong and gently leads us to the truth.

We need to be more like Him!

God Bless
Bob
Spearfish, SD

[Sothron]

As much as I disagree with some fundamentalists who put whole groups into one box we have to be careful of doing the same. I know several fundamentalist Christians who are considerate and open to others while still holding their fundamentalist beliefs.

[NewGuy101]

Yes, not all "fundies" are the same. But could it be that agression within fundamentalist Christianity is pervasive, with similarities to the Evangelical and Pentecostal Movements that have broadly influenced churches in Britain?
I personally don't know any fundies that are aggressive. I only see misconceptions in the media.

[JoeWill]

You are right, you are painting with a wide brush. Remember, Jesus wasn't effective at witnessing to the Jews either and to anyone else who had their ears shut, their necks stiffened and their backs arched.
Jesus made some pretty harsh statements as you noticed, and some of the things were blatant and easy to understand, while others, just as bold, we tucked away in parables. Paul also had harsh rebuke when it was due.
To those within or claimed to be within.

By the sensitivity of the Holy Spirit, it is important to discern the spirits.
There are unbelievers, and then there are mockers, scoffers, false teachers, false prophets
and apostates.

Jesus gave mercy and compassion where it was due, and on the same token, He also gave harsh rebuke where it was due. But He was by no means liberal. Liberal is not equivalent to Liberty and should not be equated as such.
Liberal is the literal abuse of Liberty, and adversely affects ALL people.


Okay, I am still learning how this system works, so I hope I am doing it right.

You say that Jesus was not effective at witnessing to the Jewish people, but of course this is not entirely accurate. His early followers were Jews.

No one is saying that Jesus was liberal, but there is a likelihood that aggression was not his more common method of witness. Isaiah prophesied that the voice of Jesus would not be heard in the street. I do not infer from this, as some do, that Jesus never preached in the streets. But I do take it as figurative language that describes his gentle nature, thus mitigating a constant tendency towards what I call "sledgehammer Christianity".

I agree that Paul had a sharp rebuke when it was due, but Paul also saw the need to modify his approach according to people's needs. This is why he wrote that to the Greeks he acted as a Greek, and to the Jews he acted as a Jew. Many people are put off by aggressive Christianity and so need a different approach, just as Paul modified his witness to Greeks and Jews.

Anyway, we seem to be agreeing that Jesus and Paul were only occasionally "forceful"(?), whereas the problem with the particular brand of fundamentalism I have in mind, is that it seems unrelentingly aggressive.

I agree that not all fundamentalists are agressive, but I believe that agression within Christian fundamentalism is a serious matter. Obviously then, this involves envisaging a subsection of people with common attributes.

By the way, I had a divine appointment with Jewish students at the college, and it was effective because I was tactful and sensitive towards them.

[Rochir]

All you nheed is this ...

http://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gif http://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gifhttp://www.siegetheday.org/misc/smileys/hug.gif

[£amb]

I personally don't know any fundies that are aggressive. I only see misconceptions in the media.

This is the problem I see as well. The media takes only a small group of people and puts them on display then everyone else gets the impression that we're all like that.

[NewGuy101]

This is the problem I see as well. The media takes only a small group of people and puts them on display then everyone else gets the impression that we're all like that.
I'm still wondering why in the news I see so much about the "religious right" but they seem to forget the religious left and their hypocracy.

[JoeWill]

None of us are "right" unless we are on the side of Him who is right, when we are in alignment with His Word and not our own thoughts, or what we think is right......or what the world thinks is and even then, it is still not our own "rightness" but His, that we have chosen to align ourselves with because His truth is absolute and ours is not.

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkens unto counsel is wise. Proverbs 12:15

There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12

The foolishness of man perverts his way: and his heart frets against the Lord. Proverbs 19:3

A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. Ecclesiastes 10:2

I think this does rather take a theme of the discussion out of context. We can be right in that we are on the side of God, but intellectually right or wrong over the correct interpretation of a scripture. Even Peter admitted that some of Paul's letters were difficult to understand, giving scope to those who would claim that we cannot be in alignment with God's word over every small detail. No one gets everything right.

You quote the parable about the foolish man who built his house upon the rock and saw it demolished by a storm. Is the storm meant to be life's tribulations, the day of judgement, or both?

Two Christians could disagree over the correct interpretation of the parable with one assuming that the other must be wrong. Unless God had revealed to him or her the correct meaning of the verse, that person would be displaying arrogance and not faith. I think this is sometimes a problem within Christianity.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

I think anytime we get into a debate or have cause to state our point of view we should learn to actually listen and hear what the other has to say...and not dismiss them as if their opinion doesn't matter. When it gets to that point you've lost the person your trying to witness to.

[BrBob]

Thanks lady trekki

Bob
Spearfish, SD

[JoeWill]

I think anytime we get into a debate or have cause to state our point of view we should learn to actually listen and hear what the other has to say...and not dismiss them as if their opinion doesn't matter. When it gets to that point you've lost the person your trying to witness to.
What do you think about the use of "force" in proclaiming the Christian message? The fundamentalist author Dave Hunt (In Defence of the Faith) makes no bones about his view of Islam. He informs his readers that Allah is really a moon god borrowed from pagan customs that predate Islam.

It may be important for some seekers of the truth to read this, but it is also deeply offensive to Muslims and would most likely cause them to close their ears to the rest of his Christian witness.

Should Christians make this point?

