Jesus = Torah?

[muffler dragon]

A post was made today where the writer used the phrase, "Torah/Yeshua". I thought it was interesting that the two entities were considered interchangeable; therefore, I figured I would start a thread about it.

I've read Avi ben Mordechai's books on the Messiah within the Tanakh and different things of that sort. I came away from those (after the fact) with the feeling that it was all "word-play" (no pun intended). When saying that something equals another item, it's possible to make it mean many varied things. This train of thought makes me ask: Does anyone have any more substantiation to the idea than word play?

When I think of the Torah, I think of many different people groups and responsibilities: priests, men, women, festivals and days, sacrifices, so on and so forth. No man would encompass all these considerations (in my mind). Therefore, I start to wonder, when people say that Jesus is the Torah maybe they mean in an "interpretative" sense. Is it because they value Jesus interpretation of the Torah more than anyone else's?

Anyway... I'm open to reading and dialoguing about any and all ideas. So, what are your thoughts?

[Charles YTK]

There is another thread on this entitled "The word became flesh". Messianics like to say Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doing things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua. It is based largely on a missuse of John 1. "The word becames flesh". However, the word in John one is the spoken word of the creator not the Torah. John is saying that the creator God became flesh as Yeshua. Try the substitution in the other thread.

[muffler dragon]

There is another thread on this entitled "The word became flesh". Messianics like to say Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doing things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua. It is based largely on a missuse of John 1. "The word becames flesh". However, the word in John one is the spoken word of the creator not the Torah. John is saying that the creator God became flesh as Yeshua. Try the substitution in the other thread.

I didn't want to start this in your thread, because of a possible derailment.

So, you're saying that the primary reason that people say Jesus = Torah is to get people to be Torah observant? Am I understanding you correctly?

[Charles YTK]

I guess you would have to entertain their arguments to get a feel for it. I have never heard a Christian (non-Torah following believer) say this Torah = Yeshua.

If I wanted a person who was a Christian to begin to follow Torah, the best way to do so is to convince them that Yeshua is the Torah of commandments who became flesh. Then you can not separate the two. Beging truly saved is directly connected to your Torah observance.

In any case I have been confronted with this arguement more times than I can even recount. To say that Yeshua lived a Torah obedient lifestyle or that he was the epitome of Torah correctness would be correct. I would find no fault in this. But then we have to remember that as Paul said, Yeshua came as one under the law to redeem those under the law. (My Paraphrase.) And he was not a person who was enslaved to Rabbinical ordinances. He was obedient to the Torah of God for the covenant that he was born into.

[A_Pioneer]

I personally didn't read this from the zohar, but I have been told by several teachers(learned Hebrews) not just everyday bible readers, what shall I say, "Rabbi's" Who say it says the first created thing is the AlephBeit/word of the Lord, backed up by the same terminologly in the NT, so on that basis that is two witnesses.
I believe it, the Ruach HaQodesh brought the Torah/word of the Lord/word of God to my rememberance. This is the perfecter of faith and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything the Spirit does not speak to them.
I am only witnessing to whom ever will hear.

One of the books I have read is "Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet" Rabbi Munk, this is a very impelling look at the richness of it and shows how important God thought the Spoken word of the Lord/Torah. Remember only the ten words were written in stone, the rest was all spoken.

So if you put no stock in the "Word", your call!
It is the Way the Truth and the Life! That is Yeshua!

Shalom

[visionary]

When you read the names of the children from Adam on, their meaning told the story of redemption, even before it was fulfilled, because they knew.

When you study the skies from the Mazzaroth perspective, you again have the story of redemption, even before it was/is/will be fulfilled.

When you study the feasts of God, you have the story of redemption, even before it is/was/will be fullfilled.

Yeshua is the master mind of all this, including Torah, because it reflected not only His character, but His redemption story, and the eternal lifestyle. We just need to separate that which is eternal, from that which is the redemption story.

When I read Yeshua=Torah, I see a reflection of the character of God reflected in Yeshua's life and Torah the way it was meant to be taken and understood. I see Torah in the light of Yeshua's explanations and I come closer to understanding God better and my relationship with God. I take no offence at those who equate Torah=Yeshua, and understand the concern of others who do not want it to rabbidically swinging to oral torah for ritual purposes only.

I do believe we need to see Yeshua in every statement of Torah, see Him telling Moses and for what purpose, see Him living it in all the parts that a man can, and see Him fulfilling it both on earth in His sacrifice and in the spring feasts. I also believe we need to see Torah especially the Fall Feasts soon to be fulfilled by Yeshua at the time of His second coming. What we eat, drink, treat our fellowman, sleep and work, worship, should all reflect that we have studied Torah under prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit as it is reflected in Yeshua.

[Charles YTK]

Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 54a


Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven things were created before the world was created, and these are they: The Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah. The Torah, for it is written, The Lord made me [sc. the Torah] as the beginning of his way.26 Repentance, for it is written, Before the mountains were brought forth, and it is written, Thou turnest man to contrition, and sayest, Repent, ye children of men.27 The Garden of Eden, as it is written, And the Lord planted a garden in Eden from aforetime.28 The Gehenna, for it is written, For Tophet [i.e., Gehenna] is ordered of old.29 The Throne of Glory and the Temple, for it is written, Thou throne of glory, on high from the beginning, Thou place of our sanctuary.30 The name of the Messiah, as it is written, His [sc. the Messiah's] name shall endure for ever, and has exited before the sun!31 — I will tell you: only its cavity was created before the world was created, but its fire [was created] on the eve of the Sabbath.

[muffler dragon]

I personally didn't read this from the zohar, but I have been told by several teachers(learned Hebrews) not just everyday bible readers, what shall I say, "Rabbi's" Who say it says the first created thing is the AlephBeit/word of the Lord, backed up by the same terminologly in the NT, so on that basis that is two witnesses.

I'm not sure how it's the same terminology when the aleph/bet were in Hebrew and the Christian testament is in Greek.

I believe it, the Ruach HaQodesh brought the Torah/word of the Lord/word of God to my rememberance. This is the perfecter of faith and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do anything the Spirit does not speak to them.
I am only witnessing to whom ever will hear.

One of the books I have read is "Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet" Rabbi Munk, this is a very impelling look at the richness of it and shows how important God thought the Spoken word of the Lord/Torah. Remember only the ten words were written in stone, the rest was all spoken.

So if you put no stock in the "Word", your call!
It is the Way the Truth and the Life! That is Yeshua!

Shalom

I guess I'm not able to see how you draw the conclusion that Jesus = Torah. Is it just a matter of faith?

[muffler dragon]

When you read the names of the children from Adam on, their meaning told the story of redemption, even before it was fulfilled, because they knew.

