Please make yourself familiar with the forum rules

[Jim47]

You can find this rule in the link at the bottom of each page. These are the master rules and no forum specific rules can alter this rules meaning. Keep this in mind when visitors post here, you can limit what they say but you can not exclude them from your forum simply becasue they are not MJs


1.4 Subforums and Congregational Areas

1.4 No forum (with the exception of the teen forums) will restrict entry or participation based upon a member's religious beliefs or lack thereof. Members are expected to obey all of a sub-forum’s rules while posting there. Each forum is empowered to elect their own moderators and to establish their own rules regarding decorum, acceptable subject matter for posting, as well as who may participate in voting and/or their rules-making process. Congregational Forums may limit debate to members of their own denomination, insist that all posts conform to their creed, or bar guests from editing their forum-specific wiki. This will allow congregational forums to remain safe havens if they so desire.

[HadassahSukkot]

I do not believe that anyone is advocating only MJs posting here... rather that the posting material be in adherance with the rules, even the former ones such as flaming and hate-speech..

[Bananna]

I agree we would like people to all abide by the no flaming rules here.

bananna

[Sephania]

Please make yourself familiar with the forum rules
May I suggest you do the same Jim? Site wide rule 1.4 states:

Members are expected to obey all of a sub-forum’s rules while posting there.

Our rules do not allow anti_ Jewish speech, which was reported twice and you closed the report with no violation.

If these are not to be abided by, there is no sense in the denominational wiki even to exist.

Messianic Judaism Forum Additions

2.1 Examples of Flaming in the MJF would include:
Making Anti-Jewish or white supremacist remarks
Making Anti-Zionist or Anti-Israel remarks ( this would include Holocaust denial)
Calling any member of the MJF a Judaizer or Pharisee
Slandering members because of their Torah observance.
Accusing MJ's of doing works for salvation.
Criticizing those who follow and keep Torah
Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestryThe rules apparently were changed over the weekend so I need to ammend the wiki, it would now fall under 1.8 instead of 2.1, but regardless,it is in our FSR's and should be upheld by our Supervisor.

[insaneinthebrain]

So, we've got an anti-semite posting here and a mod backing him up and closing reports without allowing any other staff input? Pathetic. This forum can rot in Hell for all I care.

[Bananna]

So, we've got an anti-semite posting here and a mod backing him up and closing reports without allowing any other staff input? Pathetic. This forum can rot in Hell for all I care.
Well that is not what I consider edifying or helpful, I'll be praying for you brother. Loving one another can be a difficult task.

bananna

[insaneinthebrain]

Well that is not what I consider edifying or helpful, I'll be praying for you brother. Loving one another can be a difficult task.

bananna
Sometimes a little tough love is required, and if I'm going to be told that someone who's anti-Israel can come in here and state his agreement with Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies (contrary to our FSRs I might add), then that's the kind of love I'll hand out. Do I have to turn a blind eye to one anti-semitic person at the expense of several Jewish friends who hang out here? I think not. I'll eat an emergency ban for harassment before I lay down and accept it.

[Henaynei]

Sometimes a little tough love is required, and if I'm going to be told that someone who's anti-Israel can come in here and state his agreement with Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies (contrary to our FSRs I might add), then that's the kind of love I'll hand out. Do I have to turn a blind eye to one anti-semitic person at the expense of several Jewish friends who hang out here? I think not. I'll eat an emergency ban for harassment before I lay down and accept it.Bless you!!:thumbsup:

[Sephania]

So, we've got an anti-semite posting here and a mod backing him up and closing reports without allowing any other staff input? Pathetic. This forum can rot in Hell for all I care.Let's give him a chance iitb, it seems he was just added to our forum as Sup, and is probably not up to speed on our FSR yet, that I why I suggested he go and review them. The closing of the report though is troublesome.