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

What do you think about the use of "force" in proclaiming the Christian message? The fundamentalist author Dave Hunt (In Defence of the Faith) makes no bones about his view of Islam. He informs his readers that Allah is really a moon god borrowed from pagan customs that predate Islam.

It may be important for some seekers of the truth to read this, but it is also deeply offensive to Muslims and would most likely cause them to close their ears to the rest of his Christian witness.

Should Christians make this point?
Well, I don't think that's how the Bible tells us to do it. :) And more importantly, I don't think that's how Jesus would do it. I mean...take a look at His ministry here on earth. The Jews expected their Messiah to come as a warrior ready to wage war. Instead, Jesus spoke to the people with love and compassion. With the exception of the time he drove out the traders in the temple of course. I agree that we should not compromise the truth of the Word of God. Jesus was not showing tolerance, but love.

In regards to "In Defense of the Faith"...I don't have a problem with the author speaking the truth in his book. I would assume he's done his research and has some kind of proof for his claims. I would suggest that if Muslim people see that book and read it, they shouldn't be surprised or offended at what's in it. It's just like you and I going to the book store...do you purchase a book you don't think you'd like or agree with? I don't.

[Voegelin]

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?

No

[IamRedeemed]

Not sure I understand what you mean by the system, unless you are talking about the "quoting" function, and if so, I hear you! I just learned a new trick the other day but still cannot figure out some of it....

Yes, in the absence of grace for understanding what I was saying as whole, I should have been extremely specific, not realizing that basic knowledge would have been thought to be in question. Of course we know some Jews were converted, we all know the Disciples and early followers were all Jewish, Paul was the only Apostle called to the Gentiles. He made disciples and built the gentile Church. Jews were saved along the way right into the present. But as a whole, we also know that the Jewish people were not, and still are not, and Jesus could do no mighty work in His own home town, as the Bible says.

Actually, there are many that claim that Jesus was a liberal. I believe that the term"aggression" or "aggressive" can be subjective. Fred Phelps.... I believe we can all agree is aggressive, and His methods are completely unBiblical and truly does not come by way of inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Being tenacious toward false doctrines and deception, false teachers, heretics and blasphemers who claim to be "in Christ" in a forum however is subjective as to whether one is being aggressive or not.

Jesus did preach in open fields and hillsides though, as well as in homes of people.

Everyone in the forum has decided they want to discuss these issues, no one is showing up in anyone's driveways or at their funerals preaching.

Jesus was very tenacious regarding mockers, false teachers, hypocrites etc.

Remember, He came as the Lamb, the Sacrifice when He came as a man, but when He returns, it will be a far contrast. We are to teach, preach and consult the whole counsel of God. Jesus is coming, the Great Tribulation is coming and there is a great sense of urgency.

Evangelize: To Preach

Synonyms: deliver, deliver sermon, evangelize, exhort, give sermon, homilize, inform, minister, mission, missionary, orate, prophesy, pulpiteer, sermonize, talk, teach

Exhort:
1. to urge, advise, or caution earnestly; admonish urgently.
2. to give urgent advice, recommendations, or warnings.

Synonyms: encourage, spur, press, goad


Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:34-38

The Word of God does not unite Spirit and flesh, it divides it. Therefore, if we speak it, those that are operating in the Spirit will hear it and be glad, those that are operating in the flesh will be offended, angry and accuse the messengers of it of hate vs love.

Paul used what I spoke of before, discernment by the Holy Spirit as to who He was talking to, whether they were believers, unbelievers, scoffers, mockers, blasphemers, apostates etc. That is exactly what I said in my post. You will see that the Greeks, for instance in which you are referring to which comes from Romans chapter 11, when Paul was done appealing to them, the wheat was separated from the chaff, right away. As some began mocking, others said they would think about it, and a few received it and followed after Him. The same happened with the Jews.
The Word of God accomplishes that which it is sent to do, and it is applied as you again discern who you are speaking to. The Word speaks of some who we know are lost as swine and dogs and there is a good reason for it, and what does He tell us to do when we encounter them?
Do not give them Kingdom things. They will only turn and bite you, as they hate the light of the Word. I am personally guilty of beating dead horses. Or at least I was. (Matthew 7:6) The Holy Spirit has recently been dealing with me on that, and I have to learn when to turn people over to the their desires, because if a person wants to run back into a burning building, you can't stop them, you have to let them go.

If you are liked by everyone, trust me, when I tell you this, you are doing something wrong. There is no way that we can succeed where our master failed, unless we dispose of most of the Word of God and only speak of the smiley feel good things and become motivational speakers, rather than preachers and true Disciples. And even then, we haven't succeeded where our master failed, but have merely deceived ourselves, and have done a great disservice to the Lord, as well as to anyone within the sound of our voice.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 1 Timothy 4:2-5

I am happy about your meeting, and how well it went. Be sure to give God the glory and thank Him for the wisdom and discernment He gave you for the message!






Okay, I am still learning how this system works, so I hope I am doing it right.

You say that Jesus was not effective at witnessing to the Jewish people, but of course this is not entirely accurate. His early followers were Jews.

No one is saying that Jesus was liberal, but there is a likelihood that aggression was not his more common method of witness. Isaiah prophesied that the voice of Jesus would not be heard in the street. I do not infer from this, as some do, that Jesus never preached in the streets. But I do take it as figurative language that describes his gentle nature, thus mitigating a constant tendency towards what I call "sledgehammer Christianity".

