What do Conservative Christians think about Illegal Immigration?

[Albion]

Is there a Conservative Christian POV on this? If so, can you articulate it and justify it? I would suppose that respect for law, what's fair when some choose illegal entry and others the legal route, costs and benefits to the country, and similar aspects of this are all open for discussion.

[nyj]

What do I think about illegal immigration? It's illegal. If they're caught, they should be sent back to their country of origin. If they want to stay in the United States, they should do it properly, like all of the immigrants who are going through the necessary processes. I also believe that companies using illegal immigrants should be fined ... heavily.

[Voegelin]

It is immoral to support immoral or injust laws so one question is if the immigration laws are either.

In general, I would say no. They allow immigration and they allow asylum.

Next comes the balance between caring for others and seeing that one's own society is not so overwhelmed that it is compromised. Little doubt now, I think, society is compromised by the number of illegals. Political factions are using immigration to buy votes, government unions which provide social service are encouraging illegal immigration not out of charity but to line their own pockets, families are under stress because they are being asked to provide tax support for illegals beyond what they can provide for themselves (medical care for instance). There is the problem of crime. Society has a right to screen out those who would undermine it. With millions entering illegally, that is not being done.

[CyberPaladin]

Immigration laws are neccasary to protect people from terrorist and as well as regular criminals and we need stricter enforcement. I support immigration as long as there is system in place to offer some assurance to our citzens.

[Nicki4Christ]

I agree the proper channels should be taken. I am fed up with the illegal hispanic workers that come to the U.S and undercut jobs.
I have seen many construction trades re-thinking what line of work they are in. It is really sad that an American worker has to plead for a decent wage, because it has been put in some contractors head that they can just get an illegal to do the job for half pay. Scary and Sad.

I also think that anyone that hires an illegal alien should be fined. Or maybe a (builder) license should be revoked . Nothing is being done. Our local police where I live, have even said that their hands are tied.

We need tougher border control. Where is that wall that was talked about? Or was that in one of my dreams? I could go on and on. But I'll save it, for another day. I do pray for this Nations Security, and pray others will see that this affects more than just job wages, it affects health care and government aid also.:cry:
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[Macrina]

Good topic. I hope our non-American friends won't mind another U.S.-centric thread, because this is such a difficult issue.

On an individual level, I have great compassion for those who come here illegally. I know that many of them are coming from terrible situations, and I can see why they'd do what they did. I'm not excusing it, just saying that on a person-to-person level, it's a heavy matter.

I agree with those who said that we need stricter enforcement for those who employ illegal workers. As long as there are jobs, people will keep coming to fill them.

Border control is also important. It seems like the southern border of the country is just porous, and I don't know exactly how we'd secure it -- but something's got to be done.

One of the biggest problems that I see is that emergency rooms, schools, and other such services in the Southwest (and spreading elsewhere) are overrun with illegal immigrants who use the services, but aren't paying into the system via tax dollars. Right now, the system isn't sustainable. Yeah, I want everybody to have health care and an education -- but some areas are stretched so thin that it's become nearly impossible.

I'm all in favor of legal immigration. In fact, I would like to see illegal immigration curtailed precisely so that more people could come in legally. Our country values people who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families, and part of the shame of illegal immigration is that it reduces what we are able to do in terms of legal, fully-integrated immigrants.

[IamRedeemed]

I am in agreement with most everything that has been said, if not all. :thumbsup:


What do I think about illegal immigration? It's illegal. If they're caught, they should be sent back to their country of origin. If they want to stay in the United States, they should do it properly, like all of the immigrants who are going through the necessary processes. I also believe that companies using illegal immigrants should be fined ... heavily.

It is immoral to support immoral or injust laws so one question is if the immigration laws are either.

In general, I would say no. They allow immigration and they allow asylum.

Next comes the balance between caring for others and seeing that one's own society is not so overwhelmed that it is compromised. Little doubt now, I think, society is compromised by the number of illegals. Political factions are using immigration to buy votes, government unions which provide social service are encouraging illegal immigration not out of charity but to line their own pockets, families are under stress because they are being asked to provide tax support for illegals beyond what they can provide for themselves (medical care for instance). There is the problem of crime. Society has a right to screen out those who would undermine it. With millions entering illegally, that is not being done.

Immigration laws are neccasary to protect people from terrorist and as well as regular criminals and we need stricter enforcement. I support immigration as long as there is system in place to offer some assurance to our citzens.

I agree the proper channels should be taken. I am fed up with the illegal hispanic workers that come to the U.S and undercut jobs.
I have seen many construction trades re-thinking what line of work they are in. It is really sad that an American worker has to plead for a decent wage, because it has been put in some contractors head that they can just get an illegal to do the job for half pay. Scary and Sad.

I also think that anyone that hires an illegal alien should be fined. Or maybe a (builder) license should be revoked . Nothing is being done. Our local police where I live, have even said that their hands are tied.

We need tougher border control. Where is that wall that was talked about? Or was that in one of my dreams? I could go on and on. But I'll save it, for another day. I do pray for this Nations Security, and pray others will see that this affects more than just job wages, it affects health care and government aid also.:cry:
</IMG>

Good topic. I hope our non-American friends won't mind another U.S.-centric thread, because this is such a difficult issue.

