What do you do when...

[desmalia]

OK, I'm sure we've all come across this issue at some point on CF. I'm curious how everyone here deals with such a delicate situation.

I've had a number of experiences in which I was discussing with various CF members who claim to be Christian. But, at some point in the conversation I've become aware that they do not have any idea what it really is to be a Christian, and that they likely don't even know Christ. I know there is a big rule on CF that you're not allowed to ever say someone is not a Christian. This is even more frustrating now that anyone can claim to be whatever they want, and everyone else is supposed to just accept it without question. I find this horribly restrictive in ministry. How do we ever help these lost, deceived people to see the truth? I'm not interested in name-calling, etc. (ie. "I'm saved, you're not! Neener neener neener", etc.) I'm talking about real ministry. There are so many people in this world (and certainly on CF) who don't even know they're not really saved. What do we do? Break the rules for the sake of that soul? Or is there a way to be honest without breaking the rules?

And for that matter, how do you handle this IRL with people who claim to be Christian, but live a lifestyle that suggests otherwise? I know there are procedures for this in the church, but what about in other situations?

[WarEagle]

OK, I'm sure we've all come across this issue at some point on CF. I'm curious how everyone here deals with such a delicate situation.

I've had a number of experiences in which I was discussing with various CF members who claim to be Christian. But, at some point in the conversation I've become aware that they do not have any idea what it really is to be a Christian, and that they likely don't even know Christ. I know there is a big rule on CF that you're not allowed to ever say someone is not a Christian. This is even more frustrating now that anyone can claim to be whatever they want, and everyone else is supposed to just accept it without question. I find this horribly restrictive in ministry. How do we ever help these lost, deceived people to see the truth? I'm not interested in name-calling, etc. (ie. "I'm saved, you're not! Neener neener neener", etc.) I'm talking about real ministry. There are so many people in this world (and certainly on CF) who don't even know they're not really saved. What do we do? Break the rules for the sake of that soul? Or is there a way to be honest without breaking the rules?

I really don't think you can tell the truth here anymore and not get into trouble.

Take a minute and read many of the things that Jesus said and ask yourself if they'd be allowed here. Jesus would have been booted out of here so fast it would make your head spin.

We're called to tell the truth in love, not to win a popularity context on an internet message board so that's where my first priority has to lie.

And for that matter, how do you handle this IRL with people who claim to be Christian, but live a lifestyle that suggests otherwise?

I share the Gospel with them, same as I would do for anybody else who's living a sinful lifestyle.

[Hentenza]

If one does not know Christ, one cannot defend Christ. I have encountered several people like what you describe and found their arguments to lack the truth of the HS and have called them out on it. I don't call anyone names nor do I belittle them. The bible tells us to be patient so I do my best to obey.
Also, ever notice how folks like that will never stay on topic? They can't because they must deflect the issue that typically they are not well suited to defend.
Be patient, don't appear hostile, avoid trigger words, pray before answering, stay on topic, use the HS, and follow Christ command to love one another.:wave:

[desmalia]

I really don't think you can tell the truth here anymore and not get into trouble.

Take a minute and read many of the things that Jesus said and ask yourself if they'd be allowed here. Jesus would have been booted out of here so fast it would make your head spin.

We're called to tell the truth in love, not to win a popularity context on an internet message board so that's where my first priority has to lie.Agreed.

I share the Gospel with them, same as I would do for anybody else who's living a sinful lifestyle.And since they already believe they are saved, how do they usually react when you share the Gospel with them? Are they offended? If so, how do you respond?

If one does not know Christ, one cannot defend Christ. I have encountered several people like what you describe and found their arguments to lack the truth of the HS and have called them out on it. I don't call anyone names nor do I belittle them. The bible tells us to be patient so I do my best to obey.
Also, ever notice how folks like that will never stay on topic? They can't because they must deflect the issue that typically they are not well suited to defend.
Be patient, don't appear hostile, avoid trigger words, pray before answering, stay on topic, use the HS, and follow Christ command to love one another.:wave:Wise words. I agree. And yes, I have noticed they will jump to any number of other topic in order to draw attention away from the real issue. It's like a mad dance.

[Hiker]

The condition of watered down christianity is what is bringing down the church. I don't want to come across as a super legalistic type but, why is it that "christians" can dress the way they do, partake it the wordly activities that they do, come to church whenever they want and still call them selves "christians"

We have had kids on our bible quiz teams that can quote you lots of lines of R rated movies, yet have trouble with the material they are working on for the team.

What should you do or say?????

[WarEagle]

And since they already believe they are saved, how do they usually react when you share the Gospel with them? Are they offended? If so, how do you respond?

My philosphy is that it's better to share the Gospel with a saved man, even if it's redundant, than not to share the Gospel with a lost man at all.