I agree that Paul had a sharp rebuke when it was due, but Paul also saw the need to modify his approach according to people's needs. This is why he wrote that to the Greeks he acted as a Greek, and to the Jews he acted as a Jew. Many people are put off by aggressive Christianity and so need a different approach, just as Paul modified his witness to Greeks and Jews.

Anyway, we seem to be agreeing that Jesus and Paul were only occasionally "forceful"(?), whereas the problem with the particular brand of fundamentalism I have in mind, is that it seems unrelentingly aggressive.

I agree that not all fundamentalists are agressive, but I believe that agression within Christian fundamentalism is a serious matter. Obviously then, this involves envisaging a subsection of people with common attributes.

By the way, I had a divine appointment with Jewish students at the college, and it was effective because I was tactful and sensitive towards them.

[IamRedeemed]

Well, the Liberal media has to look after their own agenda right? Objectivity,
and the truth are not part of that agenda and is quite evident.


I'm still wondering why in the news I see so much about the "religious right" but they seem to forget the religious left and their hypocracy.

[IamRedeemed]

You are answering my signature. It is not a parable I quoted in a post here. Please note it is at the bottom of all of my posts. ;)

I agree, that in context interpretation is imperative.
We should refrain from preaching on subjects we are unsure about, and should look to the Holy Spirit to increase our understanding and be careful not to add to Scripture what isn't there, or evident in the surrounding text or the history of the situation being discussed in the Word. :thumbsup:


I think this does rather take a theme of the discussion out of context. We can be right in that we are on the side of God, but intellectually right or wrong over the correct interpretation of a scripture. Even Peter admitted that some of Paul's letters were difficult to understand, giving scope to those who would claim that we cannot be in alignment with God's word over every small detail. No one gets everything right.

You quote the parable about the foolish man who built his house upon the rock and saw it demolished by a storm. Is the storm meant to be life's tribulations, the day of judgement, or both?

Two Christians could disagree over the correct interpretation of the parable with one assuming that the other must be wrong. Unless God had revealed to him or her the correct meaning of the verse, that person would be displaying arrogance and not faith. I think this is sometimes a problem within Christianity.

[twistedsketch]

Westboro Baptist isn't even typical of American fundamentalists, and that's saying a lot.

Still, I think there is a problem with it to some extent. There's a girl I know who found herself in a fundamentalist church, and showed me a little draft of a paper she took upon herself to write in defense of young earth creationism. Doing that is fine and all, but she had so many cheap shots about the intelligence of people who don't believe it in parentheses - and this was only the first couple of pages. If we Christians have the truth (and we do), then we certainly don't need cheap shots like that. If the truth offends people, fine - just make sure it's the truth that's offending them and not your character.

[JoeWill]

I agree with much of what you say IamRedeemed, but you gave little attention to the fact that Christians can be counter-productive in God's Kingdom by being inappropriately agressive.

You mention that Paul used the guiding ministry of the Holy Spirit to help him know to whom he was speaking and what ought to be said. True enough, but I think that one of the questions posed by this thread is whether many fundamentalist Christians try to advance a Christian message in an agressive manner of which the Holy Spirit would not approve.

I see evidences that they do. For example:

1. Use of dishonesty. Christian fundamentalist literature and videos often attack a belief system, but withold information that their opponents would present in their defence. The Creationist video A Question of Origins for instance, demonstrates why the famous Miller experiment fails to prove that the protein building blocks of life could have formed without the need for a Creator. This is then used to ridicule evolutionary beliefs. What is witheld is the fact that evolutionists do not believe that life formed in this way, but posit different models for the origins of life. (Incidentally, I am a creationist.)

2. Contradictions of God's word. For example, Westboro Baptist Church proclaims that God hates gays, America etc. But in John's Gospel we are told that "God so loved the world..." Note that "the world" in John's Gospel refers to those who are unsaved.

The verse relating to the Greeks and the Jews that I referrred to, comes from I Corinthians 9. Paul is saying that he adopts the manner of a Greek or a Jew, depending upon whether he is witnessing to Greeks or Jews. He modifies his style according to people's needs. Similarly, it is necessary for us to realise that many people are put off by agressive preaching, and would be better suited to a different style of witness.

I know from my own experience of working on a Christian street team that the Holy Spirit does not always show us exactly how to be. Sometimes he relies on us using a bit of wisdom too.

[Voegelin]

There's a girl I know who found herself in a fundamentalist church, and showed me a little draft of a paper she took upon herself to write in defense of young earth creationism. Doing that is fine and all, but she had so many cheap shots about the intelligence of people who don't believe it in parentheses - and this was only the first couple of pages . . .

Doesn't quite rise to the level of intolerance and aggression shown by liberal Christians such as Barry Lynn who filed complaints with the IRS against several Catholic priests because they urged Catholics to vote according to the moral teachings of their church, does it?

Doesn't quite rise to the level of other liberal Christians who sided with the ACLU when it filed a lawsuit demanding prayers not be said at a Tangipahoa Parish school board meeting, does it? Or who sided with the ACLU when it urged a Federal judge to give those school board members jail time for refusing to stop saying a prayer, does it?

Who is kidding whom with this thread? First of all, this is a Conservative Christian forum, not a fundamentalist forum. This question is apparently directed at a denomination or particular sort of conservative Christian. It should be asked of those people. And those who have a "probem with aggresion" should be identified by name. Who has a problem with aggression? Let's put the cards on the table here. Getting a little weary of these threads which are, in my opinion, nothing more than offensive statements about conservative Christians disguised as questions.