On an individual level, I have great compassion for those who come here illegally. I know that many of them are coming from terrible situations, and I can see why they'd do what they did. I'm not excusing it, just saying that on a person-to-person level, it's a heavy matter.

I agree with those who said that we need stricter enforcement for those who employ illegal workers. As long as there are jobs, people will keep coming to fill them.

Border control is also important. It seems like the southern border of the country is just porous, and I don't know exactly how we'd secure it -- but something's got to be done.

One of the biggest problems that I see is that emergency rooms, schools, and other such services in the Southwest (and spreading elsewhere) are overrun with illegal immigrants who use the services, but aren't paying into the system via tax dollars. Right now, the system isn't sustainable. Yeah, I want everybody to have health care and an education -- but some areas are stretched so thin that it's become nearly impossible.

I'm all in favor of legal immigration. In fact, I would like to see illegal immigration curtailed precisely so that more people could come in legally. Our country values people who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families, and part of the shame of illegal immigration is that it reduces what we are able to do in terms of legal, fully-integrated immigrants.

[Sothron]

I am against it. It is a violation of a law that is not immoral and does not compromise our faith as Christians. I agree that these people should be caught and sent back to the respective countries where they can then apply for *legal* immigration.

[GreenMunchkin]

Interesting topic. Actually, my thoughts are gonna sound dreadfully remedial, but I can't help distinguish between the ones who simply want to live elsewhere, perhaps for financial reasons, and ones who are perhaps escaping persecution... specifically for being Christian.

I know legally the rules aren't different for the two types, but morally and spiritually I can't help but view them differently.

[Macrina]

Interesting topic. Actually, my thoughts are gonna sound dreadfully remedial, but I can't help distinguish between the ones who simply want to live elsewhere, perhaps for financial reasons, and ones who are perhaps escaping persecution... specifically for being Christian.

I know legally the rules aren't different for the two types, but morally and spiritually I can't help but view them differently.

Yeah, I get that. The vast majority are in the former category, though, not the latter. And while it's not easy, there is provision in our system for someone who would like to seek political asylum from persecution.

[MrJim]

I've worked with Mexicans, many illegal, for over 15 years. Some have even gone on to become citizens. They're an interesting people, the ones I met though sure didn't like Cubans or Puerto Ricans^_^

They are some very diligent hard working folks.

HOWEVER, words that best describe my thoughts on illegal immigration:

Raids
Razor wire
Collection camps
Machine guns
Fences
Deportation
Streamlined legal worker programs

These tend to come up in conversations about illegal immigration, and I'd be willing to help start a new gov't agency to begin the round up. Ted Kennedy called types like me Gestapo, but I'd come up with a better name than that ;), and some cool uniforms too.:cool:

And those knowingly hiring illegals would hang (well, figuratively anyhow). Keep in mind, when my company hires all we are required is SSN, Green Card, Driver's License. I think it's like 2 of the 3 or some combination. Our CEO's sister is an immigration attorney in DC and she said we did not have to verify the information, but if info came back saying they were illegal we had to fire~and it does happen on occaison. AND we couldn't rehire if they came back under a different name-which they do try.

I asked one guy about the illegal documents-he said a fake driver's license went for about $300 (that was a few years ago)...we had one guy get pulled over when cops ran the tags and they didn't match the car. Turns out the guy was wanted. They took him in (PA State Police). Turns out he was illegal, he didn't match the profile of the person on the ID. When the called INS in Philly the agent said they wouldn't drive out here for one person:doh: so they let him go. Dude showed up two months later with new ID but I told him I couldn't hire him.

This was all back about 6-7 years ago I guess....

[magdiel]

Okay my stance:
The laws must be upheld. Anyone illegally here is breaking the law.

The laws must be upheld to defend those that may cause harm to US citizens because those illegally here are not verified. So the problems and crimes they may have had in the past are not known and can be done again.
I know that when I used to go work, I had at times between jobs have gone to the temp agency. this temp agency did not inquire about anything, and sometimes jobs went to others in a town that is nationally on the news.
That "town" is to me a city. On CNN they call it a small town but to us it is not, it is one of the biggest cities around my area.
Hazleton PA, I live 10-12 miles from it. You will see it mentioned by Lou Dobbs all the time if you watch him.
I am just waiting for Lou Barletta ( the mayor) to run for governer. :)


A big but...............
I believe the laws should be changed. Not as purposed, the gov cannot process 20 million illlegals when it cannot even process passports for citizens in a timely manner. LOL.

I believe that all people should be given a chance at a better life, a hope for finances for themselves and/or to send back to their families no matter the country.

I have worked with illegals from various countries years ago in the resturant business. They where treated awful by owners and either transported everyday from the City (New York City) when I lived in Jersey or just housed in cruddy places nearby.

I don't think God sees borders and God wants all ppl to live free and make a living for their families.
So the laws have to be changed.

The laws need to be upheld but they need to be changed into just laws. How long that will take and what it will involve only God knows.

[magdiel]

I've worked with Mexicans, many illegal, for over 15 years. Some have even gone on to become citizens. They're an interesting people, the ones I met though sure didn't like Cubans or Puerto Ricans^_^

They are some very diligent hard working folks.

