Do we need a third Vatican Council?

[PaladinGirl]

Hi everyone. :wave: Do we need a third Vatican Council? I am of the opinion that we do and that this one should bring the church up to modern times by eliminating the rules on birth control, women priests, gay priests, and other rules. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening as long as we have a conservative pope around. What is your opinion?

[MikeK]

It's my oppinion that if such a council were held today, the Church would cease to exist as we know it very soon. If the Church clearly states that it was wrong on a teaching that was once held as infallable, what makes it any different than any other denomination? Catholics tend to like the comfort that comes in knowing that the teachings of the Church on faith and morals cannot be wrong. Take that away and the whole thing kinda crumbles.

[Cosmic Charlie]

Yeah. That's just what we need.

The chruch offering yet ANOTHER opinion of Tradition, Natural Law and Dogma and Disipline.

Why don't we just blow a hole in our collective heads. ?

[Maynard Keenan]

I'm afraid of what would come of a third vatican council. We could get something going in the other direction.

[boughtwithaprice]

Remember the prophecy of St Malachy? The next Pope is said to be the last Pope in theory. Peter the Roman; maybe he calls Vatican III and it spells the end of the Catholic church? I hope not, but things get crazy anymore.

There is still debate whether humanae vitae is infallible teaching or not and whether Catholics can dissent from non-infallible teaching. I don't think that a change in the teaching on birth control would be the end of the papacy, as some would think that it is.

[Michie]

Hi everyone. :wave: Do we need a third Vatican Council? I am of the opinion that we do and that this one should bring the church up to modern times by eliminating the rules on birth control, women priests, gay priests, and other rules. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening as long as we have a conservative pope around. What is your opinion?
It's my understanding that even the Pope cannot go against established teachings & traditions of the Church. Even if the Pope wanted to, he has an army of theologians of the Church to go through. Cannot go against Scripture & tradition.

I wouldn't hold my breath. :)

[Michie]

Remember the prophecy of St Malachy? The next Pope is said to be the last Pope in theory. Peter the Roman; maybe he calls Vatican III and it spells the end of the Catholic church? I hope not, but things get crazy anymore.

There is still debate whether humanae vitae is infallible teaching or not and whether Catholics can dissent from non-infallible teaching. I don't think that a change in the teaching on birth control would be the end of the papacy, as some would think that it is.
I thought the St. Malachy prophecy had been pooh, poohed long ago.

[Protinus]

We need to undo the erosion of VII first imo...and fulfill it's promise before VIII.

[Michie]

What erosion do you see? The only problem I see from the books I've gotten on the subject is that it is woefully misinterpreted by the trads as well as the liberals. It is a very misunderstood document on all sides.

[Miss Shelby]

It takes a century to even see the positive effects of a council. It's only been roughly 30 years. No. Keep your pants on, you won't be seeing another council any time soon.

[Michie]

It takes a century to even see the positive effects of a council. It's only been roughly 30 years. No. Keep your pants on, you won't be seeing another council any time soon.
*pulls pants back up*:blush:

[boughtwithaprice]

It takes a century to even see the positive effects of a council. It's only been roughly 30 years. No. Keep your pants on, you won't be seeing another council any time soon.
on what do you base this remark? It sounds reasonable, but there is really little basis for it. Maybe in the middle ages where communication was much more limited and the spread of accurate information was slow, it may have taken a century, but this is the 21st century, and information is spread in seconds, not weeks to months to years:)

oh and btw, 2007 - 1965 = 42 , not 30 ;):P

[Miss Shelby]

on what do you base this remark? It sounds reasonable, but there is really little basis for it. Maybe in the middle ages where communication was much more limited and the spread of accurate information was slow, it may have taken a century, but this is the 21st century, and information is spread in seconds, not weeks to months to years:)

oh and btw, 2007 - 1965 = 42 , not 30 ;):P
Dude, the Church does not move at normal speed and it never will. It took nine hundred years for the Church to figure out a definition of the trinity. My common sense tells me this, that the passage of time (not nanoseconds, Mork)-- but the passage of real time is going to show the fruits of the council. And actually the speeed of light that we travel in today could actually hinder things, as people are going to be passing their erroneous thoughts ideas what not faster, and screwing up at record speed! Therefore it might actually take 5 centuries to see the good. LOL, you're so funny Jerome. Things like prayer and waiting on Revelation from the Lord take time, God's not up there working on his high speed internet to get things taken care of. LOL. :) Thanks for pointing out my pitiful math skills.

[fragmentsofdreams]

on what do you base this remark? It sounds reasonable, but there is really little basis for it. Maybe in the middle ages where communication was much more limited and the spread of accurate information was slow, it may have taken a century, but this is the 21st century, and information is spread in seconds, not weeks to months to years:)

oh and btw, 2007 - 1965 = 42 , not 30 ;):P

It still takes time to digest.

I think we need some more time to discern the path Vatican II has put us on and to relax the tensions that currently exist.

I'd also like for our next council to be a reconciliation with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The questions involved there are much more fundamental and need to be addressed first.

[JasonV]

I would agree with those who say that Councils take a loooong time to digest and interpret. Even in our age of rapid communication!

[PaladinGirl]

It still takes time to digest.

I think we need some more time to discern the path Vatican II has put us on and to relax the tensions that currently exist.

I'd also like for our next council to be a reconciliation with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The questions involved there are much more fundamental and need to be addressed first.
Yeah but will we ever actually see a reconciliation with our Orthodox brothers and sisters? Many of the Orthodox say that there will not be a reconciliation until Catholics become Orthodox and many Catholics say just the opposite. I honestly don't know that we'll ever see a reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholics.