When you study the skies from the Mazzaroth perspective, you again have the story of redemption, even before it was/is/will be fulfilled.

When you study the feasts of God, you have the story of redemption, even before it is/was/will be fullfilled.

Yeshua is the master mind of all this, including Torah, because it reflected not only His character, but His redemption story, and the eternal lifestyle. We just need to separate that which is eternal, from that which is the redemption story.

When I read Yeshua=Torah, I see a reflection of the character of God reflected in Yeshua's life and Torah the way it was meant to be taken and understood. I see Torah in the light of Yeshua's explanations and I come closer to understanding God better and my relationship with God. I take no offence at those who equate Torah=Yeshua, and understand the concern of others who do not want it to rabbidically swinging to oral torah for ritual purposes only.

I do believe we need to see Yeshua in every statement of Torah, see Him telling Moses and for what purpose, see Him living it in all the parts that a man can, and see Him fulfilling it both on earth in His sacrifice and in the spring feasts. I also believe we need to see Torah especially the Fall Feasts soon to be fulfilled by Yeshua at the time of His second coming. What we eat, drink, treat our fellowman, sleep and work, worship, should all reflect that we have studied Torah under prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit as it is reflected in Yeshua.

On a level more primary, do you see anything in the Tanakh that says a man will be the embodiment of the Torah? And if so, to what end/purpose?

[muffler dragon]

Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 54a


Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven things were created before the world was created, and these are they: The Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah. The Torah, for it is written, The Lord made me [sc. the Torah] as the beginning of his way.26 Repentance, for it is written, Before the mountains were brought forth, and it is written, Thou turnest man to contrition, and sayest, Repent, ye children of men.27 The Garden of Eden, as it is written, And the Lord planted a garden in Eden from aforetime.28 The Gehenna, for it is written, For Tophet [i.e., Gehenna] is ordered of old.29 The Throne of Glory and the Temple, for it is written, Thou throne of glory, on high from the beginning, Thou place of our sanctuary.30 The name of the Messiah, as it is written, His [sc. the Messiah's] name shall endure for ever, and has exited before the sun!31 — I will tell you: only its cavity was created before the world was created, but its fire [was created] on the eve of the Sabbath.

I know about this passage. The thing that confuses me is where the leap from a metaphysical existence becomes an incarnation.

[plum]

I kind of thought it was a way to say Yeshua was the Word of God (like in John 1). Like saying if the Torah and Yeshua are both the Word of God, they are "the same" in some way... perhaps the belief is that they both are revelations of God and reveal who He is.

I may be oversimplifying.

Others might have a better explanation if they hold to that belief.

[muffler dragon]

I kind of thought it was a way to say Yeshua was the Word of God (like in John 1). Like saying if the Torah and Yeshua are both the Word of God, they are "the same" in some way... perhaps the belief is that they both are revelations of God and reveal who He is.

I may be oversimplifying.

Others might have a better explanation if they hold to that belief.

Do you hold this belief, eirene?

[visionary]

On a level more primary, do you see anything in the Tanakh that says a man will be the embodiment of the Torah? And if so, to what end/purpose?It is embodied in Abraham's faith...Genesis 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

[muffler dragon]

It is embodied in Abraham's faith...

I guess I'm confused considering that there WAS a ram that was sacrificed at the end of the Akedah.

[ContraMundum]

I don't think the Jesus=Torah thing works at all. They try hard, but it just properly doesn't fit.

Jesus is the "Word" (Jn 1), and according to the NT was also creator of the World, and thus creator of the Torah, (which according to the Midrashic understanding of Bereishis 1 - all of creation was for the Torah:
Rashi said: "The Torah's first word, bereishis, is an acronym for B reishis -- "two firsts" (in Hebrew, the second letter of the alphabet, Bet, is also the number "2"). This is to say that the world was created for the sake of two things called "first" (reishis) -- the Torah (Proverbs 8:22) and the people of Israel (Jeremiah 2:3).")

While it's also true that some commentators allow that God looked to the Torah and *then* created the universe ("G-d looked into the Torah and created the world"- Zohar; "So it was with G-d: He looked into the Torah and created the world"- Midrash Rabbah) this cannot ever override the fact that God is not created, but the Torah is, so it is best understood as a mysterious metaphor.

If Jesus is to be God, then He cannot, by definition, be created, and then, by definition, cannot be the Torah, because God created the Torah through Him.

Jesus is, however, according to the NT, the "Word" through whom all things are created.

So, unless you worship the Torah as God, Jesus cannot be the Torah. Of course, worship of the Torah would be idolatry. God is not the Torah, but the Torah comes from Him.

[A_Pioneer]

I'm not sure how it's the same terminology when the aleph/bet were in Hebrew and the Christian testament is in Greek.



I guess I'm not able to see how you draw the conclusion that Jesus = Torah. Is it just a matter of faith?
Yes, it is a matter of faith, but it is also not Jesus we are talking about, but the 'word of God' becoming the flesh Yeshua/word that tabernacled with man.
Yeshua as a man did not pre-exist, only the "word of God" was before Abraham. Torah is the first created thing, through it, all things were created, nothing that was made, that the word, did not make.
And God said and it happened. To me it doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist" to understand that if the first part of the bible is false then the end part is also fiction. I believe God and I believe the Word and the bible.
The word states in no uncertain terms that God is Perfect. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'!

Shalom u'vrachah

[ContraMundum]

Torah is the first created thing, through it, all things were created, nothing that was made, that the word, did not make.

So, God created the Word/Torah first?

That equates Jesus with being part of creation, not the Creator. Arianism.

[mpossoff]

I don't think the Jesus=Torah thing works at all. They try hard, but it just properly doesn't fit.

Jesus is the "Word" (Jn 1), and according to the NT was also creator of the World, and thus creator of the Torah, (which according to the Midrashic understanding of Bereishis 1 - all of creation was for the Torah:
Rashi said: "The Torah's first word, bereishis, is an acronym for B reishis -- "two firsts" (in Hebrew, the second letter of the alphabet, Bet, is also the number "2"). This is to say that the world was created for the sake of two things called "first" (reishis) -- the Torah (Proverbs 8:22) and the people of Israel (Jeremiah 2:3).")

While it's also true that some commentators allow that God looked to the Torah and *then* created the universe ("G-d looked into the Torah and created the world"- Zohar; "So it was with G-d: He looked into the Torah and created the world"- Midrash Rabbah) this cannot ever override the fact that God is not created, but the Torah is, so it is best understood as a mysterious metaphor.

If Jesus is to be God, then He cannot, by definition, be created, and then, by definition, cannot be the Torah, because God created the Torah through Him.

Jesus is, however, according to the NT, the "Word" through whom all things are created.

So, unless you worship the Torah as God, Jesus cannot be the Torah. Of course, worship of the Torah would be idolatry. God is not the Torah, but the Torah comes from Him.