Very hard workers.

HOWEVER, words that best describe my thoughts on illegal immigration:

Raids
Razor wire
Collection camps
Machine guns
Fences
Deportation
Streamlined legal worker programs

These tend to come up in conversations about illegal immigration, and I'd be willing to help start a new gov't agency to begin the round up. Ted Kennedy called types like me Gestapo, but I'd come up with a better name than that ;), and some cool uniforms too.:cool:

And those knowingly hiring illegals would hang (well, figuratively anyhow). Keep in mind, when my company hires all we are required is SSN, Green Card, Driver's License. I think it's like 2 of the 3 or some combination. Our CEO's sister is an immigration attorney in DC and she said we did not have to verify the information, but if info came back saying they were illegal we had to fire~and it does happen on occaison. AND we couldn't rehire if they came back under a different name-which they do try.

I asked one guy about the illegal documents-he said a fake driver's license went for about $300 (that was a few years ago)...we had one guy get pulled over when cops ran the tags and they didn't match the car. Turns out the guy was wanted. They took him in (PA State Police). Turns out he was illegal, he didn't match the profile of the person on the ID. When the called INS in Philly the agent said they wouldn't drive out here for one person:doh: so they let him go. Dude showed up two months later with new ID but I told him I couldn't hire him.

This was all back about 6-7 years ago I guess....

I used to be a manager at McDonald's..no applause or laughing please :P , but what was required was 2 forms of ID.
Birth certificate or green card or drivers license
and a SS card.

This is in PA too.
One cannot hire a person if they follow the rules, that is illegal. Unless they have forged documents, but that can be checked. sigh.

[CyberPaladin]

Mr. Jim I agree with your list expect you forgot minefield, Apache helicopters, and Hellfire Missles.

[MrJim]

Mr. Jim I agree with your list expect you forgot minefield, Apache helicopters, and Hellfire Missles.

I knew you'd come along and round out the list:clap:

[ContentInHim]

I agree with everything posted above.

I am in total sympathy with those who come here to make a better life, but breaking the law doesn't make for a good start. In addition, for every sincerely well-intentioned hard working family person who arrives, there are 20 others who are here for the "loot". Just look at the New England states and their populations. States like Mass. have huge immigrant populations due to high benefits. Others, like Maine (one of my personal favorites) pay next to no benefits to immigrants, legal or otherwise! :)

What do you all think about alien mothers giving birth to babies and then fighting to stay in the USA with their "citizen" infants? Is the USA the only country to allow this? Is it time for this boondoggle to end?

[hedead4me]

Friends, we must remember that these Mexicans ARE Catholic. They do beleive in Jesus, and arent we a CHRISTIAN nation? I would rather deport the liberals who support bombarding our children with homosexual media than god-fearing, spanish speaking people. At least the Mexicans are beleivers!

[magdiel]

I agree with everything posted above.

I am in total sympathy with those who come here to make a better life, but breaking the law doesn't make for a good start. In addition, for every sincerely well-intentioned hard working family person who arrives, there are 20 others who are here for the "loot". Just look at the New England states and their populations. States like Mass. have huge immigrant populations due to high benefits. Others, like Maine (one of my personal favorites) pay next to no benefits to immigrants, legal or otherwise! :)

What do you all think about alien mothers giving birth to babies and then fighting to stay in the USA with their "citizen" infants? Is the USA the only country to allow this? Is it time for this boondoggle to end?

Well I don't know what boondoggle means? :)
And I don't "think" the ratio of ppl illegally here is 20 to 1 that are here for good for themselves opposed to something bad.

But I am in agreement about breaking the law.
I don't know how with the limited resorces that anyone can change the laws to do the right thing, what everthat is.
And how would someone decide who should be here or not, there is not enough money nor man power to do all that....ever..

[Lisa0315]

Is there a Conservative Christian POV on this? If so, can you articulate it and justify it? I would suppose that respect for law, what's fair when some choose illegal entry and others the legal route, costs and benefits to the country, and similar aspects of this are all open for discussion.

It looks like we are all in agreement on this one. For once, I actually wish you had a poll.

Legal immigration rocks! Illegal immigration drains our resources.

BTW, it is not just illegals who are taking advantage of the system. I was just in Mexico, and we had to walk across the border simply because the lines are so long in the mornings. The reason? Women get a day pass into the USA, have their babies in the USA, then, receive benefits for their children including education. They travel across the border each day to take their kids to and from school. It is one more abuse of the current system.

Lisa

[magdiel]

Friends, we must remember that these Mexicans ARE Catholic. They do beleive in Jesus, and arent we a CHRISTIAN nation? I would rather deport the liberals who support bombarding our children with homosexual media than god-fearing, spanish speaking people. At least the Mexicans are beleivers!
They are not all Catholic, but a magority is Chistian to say the least. They may be Cathoic by denom more than anything else though.
Yes we are a Christian nation, and we should love and treat all like Jesus would.
But the laws must be changed.

But I would like to add if they are not Christian that want to enter the country legally, that should not make a difference, because we are to love all ppl the same.

[magdiel]

It looks like we are all in agreement on this one. For once, I actually wish you had a poll.