[Sephania]

Sometimes a little tough love is required, and if I'm going to be told that someone who's anti-Israel can come in here and state his agreement with Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies (contrary to our FSRs I might add), then that's the kind of love I'll hand out. Do I have to turn a blind eye to one anti-semitic person at the expense of several Jewish friends who hang out here? I think not. I'll eat an emergency ban for harassment before I lay down and accept it.But in what way would that be helpful, then your voice would not be heard at all.

be respectful and be heard. :)

Be not rash with thy mouth.......................

[Henaynei]

there are some things worth being intensely passionate and unrelenting about .... there are things worth NOT being gentle and "correct" in communicating ...

and if one comes in a position of authority into a forum where Jews and those supportive of Jews are active it is not unreasonable to think that person would have a basic understanding of such things as these reports highlight...

[Jim47]

Ok, lets use this thread to educate me and maybe we can come to an agreement. I am all for enforcing your rules. All I am saying is that your rules can not over ride the CF forum rules. Ah=gain, you can limit what people say, but you can not exclude them. I saw no violation in the report I closed, so if you see there is one then posint me to that report and tell me how it violated your rules and how your rules aren't in violation of CF forum rules.

I will work with you best I am able to. :)

So now the beans are in your pot, Train me :P

[Wags]

I'm curious - Do the CF forum rules allow someone to harass another (or in this case an entire subforum) based on their race?

[Henaynei]

it was exactly limiting what was being said that was the crux of the report.

[Sephania]

Hi Jim,
I hope you have had the opportunity to go through our wiki in regard to our FSR. Without overriding the Site rules we have made descioins on what constitutes a flame to us as MJ Believers and Jews.

For someone to come into our forum and say they agree with hate speech against Jews should not be allowed and would fall under our 2.1 ( needs to be fixed, I know)

Examples of Flaming in the MJF would include:
Making Anti-Jewish or white supremacist remarks
Making Anti-Zionist or Anti-Israel remarks ( this would include Holocaust denial)
Calling any member of the MJF a Judaizer or Pharisee
Slandering members because of their Torah observance.
Accusing MJ's of doing works for salvation.
Criticizing those who follow and keep Torah
Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestryWhat the poster was saying is he agrees with this in red:

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow... For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."
(Eighth)"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."

[Henaynei]

the person in question is a non-Messianic and thus is limited to non-teaching and non-debate...

Messianic Judaism Forum Additions

Posting Guidelines

Light debate is accepted as long as there are no teachings against a set standard such as the Trinity(or some other determined standard)

Teaching that does not proselytize or teach against a set standard (to be determined...) is acceptable.

1. Debate against the Messiahship of Yeshua is not allowed.
2. Teachings of the NT may only be argued by MJ's and NTMJ's

Answers to questions that are directly related to MJ by the Non-Trinitarian MJs, and the Christians who are MJ in lifestyle, and questions that are directly related to Judiasm by the Jews are acceptable...Again, as long as the teaching does not come against a set standard.

Soft debate (needs to be determined) is allowed for all Trinitarian Christians.

For those who do not practice Messianic Judaism in any way, shape, or form and/or are against Messianic Judaism and/or their doctrine and or the Jewish people, you are welcome to post fellowship posts and/or ask questions only.


2.1 Examples of Flaming in the MJF would include:

Making Anti-Jewish or white supremacist remarks
Making Anti-Zionist or Anti-Israel remarks ( this would include Holocaust denial)
Calling any member of the MJF a Judaizer or Pharisee
Slandering members because of their Torah observance.
Accusing MJ's of doing works for salvation.
Criticizing those who follow and keep Torah
Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestryWe are all, believer and non believer created in the image of G-d, please treat each other as such.

2.3 Debating and Teaching in MJ

Debating is defined by definition as a discussion involving a proposed solution to an issue. MJ Believers beliefs are not up for debate by anyone that is not an MJ Believer. You may ask questions to why we believe a certain way but may not challenge us on our beliefs.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Jim47]

I'm curious - Do the CF forum rules allow someone to harass another (or in this case an entire subforum) based on their race?



