Martin Luther as AntiChrist poll

[BigNorsk]

Well someone put up a poll asking if Martin Luther was the Antichrist.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5812580-martin-luther-an-antichrist.html

Marv

[seajoy]

Good grief...what a nut that started this poll. :doh: I told him so. Perhaps I'll be banned or something now. :eek:

[dinkime]

aye aye aye

[DaRev]

Good grief...what a nut that started this poll. :doh:

A Roman Catholic.

[Jenna]

Oy. What a ridiculous thread. :sigh:

[Jim47]

I reported it. I suggest you all do the same.

[DaSeminarian]

Me thinks he was looking for a fight. I told him so on the thread. Told him I also wouldn't debate this issue with him as he was only going to hear his own evidence and nothing else.

[LilLamb219]

The OP is doing this as revenge. I don't know how much I can divulge...but maybe I can provide links to his reports and you can read WHY ? ;)

[LilLamb219]

http://www.christianforums.com/t5805722-messianic-judaism-mezzamorta-07-30-2007.html
http://www.christianforums.com/t5761097-messianic-judaism-mezzamorta-07-24-2007.html

[Jim47]

This guy is hate filled and flames everyone. I already issued an fsb from MJ as he has been bashing them for a long time. Not that I agree with MJs theology but we all have our congregational forums and want peace within them, its wrong to deny any congregation of that.

Please give your input into this report

http://www.christianforums.com/t5817533

[IowaLutheran]

This guy is hate filled and flames everyone. I already issued an fsb from MJ as he has been bashing them for a long time. Not that I agree with MJs theology but we all have our congregational forums and want peace within them, its wrong to deny any congregation of that.

Please give your input into this report

http://www.christianforums.com/t5817533

This type of poster makes forums like these miserable. I fully support your recommendation to completely ban him from CF.

[DaSeminarian]

This guy is hate filled and flames everyone. I already issued an fsb from MJ as he has been bashing them for a long time. Not that I agree with MJs theology but we all have our congregational forums and want peace within them, its wrong to deny any congregation of that.

Please give your input into this report

http://www.christianforums.com/t5817533

As I said before and in the thread where he seemingly chooses to pick a fight with us, he is not worth my time and I won't cater to someone who's mind can't be changed.

He obviously doesn't like Lutherans so why give him any time that could be better spent sharing the Gospel.

[dinkime]

awe, i feel so special, someone quoted me there........

[Jim47]

This type of poster makes forums like these miserable. I fully support your recommendation to completely ban him from CF.



Please post in the report, everyone please. This needs to be handled

[Melethiel]

Please note that Theology has a very hard line regarding comments in reports. We reserve the right to delete any posts which do not directly pertain to the report itself, or which bash any member within the report. It is the Theology mods which will make the final decision as to which action to take.

[Jim47]

Please note that Theology has a very hard line regarding comments in reports. We reserve the right to delete any posts which do not directly pertain to the report itself, or which bash any member within the report. It is the Theology mods which will make the final decision as to which action to take.



Comments are not the issue, what is happening in Theology is. This is strictly against CF forum rules.

[DaRev]

Welcome to the "new" Christian Forums.

Expect more of the same.

[Melethiel]

Comments are not the issue, what is happening in Theology is. This is strictly against CF forum rules.
Then please make your case in the report, citing rule and Theology precedent, instead of making vague accusations and threatening judgment from on high.

[seajoy]

This is strictly against CF forum rules.
What parts are against the rules, Jim? :)

I want to know if what ends up being taken care of is done by the rules of CF, or because of what mods just decide is right or wrong. It will be interesting to find out.

[DaRev]

What parts are against the rules, Jim? :)

I want to know if what ends up being taken care of is done by the rules of CF, or because of what mods just decide is right or wrong. It will be interesting to find out.

Well, with the rules here changing daily, it has to be up to moderator interpretation. Otherwise, what's the point of having mods? There really aren't any hard and fast "rules" here anymore.

Being a moderator here is not a job I would want. God bless those who are.

[Melethiel]

What parts are against the rules, Jim? :)

I want to know if what ends up being taken care of is done by the rules of CF, or because of what mods just decide is right or wrong. It will be interesting to find out.
As of the moment, the rules only speak about insulting members or groups of members. We used to have a clause about insulting figures important to another's faith, but this clause no longer exists. Hence, the ambiguity.