Legal immigration rocks! Illegal immigration drains our resources.

BTW, it is not just illegals who are taking advantage of the system. I was just in Mexico, and we had to walk across the border simply because the lines are so long in the mornings. The reason? Women get a day pass into the USA, have their babies in the USA, then, receive benefits for their children including education. They travel across the border each day to take their kids to and from school. It is one more abuse of the current system.

Lisa

Lisa, If I remember right, a child does not have to born in the US to have an education here. Say CA, a child illegally here, this is not the mom that gave birth here, is still entitled to public school.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, If I remember right, a child does not have to born in the US to have an education here. Say CA, a child illegally here, this is not the mom that gave birth here, is still entitled to public school.

The parents reside in Mexico. They cross the border with the child on a daily basis to take the children to a US school. The child has dual residence. The parents, in some cases, do not. Regardless, they are not residents of the US. I was told this explanation by our Plant Controller who is Mexican.

Lisa

[magdiel]

The parents reside in Mexico. They cross the border with the child on a daily basis to take the children to a US school. The child has dual residence. The parents, in some cases, do not. Regardless, they are not residents of the US. I was told this explanation by our Plant Controller who is Mexican.

Lisa

Thank you Lisa for your explanation.
I don't think the child even needs dual residence to go to school here though. A child does not have to prove anything to be enrolled in the public school system with what a remember.
One can be illegally here and still go to school in certain states.

If someone refutes that please state it. Thanks.

[Lisa0315]

Thank you Lisa for your explanation.
I don't think the child even needs dual residence to go to school here though. A child does not have to prove anything to be enrolled in the public school system with what a remember.
One can be illegally here and still go to school in certain states.

If someone refutes that please state it. Thanks.

No, that is correct. I am just pointing out that it is not just illegals who are taking advantage, but there is another loophole in the system. Yes, that child deserves everything that Americal has to offer because it is a citizan of this country. However, it is not right because the parents are not paying taxes here.

Lisa

[magdiel]

No, that is correct. I am just pointing out that it is not just illegals who are taking advantage, but there is another loophole in the system. Yes, that child deserves everything that Americal has to offer because it is a citizan of this country. However, it is not right because the parents are not paying taxes here.

Lisa
Thanks for clearing that up. You are right sweetie, the parents are not paying taxes and that is not right.

There needs to be a big reform and change of the laws. How and what that would entail, I do not know in the slightest.

Lisa forget about being a mod, you should run for a government office.
If you have never thought about it, you should. Really!

[Lisa0315]

Thanks for clearing that up. You are right sweetie, the parents are not paying taxes and that is not right.

There needs to be a big reform and change of the laws.

Lisa forget about being a mod, you should run for a government office.
If you have never thought about it, you should. Really!

Girl, No! I am a Christian! :cool:

I am in Cost Accounting, and I love it. I don't do so much accounting anymore as Operations. I am one of the fortunate few who actually love their jobs.

Lisa

[Tangeloper]

I know legally the rules aren't different for the two types, but morally and spiritually I can't help but view them differently.
*******************************************
DISCLAIMER: 1. My own sister is Half-Mexican, so no, contrary to what I hear when I talk about this issue I am NOT a racist or a bigot. 2. While I will make some broad generalizations and I KNOW that this doesn't apply to ALL illegal aliens, I am basing my comments on personal experience as a caucasian that lived within a largely Mexican (and illegal alien) community in Denver for several years. OK, now that that is out of the way.... (Kind of sad I feel a need to preface my comments like this).
*******************************************
There are laws in place for those who are political (and I would think) religious refugees. Although admittedly I am not sure of the exact rules. This is, I believe, a different issue from that of your average illegal alien (from ANY country).

While naturally the focus has been on those illegal aliens from south of our U.S. border, we must also not forget -- especially when we are fighting the WOT -- that there are terrorists among our illegal immigrant population as well. Many use the porous borders (both North and South) to enter our country illegally. It simply baffles me why border enforcement hasn't been increased in our post-9/11 world. I see this as a dire necessity for the safety and security of our country.

There are also so many consequences to illegal immigration. Many have mentioned these problems already on the thread (wages, jobs, social services, ID Theft & Fraud), as well as other costs to the average citizen [higher taxes to fund schools, higher medical costs to cover Emergency Room costs -- especially in large cities, less social services and more hassle to citizens who really need help due to those who defraud the system due to being here illegally, higher costs of car insurance due to the number of unlicensed/uninsured drivers, not to mention that many illegal immigrants commit other crimes (gang violence, shoplifting, etc...) that in turn cost the society even more. Higher prices for rental units even in bad areas due to landlords attempting to keep illegal aliens (many of whom have a bad reputation in regards to paying rent, and taking care of the properties). These figures are often not totaled in.]

Just FYI, I lived in west Denver for 2 1/2 years, and just outside that area for another 1 1/2 years. Many know that Denver could definitely considered a "sanctuary city" It was not a pleasant time in my family's life, and I thank the Lord that we were able to raise ourselves up out of that and move to an area with a much lower cost of living. I have seen these problems first hand, and it really is that bad -- if not worse than most people see. (I can't count the times a helicopter searched my backyard looking for a criminal, and I sadly can't count the times I heard gunfire in my neighborhood -- the culture shock was almost too much to bear...).

