US 'evangelicals:' Divide the Land of Israel

[Torah]

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2077 (http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2077)

By Stan Goodenough
July 30, 2007
The issue of where to take a stand concerning the Land and People of Israel continues to split Christians who choose to reinterpret the scriptures through liberal and socialist lenses from those who insist that the Bible is the unchanging Word of God.
In a letter published in the Sunday edition of the New York Times, 34 self-described "evangelical leaders" wrote to US President George W. Bush, urging him to forge ahead with his plan to implement a "two state solution" to the "Palestinian"-Israeli conflict.
The document appears to have been drawn up in reaction to the statements of high-profile evangelicals like John Hagee who have recently asserted anew that tens of millions of American evangelicals identify themselves as Christian Zionists and oppose the globally-supported effort to establish an Arab state on the biblical heartland and national cradle of the Jewish people.
Twisting both the meaning of scripture and historic fact to support their position, the signatories to the letter - who claimed to speak on behalf of "large numbers of evangelicals throughout the US" - sought to "encourage" Bush with the assertion that not "all American evangelicals are opposed to a two-state solution and creation of a new Palestinian state that includes the vast majority of the West Bank [sic]."
They had written "to thank [Bush] for [his] efforts (including the major address on July 16) to reinvigorate the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations to achieve a lasting peace in the region.
"We affirm your clear call for a two-state solution. We urge that your administration not grow weary in the time it has left in office to utilize the vast influence of America to demonstrate creative, consistent and determined US leadership to create a new future for Israelis and Palestinians [sic]."
The letter continued:
"We also write to correct a serious misperception among some people including some US policymakers that all American evangelicals are opposed to a two-state solution and creation of a new Palestinian state that includes the vast majority of the West Bank [sic].
"Nothing could be further from the truth."
The writers said they support justice for both Israelis and Palestinian Arabs.
"We hope this support will embolden you and your administration to proceed confidently and forthrightly in negotiations with both sides in the region."
Employing a favorite weapon of those wanting to disguise their anti-Israel sentiments, the co-writers said it was "precisely as evangelical Christians committed to the full teaching of the Scriptures [that] we know that blessing and loving people (including Jews and the present State of Israel) does not mean withholding criticism when it is warranted."
Typically - this "fairminded" criticism focuses on Israel's "theft" of "Arab" lands, its "abuse" of Arabs' "human rights" and its "rebellion" against international dictates and resolutions condemning the Jewish state.
The letter focused on Israel's need to "to remember, as she deals with her neighbor Palestinians, the profound teaching on justice that the Hebrew prophets proclaimed so forcefully as an inestimably precious gift to the whole world."
There was no mention of the "Palestinians'" need to remember that life is sacred, no call for their barbaric and repeated acts of terrorism against the Jews they hated so much to be acknowledged and repudiated.
The signatories include Bible college chancellors, theological seminary presidents and professors as well as church pastors, leaders of organizations like World Vision, Evangelicals for Social Action, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Center of Christian-Muslim Engagement for Peace and Justice, and the editor of Christianity Today.
Appealing to "historical honesty," they said it compelled them to recognize that "both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine."
But observers note that these professing Christians are being historically dishonest.
Records prove that at most, Arabs of any kind can lay claim to a few hundred years of family ties to this land. There has never in history been a nation nor a country called Palestine.
The Jews' claim alone goes back nearly 4,000 years; they became a nation here and they built a country here, not once but three times in history.
The letter attempts to equate the victims of Arab violence with the victims of Israel's response to that violence, and argues that, in order to achieve peace, "both sides must give up some of their competing, incompatible claims [and] accept each other's right to exist."
To achieve that goal, the US "must provide robust leadership within the Quartet to reconstitute the Middle East roadmap, whose full implementation would guarantee the security of the State of Israel and the viability of a Palestinian State."
Just what authority they base their conviction on is not clear.
What is clear is that these leaders appear unaware that their very alliance with the God-rejecting forces of this world - the fact that they support a "solution" prescribed by a secular- humanistic 'global village' - serves as a clear warning to true Christians that they are in error.