If it's somebody who believes he's a Christian, then they'll have one of three reactions:

They'll either be convicted by the Holy Spirit and become contrite and remorseful for their sins, or they'll nod their heads and agree with everything you say just so that you'll go away, or they'll say, "how dare you!"

The fake Christian is easy to spot in this case because he's the one who becomes offended, which tells me that he's relying on his own righteousness and not God's.

A Christian who has the Holy Spirit living in them is going to be horrified by their sin and will welcome the correction.

[BigNorsk]

What a good question!

First I admit that it's really hard to know for sure. Partly because communication tends to be so brief and also because people aren't really trained to be careful in what they write or say, they often just don't even realize what they are writing. But that said, in those cases, and you are correct that they are not rare here, I try to explain the difference between law and gospel, and really share the gospel. I haven't really seen people just go oh my gosh I never realized that! But at the same time I trust that the word of God does not return empty and so I try to plant a seed and trust that someone comes along to harvest later.

Marv

[SpiritDriven]

Just as scripture tells us.... God does all things after the counsel of his own will....he hardens whom he desires, and shows mercy to whom he desires.

God is actualy declared to be the Saviour of all people on more than one occasion in scripture.....if he has blinded some for a season to this, then that is to serve a higher purpose of his.....

Plant the seed..... God and Jesus will do the rest, remember....it is not about the man who wills or the man who runs, but about God who has mercy...


Grace and Peace to you......always

[salida]

Desmalia--

Jesus said to inspect the fruits - this is what counts. If they arn't christians- they will be accountable to God. Its what the Bible says - not what people claim. One can't debate and argue - we are to be inspectors only and pray for those who arn't christians in nature.

[Nagev]

I really don't think you can tell the truth here anymore and not get into trouble.

Especially in church!

Take a minute and read many of the things that Jesus said and ask yourself if they'd be allowed here. Jesus would have been booted out of here so fast it would make your head spin.

He wouldn't even be allowed to be in church, especially if the worship leaders had it their way, not to mention the other Christians there! Jesus is coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle, but she is still out back, playing in the mud puddles and thinking she's in church.

[cubanito]

...I'm not interested in name-calling, etc. (ie. "I'm saved, you're not! Neener neener neener", etc.)...

You are correct that "neener" is an inapropiate response.

The correct response would be either "nany nany pooh pooh" or the more erudite "you smell bad and your mother dresses you funny."

The later response, BTW, was my wife's opinion upon first meeting me (as I had not showered or changed my ripped shorts in a week, REALLY), she also thought something along the lines of "animal" and I don't mean like your furry kitten Desmalia, more like my Hippo with indigestion...

Oh, I have no idea what is or is not allowed on CF anymore, and I don't much care. Tell them the Gospel and if they don't like it it's not your problem.

We are called to be WITNESSES, (in Greek that is the word MARTYRION, as in martyr, since a true presentation of the Gospel on CF or off it generally makes MARTYRS). What the person does is God's problem, not ours. Tell 'em the Truth, as nice as you can stand to do it, but tell 'em.

Is there a time to shut up, like in the middle of a Vancouver "Gay Pride" parade? Yeah well, what can I say, I shut up quite a bit myself. Nothing we ever do is Good Enough it seems...

yet, fortunately, nothing we can ever do since our rebirth is bad enough either.

JR

[KorahRose]

I'm so happy I found this thread (and really the whole fundamentalist forum). I needed this so much. :)

[daniel777]

actually, i think it's very danferous to make the claim of people claiming to be christian "YOU ARE NOT SAVED". if they honestly 'know' Him it doesn't matter what they currently think. i'm not saying there's not a 'born again' KABOOM instant change, but i am saying people grow, christianity is a walk and sometimes very slow with many vallys and mtn tops.

in my opinion we should never tell someone they are saved (thats part of what got america into this rut). and never tell someone they aren't. in my op its ok to assume the former, but not the latter. (consider them saved until their actions are brought into question, never assume them guilty, we are not God) we can't run around skeptical of everione. there has to be trust, thats not to say im not all for 'set apart the immoral brother'. but we do that so he will find his way back onto the path or maby discover it for the first time. we can't go around seperating the wheet from the chafe (if i spd it right :D ) in our ignorance we might just uproot something that should have stayed in the ground.

however, i do think we should warn them of what they could possibly face based on their 'fruits'. but warn them/ go to them as a brother or sister, b/c ultimately, you don't know. and if they get mad, and call u names (we should start a thread of all the names we've been called...but don't know if it's appropriate... :P ) just bear it. usually though this isn't as severe if u approach them seperately. which u should always do first.