I agree.

The below is talking about Wisdom(with a capitol W) but to get an idea it could be that John 1 is referancing to Proverbs 8.

To say that Yeshua is the walking Torah that tabernacled with us?

Hmmm no.

There is another thread on this entitled "The word became flesh". Messianics like to say Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doing things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua

I would have to agree that that saying Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doings things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua.

But I would like to also say that shouldn't negate that obedience isn't valid.

Proverbs 8:22-36
22 “ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=8&version=50#fen-NKJV-16633b)]
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “ Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

Marc

[Charles YTK]

Yes, it is a matter of faith, but it is also not Jesus we are talking about, but the 'word of God' becoming the flesh Yeshua/word that tabernacled with man.
Yeshua as a man did not pre-exist, only the "word of God" was before Abraham. Torah is the first created thing, through it, all things were created, nothing that was made, that the word, did not make.
And God said and it happened. To me it doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist" to understand that if the first part of the bible is false then the end part is also fiction. I believe God and I believe the Word and the bible.
The word states in no uncertain terms that God is Perfect. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'!

Shalom u'vrachah
The Rabbis say that Torah was among the first 7 things created, which included the identity of the Messiah as well. Once again you dismiss everything but the Torah as false. I think this is a dangerous position.
John, a man closer to the events of Yeshua, his best friend and one whose testimony I regard greatly over anyone alive today, says more clearly and more correctly than the Rabbis of the Talmud, who wrote a couple hundred years after John on this subject, the creator, his spoken word of creation was in the beginning with God and Was God and that same creator God became flesh in the person of Yeshua the Messiah and we saw him and beheld the glory of God in him.

I know Bob, hangrenades and horse shoes and other clichettes. But the truth is you do not believe the Gospels or the writings of the New testament.(as you have once againstated) You stand ever on the road to kick dust in the eyes of the traveller so that they can not see clearly and become lost. And then offer them the hand of Rambam to guide them.

For me I will stand by the testimony of John who knew Yeshua the Messiah personally over Rambam who rejected him and never knew him. Yeshua was the best Torah teacher ever to live. I will take his Halacha over Rambam or Hillel.

[Charles YTK]

Marc,

As you have already pointed out Proverbs 8 is about Wisdom. Although all Wisdom is found in God so we can make the connection.

In Johns writing he is referencing Genesis 1 clearly even using the the Hebrew title (beginnings) and connecting his words to the creation epic. Genesis, In the beginning, God created.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and th eword was God.

Everything that was ever created was created by him, the creator. And the creator became flesh and lived among us and we beheld his glory.

John is taking us back to the very beginning, to the first God man ever knew, God the creator, and saying that same one God who created it all became flesh. Not that the torah, a book of commandments given to the people who were to become Israel, became flesh. He was not the embidiment of laws and stories, he was the embodiment of the creator. And since the creator also gave us the law, Yeshua also knew the law better than anyone, and lived by it the way it was meant to be lived by. He is the true witness and is the fullness of the glory of God.


COL 1:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

COL 2: [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

TIT 2: [13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[visionary]

I guess I'm confused considering that there WAS a ram that was sacrificed at the end of the Akedah.Abraham was going to sacrifice his son as God asked, knowning the very thing God hated was the pagan child sacrificing practices. Imagine the conflicting thoughts running through Abraham's head as the two walked. So when Issac asked his father the question, Abraham had come to understand and he said... Genesis 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. There was the righteousness of Abraham.... He understood.

[muffler dragon]

I don't think the Jesus=Torah thing works at all. They try hard, but it just properly doesn't fit.

Jesus is the "Word" (Jn 1), and according to the NT was also creator of the World, and thus creator of the Torah, (which according to the Midrashic understanding of Bereishis 1 - all of creation was for the Torah:
Rashi said: "The Torah's first word, bereishis, is an acronym for B reishis -- "two firsts" (in Hebrew, the second letter of the alphabet, Bet, is also the number "2"). This is to say that the world was created for the sake of two things called "first" (reishis) -- the Torah (Proverbs 8:22) and the people of Israel (Jeremiah 2:3).")

While it's also true that some commentators allow that God looked to the Torah and *then* created the universe ("G-d looked into the Torah and created the world"- Zohar; "So it was with G-d: He looked into the Torah and created the world"- Midrash Rabbah) this cannot ever override the fact that God is not created, but the Torah is, so it is best understood as a mysterious metaphor.

That's a very *interesting* final statement, CM. I understand precisely what you mean, just never thought of it that way before.

If Jesus is to be God, then He cannot, by definition, be created, and then, by definition, cannot be the Torah, because God created the Torah through Him.

That's an excellent point.

Jesus is, however, according to the NT, the "Word" through whom all things are created.

So, unless you worship the Torah as God, Jesus cannot be the Torah. Of course, worship of the Torah would be idolatry. God is not the Torah, but the Torah comes from Him.

Thanks for joining the thread. It's fun to have things to think about.

[muffler dragon]

Yes, it is a matter of faith, but it is also not Jesus we are talking about, but the 'word of God' becoming the flesh Yeshua/word that tabernacled with man.

Okay.

Yeshua as a man did not pre-exist, only the "word of God" was before Abraham. Torah is the first created thing, through it, all things were created, nothing that was made, that the word, did not make.
And God said and it happened.

Okay. So, you're not a trinitarian than? Or, at least, you do not believe that Jesus and HaShem are one in the same, correct?

To me it doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist" to understand that if the first part of the bible is false then the end part is also fiction. I believe God and I believe the Word and the bible.
The word states in no uncertain terms that God is Perfect. No 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'!

Shalom u'vrachah

That's true. My only comment is that the converse of that equation is not necessarily true. ;)

[Charles YTK]

I am told that there is a Rabbinic opinion that gets expressed in several places that Isaac was actually killed and then resurrected. They speak in terms of Isaac speaking his testimony to us "From the ashes". Sorry that I can not produce the reference. Tim Hegg mentioned this in one of his lectures. Maybe someone else has some information on this.

I agree that it would very much contrary to Gods own criticim and hatred of the Pagans who worshipped Molek and sacrificed their own children. But on the other hand, Isaac prefigures Messiah, Gods son, the rightful heir, who was presented a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.

This theology is of course contrary to many Jews and one reason they reject Christianity.

[muffler dragon]

I agree.

The below is talking about Wisdom(with a capitol W) but to get an idea it could be that John 1 is referancing to Proverbs 8.

Is it simply a matter of capital punctuation that makes you think this?

To say that Yeshua is the walking Torah that tabernacled with us?

Hmmm no.

Okay.

I would have to agree that that saying Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doings things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua.

In that case, how do you synchronize this idea with the fact that Jesus wasn't a woman nor a priest and so on?