[LilLamb219]

Well, with the rules here changing daily, it has to be up to moderator interpretation. Otherwise, what's the point of having mods? There really aren't any hard and fast "rules" here anymore.

Being a moderator here is not a job I would want. God bless those who are.

It's quickly becoming a job not too many of us want. Erwin certainly made a mess of things. :sigh:

[seajoy]

As of the moment, the rules only speak about insulting members or groups of members. We used to have a clause about insulting figures important to another's faith, but this clause no longer exists. Hence, the ambiguity.
I didn't realize that rule was no longer in effect. Wow.
I'm surprised there are any mods left here at all.

[Jim47]

Please note that Theology has a very hard line regarding comments in reports. We reserve the right to delete any posts which do not directly pertain to the report itself, or which bash any member within the report. It is the Theology mods which will make the final decision as to which action to take.


I did that already :P

Now get to work ;)

[seajoy]

It's quickly becoming a job not too many of us want. Erwin certainly made a mess of things. :sigh:
I sure wouldn't want to be a mod :sick:

You guys are more brave than I. :bow:

[MezzaMorta]

I detailed why and gave evidence for my opinion. I feel that there is significant evidence to at the very least label him as a misguided man who opened the gates of hell onto this earth. An Anti-Christ of the highest form at the worst, who divided the Church of Christ as the bible says would occur, as well as had taken billions on a path that very well might lead them away from salvation, or at very best make it difficult for them to obtain.

[DaSeminarian]

I detailed why and gave evidence for my opinion. I feel that there is significant evidence to at the very least label him as a misguided man who opened the gates of hell onto this earth. An Anti-Christ of the highest form at the worst, who divided the Church of Christ as the bible says would occur, as well as had taken billions on a path that very well might lead them away from salvation, or at very best make it difficult for them to obtain.

Your evidence is tainted with your opinion and is not anywhere's near objective in evidence. You are all of 20 years old. Go back to school and get an education and then come back here. Maybe you will actually learn something. Your RC back puts your credibility at an all time low. I have no time to spend on the likes of you so I will ignore any further posting you make to this sight. Is that understood.

[DaSeminarian]

Here is what I think. We need to leave this forum and go to the other one. Let the liberals have it. Erwin has shown his true colors in the way he wants to run this forum.

[seajoy]

I detailed why and gave evidence for my opinion. I feel that there is significant evidence to at the very least label him as a misguided man who opened the gates of hell onto this earth. An Anti-Christ of the highest form at the worst, who divided the Church of Christ as the bible says would occur, as well as had taken billions on a path that very well might lead them away from salvation, or at very best make it difficult for them to obtain.
The only way to obtain salvation is through Christ. If you think you have another way...then get out of TCL...or listen to what we are telling you.

[QuiltAngel]

MM
If you want to see some unbiased research done on Dr. Luther, please look at the research papers linked to at this site: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/

The man who wrote these started out like you and after much research found that the commonly held beliefs that RC and others have on Dr. Luther is not accurate. Read ALL the research links there before coming back here. There are about 30 links there that should keep you busy for a while.

[porterross]

The OP is doing this as revenge. I don't know how much I can divulge...but maybe I can provide links to his reports and you can read WHY ? ;)

Why he is allowed to maintain his account here is beyond me. He offends people in every thread I've seen him post.


You guys are wasting your time trying to appeal to his sense of logic. He likes to flame and offend. You are only feeding a forum-wide troll.

[MezzaMorta]

MM
If you want to see some unbiased research done on Dr. Luther, please look at the research papers linked to at this site: http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/

The man who wrote these started out like you and after much research found that the commonly held beliefs that RC and others have on Dr. Luther is not accurate. Read ALL the research links there before coming back here. There are about 30 links there that should keep you busy for a while.

I’ve read quite a bit about the man, and my theology teacher in high school completed his doctoral thesis on Martin Luther and his life. His hatred for Jews and Authority stems from his childhood, both because his father worked for rich Jews and resented it, and because his mother was a prostitute in a bath house which catered towards many corrupt member of the Catholic Church.

His works detail his progression from holding amonosity towards Jews, to near his death when he called for the full out mass extermination of them from Germany.

[LilLamb219]

Thread closed for staff review

[Jim47]

According to CF rules this thread has to be opened back up again. This is also a warning to non Lutheran members that they are not allowed to debate the Lutheran faith or the founder of our faith who faithfully served God and Our Lord and Savior.