[daniel777]

i also realize how restrictive these rules are. its like the whole 'church'....has replaced 'test yourself in light of scripture to see that u are in the faith' with just believe and u will be saved. when actually "belief" involves more than just fruitless thaughts and meaningless 'faith'. it involves action and sacrifice. whatever happened to "pick up your cross and follow me." whatever happened to matt7. people love to teach the sermon on the mount but somehow always seem to overlook this part. i hear the beattitudes but never the woes. i thought they were both important. its like modern churchianity is more like a cult than actualy truth based. and this one rule, which i think in most cases is good, has been stretched so out of context that you can't say anything refering to 'contravercial' parts of the bible. and you definitly can't assert that the traits described in these verses actually apply to anyone or any group today. we need to be wise as serpants and gentle as doves when dealing with these people. be nice, hit hard, and do it in such a way that 'doesn't leave you vulnerable/leaves u blameless'

[DerSchweik]

I have to agree. We are not here to accuse our judge other's faiths, or lack of faith, even when it may seem obvious. While Jesus offended many, He did so by speaking His truth in such a way as to be convicting rather than judging, the latter not being His purpose in the first place.

I think we must all remember this site is not a practical venue comparable to having a personal one-on-one study with someone. It simply is not suitable for that purpose. The comments here are often quite brief, the participants largely anonymous, inasmuch as we probably have not met anyone here personally, face-to-face. There is only so much we can accomplish in a forum like this, or any forum like this. It is an awesome resource, don't get me wrong - and much good can come from all our comments and discussions. But we must be realistic concerning the type of venue this is and what exactly we can accomplish here.

Unless someone comes on (and I'm sure many have) who is openly and avowedly non-Christian, how can we truly judge their lifestyle, faith, or heart when we probably don't even know what they look like, where they live, what their backgrounds are, how they dress, etc.?

We should not be too quick to respond to inflammatory statements or comments designed to arouse anger or incite passion. If we feel thus moved, we should pause and pray for wisdom to respond as Christ would have us respond. And if we cannot respond with grace and love, we should simply remain silent and go to some other thread, perhaps to return later, if the Lord wills.

But we also have an awesome opportunity here as well. We have here the luxury of time to think through our responses, to study them ahead of time, to research our answers, to pray for guidance, to seek someone else's wisdom who may be more knowledgeable on a topic. We needn't ever lash out emotionally, thoughtlessly, rashly. We needn't ever be goaded into an un-Christ-like answer.

That many who come here who are not Christians should, I think, be viewed as a blessing. Some, to be sure come to incite and inflame, but some come to learn, to inquire, to seek. They have honest questions and are seeking honest, thoughtful responses. The latter may be led by God to any one of us who might have the answer God would have them receive. For this we should be thankful; but we should also take the opportunity seriously, prayerfully.

Again, in all things, grace.

In Him,

[DIONISIOIIX1]

;) THIS IS HOW I SEE IT. SEEDS ARE PLANTED ALL OVER THE WORLD AT DIFFERENT PLACES AND AT DIFFERENT TIMES THEREFORE THEY ALL GROW AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS.AS THEY GROW SOME ROOTS ARE STRONGER AND GROW FASTER OTHERS NEED MORE PATIANCE LOVE AND NOURISHMENT.

[lismore]

I've had a number of experiences in which I was discussing with various CF members who claim to be Christian. But, at some point in the conversation I've become aware that they do not have any idea what it really is to be a Christian, and that they likely don't even know Christ. I know there is a big rule on CF that you're not allowed to ever say someone is not a Christian. This is even more frustrating now that anyone can claim to be whatever they want, and everyone else is supposed to just accept it without question.

Hey, I know what you mean. I have come accross this.

But the bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:15 that the spiritual man judges all things. We must judge whether someone is saved or not and challenge them. Would it be better to pretend they are a Christian and let them waltz towards a lost eternity? It would not be showing much love to let that happen.

Even Jesus challenged people he was speaking to, e.g the rich young ruler!


The condition of watered down christianity is what is bringing down the church.


I agree.

Paul said he was not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God unto salvation. Today many people preach a watered down gospel, because they dont want to offend people. But people need to be challenged and offended so that they can recognise and repent from their sins.

God Bless:wave:

[VCViking]

This site is going down the tubes.

The owner should be ashamed.

[DerSchweik]

This site is going down the tubes.

The owner should be ashamed.
So change it - post something positive and encouraging or uplifting and edifying!

In Him bro,

[VCViking]

So change it - post something positive and encouraging or uplifting and edifying!

In Him bro,


That's not the problem. It's what I've done for the past year, along with speaking the truth.

This site has gone down the tubes because of the new liberal, compromising rules. In another year or so, there will be barely any true christians left.

[DerSchweik]

That's not the problem. It's what I've done for the past year, along with speaking the truth.

This site has gone down the tubes because of the new liberal, compromising rules. In another year or so, there will be barely any true christians left.