[JoeWill]

Good point!

[JoeWill]

Good point!
Good point!

[JoeWill]

Good point!
You see, this is what happens when you don't understand the system. How can I get rid of these?

[JoeWill]

Doesn't quite rise to the level of intolerance and aggression shown by liberal Christians such as Barry Lynn who filed complaints with the IRS against several Catholic priests because they urged Catholics to vote according to the moral teachings of their church, does it?

Doesn't quite rise to the level of other liberal Christians who sided with the ACLU when it filed a lawsuit demanding prayers not be said at a Tangipahoa Parish school board meeting, does it? Or who sided with the ACLU when it urged a Federal judge to give those school board members jail time for refusing to stop saying a prayer, does it?

Who is kidding whom with this thread? First of all, this is a Conservative Christian forum, not a fundamentalist forum. This question is apparently directed at a denomination or particular sort of conservative Christian. It should be asked of those people. And those who have a "probem with aggresion" should be identified by name. Who has a problem with aggression? Let's put the cards on the table here. Getting a little weary of these threads which are, in my opinion, nothing more than offensive statements about conservative Christians disguised as questions.
Chill out. I am just sharing some thoughts derived from my own experiences of fundamentalist Christianity. Other contributors have agreed with me in some respects from their own experiences. I hardly know how to use this website and was not even aware that there was a fundamentalist forum.

[twistedsketch]

Doesn't quite rise to the level of intolerance and aggression shown by liberal Christians such as Barry Lynn who filed complaints with the IRS against several Catholic priests because they urged Catholics to vote according to the moral teachings of their church, does it?

Doesn't quite rise to the level of other liberal Christians who sided with the ACLU when it filed a lawsuit demanding prayers not be said at a Tangipahoa Parish school board meeting, does it? Or who sided with the ACLU when it urged a Federal judge to give those school board members jail time for refusing to stop saying a prayer, does it?
No, and I'm not saying that fundamentalists are the bad guys here.


Who is kidding whom with this thread? First of all, this is a Conservative Christian forum, not a fundamentalist forum. This question is apparently directed at a denomination or particular sort of conservative Christian. It should be asked of those people.
Calm down. I actually post in the Fundamentalist forum, and I've been there pretty much since its beginning. I started a thread on this very topic, inspired by the incident I cited in my first post, this would have been about a year ago. And I am hardline Sola Scriptura, you can ask the people there if I've been trolling or not. This thread didn't offend me at all, so maybe you shouldn't take this so personally.

[JoeWill]

Ah well, I see I'm here on my own. Time to call it a day and get a cup of tea then.

[Joykins]

From my own hyperanalytical perspective, I imagine the unwillingness of some fundamentalists to trust non-fundamentalist sources of information may contribute to the problem of disinformation.

As for aggression, a lot of that appears to be a matter of personal style.

[Izdaari]

2. Contradictions of God's word. For example, Westboro Baptist Church proclaims that God hates gays, America etc. But in John's Gospel we are told that "God so loved the world..." Note that "the world" in John's Gospel refers to those who are unsaved.
JoeWill,

In general I agree with your criticisms of fundamentalist aggressiveness. Approaching others with an arrogant and intolerant manner, or with faulty knowledge of what they believe, is rarely effective. And no, it isn't just media hype: I personally have seen fundamentalists do these things many, many times.

Christians should be humble and loving. And no, that's not code for being liberal. I'm not saying compromise the content. I'm saying have respect and consideration for other people. There's no theology attached to that, just basic people skills.

But please, please, don't use Westboro Baptist Church as an example of fundamentalism. They're way beyond that, a bizarre fringe cult that few respect or could label as anything kinder than heretics. Jerry Falwell was a legitimate fundamentalist. Fred Phelps is better than Jim Jones only because he hasn't killed anybody... yet.

[NewGuy101]

From my own hyperanalytical perspective, I imagine the unwillingness of some fundamentalists to trust non-fundamentalist sources of information may contribute to the problem of disinformation.

As for aggression, a lot of that appears to be a matter of personal style.
You mean when liberals say "no that's just your religious perspective" they are being objective?

[CyberPaladin]

JoeWill you really should go to the fundie board and get to know them and there beliefs better since you apparently aren't that will informed about them if you confused a cult like Westboro Baptist with fundamentalist.

[IamRedeemed]

Well, truthfully that is not my fault or error. You have only spoken in generalities and I am unfamiliar with what the wide brush you are painting with implies as common knowledge against the group you are attacking.

Perhaps if you were to be more specific, by giving specific scenarios of what you might be referring to, I could give you the answers you might be looking for, but I am not going to agree based on what you have said, being that since it was so general and broad, it could very well be perceptional and subjective. There is no way that any confirming answer to your accusation would be anything more than personal prejudice, because there wasn't enough information given in order to condemn anything specifically.

I personally brought up Fred Phelps and condemned his way of ministry. But you didn't bring anyone, any ministry or any specific circumstances up before that or after that. The way you describe the party in which you are attacking seems to relate to someone like Fred Phelps, which is why I mentioned him and let you know that I personally condemn that type of ministry, the things he says is false.

That's the best I can do until you give me more to go on.

As far as your 1-3 examples there, any group can be guilty of any or all of those things and in my personal experience folks from all sects have been.