[Radiata]

MezzaMorta, the problem with your view is, you are posting someone elses own personal biased vendetta against Martin Luther as your own. Luther is human, therefore he makes mistakes. There are things that he did that even Lutherans don't like. It doesn't mean that he is evil or the antichrist. He just had a passion to make sure that the word of God was upheald. There was good, great reason for going against the 16th century Catholic Church. Frankly I don't understand why any Christians resent what he did. The only people that should scorn what he did are the select few Catholics that think Protastants are not saved, and nonchristians.

[QuiltAngel]

MezzaMorta,
Read all the articles linked to the link I gave you. These are written by someone who is neither RC or Lutheran. He studied each thing for accuracy and historically. I recommend this because it does not come a RC or Lutheran slant.

[Tertiumquid]

I’ve read quite a bit about the man, and my theology teacher in high school completed his doctoral thesis on Martin Luther and his life. His hatred for Jews and Authority stems from his childhood, both because his father worked for rich Jews and resented it, and because his mother was a prostitute in a bath house which catered towards many corrupt member of the Catholic Church.

I'm sorry to hear that about your high school teacher. At first, I thought you were describing Luther, but I'm familiar enough with the facts about Luther's parents to know you must be describing the parents of your High School teacher.

the rumor of Luther's mother being a prostitute is actually that she was a prostitute and had intercourse with a demon to produce Luther. This myth is thought to have been perpetuated by Luther's nemesis Cochlaeus, but really, it was a typical unsubstantiated sixteenth century myth. The reason why Luther's legitimacy is suspect is because Luther's mother is documented as saying she can remember the day, but not the year Martin was born. Somehow, this means Luther was an illegitimate child.

As to the bathhouse, this is probably derived from the story of Luther being born in a bar. WHT Dau explains:

"Some have declared [Luther] the illegitimate child of a Bohemian heretic, others, the oaf of a witch, still others, a changeling of Beelzebub, etc. Many of these writers, giving themselves the airs of painstaking investigators who have made careful research, repeat the tale of Barbour, viz., that Luther was born in the day-and-night room of an inn at Eisleben. If this is so, Luther's mother must have been a traveler on the day of her first confinement. If this were so, the fact could, of course, be easily explained without dishonor to Luther's mother: she merely miscalculated the date of the birth of her first-born,--not an unusual occurrence. Carlyle believed this story, but gave it an almost too honorable turn, by likening the inn at Eisenach to the inn at Bethlehem.

But this story of Luther's birth in a bar-room is not history; it belongs in the realm of mythology. Nobody knows to-day the house where Luther was born. Preserved Smith, his latest American biographer, says there is a house shown at Eisleben as Luther's birthplace, but it is 'not well authenticated.' There is a bar and a restaurant in this particular building now, for the accommodation of foreign visitors. It is possible that in this mythical birthplace of Luther you can get a stein of foaming "monk's brew" or a "benedictine" from the monastery at Fecamp, or a "chartreuse" from Tarragona, distilled according to the secret formula of the holy fathers of La Grande Chartreuse. If you sip a sufficient quantity of these persuasive liquors, you will find it possible to believe most anything. And the blessing of the holy fathers who have prepared the beverages for your repast will be given you gratis in addition to their liquors.

The journey of Luther's mother to Eisleben which compelled her to put up at an inn is, likewise, imaginary. Melanchthon, Luther's associate during the greater part of the Reformer's life, investigated the matter and states that Luther was born at his parents' home in Eisenach during their temporary sojourn in that city, prior to their removal to Mansfeld.

These stories about the place and manner of Luther's birth originated in the seventeenth century. They were unknown in Luther's time. Generations after a great man has died gossip becomes busy and begins to relate remarkable incidents of his life. Lincoln did not say or do one half of the interesting things related about him. He has been drawn into that magical circle where myths are formed, because his great name will arouse interest in the wildest tale. That is what has happened to Luther. These "myths" are an unconscious tribute to his greatness. One might let them pass as such and smile at them." "[Source: WHT Dau, Luther Examined and Reexamined (St. Louis, Mo. Concordia Publishing House 1917) p.17-18]