But I would like to also say that shouldn't negate that obedience isn't valid.

Obedience isn't valid for what?

[muffler dragon]

Abraham was going to sacrifice his son as God asked, knowning the very thing God hated was the pagan child sacrificing practices. Imagine the conflicting thoughts running through Abraham's head as the two walked. So when Issac asked his father the question, Abraham had come to understand and he said... There was the righteousness of Abraham.... He understood.

Two things:

1) The prophesy is fulfilled within that immediate time frame; not thousands of years later.
2) If human sacrifice is a pagan practice that G-d hates; then where do you draw the line for thinking the crucifixion is permissible and an act of love?

[Charles YTK]

The word that became flesh I believe to be the spoken creative word. "God SAID, Let there be light and there was light." "God said let the earth be filled with life and it was filled." He speaks things into existance, calls them up out of nothing by the power of his word.

All creation is sustained by his word. The very moment he says shut it down, the entre universe will implode into nothingness once again. This word, living word not written word, is what equates with the creator and is what John was speaking of in my opinion.

[muffler dragon]

I am told that there is a Rabbinic opinion that gets expressed in several places that Isaac was actually killed and then resurrected. They speak in terms of Isaac speaking his testimony to us "From the ashes". Sorry that I can not produce the reference. Tim Hegg mentioned this in one of his lectures. Maybe someone else has some information on this.

I read it as a part of footnoted commentary in a Union of Hebrew Congregations Tanakh. I've asked a couple Rabbis about it, and not one has ever heard of it before.

I agree that it would very much contrary to Gods own criticim and hatred of the Pagans who worshipped Molek and sacrificed their own children. But on the other hand, Isaac prefigures Messiah, Gods son, the rightful heir, who was presented a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind.

With all due respect, from a Judaic POV the Akedah does no such thing.

This theology is of course contrary to many Jews and one reason they reject Christianity.

Which begs the question regarding the alternate interpretation of the Akedah, if it happened; then what was the purpose? The answer is something we may never know.

[Charles YTK]

Perhaps the difference is that a sacrifice )animal or Pagan children) were chosen by the sinner. In the case of Yeshua he laid his life down willingly out of love, dying in our place. It may seem by some accounts that he was seized and killed against his will however in my opinion when they tried to seize him with an entire group of soliers, he connects himself with the I AM and they all fall over backwards. This makes the point that if he had desired it no man could have taken him by force.

[muffler dragon]

Perhaps the difference is that a sacrifice )animal or Pagan children) were chosen by the sinner. In the case of Yeshua he laid his life down willingly out of love, dying in our place. It may seem by some accounts that he was seized and killed against his will however in my opinion when they tried to seize him with an entire group of soliers, he connects himself with the I AM and they all fall over backwards. This makes the point that if he had desired it no man could have taken him by force.

Entertaining this concept for a second, there are a couple things that come to mind that cause it problems:

1) Isaac was a grown man, and he let his father bind him. Yet, the sacrifice was not permitted.
2) Moses offered himself as a substitute for the children of Israel, and yet, G-d did not permit it.

Throughout the entire Tanakh, there is no semblance of vicarious atonement being performed through human sacrifice. There are examples of such an act/feat in other pieces of literature and history, but nothing in Judaism.

[mpossoff]

The word that became flesh I believe to be the spoken creative word. "God SAID, Let there be light and there was light." "God said let the earth be filled with life and it was filled." He speaks things into existance, calls them up out of nothing by the power of his word.

All creation is sustained by his word. The very moment he says shut it down, the entre universe will implode into nothingness once again. This word, living word not written word, is what equates with the creator and is what John was speaking of in my opinion.

In other words the Voice that spoke Let there be light and there was light was the Word, Yeshua.

The Voice that thundered from the mountain was the Word, Yeshua.

Revelations 19:11-16 Who's the Word?

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Word of God had a name written that no one knew except Himself?

Now I never like to get into a discussion about the Trinity or whatever you want to call it. I just let scripture be scripture.

All I know is that Word of God had a name written that no one knew except Himself.

Marc

[A_Pioneer]

Charles and Marc, I think you have finially got it!

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

Charles and Marc, I think you have finially got it!

Shalom

I guess I'm confused, because I don't think they're on the same page.

[A_Pioneer]

I guess I'm confused, because I don't think they're on the same page.I suppose you would agree that the word of the Lord that came to Avram, was not Jesus? What or who was it?
Not a Spirit, a Malakim, or any other individual! But Avraham knew the Word/Torah, before Moshe wrote it.

Marc is on the same page, he and Charles are joined at the hip. They are like cream and coffee. They aim to confuse you. LOL They haven't been together for very long, but they can finish each others sentances.

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

I suppose you would agree that the word of the Lord that came to Avram, was not Jesus? What or who was it?
Not a Spirit, a Malakim, or any other individual! But Avraham knew the Word/Torah, before Moshe wrote it.

I believe that the Oral Torah precedes the Written Torah. Furthermore, I believe this Oral Torah was passed down from Adam to Seth so on and so forth. Jewish tradition holds that Abraham was taught by Shem, the son of Noach.

[Sephania]

There is another thread on this entitled "The word became flesh". Messianics like to say Yeshua is the living Torah to justify doing things specified in the Torah, because they can make obedeince to Torah synonymous with being a good follower of Yeshua. It is based largely on a missuse of John 1. "The word becames flesh". However, the word in John one is the spoken word of the creator not the Torah. John is saying that the creator God became flesh as Yeshua. Try the substitution in the other thread. And Yeshua is the one who spoke the word and was those words and those words became flesh.

Are G-ds words not part of who he is? We can't comprehend this very well because we don't realize nor see totally what even the power our words have, and they are far less than his.

MD, let me ask you, when the bible says:

And the word of the L-RD came to ...................

What does that mean to you? how does a word 'come' to someone, and then speak to them?

[muffler dragon]

MD, let me ask you, when the bible says:

And the word of the L-RD came to ...................

What does that mean to you? how does a word 'come' to someone, and then speak to them?

In the least anthropomorphic way(s) I can imagine. Seriously.

If you're referencing how G-d communicated with the prophets (as an example), then I would have to say that it was either through visions, inward hearing (like a prick of the conscience), audible words for them only, or other possibilities that don't really come to mind right now.

[mpossoff]

I guess I'm confused, because I don't think they're on the same page.

I believe Charles and myself are on the same page. My post I was using as a springboard.

I have done a study 'Messiah Unveiled in Genesis' and it would blow your mind.

Genesis 3:8-15
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”


And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking, how can one hear a voice walking?

Adam and Eve saw the image of the invisible God, Messiah.

They hid themselves? They hid themselves from who? Messiah, the image of the invisible God.