http://www.jnewswire.com/topic/christians_against_israel (http://www.jnewswire.com/topic/christians_against_israel)

[Anichai]

Un-Believe-Able. :O You have to be the wisest person i've ever met. ""What is clear is that these leaders appear unaware that their very alliance with the God-rejecting forces of this world - the fact that they support a "solution" prescribed by a secular- humanistic 'global village' - serves as a clear warning to true Christians that they are in error.""
And wow! The pope wants it to be Palestine. I really need to get dressed up for the Rapture. I'm not sure if all evangelical christians are divided in their attitude to Israel. Just the uninformed ones "plead for palestine".
P.S. - Respect. For being a Messianic Jew.

[HadassahSukkot]

grrrrr!

no words, just frustration...

[philmwri]

First all of all don't expect the pope to be a friend of Israel.

Think about this very true statement by Nehemiah Gordon
One hundred years may not seem like a long time, but we must consider that before the founding of the PLO in 1964 the word "Palestinian" had never been applied to Arabs. Today there are 5 million people who speak of themselves as "Palestinians" and talk about their 5000-year history. National identities can be created in very short periods of time.

Anyone who says that the so-called palestinians should get the land back or deserve it back it going against the tanach and new testament.So when the christian say oh well the palestinians desrve the land back show them this map.

I'm also suprised that christians don't stand up for the jews,like when the palestinians say that the jewish temple was a figment of our imagination even the new testament mentions the existence of the temple and that the land was settled by jews.

Those christians are forgetting that god will judge them as the prophet joel tells us.

Joel 4:1-8
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. 3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. 4 And also what are ye to Me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the regions of Philistia? will ye render retribution on My behalf? and if ye render retribution on My behalf, swiftly, speedily will I return your retribution upon your own head. 5 Forasmuch as ye have taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into your temples My goodly treasures; 6 the children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the sons of Jevanim, that ye might remove them far from their border; 7 behold, I will stir them up out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your retribution upon your own head; 8 and I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the men of Sheba, to a nation far off; for the LORD hath spoken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:First_century_palestine.gif

Even back in the first century the knew what the boundaries of the holy land were.

Arabs weren't in jerusalem until 638CE when the byzantine govenor gave up the land to the arab caliphate.

The british mandate was spilt into two states palestine was going to be for the jews and transjordan for arabs.So the palestinians already have a homeland.

The palestinians have had 59 years to get their act together,they haven't done it

Some people are saying that zionism is the root of all evil,to be honest you don't have to be a zionist to know that the bible says that the land will forever belong to the jewish people.

Remember what kind david said in psalms 83 how the nations around israel to be forgotten.
1 A Song, a Psalm of Asaph.
2 O God, keep not Thou silence; hold not Thy peace, and be not still, O God.
3 For, lo, Thine enemies are in an uproar; and they that hate Thee have lifted up the head.
4 They hold crafty converse against Thy people, and take counsel against Thy treasured ones.
5 They have said: 'Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.'
6 For they have consulted together with one consent; against Thee do they make a covenant;
7 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab, and the Hagrites;
8 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
9 Assyria also is joined with them; they have been an arm to the children of Lot. Selah
10 Do Thou unto them as unto Midian; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook Kishon;
11 Who were destroyed at En-dor; they became as dung for the earth.
12 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, and like Zebah and Zalmunna all their princes;
13 Who said: 'Let us take to ourselves in possession the habitations of God.'
14 O my God, make them like the whirling dust; as stubble before the wind.
15 As the fire that burneth the forest, and as the flame that setteth the mountains ablaze;
16 So pursue them with Thy tempest, and affright them with Thy storm.
17 Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek Thy name, O LORD.
18 Let them be ashamed and affrighted for ever; yea, let them be abashed and perish;
19 That they may know that it is Thou alone whose name is the LORD, {N}
the Most High over all the earth. {P}

Psalms 79 and 80 are prayers for israel's restoration.Psalms 83 is prayer against connspiracy against israel.