As to Luther's father being employed by Jewish people, even the polemical Father Patrick O'Hare's Facts About Luther notes Luther's Father "owned and cultivated a small farm. He worked and struggled against great odds to eke out a frugal livelihood" (p.23). Of course, O'Hare, no friend of Luther, goes on to perpetuate the myth that Luther's father was a murderer. More often, Luther's father is described as owning a smelting business, which is the most accurate descrption. I've never read that Luther's father "worked for rich Jews"- one would have to know who owned the mine in the town of Eisleben, where Luther's father worked before opening his own trade. It really wouldn't matter who owned the mine- 15th and 16th century employees tended to hate their employers. Of course, the Jews were hated throughout the Middle Ages and Reformation period by the majority of non-Jewish people. So, even if the assertion of Luther's father is true, it would have been true of the majority of non-Jewish people. This doesn't excuse it, but it stops Luther's father for being singled out, as if he was somehow different from the majority of people from that time period.

Also, you may find this information from the editors of Luther's Works helpful:

"In Mansfeld, which was at that time the heart of the copper mining industry, the Luders sought their fortune in mining and made it. Through hard work, thriftiness, and honesty Gross-Hans made his way from hired mine hand to renter, co-owner, and owner of mines and furnaces, and from an immigrant to the city to a position comparable to a present-day alderman. By 1508/09 the Luders had gained the respect of their fellow-citizens and some wealth." [LW 48:329]

His works detail his progression from holding amonosity towards Jews, to near his death when he called for the full out mass extermination of them from Germany.

I've done an entire paper on Luther and the Jews (http://www.ntrmin.org/Luther%20and%20the%20Jews%20(Web).htm). I don't know exactly what the word "amonosity" means, so I can't really comment. It is a fact that Luther broke with the anti-Jewish sentiment typical of his day early in his career. This was an incredible happening, since most people hated the Jews their entire lives.

By the end of his career, Luther was convinced that the Jews were proselytizing Christians- in other words, preaching law to them. This infuriated Luther. Any group that preached the law as a means of salvation was attacked with everything Luther could muster.

Regards,

James Swan
Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/)

[Tertiumquid]

Just a quick follow-up:

I made it through about 10 pages of the "Luther is the Anitchrist" thread. There really is nothing new under the sun. It's a shame that in each generation, the same polemic is put forth about Luther. Now with the Internet, it is a free-for-all of silliness.

But Lutherans, take heart! Many great Lutheran scholars have taken the time to respond to the arguments against Luther, be they personal or theological. You have the information to refute the claims made. Long ago, the Lutheran writer WHT Dau commented,

"No slander against Luther has ever gone unanswered. As the charges against Luther have become stereotyped, so the rejoinder cannot hope to bring forward any new facts. But it seems necessary that each generation in the Church Militant be put through the old drills, and learn its fruitful lessons of spiritual adversity. Thus even these polemical exchanges between Catholics and Protestants become blessings in disguise. But they do not affect Luther. The sublime figure of the courageous confessor of Christ that has stood towering in the annals of the Christian Church for four hundred years stands unshaken, silent, and grand, despite the froth that is dashed against its base and the lightning from angry clouds that strikes its top. "[WHT Dau, Luther Examined and Reexamined (St. Louis, Mo. Concordia Publishing House 1917) p.5-6]


Regards,

James Swan
Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/)

[KEPLER]

Just a quick follow-up:

I made it through about 10 pages of the "Luther is the Anitchrist" thread. There really is nothing new under the sun. It's a shame that in each generation, the same polemic is put forth about Luther. Now with the Internet, it is a free-for-all of silliness.

But Lutherans, take heart! Many great Lutheran scholars have taken the time to respond to the arguments against Luther, be they personal or theological. You have the information to refute the claims made. Long ago, the Lutheran writer WHT Dau commented,

"No slander against Luther has ever gone unanswered. As the charges against Luther have become stereotyped, so the rejoinder cannot hope to bring forward any new facts. But it seems necessary that each generation in the Church Militant be put through the old drills, and learn its fruitful lessons of spiritual adversity. Thus even these polemical exchanges between Catholics and Protestants become blessings in disguise. But they do not affect Luther. The sublime figure of the courageous confessor of Christ that has stood towering in the annals of the Christian Church for four hundred years stands unshaken, silent, and grand, despite the froth that is dashed against its base and the lightning from angry clouds that strikes its top. "[WHT Dau, Luther Examined and Reexamined (St. Louis, Mo. Concordia Publishing House 1917) p.5-6]


Regards,

James Swan
Beggars All: Reformation and Apologetics (http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/)
Jim,

I think the internet is a major culprit here. It makes it far too easy for people to upload all the conspiracy nonsense that has been debunked over the years, which introduces it -- as you said -- to a whole new generation.