I also have a great snippet to show that the very first word in the Torah is Messiah, will post it later. This will give you a better idea that the Voice that said "Let there be light" is Messiah.

Good stuff.

Marc

[mpossoff]

And Yeshua is the one who spoke the word and was those words and those words became flesh.

Are G-ds words not part of who he is? We can't comprehend this very well because we don't realize nor see totally what even the power our words have, and they are far less than his.

MD, let me ask you, when the bible says:

And the word of the L-RD came to ...................

What does that mean to you? how does a word 'come' to someone, and then speak to them?

Or the Angel of the Lord appeared to....

Marc

[Charles YTK]

And Yeshua is the one who spoke the word and was those words and those words became flesh.

Are G-ds words not part of who he is? We can't comprehend this very well because we don't realize nor see totally what even the power our words have, and they are far less than his.

MD, let me ask you, when the bible says:

And the word of the L-RD came to ...................

What does that mean to you? how does a word 'come' to someone, and then speak to them?
Zayit,

That takes it too far. Because God is unchanging, but the Torah of Moshe did change and will continue to change especially when Messiah returns. The Torah is a reflection of the character of God, that is, it shows us something about God. But it does not support God or restrict him. God does not serve Torah, Torah is a picture of Gods nature. Torah is truth and truth is unchanging, but laws do change. So what do I mean by this seeming contradiction? What God said is eternally true, because it is the facts just like a thing that was said or which happened in the past. Those become eternal facts that can not be revised and remain truth. The part of it that are laws especially for Israel had conditions placed upon them such that God would honor those words so long as Israel was keeping faithful to it. The covenant and it's Torah remained intact by Israel's faithfulness. God said that he would prosper them in the land, so long as they maintained faithfulness toward the covenant. They failed in this and the land went barren, the people were taken into exile and such. So God's word was true and the record of what happened is eternal, but the law of prosperity which was conditional is cancelled by Israels unfaithfulness. So this has changed. So also did th elaw that said only a Levite could be high priest, And the law that said to kill a disobedeint son, or that you could have many wives, ect, ect..In fact the entire Covenant which these laws were conditions for has been changed for the New Covenant. We approach the new covenant through the law written on our hearts administered by the spirit, not by the law on parchment administered by Levites.

Some things are the same in the New Covenant Torah but not everything.

[A_Pioneer]

I believe that the Oral Torah precedes the Written Torah. Furthermore, I believe this Oral Torah was passed down from Adam to Seth so on and so forth. Jewish tradition holds that Abraham was taught by Shem, the son of Noach.
I have high regard for the Oral Torah, but not a part of the OP, so that's another thread.
I missed that teaching of Avram, one of them I am aware of, has Avram understanding HaShem and causing havoc in his fathers Idol Shop. (3yrs old under a death sentance)
But G. 15:1 says the word of the Lord came to Avram in a vision, saying,. I asked, was it Jesus he had a vision of? If not Jesus, who or what? Did he see anything? It was a vision? This "vision" said "Fear not, Avram I am a shield for you; your reward is very great."

BTW; Charles said just what the teachers I have heard say about the word of the Lord being the fabric of the universe, should he remove it, all collapses!
An El Shaddai Word to me!

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

I believe Charles and myself are on the same page.

Okay.

My post I was using as a springboard.

I have done a study 'Messiah Unveiled in Genesis' and it would blow your mind.

Genesis 3:8-15
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”


And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking, how can one hear a voice walking?

Adam and Eve saw the image of the invisible God, Messiah.

What makes you believe that the Hebrew gerand here is "walking"?

They hid themselves? They hid themselves from who? Messiah, the image of the invisible God.

Personally, if I heard the voice of the L-rd after I was obedient; then I would probably go in a different direction myself. But since these questions are based on the usage of the word, "walking", I'll just wait till you answer that.

I also have a great snippet to show that the very first word in the Torah is Messiah, will post it later. This will give you a better idea that the Voice that said "Let there be light" is Messiah.

Good stuff.

Marc

When you say, "give you", do you mean me in particular or a collective "you"?

[Charles YTK]

I believe Charles and myself are on the same page. My post I was using as a springboard.

I have done a study 'Messiah Unveiled in Genesis' and it would blow your mind.

Genesis 3:8-15
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”


And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking, how can one hear a voice walking?

Adam and Eve saw the image of the invisible God, Messiah.

They hid themselves? They hid themselves from who? Messiah, the image of the invisible God.

I also have a great snippet to show that the very first word in the Torah is Messiah, will post it later. This will give you a better idea that the Voice that said "Let there be light" is Messiah.

Good stuff.

Marc
Messiah is the channel through which God has always communicated with his creation. The universe is really within God and God extends a part of himself into the void where he created the physical world and touches it, talks to it, and ultimately saves it and rules over it through the office of Messiah who is one with the creator from the very beginning. As I have said many times, Messiah is like God's own right arm, reaching into the void to create and communicate with what was created. God places himself in Messiah. Not all that God is, his volume if you will use the term, but his essence, a representative sampling of his consciousness.

Sorry this sounds a little new-age. It is really more Kabballah than New Age.

[Charles YTK]

Charles and Marc, I think you have finially got it!

Shalom
WOW! That is incredible because I have not said one thing different today than, I have for years. Why do I have it now and didn't yesterday or last year? :confused: :doh:

[PostTribber]

Therefore, I start to wonder, when people say that Jesus is the Torah maybe they mean in an "interpretative" sense. Is it because they value Jesus interpretation of the Torah more than anyone else's?

Anyway... I'm open to reading and dialoguing about any and all ideas. So, what are your thoughts?

...Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17) "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39)
...that's everything revealed in the Law and through the Prophets. Augustine said this, "the New Testament is concealed in the Old. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New." :amen:

[A_Pioneer]

BTW; Charles said just what the teachers I have heard say about the word of the Lord being the fabric of the universe, should he remove it, all collapses!(my paraphrase)
An El Shaddai Word to me!

[muffler dragon]

...Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17) "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39)
...that's everything revealed in the Law and through the Prophets. Augustine said this, "the New Testament is concealed in the Old. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New." :amen:

What does this have to do with my OP?

For future reference, I'm fully aware of what is said in the GT. ;)

[A_Pioneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by muffler dragon http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37239775#post37239775)
Therefore, I start to wonder, when people say that Jesus is the Torah maybe they mean in an "interpretative" sense. Is it because they value Jesus interpretation of the Torah more than anyone else's?

Anyway... I'm open to reading and dialoguing about any and all ideas. So, what are your thoughts?
[/quote]
...Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17) "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me." (John 5:39)
...that's everything revealed in the Law and through the Prophets. Augustine said this, "the New Testament is concealed in the Old. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New." :amen: Let me add one, amen!