Isaiah 4 talks about Jersualem's glorious future.

Torah, these christians should read their bible becuase the last time i read about the God's plan for the land of israel it didn't include a palestinian state.

[Anichai]

True, but what you have to understand is that the Pope is not Christian. The Pope invaded Jerusalem in the crusades. He wants a "Palestine". Hard to believe he is the 'vicar' of Christ. I'm an evangelical christian from Northern Ireland and around my way there are Israel Flags and stars of david on walls of Christian houses. I seen a mural stating "Israel is Not alone!" However just down the road where the Roman Catholic community is there is an abundance of palestinian flags and murals. I seen one saying "The Jews killed Jesus! Jesus is coming back!" My point is that Christians are/will be united behind the Jews. After all, if it makes you feel any better, its not the jews or christians the muslims are trying to exterminate. It's both. :D

Pagan sects like the Roman Emp- I mean Catholic Church are just not christian. I mean. What would Jesus do? We're all in the same boat Philmri

[Anichai]

I don't know how Christian you are Philmri, maybe you've read, but I stayed up one night and watched the news about Israel and the Quartet and stuff but Revelations is really starting to unfold. Peace between the Jews and Muslims will come. A seven year covenant. The whole Fatah government/Israel releasing prisoners really does look like the pieces are being set up for the End Times. Of course in that time Messiah comes and the Jews believe. Regardless of whether it's the second time or the first. Plus it'll be easier this time seeing as he actually is coming on a white horse with a sword :)

[visionary]

Usually what will happen is those who wish to divide Israel as those who end up divided...

[ContentInHim]

I saw that Condi is going to meet with Abbas today and give him yet more money with which to buy weapons to ... shoot at Israeli Jews! :doh: Do we not ever learn? Apparently not. :(

[philmwri]

I don't think that we are that close to the end times.

Giving the Arabs weapons is comparable to giving the kkk or the neo-nazis weapons no one would do that.

[DarkNLovely]

What is the Jewish/Messianic view as far as what do as far as the Palestinians are concearned? Something has do be done, because this is crazy!

[HadassahSukkot]

there are many different streams of thought to be honest.

Mine lines up with a few Israelis I have met before... but not as hardline as Kahane was.

Those who want to stay and live in a peaceable manner, so be it.
Those who choose to declare war on the State of Israel, do what needs be done to protect innocent lives. If that means hurting and then jailing for extended periods of time.. go for it.
If that means you had to get a sniper out or raze empty homes, so be it.

Pulling out of Judea and Shomron--- no way in heck.

[nasa1]

One day pro-Israel Christians will wake up and realize that Bush was never their friend - yet they voted him in, because they wanted a Christian President..

nasa1

[Anichai]

Christians and Jews are in the same boat. We're all frigged. It's only a matter of time before true, yet Palestian-viewed Christians wash up on the shores of Israel and realise where their loyalties lie. With the Lord. Who is father to the land of Israel.

[nasa1]

On one hand, I can understand why some people want to see the Palestinians have their own land. They believe Yeshua to be a pacifist and so want this kind of peace.

On the other hand, I know that Christian Palestinians are being railroaded for the Israeli cause, and that is wrong. It is wrong when pro-Israel Christians turn a blind eye to their Palestinian Christian brothers just to let Jews have the land to themselves - and besides, the Torah does not preach that at all! The Torah preaches that aliens should be allowed to live in the land as a felllow Israelite.


nasa1

[SharonL]

http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2077 (http://www.jnewswire.com/article/2077)