Personally, I believe you have a personal bias against "Fundamentalists" or your perception of what one is anyway.

Just FYI, I am a conservative, so I am neutral on this topic.


I agree with much of what you say IamRedeemed, but you gave little attention to the fact that Christians can be counter-productive in God's Kingdom by being inappropriately agressive.

You mention that Paul used the guiding ministry of the Holy Spirit to help him know to whom he was speaking and what ought to be said. True enough, but I think that one of the questions posed by this thread is whether many fundamentalist Christians try to advance a Christian message in an agressive manner of which the Holy Spirit would not approve.

I see evidences that they do. For example:

1. Use of dishonesty. Christian fundamentalist literature and videos often attack a belief system, but withold information that their opponents would present in their defence. The Creationist video A Question of Origins for instance, demonstrates why the famous Miller experiment fails to prove that the protein building blocks of life could have formed without the need for a Creator. This is then used to ridicule evolutionary beliefs. What is witheld is the fact that evolutionists do not believe that life formed in this way, but posit different models for the origins of life. (Incidentally, I am a creationist.)

2. Contradictions of God's word. For example, Westboro Baptist Church proclaims that God hates gays, America etc. But in John's Gospel we are told that "God so loved the world..." Note that "the world" in John's Gospel refers to those who are unsaved.

The verse relating to the Greeks and the Jews that I referrred to, comes from I Corinthians 9. Paul is saying that he adopts the manner of a Greek or a Jew, depending upon whether he is witnessing to Greeks or Jews. He modifies his style according to people's needs. Similarly, it is necessary for us to realise that many people are put off by agressive preaching, and would be better suited to a different style of witness.

I know from my own experience of working on a Christian street team that the Holy Spirit does not always show us exactly how to be. Sometimes he relies on us using a bit of wisdom too.

[Izdaari]

You mean when liberals say "no that's just your religious perspective" they are being objective?
I wouldn't say so. I'd say that's them being condescending and dismissive of other opinions. It isn't just fundamentalists that sometimes have trouble with their attitude or their people skills.

[Joykins]

You mean when liberals say "no that's just your religious perspective" they are being objective?

That sounds more dismissive than objective to me.

Everyone has their own way of being rude.

[JoeWill]

Well, truthfully that is not my fault or error. You have only spoken in generalities and I am unfamiliar with what the wide brush you are painting with implies as common knowledge against the group you are attacking.

Perhaps if you were to be more specific, by giving specific scenarios of what you might be referring to, I could give you the answers you might be looking for, but I am not going to agree based on what you have said, being that since it was so general and broad, it could very well be perceptional and subjective. There is no way that any confirming answer to your accusation would be anything more than personal prejudice, because there wasn't enough information given in order to condemn anything specifically.

I personally brought up Fred Phelps and condemned his way of ministry. But you didn't bring anyone, any ministry or any specific circumstances up before that or after that. The way you describe the party in which you are attacking seems to relate to someone like Fred Phelps, which is why I mentioned him and let you know that I personally condemn that type of ministry, the things he says is false.

That's the best I can do until you give me more to go on.

As far as your 1-3 examples there, any group can be guilty of any or all of those things and in my personal experience folks from all sects have been.

Personally, I believe you have a personal bias against "Fundamentalists" or your perception of what one is anyway.

Just FYI, I am a conservative, so I am neutral on this topic.

I not expecting you to "condemn" a particular group or to "agree with me". I am really only asking whether other people have had experiences of agression within Christian fundamentalism that are similar to mine. This might suggest that there is indeed a problem (although not with all "fundies").

As you will have seen, some commentators had no difficulty in relating to my observations. Such experiences tend to lead us toward "generalities" because they are windows that give us insights into a situation and leave us with a certain impression.

What I have been trying to show you that it is easy to reel off a great many Bible verses in answer to a question, in such a way that does not really answer that question. So for example, to quote instances where Jesus or Paul gave a sharp response to their critics, does not really address the issue of whether aggression as a common mode of witness is appropriate.

God teaches us from our life lessons, as well as from the scriptures. Some contributors show that they have learnt from their life experiences as well as from God's word in the Bible. Lady Trekki realised the importance of actually listening to the other person's point of view when witnessing. My time at university taught me that this was the only way that the students were going to listen to me.

You say that I have a bias towards fundamentalism, but why should this be the case? Other people have felt the same way as me in many respects. Izdaari wrote:

In general I agree with your criticisms of fundamentalist aggressiveness. Approaching others with an arrogant and intolerant manner, or with faulty knowledge of what they believe, is rarely effective. And no, it isn't just media hype: I personally have seen fundamentalists do these things many, many times.

Are these individuals all biased too? If you read my first post, you will see that I confessed to having once made the same mistakes as an agressive fundamentalist. The reason for my introducing this thread is that I know the damage that an aggressive approach can cause.

Obviously the main problem with my thread is that not all "fundies" are the same. I have some fundamentalist friends who are kind and gentle in spirit. But multiple statements such as the one above suggest that the problem of agressiveness within fundamentalism may be widespread. Then the perceptions that the general public gain become very important.


What do I mean by agression?

I was witnessing to a historian who felt that the material in the four Gospels was fabricated. With some knowledge of apologetics I was able to show where his arguments were rather one-sided. I was also trying to gently tell him that his closedness of heart precluded the possibility that the Holy Spirit could put the truth on his heart. That man was gradually "warming" to my message until my fundamentalist friend burst in, shouting that "unless you repent, you will go straight to hell!" The reply came back, "I will never accept such bigoted nonsense!"