[muffler dragon]

Posters:

Can we reign this back into where we're talking about my OP?

If you feel the other topics at hand tie back into it; then explain how.

[A_Pioneer]

Shalom MD, but I am with the OP, except for the little Snipes at my good taste.
Yeshua/Torah/word of God > Jesus

LOL
Shalom

[muffler dragon]

I have high regard for the Oral Torah, but not a part of the OP, so that's another thread.

I was just answering your question. I'm all for maintaining the focus of the OP.

I missed that teaching of Avram, one of them I am aware of, has Avram understanding HaShem and causing havoc in his fathers Idol Shop. (3yrs old under a death sentance)
But G. 15:1 says the word of the Lord came to Avram in a vision, saying,. I asked, was it Jesus he had a vision of? If not Jesus, who or what? Did he see anything? It was a vision? This "vision" said "Fear not, Avram I am a shield for you; your reward is very great."

The translation I reference says, "1. After these incidents, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Fear not, Abram; I am your Shield; your reward is exceedingly great."

I don't interpret this statement as being a "vision" of anything in particular. More than likely, it was simply an audible.

[muffler dragon]

Shalom MD, but I am with the OP, except for the little Snipes at my good taste.
Yeshua/Torah/word of God > Jesus

LOL
Shalom

Okay. Then do you believe that Jesus is a created being?

[A_Pioneer]

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;

I agree! Yes, the word was the firstborn of all creation.
Yeshua is the word of God that came to tabernacle with us, the promised Moshiach, in HaShems own time/moedim.
This is what your Rabbi's say in Zohar and I agree.
Is.53 is speaking about Israel and also of the Moshiach, the Christian community say it is a description of Jesus!
Have you seen any of the depictions of Jesus, what's not to desire? LOL
Shalom

[muffler dragon]

I agree! Yes, the word was the firstborn of all creation.
Yeshua is the word of God that came to tabernacle with us, the promised Moshiach, in HaShems own time/moedim.
This is what your Rabbi's say in Zohar and I agree.

1) I'm not Jewish.
2) Where in the Zohar does it say, "Yeshua is the word of God that came to tabernacle with us, the promised Moshiach, in HaShems own time/moedim."

Is.53 is speaking about Israel and also of the Moshiach, the Christian community say it is a description of Jesus!
Have you seen any of the depictions of Jesus, what's not to desire? LOL
Shalom

I don't view Isaiah 53 as Messianic in the p-s-h-a-t sense. As for "desiring" Jesus or not, I don't need a mediator between G-d and me. Therefore, Jesus is neither desirous nor undesirous, because he's a non-entity.

[mpossoff]

I agree! Yes, the word was the firstborn of all creation.
Yeshua is the word of God that came to tabernacle with us, the promised Moshiach, in HaShems own time/moedim.
This is what your Rabbi's say in Zohar and I agree.
Is.53 is speaking about Israel and also of the Moshiach, the Christian community say it is a description of Jesus!
Have you seen any of the depictions of Jesus, what's not to desire? LOL
Shalom

But that doesn't mean He was created.

How could something be created when it that something has no beginning? The Word was from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

Marc

[muffler dragon]

But that doesn't mean He was created.

How could something be created when it that something has no beginning?

Marc

Marc

Just for clarication sake: you don't believe that Jesus = Torah. Correct?

[A_Pioneer]

But that doesn't mean He was created.

How could something be created when it that something has no beginning? The Word was from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was

Marc
Marc, what other scriptures do you disagree with?
Shalom

[mpossoff]

Just for clarication sake: you don't believe that Jesus = Torah. Correct?

No I don't.

Yeshua embodied the Torah, yes.

Not:
In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God.

And the Torah was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Marc

[muffler dragon]

No I don't.

Yeshua embodied the Torah, yes.

Not:
In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God.

And the Torah was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Marc

Please clarify what you mean by he was not the Torah, but he was the embodiment of the Torah. Thanks.

[mpossoff]

Marc, what other scriptures do you disagree with?
Shalom

Yeshua, the Word has no beginning as the Father has no beginning.

The Apostolic scriptures have no problem with a visible manifestation of God.

Marc

[A_Pioneer]

1) I'm not Jewish.
2) Where in the Zohar does it say, "Yeshua is the word of God that came to tabernacle with us, the promised Moshiach, in HaShems own time/moedim."
As I said before I personally did not read it. All my Teachers tell me that the Zohar says the first created thing was the Aleph Tav, Hashem says he is AT, then Yeshua in Revelations claims to be AT/Alpha and Omega.


I don't view Isaiah 53 as Messianic in the p-s-h-a-t sense. As for "desiring" Jesus or not, I don't need a mediator between G-d and me. Therefore, Jesus is neither desirous nor undesirous, because he's a non-entity.
Just one question, how do you not view it as p-s-h-a-t?
This is to be the foundation.

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

As I said before I personally did not read it. All my Teachers tell me that the Zohar says the first created thing was the Aleph Tav, Hashem says he is AT, then Yeshua in Revelations claims to be AT/Alpha and Omega.

So you believe that HaShem is a created being then?

Back to my question: I specifically asked you where Jesus was in the Zohar. If you're applying grammatical mathematics; then that's one thing. But I wanted to know if you thought Jesus was actually in the Zohar somewhere.

Just one question, how do you not view it as p-s-h-a-t?
This is to be the foundation.

Shalom

I believe the Suffering Servant is Israel in the p-s-h-a-t interpretation. In Midrash, the Suffering Servant can be anyone. The point of midrash aggadah is not to be factual/literal, but instead, to provide a moral.

[A_Pioneer]

Yeshua, the Word has no beginning as the Father has no beginning.

The Apostolic scriptures have no problem with a visible manifestation of God.

Marc
Which one is not the word of god?

The Torah?

The word of the Lord?

The word of God?

The Moshiach?

Yeshua?

God Said?

What technicallity do you separate all the above?

Beside me there is no other God!

Did your god lie?

Did Yeshua Lie?

HaShem sent the Word into the world to save the world, both times!

Did God come into the world?

Or did God send the word of God as the son to reestablish the contact with a perfected people? To walk with a perfect man in the image of God!

The Torah is Truth. It is the Way, it is The Life.

Yeshua says he is that!

Where do you separate it all out?

If the p-s-h-a-t of the word is incomplete, then it is not as the Tanack says that the Torah is perfect? Now you are back to square one start all over again.
Excuse me, if I don't go back over it with you! :sigh:

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

So you believe that HaShem is a created being then? A resounding NO!

Back to my question: I specifically asked you where Jesus was in the Zohar. If you're applying grammatical mathematics; then that's one thing. But I wanted to know if you thought Jesus was actually in the Zohar somewhere..No. Jesus, outside Greco-Roman bible. And Christian Commentary. Yeshua HaMashiach, for me. Aleph Beit First created thing from the mind of God. W/o words or letters one can't say 'let there be light.'