By Stan Goodenough
July 30, 2007
The issue of where to take a stand concerning the Land and People of Israel continues to split Christians who choose to reinterpret the scriptures through liberal and socialist lenses from those who insist that the Bible is the unchanging Word of God.
In a letter published in the Sunday edition of the New York Times, 34 self-described "evangelical leaders" wrote to US President George W. Bush, urging him to forge ahead with his plan to implement a "two state solution" to the "Palestinian"-Israeli conflict.
The document appears to have been drawn up in reaction to the statements of high-profile evangelicals like John Hagee who have recently asserted anew that tens of millions of American evangelicals identify themselves as Christian Zionists and oppose the globally-supported effort to establish an Arab state on the biblical heartland and national cradle of the Jewish people.
Twisting both the meaning of scripture and historic fact to support their position, the signatories to the letter - who claimed to speak on behalf of "large numbers of evangelicals throughout the US" - sought to "encourage" Bush with the assertion that not "all American evangelicals are opposed to a two-state solution and creation of a new Palestinian state that includes the vast majority of the West Bank [sic]."
They had written "to thank [Bush] for [his] efforts (including the major address on July 16) to reinvigorate the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations to achieve a lasting peace in the region.
"We affirm your clear call for a two-state solution. We urge that your administration not grow weary in the time it has left in office to utilize the vast influence of America to demonstrate creative, consistent and determined US leadership to create a new future for Israelis and Palestinians [sic]."
The letter continued:
"We also write to correct a serious misperception among some people including some US policymakers that all American evangelicals are opposed to a two-state solution and creation of a new Palestinian state that includes the vast majority of the West Bank [sic].
"Nothing could be further from the truth."
The writers said they support justice for both Israelis and Palestinian Arabs.
"We hope this support will embolden you and your administration to proceed confidently and forthrightly in negotiations with both sides in the region."
Employing a favorite weapon of those wanting to disguise their anti-Israel sentiments, the co-writers said it was "precisely as evangelical Christians committed to the full teaching of the Scriptures [that] we know that blessing and loving people (including Jews and the present State of Israel) does not mean withholding criticism when it is warranted."
Typically - this "fairminded" criticism focuses on Israel's "theft" of "Arab" lands, its "abuse" of Arabs' "human rights" and its "rebellion" against international dictates and resolutions condemning the Jewish state.
The letter focused on Israel's need to "to remember, as she deals with her neighbor Palestinians, the profound teaching on justice that the Hebrew prophets proclaimed so forcefully as an inestimably precious gift to the whole world."
There was no mention of the "Palestinians'" need to remember that life is sacred, no call for their barbaric and repeated acts of terrorism against the Jews they hated so much to be acknowledged and repudiated.
The signatories include Bible college chancellors, theological seminary presidents and professors as well as church pastors, leaders of organizations like World Vision, Evangelicals for Social Action, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the Center of Christian-Muslim Engagement for Peace and Justice, and the editor of Christianity Today.
Appealing to "historical honesty," they said it compelled them to recognize that "both Israelis and Palestinians have legitimate rights stretching back for millennia to the lands of Israel/Palestine."
But observers note that these professing Christians are being historically dishonest.
Records prove that at most, Arabs of any kind can lay claim to a few hundred years of family ties to this land. There has never in history been a nation nor a country called Palestine.
The Jews' claim alone goes back nearly 4,000 years; they became a nation here and they built a country here, not once but three times in history.
The letter attempts to equate the victims of Arab violence with the victims of Israel's response to that violence, and argues that, in order to achieve peace, "both sides must give up some of their competing, incompatible claims [and] accept each other's right to exist."
To achieve that goal, the US "must provide robust leadership within the Quartet to reconstitute the Middle East roadmap, whose full implementation would guarantee the security of the State of Israel and the viability of a Palestinian State."
Just what authority they base their conviction on is not clear.
What is clear is that these leaders appear unaware that their very alliance with the God-rejecting forces of this world - the fact that they support a "solution" prescribed by a secular- humanistic 'global village' - serves as a clear warning to true Christians that they are in error.



http://www.jnewswire.com/topic/christians_against_israel (http://www.jnewswire.com/topic/christians_against_israel)

With reference to John Hagee being one of the signatures to have Israel split - this is wrong information. John Hagee is a friend of Israel and I just heard him this past week say that Washington better wake up because if they try to get Israel to give up any of their land - God will deal with America.