Obviously I could go on and on about this topic, but to sum it all up -- Illegal means exactly what it means. Illegal aliens must break numerous laws on a daily basis (besides immigration rules) in order to survive within our society. Seeing as there are many legal immigrants from all over the world who follow the rules and come here legally I don't see any excuse for those people who decide to break those laws. It's sad that their countries are messed up (i.e. Mexico), but the problem will never be solved by running away, and the U.S. cannot absorb these problems without destroying the very things some people are seeking when they come here illegally. Those who are searching for a better life for themselves and their posterity must work, and work hard to improve their country -- just as LEGAL immigrants and citizens throughout history did when coming to the U.S..

Oh, one more thing -- I'm all for easing some of the LEGAL immigration rules, but I'm against ANY sort of amnesty for those here illegally (they knew the consequences when they made their decision to violate the law in the first place -- they have no right to expect to escape the consequences of their own actions).

I know this was a long post -- my thanks to those who took the time to read it!:wave:

~~ Tangeloper

[CyberPaladin]

Girl, No! I am a Christian! :cool:

I am in Cost Accounting, and I love it. I don't do so much accounting anymore as Operations. I am one of the fortunate few who actually love their jobs.

Lisa
Lisa your a very fortunate to have such a great job as being a cost accountant.

[Voegelin]

I was arrested for being an illegal alien once. I think I got to meet the entire police force in the Mexican town in which I was detained. They were hugely amused by it all.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa your a very fortunate to have such a great job as being a cost accountant.

I know sweetie, and I Thank the Lord for it every day. Have you had any luck yet?

Lisa

[Tangeloper]

What do you all think about alien mothers giving birth to babies and then fighting to stay in the USA with their "citizen" infants? Is the USA the only country to allow this? Is it time for this boondoggle to end?

Yep, the so-called Anchor Babies. IMHO, the practice of becoming a citizen just because you were born here -- even if neither of your parents are a citizen -- has got to end. I may sound cruel, but these minors should be dealt with in this way -- when their parents are deported they should either go back with them, or their parents should find a citizen willing to sponsor them, or take legal guardianship of them.

The ones who go back with their parents should be allowed back in the U.S. when they reach the age of majority if that is their wish. This may sound harsh, but their parents are the ones who broke the law in the first place. They should not blame the government if they are separated from their parents, they should lay the blame where it belongs -- their parents! THEY are the ones who decided to put their children in such a precarious situation. (The same goes for those older children brought here illegally. You know the ones who complain that they don't know their native language and "can't go back". Well, sorry, but blame your parents for their failure in keeping you safe from these things. They, again, are the ones who made the decisions you are suffering for.)

~~ Tangeloper

[Tangeloper]

I was arrested for being an illegal alien once. I think I got to meet the entire police force in the Mexican town in which I was detained. They were hugely amused by it all.

You're lucky you didn't end up in a Mexican prison for a long time... Their illegal immigration laws are much, much worse than ours! Illegal Mexican immigrants complain that our laws are unjust, but if an American were caught and convicted of being in their country illegally they don't get a simple ride to the border, or let go! I wonder what these people would say if we copied Mexico's immigration laws...

[ContentInHim]

Well I don't know what boondoggle means? :)
And I don't "think" the ratio of ppl illegally here is 20 to 1 that are here for good for themselves opposed to something bad.

But I am in agreement about breaking the law.
I don't know how with the limited resorces that anyone can change the laws to do the right thing, what everthat is.
And how would someone decide who should be here or not, there is not enough money nor man power to do all that....ever..
LOL, you caught me in my exaggeration! :P

Boondoggle is like gravy-train! Pork barrel, etc. :hug:

[Tangeloper]

Friends, we must remember that these Mexicans ARE Catholic. They do beleive in Jesus, and arent we a CHRISTIAN nation? I would rather deport the liberals who support bombarding our children with homosexual media than god-fearing, spanish speaking people. At least the Mexicans are beleivers!

I just got back from running to the store, and I was thinking about your post... I understand what you are saying about Mexicans being Catholic, but you cannot use one's professed religious beliefs to justify breaking the law.

After all, we do not allow citizens to evade consequences for illegal acts merely because they claim to be Christian. One could also argue that the Catholic Church is not being a friend to these people regarding their stance on illegal immigration as they are arguing that their illegal actions should be overlooked, and these illegal actions can also be seen as violating God's Commandments...

Let me explain what I mean by the last statement:
1. Thou shalt not steal -- T
his, if I understand correctly does not just apply to shoplifting, or Grand Theft. Accepting and applying for social services you are not legally entitled to could be considered stealing from those who rightfully deserve it (and also decreasing the amount those people get). Identity Theft & Fraud also violates this Commandment -- and is one practice which every illegal alien must commit in order to work here.

2. Thou shalt not bear false witness -- (Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation) I don't think this just means we are not to lie about others. I would also think that this commandment could apply to issues of fraud as well.