I believe the Suffering Servant is Israel in the p-s-h-a-t interpretation. In Midrash, the Suffering Servant can be anyone. The point of midrash aggadah is not to be factual/literal, but instead, to provide a moral.
Amen

[dvd_holc]

Question in regard to Isaiah 53: Is the Messiah outside of Israel or the cheif representative of Israel?

[A_Pioneer]

Has a dual meaning, the later part is without a doubt, for me, the Moshiach being spoken about.

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

M D, are we finished? Or do you need me to clear up something?

Shalom

[Sephania]

Zayit,

That takes it too far. Because God is unchanging, but the Torah of Moshe did change and will continue to change especially when Messiah returns. The Torah is a reflection of the character of God, that is, it shows us something about God. But it does not support God or restrict him. God does not serve Torah, Torah is a picture of Gods nature. Torah is truth and truth is unchanging, but laws do change. So what do I mean by this seeming contradiction? What God said is eternally true, because it is the facts just like a thing that was said or which happened in the past. Those become eternal facts that can not be revised and remain truth. The part of it that are laws especially for Israel had conditions placed upon them such that God would honor those words so long as Israel was keeping faithful to it. The covenant and it's Torah remained intact by Israel's faithfulness. God said that he would prosper them in the land, so long as they maintained faithfulness toward the covenant. They failed in this and the land went barren, the people were taken into exile and such. So God's word was true and the record of what happened is eternal, but the law of prosperity which was conditional is cancelled by Israels unfaithfulness. So this has changed. So also did th elaw that said only a Levite could be high priest, And the law that said to kill a disobedeint son, or that you could have many wives, ect, ect..In fact the entire Covenant which these laws were conditions for has been changed for the New Covenant. We approach the new covenant through the law written on our hearts administered by the spirit, not by the law on parchment administered by Levites.

Some things are the same in the New Covenant Torah but not everything. I thought the reason they went into exile was because they did not give the land it's sabbaths?

Hmm, the law that said a Levite was to be a priest, I don't think that is changed. Actually the law to be High Priest was not just from the Levites but from Aaron alone.

Jeremiah 33:21

And Isaiah 66:20-21 Levites are still to be the priests in the future by this scripture/prophecy.

Only the Aaronic priesthood has changed, the one to go into the most Holy place.

[muffler dragon]

Question in regard to Isaiah 53: Is the Messiah outside of Israel or the cheif representative of Israel?

Isaiah 53, IMO, is not a Messianic passage; therefore, the Messiah has nothing to do with it.

[muffler dragon]

M D, are we finished? Or do you need me to clear up something?

Shalom

I don't recall if you answered whether you think Jesus is a created being or not?

[mpossoff]

Isaiah 53, IMO, is not a Messianic passage; therefore, the Messiah has nothing to do with it.

Then what or who does it have to do with?

Marc

[muffler dragon]

Then what or who does it have to do with?

Marc

Israel.

[A_Pioneer]

Back at you M D, it was post #53 in which drew a retort about the scripture I posted was not indicative of the Word being the first created thing! But, reading the Hebrew Chumash I clearly see "Beginnings created Elohim Aleph Tav heavens and earth" So in Hebrew it literally says he created Aleph Tav before the heavens.
The Chimes will say that this is something else, but don't you agree that with out a very learned 4000 yr old Hebrew we can't know for positive that what I read is not just what God wanted to convey?
Anyway that is what it means to me, if Elohim wants me to think differently, surely he will make the correction in my Chumash. (Tongue in cheek.)
BTW; ironically this post was the one I mentioned Is. 53 and that being post 53. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Shalom

[ContraMundum]

Back at you M D, it was post #53 in which drew a retort about the scripture I posted was not indicative of the Word being the first created thing! But, reading the Hebrew Chumash I clearly see "Beginnings created Elohim Aleph Tav heavens and earth" So in Hebrew it literally says he created Aleph Tav before the heavens.

I hope you're not saying that "Jesus is the Aleph Tav" now.

If you think Jesus/The Word was the "first created" thing, then you are de facto denying His divinity, because the first rule of monotheism is that God is not a created being, but the eternal all-existant creator.

Now, if you are a non-Trin, then that's ok- you can have Arius in your corner. But just for the record, orthodox Christianity denies Jesus/The Word being created at any point in time.

Who's teaching you this doctrine, by the way? Can I ask?

[muffler dragon]

Back at you M D, it was post #53 in which drew a retort about the scripture I posted was not indicative of the Word being the first created thing!

My apologies. The problem arose, because I have seen people use the phrase "firstborn of all creation" to mean both created and uncreated. Hence, the confusion.

But, reading the Hebrew Chumash I clearly see "Beginnings created Elohim Aleph Tav heavens and earth" So in Hebrew it literally says he created Aleph Tav before the heavens.

What chumash are you using? I don't recall this in my Stone Edition. Would you mind providing me a reference?

The Chimes will say that this is something else, but don't you agree that with out a very learned 4000 yr old Hebrew we can't know for positive that what I read is not just what God wanted to convey?

Actually, I wouldn't entirely agree, because I feel that the Oral Torah helps maintain meaning throughout time.

Anyway that is what it means to me, if Elohim wants me to think differently, surely he will make the correction in my Chumash. (Tongue in cheek.)
BTW; ironically this post was the one I mentioned Is. 53 and that being post 53. Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Shalom

Cool beans.

[A_Pioneer]

I hope you're not saying that "Jesus is the Aleph Tav" now.

If you think Jesus/The Word was the "first created" thing, then you are de facto denying His divinity, because the first rule of monotheism is that God is not a created being, but the eternal all-existant creator.

Now, if you are a non-Trin, then that's ok- you can have Arius in your corner. But just for the record, orthodox Christianity denies Jesus/The Word being created at any point in time.

Who's teaching you this doctrine, by the way? Can I ask?Yes, Conta, I am not trinitarian. Yes, I am saying Yeshua has the Name "word of God" Rev 19:13!

No, Contra, I am not dening Yeshua's pedigree! He is the son of God and he says so in Jn. 10:36! And yes, God is Eternal and the only God, De. 33:27 _ De. 6:4.

I don't mind who is in my corner, as long as God is there.
And I am so sorry that those who don't believe in what is printed in their bible, call them selves orthodox Christians. "It's in the Book!"

As I am fond of saying, "The only benefit one derives from trinity is to be accepted by orthodox Christians."

Who are my teachers? Many, but the main two are the bible and the Ruach HaQodesh. Joeseph Good, Sam Peak to name some others. There are many, many more who believe the bible with out a Christian filter.