I listen to him every week and he has never spoken anything but all for Israel - he supports Israel in every way.

[talmidim]

The context of these verses is decidedly in the last days.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

The parting of the land is given as a reason or trigger event for His coming. Rejoice, for your redemption draweth nigh...

[HadassahSukkot]

Just another thought to throw out there...



Ezekiel 34
1 Then this message came to me from the Lord: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds, the leaders of Israel. Give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn’t shepherds feed their sheep? 3 You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve. 4 You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. 5 So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal. 6 They have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them. 7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, you abandoned my flock and left them to be attacked by every wild animal. And though you were my shepherds, you didn’t search for my sheep when they were lost. You took care of yourselves and left the sheep to starve. 9 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them responsible for what has happened to my flock. I will take away their right to feed the flock, and I will stop them from feeding themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be their prey.



Something people tend to forget... Pastor is just another word for Shepherd.

[HadassahSukkot]

On one hand, I can understand why some people want to see the Palestinians have their own land. They believe Yeshua to be a pacifist and so want this kind of peace.

Which is what happens when you divide the witnesses (testaments) and say they do not compliment each other, or that one has "passed away" and "good for stories and understanding how life was, but it doesn't apply to me/us.."

You begin to have a mentality that there are "two minds" of G-d, one that is harsh and cruel, and one that is peaceful and kind, and pacifistic.

You carry over the second to Y'shua, because you forget (or simply fail to read and study) all the passages that say what The Messiah will be doing when regathering and protecting Israel, and meteing out punishment for the nations...

:(

There are some however, who do not do this, but have been taught dreadful things about Israel, or simple replacement theology, so having Israel around, somehow ruins their concept of prophesy, because it all applies to them, or their sect :scratch:


We need to do what we can in this life, but rest assured, G-d will sort it all out in the end.



Ecclesiastes:
9 History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. 10 Sometimes people say, “Here is something new!” But actually it is old; nothing is ever truly new. 11 We don’t remember what happened in the past, and in future generations, no one will remember what we are doing now....

...16 I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt! 17 I said to myself, “In due season God will judge everyone, both good and bad, for all their deeds.”

[Henaynei]

I looked at the list of signatories and it is notable for it's absence of any mainstream "evangelical" leaders ... it reads like the World Council of Churches for the evangelical community

[Anichai]

The Lord will return and annihilate the enemies of Israel. And yes, many many western "christians" will be misled to believe Satan is the one on the white horse. It's part of anti-christ's decietful ways. I will not stand and watch Israel bombarded with rockets and false accusations.

[nasa1]

Which is what happens when you divide the witnesses (testaments) and say they do not compliment each other, or that one has "passed away" and "good for stories and understanding how life was, but it doesn't apply to me/us.."

You begin to have a mentality that there are "two minds" of G-d, one that is harsh and cruel, and one that is peaceful and kind, and pacifistic.

You carry over the second to Y'shua, because you forget (or simply fail to read and study) all the passages that say what The Messiah will be doing when regathering and protecting Israel, and meteing out punishment for the nations...

:(

There are some however, who do not do this, but have been taught dreadful things about Israel, or simple replacement theology, so having Israel around, somehow ruins their concept of prophesy, because it all applies to them, or their sect :scratch:


We need to do what we can in this life, but rest assured, G-d will sort it all out in the end.



Ecclesiastes:
9 History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. 10 Sometimes people say, “Here is something new!” But actually it is old; nothing is ever truly new. 11 We don’t remember what happened in the past, and in future generations, no one will remember what we are doing now....

...16 I also noticed that under the sun there is evil in the courtroom. Yes, even the courts of law are corrupt! 17 I said to myself, “In due season God will judge everyone, both good and bad, for all their deeds.”

Hello,The Bible does say that the Old Covenent of sacrificing animals for sin has passed away, but it does not say that the promises under the Old Covenent have passed away - G-d has promises Israel - whoever they are - that they will be delivered, and we must stand by that.nasa1