While there are some laws that are unjust and could be dealt with by civil disobedience, those who choose such a course of action are under no illusion that they will not bear the consequences of such actions. People who engage in Civil Disobedience are fully aware that the consequences will be applied, and most likely harshly. They believe that the punishment is worth it to bring attention to something and effect change -- they do not seek to avoid responsibility for their own actions.

I'm sure others who are more familiar with Scripture than I could most likely provide more examples akin to the ones I presented above. In fact, I would welcome them to do so. After all this is a religious forum, and I think you brought up a very good salient point, when looking at this issue through the eyes of religion.

~~ Tangeloper (who apologizes for posting so much on this topic -- it's just one that arouses many deep feelings in me)

[CyberPaladin]

I know sweetie, and I Thank the Lord for it every day. Have you had any luck yet?

Lisa

Nope.:cry:

[Hishandmaiden]

What about, if sending the illegal immigrants back to their own country will result in death? Like in the case of North Korea. What are your stand, then, on that?

[Hishandmaiden]

The parents reside in Mexico. They cross the border with the child on a daily basis to take the children to a US school. The child has dual residence. The parents, in some cases, do not. Regardless, they are not residents of the US. I was told this explanation by our Plant Controller who is Mexican.

Lisa
In Singapore, we have a similar case to that, only, it is the malaysians who are doing it to us.

[Lisa0315]

What about, if sending the illegal immigrants back to their own country will result in death? Like in the case of North Korea. What are your stand, then, on that?

If we have offered political asylum, that is completely different. There are many Cubans here just for that very reason. If they make it to US shore, they are legal. I have no problem with that. However, there is still a process and laws are being observed. It is not right for millions of people to come here without being processed. Not right, and very dangerous.

Lisa

[magdiel]

LOL, you caught me in my exaggeration! :P

Boondoggle is like gravy-train! Pork barrel, etc. :hug:

Okay, I thougth you were using real numbers, but you were just using to numbers to prove the point (that there is a big difference) :thumbsup:

Gotcha with watch boondoggle means. :)

[twistedsketch]

Friends, we must remember that these Mexicans ARE Catholic. They do beleive in Jesus, and arent we a CHRISTIAN nation? I would rather deport the liberals who support bombarding our children with homosexual media than god-fearing, spanish speaking people. At least the Mexicans are beleivers!
Well, many of them are more of a mystical offshoot of Catholicism, rather than the more Scripturally solid Catholicism that many American Catholics have. They've got stuff like a patron saint of illegal drug smuggling (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/business/malverde.html) and exorcism by strangulation. (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0729exorcism0729-ON.html) A friend of mine who went down to Mexico on a missions trip tells me they never read the Bible, and don't see a need to.

Still, I can't say I would swap our immigration problems for Europe's. Most of their illegal immigrants are either terrorists or prone to becoming terrorists.

[MrJim]

I was arrested for being an illegal alien once. I think I got to meet the entire police force in the Mexican town in which I was detained. They were hugely amused by it all.

^_^ got any mugshots? Didja sneak across the Rio Grande one night? Were the people coming the other way snickering at ya and pointing a lot?:D

C'mon, fill in the details~!

[CyberPaladin]

^_^ got any mugshots? Didja sneak across the Rio Grande one night? Were the people coming the other way snickering at ya and pointing a lot?:D

C'mon, fill in the details~!
ROFL^_^ :clap: :clap:

[NewGuy101]

I just got back from running to the store, and I was thinking about your post... I understand what you are saying about Mexicans being Catholic, but you cannot use one's professed religious beliefs to justify breaking the law.

After all, we do not allow citizens to evade consequences for illegal acts merely because they claim to be Christian. One could also argue that the Catholic Church is not being a friend to these people regarding their stance on illegal immigration as they are arguing that their illegal actions should be overlooked, and these illegal actions can also be seen as violating God's Commandments...

Let me explain what I mean by the last statement:
1. Thou shalt not steal -- T
his, if I understand correctly does not just apply to shoplifting, or Grand Theft. Accepting and applying for social services you are not legally entitled to could be considered stealing from those who rightfully deserve it (and also decreasing the amount those people get). Identity Theft & Fraud also violates this Commandment -- and is one practice which every illegal alien must commit in order to work here.

2. Thou shalt not bear false witness -- (Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation) I don't think this just means we are not to lie about others. I would also think that this commandment could apply to issues of fraud as well.

While there are some laws that are unjust and could be dealt with by civil disobedience, those who choose such a course of action are under no illusion that they will not bear the consequences of such actions. People who engage in Civil Disobedience are fully aware that the consequences will be applied, and most likely harshly. They believe that the punishment is worth it to bring attention to something and effect change -- they do not seek to avoid responsibility for their own actions.

I'm sure others who are more familiar with Scripture than I could most likely provide more examples akin to the ones I presented above. In fact, I would welcome them to do so. After all this is a religious forum, and I think you brought up a very good salient point, when looking at this issue through the eyes of religion.

~~ Tangeloper (who apologizes for posting so much on this topic -- it's just one that arouses many deep feelings in me)



Slight problem with your proposition is that you are presupposing that the law is just. I came here to the states illegally fleeing the Guatemalan Civil War mainly because of American involvement. If I would have stayed, like many of my family members I would the risk of getting killed. Several immigrants come here with similar issues either fleeing for a chance for a better life or because they are persecuted for other reasons in their home country. Lets get something straight, no one would risk their life if they could stay in their country live their graciously.