Many say they believe in Jesus, but few believe what Yeshua/Aleph Tav/ Word/ spoke! Rev. 21:6

Dump the garbage Mt. 12:43-45 and fill your clean and scrubbed out mind with Torah/word of God/Aleph Tav and there won't be room for an unclean spirit and/or any others.

BTW, Yeshua is the son of God and was and still is in the Image of God. Perfect and now Eternal!

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

Yes, Conta, I am not trinitarian.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Yes, I am saying Yeshua has the Name "word of God" Rev 19:13!

No, Contra, I am not dening Yeshua's pedigree! He is the son of God and he says so in Jn. 10:36! And yes, God is Eternal and the only God, De. 33:27 _ De. 6:4.

Does this mean you view Jesus as a sort of demi-god? Between G-d and man, but not on either level?

As I am fond of saying, "The only benefit one derives from trinity is to be accepted by orthodox Christians."

Personally, I think it's a little bit more expansive than that. But that's just me.

[A_Pioneer]

Thanks for clarifying that for me.



Does this mean you view Jesus as a sort of demi-god? Between G-d and man, but not on either level?



Personally, I think it's a little bit more expansive than that. But that's just me.

Shalom M D, I believe the word of God! That is the Complete Bible! As someone posted about a scholar wrote that the New Testament is revealed in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New.(paraphrased).
In my belief, one must have had his eyes opened, as God(not satan) has blinded unbelievers and he has to be the one who opens one's eyes, if not that unbeliever stays blind.
On the other hand, God is a just God and if he blinded someone, he will not hold that blind man accountable for his blindness. Here is where the Moshiach, Yeshua and the Jew, I prefer Hebrew, have problems. They can read the B'rt HaDasshah and never find the Mashiach, they can believe he was a good Rabbi, but not the son of God. Jn. 5:24 is great here, in place of, all Hebrew who don't recognize Jesus as their savior are going to hell in a hand basket. There it is written as the word of God speaking to the Hebrews telling them they have the same eternal life that the Christians do.
When one is searching for emet, he will find the Aleph Tav and he will know the emet and the emet will set him free, if he hears and then believes, he then has Eternal Life and has passed from judgement into life.

Hey! Wouldn't it be great if all the Hebrews in the world knew Yeshua as their sacrifice for sin? The bible says it won't happen until the last days, but then the NC will be complete and "All will know the Lord", but not yet!

And MD, either way, you and others who believe in the God of Avraham, Issac and Yaccov will also be saved and if you do his will, the Moshiah will repay you for all you have done. Rev. 22:12

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

Shalom M D, I believe the word of God! That is the Complete Bible! As someone posted about a scholar wrote that the New Testament is revealed in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New.(paraphrased).
In my belief, one must have had his eyes opened, as God(not satan) has blinded unbelievers and he has to be the one who opens one's eyes, if not that unbeliever stays blind.
On the other hand, God is a just God and if he blinded someone, he will not hold that blind man accountable for his blindness. Here is where the Moshiach, Yeshua and the Jew, I prefer Hebrew, have problems. They can read the B'rt HaDasshah and never find the Mashiach, they can believe he was a good Rabbi, but not the son of God. Jn. 5:24 is great here, in place of, all Hebrew who don't recognize Jesus as their savior are going to hell in a hand basket. There it is written as the word of God speaking to the Hebrews telling them they have the same eternal life that the Christians do.
When one is searching for emet, he will find the Aleph Tav and he will know the emet and the emet will set him free, if he hears and then believes, he then has Eternal Life and has passed from judgement into life.

Hey! Wouldn't it be great if all the Hebrews in the world knew Yeshua as their sacrifice for sin? The bible says it won't happen until the last days, but then the NC will be complete and "All will know the Lord", but not yet!

And MD, either way, you and others who believe in the God of Avraham, Issac and Yaccov will also be saved and if you do his will, the Moshiah will repay you for all you have done. Rev. 22:12

Shalom

I follow what you're saying. I'll just agree to disagree. ;)

[A_Pioneer]

M D, I failed to answer the question, is Yeshua a dimi-god or something else?

No, no dimi-god for me! I think Jesus as Christians believe is just that! Because he isn't fully informed, he does not know the day and the hour and he died.
But Yeshua is a Man, a fully formed manchild formed in his mothers womb, being sparked to life via the Ruach HaQodesh and not of man's seed. He is the Mashiach the redeeming blood that covers the sin of the First man Adam's sin, Yeshua, the second man Adam a life giving spirit.

Shalom

[A_Pioneer]

I follow what you're saying. I'll just agree to disagree. ;)
"That's life."

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

M D, I failed to answer the question, is Yeshua a dimi-god or something else?

No, no dimi-god for me! I think Jesus as Christians believe is just that! Because he isn't fully informed, he does not know the day and the hour and he died.
But Yeshua is a Man, a fully formed manchild formed in his mothers womb, being sparked to life via the Ruach HaQodesh and not of man's seed. He is the Mashiach the redeeming blood that covers the sin of the First man Adam's sin, Yeshua, the second man Adam a life giving spirit.

ShalomThank you for clarifying.

Just to ask: do you rely on Isaiah 7 as part of the substance behind what you write or something else?

[A_Pioneer]

Thank you for clarifying.

Just to ask: do you rely on Isaiah 7 as part of the substance behind what you write or something else?
No. It could have dual meaning for moedim, but it is a message to Ahaz.
BTW Chptr. 9 has a famous dual meaning. Then, Isaih's time, the immidiate future and Mashiach.
Shalom

[ContraMundum]

AP-

I can't follow your logic at all. Jesus is either God or He isn't- there's no in between. If He is God, then you have to believe in a Trinity or at least a Duality (depending on your understanding of the Holy Spirit). You can't have an each way bet.

I do not recognise the names of your teachers, and no Chumash I know of agrees with your intepretation of Aleph Tav as being equated to the Messiah in any way, shape or form. The Aleph Tav, if you wish to decontruct the passage that way- is created. So, unless you think, like Arius, that Jesus is the first created being, you cannot equate the two. However, if you believe that Jesus was the first creation, AND still believe Him to be the Son of God,- then you are no longer monotheist, but polytheist. This is the error of Arius and his followers like the JWs.

We'll have to stop there.

[A_Pioneer]

M D,
We will stop, but I must say this, there was no Jesus at creation! Only- Y - H - V - H - and the Aleph Tav.

Shalom

[muffler dragon]

M D,
We will stop, but I must say this, there was no Jesus at creation! Only- Y - H - V - H - and the Aleph Tav.

Shalom

I wasn't the one who asked. That was Contra. ;)

[A_Pioneer]

I wasn't the one who asked. That was Contra. ;)
Sorry, I am in error. Kinda acted as if we had a private conversation. It is a public forum. LOL :scratch:

Shalom