In my local newspaper, a Muslim man had been sharing his faith at great length in the Letters Page. A Christian whom I know decided to reply but instead of giving the gospel message, countered with the history of Islam and slavery. In return, a long letter appeared in the paper quoting multiple examples of slavery being condoned in the Bible.

A non-Christian acquaintance visited New York, and saw something like a week when the churches were attempting to reach out to Jewish people. They said that the whole thing was massively overdone, with posters bombarding Jewish people from every angle and people handing out leaflets or tracts to them on every street corner as they went to work. Is it just me, or can other people see how this might come across as more of an assault than Christian witness?

[JoeWill]

JoeWill you really should go to the fundie board and get to know them and there beliefs better since you apparently aren't that will informed about them if you confused a cult like Westboro Baptist with fundamentalist.
Don't forget that I am writing from Britain, and do not have all the knowledge that you have regarding Christian fundamentalism in the USA. I am finding out whether impressions of Christian fundamentalism across the ocean come close to mine.

[neilius73]

This video demonstrates the mindset of a fundamentalist:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6B9GlayKS_0

[SpiritDriven]

Hello,

Sorry to seem as though I am tarring lots of people with the same brush; it is not my intention to cause offence. I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation.

Over here in Great Britain, fundamentalist Christians and particularly American fundamentalist Christians are perceived as displaying agression and hostility towards competing value orientations and belief systems. When I attended university, many students saw fundamentalist Christians as people who were "not very nice".

Influenced by hard-hitting fundamentalist literature, I began to slam comments by lecturers and students that challenged the Bible. I soon found that this form of witness could be off-putting to people who cannot yet see the truth of the Bible. I needed to soften my answers somewhat.

During a one week placement at a Liberal Jewish college, I felt that the church was ill-equipped to witness to these Jewish students who showed great learning coupled with gentility and humility of spirit. I felt that liberal Christians had the sensitivity needed to communicate with these people, but might lack the knowledge base to demonstrate how the Old Testament prophecies point to the person of Jesus Christ. Fundamentalists on the other hand, had the necessary Bible knowledge but might be too loud and brash to be effective.

My fellow students of religion attended a discussion at a Baptist church entitled "Do all religions lead to God?" When the Baptists talked about how Hindus believe in many gods, the students corrected them, pointing out that there are many strains of Hinduism and not all believe in gods. The Baptists just kept on insisting that all Hindus believe in many gods, and the students left feeling disgusted at them.

My degree in comparative religion took the "hard edge" off my fundamentalism, by way of listening to people and learning to see from the other person's perspective. But I notice in other fundamentalists a shallow way of thinking that I once had. Members of my Christian street team proclaim with a loud, terse statement that the Allah of Islam is not a God of love (actually a common misconception) based on some flimsy, inaccurate leaflet that they once read.

There seem to be lots of examples of extremes of aggression in fundamentalist Christianity. I listened to an American group (see Westboro Baptist Church on the net) who believe that God hates gays on a British show. Apparently God also "hates" America, Sweden, the Roman Catholic Church etc. When a clergyman said that God loves everyone ("For God so loved the world...") he was told that he was a liar, apparently based on the Bible verse which says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau.

My pastor always says that Jesus was not agressive in his ministry. However, there do seem to be some examples of Jesus showing the religious authorities where they were wrong in no uncertain terms. Similar examples occur in I John, where John labels herectics as "liars" and "sons of the Devil". And so on.

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?

Very much so.....but you do have to remember that scripture does actualy tells us....that God does all things after the counsel of his own will...he hardens who he desires and shows mercy to whom he desires.

On more than one occasion God is declared as the saviour of all men, in scripture.

Just because he has blinded some men to this for a season, does not mean things are not being done after the counsel of Gods will.

Everything that is done is for a higher purpose of Gods, because it is he who has shut up all men in disobedience that he may show mercy to all...its all there in scripture.

After reading your post, I know God is drawing you in closer, to the realisation of the truth...he is lifting the blinkers on you for sure.

Grace and Peace to you....always!

[Colabomb]

Hello,

Sorry to seem as though I am tarring lots of people with the same brush; it is not my intention to cause offence. I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation.

Over here in Great Britain, fundamentalist Christians and particularly American fundamentalist Christians are perceived as displaying agression and hostility towards competing value orientations and belief systems. When I attended university, many students saw fundamentalist Christians as people who were "not very nice".

Influenced by hard-hitting fundamentalist literature, I began to slam comments by lecturers and students that challenged the Bible. I soon found that this form of witness could be off-putting to people who cannot yet see the truth of the Bible. I needed to soften my answers somewhat.

During a one week placement at a Liberal Jewish college, I felt that the church was ill-equipped to witness to these Jewish students who showed great learning coupled with gentility and humility of spirit. I felt that liberal Christians had the sensitivity needed to communicate with these people, but might lack the knowledge base to demonstrate how the Old Testament prophecies point to the person of Jesus Christ. Fundamentalists on the other hand, had the necessary Bible knowledge but might be too loud and brash to be effective.

My fellow students of religion attended a discussion at a Baptist church entitled "Do all religions lead to God?" When the Baptists talked about how Hindus believe in many gods, the students corrected them, pointing out that there are many strains of Hinduism and not all believe in gods. The Baptists just kept on insisting that all Hindus believe in many gods, and the students left feeling disgusted at them.