Secondly I would like to point out that I do see a necessity for immigration regulation. I'm honest and reasonable unlike many illegals, I know that we cannot welcome everyone here with open arms there just isn't enough room. I’m probably more open about this issue because I am now a US resident. Believe me there just isn’t a better home here at the states where food is abundant and acquiring a job is much easier.

Finally we cannot separate the fact that many of these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can’t just say “religion doesn’t allow them to break the rules.” Well guess what, they are our brothers and sisters and although it would be impossible do find out who actually is a genuine Christian we have to deal with the fact that many of them are suffering and what to come here to not only glorify Christ but live a better life. I think this is an issue that Christians should stay away from because there is too much in the mix to deal with and we have brothers and sistes in both sides.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Is there a Conservative Christian POV on this? If so, can you articulate it and justify it? I would suppose that respect for law, what's fair when some choose illegal entry and others the legal route, costs and benefits to the country, and similar aspects of this are all open for discussion.
I'm very pro-immigration. Although I don't buy into the whole 'America is a nation of immigrants' myth (there's a major sociological difference between immigrants and settlers), I would be perfectly happy to do away with all immigration caps.

I don't think the children of illegals should be given U.S. citizenship, because the fourteenth amendment states that only the children of U.S. citizens or peoples subject to the jurisdiction thereof (of the United States) are eligible for automatic citizenship.

As it stands, illegal immigrants are criminals; they have broken federal law and should be deported or indicted.

However, I support a change in the law. Many of the reasons they are illegal are just plain silly; immigration caps for certain nations, cutting through the red tape of INS to reunite with families.

There should be season migrant worker visas, and everyone seeking residence here should have to learn English. Everybody seeking to come in the border should have to go through an extensive background check in both the United States and their former country of residence. There should be a health check.

But other than these basic restrictions- English, background check, and health check- I see no reason to deny perminant residence to anybody who wants it.

[nyj]

I'm very pro-immigration. Although I don't buy into the whole 'America is a nation of immigrants' myth (there's a major sociological difference between immigrants and settlers), I would be perfectly happy to do away with all immigration caps.
So would you call Italian and Irish immigrants to the US, settlers?

[Lisa0315]

So would you call Italian and Irish immigrants to the US, settlers?

New Yorkers? ^_^

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So would you call Italian and Irish immigrants to the US, settlers?
Nope. They're immigrants, who migrated into a preexisting settler-culture and in turn assimilated.

[nyj]

Nope. They're immigrants, who migrated into a preexisting settler-culture and in turn assimilated.So, since they were immigrants ... what part of "America is a nation of immigrants" is so mythological?

[Tangeloper]

Slight problem with your proposition is that you are presupposing that the law is just. I came here to the states illegally fleeing the Guatemalan Civil War mainly because of American involvement. If I would have stayed, like many of my family members I would the risk of getting killed. Several immigrants come here with similar issues either fleeing for a chance for a better life or because they are persecuted for other reasons in their home country. Lets get something straight, no one would risk their life if they could stay in their country live their graciously.

I never said that I assumed all of our immigration laws were just. I recognize a need for reform of our immigration laws -- there are those who have applied legally and have waited YEARS to be reunited with their families, or even have the chance to come here to better their lives. There is also a difference between political and religious refugees and other illegal immigrants. [I am familiar with those immigrants who come here as political refugees -- both of my neighbors are Hmong. The difference is that these families are here legally vs. the families I lived next to in west Denver, who were not... And yes, there is a HUGE difference in the way they relate to and affect our society.]


Secondly I would like to point out that I do see a necessity for immigration regulation. I'm honest and reasonable unlike many illegals, I know that we cannot welcome everyone here with open arms there just isn't enough room. I’m probably more open about this issue because I am now a US resident. Believe me there just isn’t a better home here at the states where food is abundant and acquiring a job is much easier.

I too see a need for regulation, and reformation of our immigration process. You mention that you are now a US resident -- here legally. How do you feel about those who choose to live outside the system and make no attempt to legalize their status here? Those are the people I am referring to.

Also, the illegal aliens are not treated with respect -- indeed, those who are working (I'll ignore the ID Fraud issue for a moment here) are often treated as modern-day slaves. That is another problem that I have with the recently proposed "guest worker" program which I am afraid will become another way for employers to legally treat these people as if they were slaves.

Finally we cannot separate the fact that many of these people are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can’t just say “religion doesn’t allow them to break the rules.” Well guess what, they are our brothers and sisters and although it would be impossible do find out who actually is a genuine Christian we have to deal with the fact that many of them are suffering and what to come here to not only glorify Christ but live a better life. I think this is an issue that Christians should stay away from because there is too much in the mix to deal with and we have brothers and sistes in both sides.

I was not suggesting that we ignore the fact that some of these illegal immigrants are Christians. What I really don't understand is the difference between those who choose to work within the system and immigrate here legally, and those who choose to ignore the laws to do so. If we as Christians want to help these people, perhaps we should focus on helping them to make life better in their home countries as well.