[boughtwithaprice]

Dude, the Church does not move at normal speed and it never will. It took nine hundred years for the Church to figure out a definition of the trinity. My common sense tells me this, that the passage of time (not nanoseconds, Mork)-- but the passage of real time is going to show the fruits of the council. And actually the speeed of light that we travel in today could actually hinder things, as people are going to be passing their erroneous thoughts ideas what not faster, and screwing up at record speed! Therefore it might actually take 5 centuries to see the good. LOL, you're so funny Jerome. Things like prayer and waiting on Revelation from the Lord take time, God's not up there working on his high speed internet to get things taken care of. LOL. :) Thanks for pointing out my pitiful math skills.
you are funny too, Michelle^_^ I just pointed out your math skills because 42 is the answer to life the universe and everything. I just found that ironic.

Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy can help

Chances of council having positive effect in immediate aftermath, 100,000,000: 1................infinite improbability drive activated

[JasonV]

I might even argue that we don't need a Vatican III, but we do need a true Ecumenical Council of all Apostolic Churches!

[fragmentsofdreams]

Yeah but will we ever actually see a reconciliation with our Orthodox brothers and sisters? Many of the Orthodox say that there will not be a reconciliation until Catholics become Orthodox and many Catholics say just the opposite. I honestly don't know that we'll ever see a reconciliation between the Orthodox and Catholics.

It will take humility on both sides. Worrying about who wins the theological debate is prideful. It is more important that we grow in faith, love, and understanding not as Catholics nor Orthodox but as Christians of the one, holy, apostolic, catholic Church.

[Michie]

It will take humility on both sides. Worrying about who wins the theological debate is prideful. It is more important that we grow in faith, love, and understanding not as Catholics nor Orthodox but as Christians of the one, holy, apostolic, catholic Church.
Internet award of the day. :)

[Miss Shelby]

Internet award of the day. :)
Really? I thought my 'keep your pants up' remark was much more awe inspiring. All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

[MikeK]

Internet award of the day.

I was going to nominate the chubby lightsaber kid.

[Michie]

Really? I thought my 'keep your pants up' remark was much more awe inspiring. All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.
LOL! You're so twisted. That's why I like you. :D

[Fantine]

Hi everyone. :wave: Do we need a third Vatican Council? I am of the opinion that we do and that this one should bring the church up to modern times by eliminating the rules on birth control, women priests, gay priests, and other rules. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening as long as we have a conservative pope around. What is your opinion?
Read "The Next Christianity." The author, a religious historian, says that population shifts in the Church to South America and Africa mean that the Church is growing more conservative.

He feels there could be a "counter reformation." Let me see if I can find the quote from the Atlantic Monthly article.

Pretty scary stuff.....

For thirty years Northern liberals have dreamed of a Third Vatican Council to complete the revolution launched by Pope John XXIII—one that would usher in a new age of ecclesiastical democracy and lay empowerment. It would be a bitter irony for the liberals if the council were convened but turned out to be a conservative, Southern-dominated affair that imposed moral and theological litmus tests intolerable to North Americans and Europeans—if, in other words, it tried to implement not a new Reformation but a new Counter-Reformation. (In that sense we would be witnessing not a new Wittenberg but, rather, a new Council of Trent—that is, a strongly traditional gathering that would restate the Church's older ideology and attempt to set it in stone for all future ages.

If we look beyond the liberal West, we see that another Christian revolution, quite different from the one being called for in affluent American suburbs and upscale urban parishes, is already in progress. Worldwide, Christianity is actually moving toward supernaturalism and neo-orthodoxy, and in many ways toward the ancient world view expressed in the New Testament: a vision of Jesus as the embodiment of divine power, who overcomes the evil forces that inflict calamity and sickness upon the human race. In the global South (the areas that we often think of primarily as the Third World) huge and growing Christian populations—currently 480 million in Latin America, 360 million in Africa, and 313 million in Asia, compared with 260 million in North America—now make up what the Catholic scholar Walbert Buhlmann has called the Third Church, a form of Christianity as distinct as Protestantism or Orthodoxy, and one that is likely to become dominant in the faith. ......

Of course, American reformers also dream of a restored early Church; but whereas Americans imagine a Church freed from hierarchy, superstition, and dogma, Southerners look back to one filled with spiritual power and able to exorcise the demonic forces that cause sickness and poverty.....

To adapt a popular activist slogan, the Catholic Church not only thinks globally, it acts globally. That approach is going to have weighty consequences. On present evidence, a Southern-dominated Catholic Church is likely to react traditionally to the issues that most concern American and European reformers: matters of theology and devotion, sexual ethics and gender roles, and, most fundamentally, issues of authority within the Church......



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200210/jenkins

This is tremendously depressing, I know.....

I almost think that the best thing one can do in such circumstances is what my husband calls staying "under the radar....." If you are fortunate enough to be in a liberal parish with liberal priests, just don't make enough waves to bring the forces of primitivism down upon you....

At least that's what Jenkins seems to think...

[JasonV]

Fantine,

The famous "Global South"! Ahhhh!

[PaladinGirl]

Read "The Next Christianity." The author, a religious historian, says that population shifts in the Church to South America and Africa mean that the Church is growing more conservative.

He feels there could be a "counter reformation." Let me see if I can find the quote from the Atlantic Monthly article.

Pretty scary stuff.....





http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200210/jenkins

This is tremendously depressing, I know.....

I almost think that the best thing one can do in such circumstances is what my husband calls staying "under the radar....." If you are fortunate enough to be in a liberal parish with liberal priests, just don't make enough waves to bring the forces of primitivism down upon you....

At least that's what Jenkins seems to think...
Wow. That is tremendously depressing. Just how much more conservative can the Church get?!