My degree in comparative religion took the "hard edge" off my fundamentalism, by way of listening to people and learning to see from the other person's perspective. But I notice in other fundamentalists a shallow way of thinking that I once had. Members of my Christian street team proclaim with a loud, terse statement that the Allah of Islam is not a God of love (actually a common misconception) based on some flimsy, inaccurate leaflet that they once read.

There seem to be lots of examples of extremes of aggression in fundamentalist Christianity. I listened to an American group (see Westboro Baptist Church on the net) who believe that God hates gays on a British show. Apparently God also "hates" America, Sweden, the Roman Catholic Church etc. When a clergyman said that God loves everyone ("For God so loved the world...") he was told that he was a liar, apparently based on the Bible verse which says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau.

My pastor always says that Jesus was not agressive in his ministry. However, there do seem to be some examples of Jesus showing the religious authorities where they were wrong in no uncertain terms. Similar examples occur in I John, where John labels herectics as "liars" and "sons of the Devil". And so on.

So is there a problem with agression in fundamentalist Christianity?

Westboro baptist Church is an extreme example. They do not represent fundementalism, they represent hatred.

[Izdaari]

I was witnessing to a historian who felt that the material in the four Gospels was fabricated. With some knowledge of apologetics I was able to show where his arguments were rather one-sided. I was also trying to gently tell him that his closedness of heart precluded the possibility that the Holy Spirit could put the truth on his heart. That man was gradually "warming" to my message until my fundamentalist friend burst in, shouting that "unless you repent, you will go straight to hell!" The reply came back, "I will never accept such bigoted nonsense!"

In my local newspaper, a Muslim man had been sharing his faith at great length in the Letters Page. A Christian whom I know decided to reply but instead of giving the gospel message, countered with the history of Islam and slavery. In return, a long letter appeared in the paper quoting multiple examples of slavery being condoned in the Bible.

A non-Christian acquaintance visited New York, and saw something like a weekend when the churches were attempting to reach out to Jewish people. They said that the whole thing was massively overdone, with posters bombarding Jewish people from every angle and people handing out leaflets or tracts to them on every street corner as they went to work. Is it just me, or can other people see how this might come across as more of an assault than Christian witness?
Those are excellent examples of how not to do it, Joe. It isn't just fundamentalists btw. Conservative evangelicals sometimes do the same thing. In politics, I see it on both sides of the aisle, and in fact I think it's more prevalent on the liberal side.

However, Tim LaHaye, James Dobson and the late Jerry Falwell are better examples of typical American fundamentalists than Fred Phelps, who runs a wacko hate cult which has very little in common with any form of Christianity. Phelps is a good example of extreme aggressiveness and intolerance, but using him as an example of fundamentalism is like comparing Tony Blair to Stalin, or George Bush to Hitler.

[JoeWill]

Well I looked at these responses and a few thoughts came to mind.

I believe people when they say that Westboro Baptist Church is not typical of Christian fundamentalism in the USA.

I also accept that plenty of moderate "fundies" can be found on the fundamentalist forum and among American religious authorities. However, my question is whether aggressive witness is a significant trend within Christian fundamentalism, despite there being many counter-examples.

I must admit that as a student of social research methods, I notice a weakness in the references to contributors at the fundamentalist forum. Some of the attributes that people associated with aggressive fundamentalism on this thread have been closed-mindedness, intolerance and disinterest in the other person's point of view. So would these types of fundamentalist be interested in discussion and view-sharing on a Christian forum in the first place?

In other words, the "fundie" forum may not be especially representative of Christian fundamentalism as a whole, in the same way that I have been said to be using a few cases to paint the complete picture.


Two questions to emerge from this discussion are:

1. Twistedsketch wrote:

Still, I think there is a problem with it to some extent. There's a girl I know who found herself in a fundamentalist church, and showed me a little draft of a paper she took upon herself to write in defense of young earth creationism. Doing that is fine and all, but she had so many cheap shots about the intelligence of people who don't believe it in parentheses - and this was only the first couple of pages.

So how do Christians become like that?


2. Izdaari wrote:

Those are excellent examples of how not to do it, Joe. It isn't just fundamentalists btw. Conservative evangelicals sometimes do the same thing. In politics, I see it on both sides of the aisle, and in fact I think it's more prevalent on the liberal side.

So how do you dissaude Christians from "doing it wrong" - in a sense, how do you witness to the "agressive witnesses"?


Any ideas?

[IamRedeemed]

As I have said repeatedly, you are painting with such a wide brush, and the examples of "aggression" can be attributed to all groups. Using Izdaari as a way to prove you don't have a prejudice view against fundamentalists actually proves otherwise, as Izdaari is admittedly more of a liberal than a conservative, so I would not expect an objective view that what you are implying is a fact when indeed it can be and most often IS perceptional and subjective.

My point in showing you that Jesus as well as Paul have said several harsh truths was merely to show that it is perception, as those that didn't like what they had to say KILLED THEM because of their personal perception of what they were saying and doing.

As I also said, there is no way that any type of confirming answer to your accusation would be anything more than personal prejudice, because there wasn't enough information given by you in order to condemn anything specifically.


As I also pointed out, your examples can be attributed to anyone of all groups. Take a look in the Christian Ethics and Philosophy area and you will see aggression, by Liberal Christians fighting for the right to live sinful lifestyles which is politically in alignment with atheist, pagans and other non-Christians.