People trust webpages and wikipedia implicitly, without any concern for their scholarly value, or any attempt at critical analysis and verification. I am grateful for what you do, Sir; for taking the time to provide (GASP!) actual sources and citations.

Although you are not Lutheran, IMHO, you are welcome here at TCL any time, brother.

Bless you!

Kepler

EDIT: Hey! All my Lutheran homeys, we need a Rep Fest for Jim!

[Mankin]

I honestally cannot believe that guy. According to him, all Jews are evil too. I suppose if someone started a poll that a pope will be the AntiChrist then he would tell them they are going to burn in hell.

[Mankin]

I detailed why and gave evidence for my opinion. I feel that there is significant evidence to at the very least label him as a misguided man who opened the gates of hell onto this earth. An Anti-Christ of the highest form at the worst, who divided the Church of Christ as the bible says would occur, as well as had taken billions on a path that very well might lead them away from salvation, or at very best make it difficult for them to obtain.
The Catholic Church sold salvation at that time just to build a church. I have my reasons to believe a pope will be the AntiChrist.

[QuiltAngel]

Jim,

I think the internet is a major culprit here. It makes it far too easy for people to upload all the conspiracy nonsense that has been debunked over the years, which introduces it -- as you said -- to a whole new generation.

People trust webpages and wikipedia implicitly, without any concern for their scholarly value, or any attempt at critical analysis and verification. I am grateful for what you do, Sir; for taking the time to provide (GASP!) actual sources and citations.

Although you are not Lutheran, IMHO, you are welcome here at TCL any time, brother.

Bless you!

Kepler

EDIT: Hey! All my Lutheran homeys, we need a Rep Fest for Jim!

That, and many RC's will only believe anything that agrees with what their theologians have written. Not exactly unbiased sources there. Why would they write anything good about the man who tried to reform their church.

That is why I like to point people to Mr. Swan's site and research.

I already repped Mr. Swan. I really appreciate what you wrote. Now, MM needs to read it with an open mind and look at the true facts.

I appreciate that Mr. Swan has researched the culture of Luther's time which really does help explain things. We sit here with the eyes of 2007 and try to make the 1500's like now, which we can not do. It just does not work. :scratch:

[LutheranChick]

That, and many RC's will only believe anything that agrees with what their theologians have written. Not exactly unbiased sources there. Why would they write anything good about the man who tried to reform their church.

That is why I like to point people to Mr. Swan's site and research.

I already repped Mr. Swan. I really appreciate what you wrote. Now, MM needs to read it with an open mind and look at the true facts.

I appreciate that Mr. Swan has researched the culture of Luther's time which really does help explain things. We sit here with the eyes of 2007 and try to make the 1500's like now, which we can not do. It just does not work. :scratch:
I also appreciate Mr. Swan's post. As for MM, I am sadly afraid that he is not open to anything but his own misconstrued ideas. But we should pray for the Lord to turn his heart. And, take heart, because when people of our faith are attacked in this manner, it only serves to strengthen us and make the truth known. If MM had not posted his poll, this thread would never have happened, and Mr. Swan wouldn't have posted the very good info regarding Martin Luther - which is educational to all that read it. God's work again!

[QuiltAngel]

I also appreciate Mr. Swan's post. As for MM, I am sadly afraid that he is not open to anything but his own misconstrued ideas. But we should pray for the Lord to turn his heart. And, take heart, because when people of our faith are attacked in this manner, it only serves to strengthen us and make the truth known. If MM had not posted his poll, this thread would never have happened, and Mr. Swan wouldn't have posted the very good info regarding Martin Luther - which is educational to all that read it. God's work again!

You are right, those with this bias are not going to be open to learning the truth. I was in a discussion a few months back on another board about the same things. I came here asking for resources and was pointed to Mr. Swan. I have found that when you point people to research that is neither Lutheran or RC (those are the main ones), they quit talking with you.

The one thing that helps is knowing that if someone else is looking for information and they come across writings like Mr. Swan's, they take the time to read and study all the research and really learn, then it is worth the original discussion which frustrated me in the first place.