Also, please know that I worked and lived in a large Mexican community in Denver for approximately 3 1/2 years. I also worked within the neighborhood. I have many good friends who are LEGAL immigrants from Mexico and other Spanish-speaking countries. I have also seen the problems within the Mexican community in Denver -- both for Mexicans and caucasians who were living side-by-side. The legal immigrants I knew detested the illegal immigrants not only because they were working hard to do things the right way, but because some of the illegal aliens (particularly the young males) brought the social problems WITH them to our country. I.E. the Gang warfare came with them, the drinking, the disrespect for women, the penchant for sexually assaulting people, as well as anti-caucasian sentiments (also their loyalty to Mexico vs. the U.S. -- as evidenced by their jubilant celebration of Cinco de Mayo, and their total non-celebration of Independence Day). I was personally affected by the anti-caucasian sentiments, and the sexual abuse problems.

When I was sexually assaulted I was told by the police that it would be virtually impossible to look for my attacker not only because there were so many with his basic features, but also because our local precinct was stretched disastrously thin, and extremely busy dealing with the problems that accompany neighborhoods steeped in poverty. By the way, I personally knew the Precinct Captain (before I even moved to the area) and he confirmed these things re: looking for my attacker, so not even those of us with personal relationships get better treatment in this regard.

Please note -- several blocks away we had a very large Vietnamese immigrant population as well, and although there were some problems with crime much like that within the Mexican community, we didn't see these people among those we (for instance) apprehended for shoplifting in the large discount department store I worked in. DAILY we did apprehend those who were Hispanic/Latino/Mexican. The difference I think was that within the Hispanic/Latino/Mexican community a great many of them were here illegally vs. the Vietnamese immigrants who were almost exclusively here legally.

Please keep in mind that my sister is Half-Mexican, so the above does NOT have anything to do with racism, or bigotry against Hispanics/Latinos/Mexicans, it is simply reporting of first-hand observations.

Also, please remember that some of those here illegally (especially those who have overstayed visas) are NOT here to make a better life for themselves -- particularly those who take advantage of the lax immigration enforcement as part of their plans to attack the U.S. from inside -- yes, I am talking about terrorists loyal to Radical/Militant Islam. There have been many cases of these people identifying themselves as Hispanic/Mexican/Latino due to their physical appearance. This makes it a safety issue for all of those within the U.S. as well.

You suggested that we as Christians should stay away from this topic. I respectfully disagree. If anything we, as Christians, should be the ones very vocal in the overhaul of our immigration system. Our compassion should guide us in our goal to ensure that people around the world are free to not only live prosperous, comfortable lives, but also ensure that they are free to worship Christ our Lord. Barring our ability to do that I believe our priority as far as who we let immigrate should carefully balance those who are oppressed, and those who can offer something to our society (i.e. those who are able to come here, and NOT rely on goverment services for their welfare -- see Canada's immigration policy for example).

This is such a complicated, and emotional issue. And, I hope it is one we can resolve soon. I'm encouraged by the conversation on this board in particular because usually these discussions denegrate into accusations of intolerance, racism, bigotry, etc... Which in turn only pushes a resolution farther away and creates more animosity. I'm very hopeful that we can resolve this in a way that is fair to all concerned, because I see my sister struggle with racism directed towards her as because of her physical attributes (being Half-Mexican) she is often treated with disdain, and that is painful for her, and all who love her as well.

Finally (boy, this has been a LONG post, hasn't it!) -- I'm very happy for you that you are here, and I would like to thank you for taking the step to legalize your status. I wish it were easier (and less financially oppressive) for people such as yourself to go through the process and attain your citizenship.

You are right that the U.S. is still the best place to live in regards to freedom and opportunity, and I do thank the Lord that I was born here vs. elsewhere in our world. I also pray that other countries around the world will someday emulate the U.S. and that need for immigration will disappear!

I hope we can continue this discussion, and I thank you for responding to my post. I find sometimes my anger and frustration and personal experiences DO affect my compassion at times. And I thank you for reminding me and softening my heart a little bit. I still believe that amnesty is NOT the way to go -- especially as was recently proposed by our Congress, but I have a renewed "enthusiasm" for trying to figure out a way to resolve this problem so that people are not unnecessarily put at risk...

Respectfully,
Tangeloper

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So, since they were immigrants ... what part of "America is a nation of immigrants" is so mythological?
Myth does not mean wholly untrue. It means a collective telling with a kernal of truth but which, nevertheless, is untrue.

America is a nation of settlers, additionally populated by immigrants who assimilated into the preexisting Anglo-Protestant culture.

[Brennin]

I want to put a stop to it. However, I think most of the blame should be placed on the employers and others who entice the illegal immigrants, and not the illegal immigrants themselves. (It is hard to fault them for wanting a better life.)

[twistedsketch]

I want to put a stop to it. However, I think most of the blame should be placed on the employers and others who entice the illegal immigrants, and not the illegal immigrants themselves. (It is hard to fault them for wanting a better life.)
You can't effectively stop it and not include all parties involved. The laws on the employers are not enforced nearly enough. If people start complaining about needing the cheap labor, fight to have the minimum wage revoked instead. We've got to have control over who comes into this country.