I agree that listening is an important thing to do, how else can you know where someone stands? And you have shown also that you only listen to whom is speaking what you want to hear, as you haven't listened to a thing I have said yet, other than what you felt you could use as possible ammunition.

I could have just answered NO, that has not been my experience, but I did open an ear to hear if you had some specific things to say, but the things you did say again, can be attributed to ALL groups. Therefore, if you just want a yes or no answer, the answer is NO, I believe you have judged an entire group falsely.

I not expecting you to "condemn" a particular group or to "agree with me". I am really only asking whether other people have had experiences of agression within Christian fundamentalism that are similar to mine. This might suggest that there is indeed a problem (although not with all "fundies").

As you will have seen, some commentators had no difficulty in relating to my observations. Such experiences tend to lead us toward "generalities" because they are windows that give us insights into a situation and leave us with a certain impression.

What I have been trying to show you that it is easy to reel off a great many Bible verses in answer to a question, in such a way that does not really answer that question. So for example, to quote instances where Jesus or Paul gave a sharp response to their critics, does not really address the issue of whether aggression as a common mode of witness is appropriate.

God teaches us from our life lessons, as well as from the scriptures. Some contributors show that they have learnt from their life experiences as well as from God's word in the Bible. Lady Trekki realised the importance of actually listening to the other person's point of view when witnessing. My time at university taught me that this was the only way that the students were going to listen to me.

You say that I have a bias towards fundamentalism, but why should this be the case? Other people have felt the same way as me in many respects. Izdaari wrote:

In general I agree with your criticisms of fundamentalist aggressiveness. Approaching others with an arrogant and intolerant manner, or with faulty knowledge of what they believe, is rarely effective. And no, it isn't just media hype: I personally have seen fundamentalists do these things many, many times.

Are these individuals all biased too? If you read my first post, you will see that I confessed to having once made the same mistakes as an agressive fundamentalist. The reason for my introducing this thread is that I know the damage that an aggressive approach can cause.

Obviously the main problem with my thread is that not all "fundies" are the same. I have some fundamentalist friends who are kind and gentle in spirit. But multiple statements such as the one above suggest that the problem of agressiveness within fundamentalism may be widespread. Then the perceptions that the general public gain become very important.


What do I mean by agression?

I was witnessing to a historian who felt that the material in the four Gospels was fabricated. With some knowledge of apologetics I was able to show where his arguments were rather one-sided. I was also trying to gently tell him that his closedness of heart precluded the possibility that the Holy Spirit could put the truth on his heart. That man was gradually "warming" to my message until my fundamentalist friend burst in, shouting that "unless you repent, you will go straight to hell!" The reply came back, "I will never accept such bigoted nonsense!"

In my local newspaper, a Muslim man had been sharing his faith at great length in the Letters Page. A Christian whom I know decided to reply but instead of giving the gospel message, countered with the history of Islam and slavery. In return, a long letter appeared in the paper quoting multiple examples of slavery being condoned in the Bible.

A non-Christian acquaintance visited New York, and saw something like a week when the churches were attempting to reach out to Jewish people. They said that the whole thing was massively overdone, with posters bombarding Jewish people from every angle and people handing out leaflets or tracts to them on every street corner as they went to work. Is it just me, or can other people see how this might come across as more of an assault than Christian witness?

[JoeWill]

IamRedeemed,

My question has to do with whether people, in their personal experiences, have felt that there exists a significant trend of aggressive witness within fundamentalist Christianity (despite there being many counter-examples).

So I don’t agree that your reference to my painting with a “broad brush”, or your point that aggressive traits can be found in all groups, make that question unanswerable. In fact, some individuals have indeed been able to say “yes”, there is such a problem, based upon what they have seen.

You say “no” that is not your own experience, so I accept this as your answer.

It is certainly not the case that I haven’t listened to you and others. My responses to people’s objections show that I have tried to understand what they were saying and acknowledged points that they made, such as Westboro Baptist Church not being representative of American fundamentalist Christianity.

But some of your comments seem disordered and I find them difficult to unpick. For example, on page 2 you wrote:

“Jesus made some pretty harsh statements as you noticed…”

This tells me as you say, that “Jesus made some pretty harsh statements”.

But then you seem to say above that you used these verses to show that such harsh statements are really a matter of perception(?) This did not seem to be the original context of your post and I don’t think anyone else would have made the connection. You will have to elaborate. I found other points that you made confusing as well.

As for my being prejudiced against fundamentalist Christians, numerous other people have made similar observations to myself. They seem quite open and genuine and I see no reason to suspect any bias. The same goes for my own observations of Christian fundamentalism.

[JoeWill]

Two questions to emerge from this discussion are:

1. Twistedsketch wrote:

Still, I think there is a problem with it to some extent. There's a girl I know who found herself in a fundamentalist church, and showed me a little draft of a paper she took upon herself to write in defense of young earth creationism. Doing that is fine and all, but she had so many cheap shots about the intelligence of people who don't believe it in parentheses - and this was only the first couple of pages.

So how do Christians become like that?


2. Izdaari wrote:

Those are excellent examples of how not to do it, Joe. It isn't just fundamentalists btw. Conservative evangelicals sometimes do the same thing. In politics, I see it on both sides of the aisle, and in fact I think it's more prevalent on the liberal side.

So how do you dissaude Christians from "doing it wrong" - in a sense, how do you witness to the "agressive witnesses"?


Any ideas?