I understand, brother. And I don't like seeing the influx of heresy, immorality, anti-Christian hate, pseudo-Christian support of things like homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, denial of the Bible as God's inspired word, etc. any more than you do. And I've had more than my fill of that here in the short time since I've joined CF.

If the "new rules" have let in those who hate us and the Lord, well I suppose, it only makes it more like the real, everyday world we have to live in anyway.

But, we musn't let that discourage us brother! Hang tough in the Lord!

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own, but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you..." (Jn 15:17ff).


"However, I shall leave a remnant..." (Ezek 6:8)

Brother, there will always be Christians, always a remnant to fall back on when tempted to discouragement - including here. You are never alone, and your works for the Lord will not go unrewarded.

God bless you Viking, and yours.

In Him,

[kobuk]

The search for truth that some people are engaging in here on Foru.ms ,at least in our Fundamentalist Congregation area, is the result of our Creator giving them that love for truth. I still enjoy the occasional honest truthseeker we find visiting us here. Even when they bumble and ask questions and then debate with us in the wrong place. I think in some instances it's the powerful drive for truth that energizes them so much that they disregard the few posting rules we have is the result of their one track minded zeal.

[DerSchweik]

The search for truth that some people are engaging in here on Foru.ms ,at least in our Fundamentalist Congregation area, is the result of our Creator giving them that love for truth. I still enjoy the occasional honest truthseeker we find visiting us here. Even when they bumble and ask questions and then debate with us in the wrong place. I think in some instances it's the powerful drive for truth that energizes them so much that they disregard the few posting rules we have is the result of their one track minded zeal.
Amen - and absolutely!

I don't think we need necessarily exclude any from the forums inasmuch as all represent a greater cross-section of the world as a whole.

And how refreshing it is to find someone who is seeking the truth - even as you suggest, "bumblingly" - regardless of their style, their God-given desire to know the truth must be honored.

Thanks Kobuk!

[kobuk]

Yes it must be honored. What the Holy Spirit is doing takes Biblical Discernment to detect. When we see Him in action our sense of awe of His presence and power will be rekindled. ;)

[lismore]

Yes!

The Holy SPirit is drawing people onto the forum, they are searching for the truth and nothing else but the truth- Jesus Christ will do.

On the other hand there are some savage wolves trying to slip in too.

The wheat and the tares! We should be watchful, but still be the watchmen on the wall:wave:

[daniel777]

personally i just act tolerent and accepting. what makes us think we're right anyway. i mean we're not narrow minded bigots.

here's what works.

the 7 woes
matt. 7
oh and the cross. yes, that really makes people happy. you know just don't mention hell. justice doesn't exist...but the cross does. because we can have mercy without justice. even regardless if it's a contradiction of terms.

oh happy gosple. OH HAPPY. lets all just exist in our LITTLE RELATIVISTIC HAPPY BUBBLE. oooo yes oooo.

if some of you are having trouble catching on, i'm acting a sitire. :)

[annie1speed]

We cannot know these people's hearts, so I assume that they are sincere in what they say they believe. Now as for them being grounded in the truth of God's Word, I think it is absolutely alright to tell them where their point of view does not match up with scripture.

We should take a page out of Jesus' book when He responded to the temptation of the devil- "The scripture says ..... " And in the sermon on the mount He did it again, "The scripture says..., but I say... "

I believe the truth will stand up to scrutiny, and this forum gives us a marvelous opportunity to lead people to the truth. Just keep referring them to the Bible and back up what you say with scripture. Oh and don't forget the part about speaking the truth in LOVE. How can you get in trouble with that?

Annie

[DerSchweik]

We cannot know these people's hearts, so I assume that they are sincere in what they say they believe. Now as for them being grounded in the truth of God's Word, I think it is absolutely alright to tell them where their point of view does not match up with scripture.

We should take a page out of Jesus' book when He responded to the temptation of the devil- "The scripture says ..... " And in the sermon on the mount He did it again, "The scripture says..., but I say... "

I believe the truth will stand up to scrutiny, and this forum gives us a marvelous opportunity to lead people to the truth. Just keep referring them to the Bible and back up what you say with scripture. Oh and don't forget the part about speaking the truth in LOVE. How can you get in trouble with that?

Annie

Very wise advice; advice we should all take to heart.

[Rhamiel]

annie1speed has the right idea, we can not know the heart but we can see if what they preach lines up with the Bible. On something like an internet forum we can not really see how a person lives or even how they act around other people, we should just take them at their word so if some one says they are christian I am inclined to trust them

[salida]

True - witness to them like you would a nonchristian. Ask them questions to make them think to guide them in the correct direction. Many times this would be what would Jesus do? Pray for them so that they might know who Christ really is. Jesus said to be fruit inspectors. I have a coworker who claims this but by his fruits its self evident he isn't one. He asked me if I thought he was a christian? I said, that I was a fruit inspector and that God knows the heart. He didn't say anything after this.