No, they do not, but posts here are a little hard to inerpret from this side of the fence, and I think by the shear number of reports even your own people here are having trouble as well. ;)


I won't be here long I don't think. Thats up to Tishri1, just here to help out for a while. :)

[simchat_torah]

Jim,

To be frank, quoting "Of the Jews and Their Lies" (a book which was quoted in Mein Kampf, and used as justification for the Holocaust) is disheartening to say the least. The CF member in question has continued to come here to a Jewish flavored section of the forum and not only quote from, but verbally support said book. He has even made comments suggesting that the Holocaust wasn't too bad of an idea, and possibly should happen again.

Might I point you to our FSR's?
Messianic Judaism Forum Additions

2.1 Examples of Flaming in the MJF would include:

Making Anti-Jewish or white supremacist remarks

Making Anti-Zionist or Anti-Israel remarks ( this would include Holocaust denial)

Calling any member of the MJF a Judaizer or Pharisee

Slandering members because of their Torah observance.

Accusing MJ's of doing works for salvation.

Criticizing those who follow and keep Torah

Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestry

Moreover, he has specifically done the following in numerous posts:
Slandering members because of their Torah observance.


No one here wants to ban anyone specific. We want our rules upheld. Nothing more.

Thank you,
Yafet

[ChavaK]

Messianic Judaism Forum Additions

2.1 Examples of Flaming in the MJF would include:

.

Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestry
This one bothers me....I think it only appropriate if
someone is claiming that they are Jewish, that
they actually are.

[ChavaK]

Messianic Judaism Forum Additions

Posting Guidelines
2. Teachings of the NT may only be argued by MJ's and NTMJ's

What is the reasoning behind this?


For those who do not practice Messianic Judaism in any way, shape, or form and/or are against Messianic Judaism and/or their doctrine and or the Jewish people, you are welcome to post fellowship posts and/or ask questions only.

Looks like we're going back to the old
system where Jews are precluded from
taking part in discussions and "debates".



Accusing someone who says they are a Jew, of not having proper ancestry

I have trouble with this one- only Jews should be
able to state they are Jewish.



2.3 Debating and Teaching in MJ

Debating is defined by definition as a discussion involving a proposed solution to an issue. MJ Believers beliefs are not up for debate by anyone that is not an MJ Believer. You may ask questions to why we believe a certain way but may not challenge us on our beliefs.


See above- Jews are being limited again as
to what they can post...so much for the
"new and open" CF.....

[Jim47]

Jim,

To be frank, quoting "Of the Jews and Their Lies" (a book which was quoted in Mein Kampf, and used as justification for the Holocaust) is disheartening to say the least. The CF member in question has continued to come here to a Jewish flavored section of the forum and not only quote from, but verbally support said book. He has even made comments suggesting that the Holocaust wasn't too bad of an idea, and possibly should happen again.

Might I point you to our FSR's?


Moreover, he has specifically done the following in numerous posts:
Slandering members because of their Torah observance.


No one here wants to ban anyone specific. We want our rules upheld. Nothing more.

Thank you,
Yafet



In order to answer your question I need a screen name of the user or a link to the report you are reffering to. I mod 6-7 forums so I can't even remember all the reports I work on.

[HadassahSukkot]

Jim, you have a PM

[HadassahSukkot]

Perhaps we can all help the moderators further by quoting the rule (FSR and CF) or rules broken by particular posts when we make reports, and take it to the reports in particular of each post within a thread that is breaking a rule rather than creating multiple reports on the same threads?

Just a thought and question to throw out there..

[Wags]

[/list]This one bothers me....I think it only appropriate if
someone is claiming that they are Jewish, that
they actually are.

How would you propose to make sure that anyone who says they are Jewish "actually" are?

And by what standard should they be considered Jewish under? Orthodox, Reform, law of return etc.....

Thats the problem with the internet, anyone can type anything and there really isn't anyay of knowing if they are in fact telling the truth.

[Ivy]

Jim,

To be frank, quoting "Of the Jews and Their Lies" (a book which was quoted in Mein Kampf, and used as justification for the Holocaust) is disheartening to say the least.

Might I point you to our FSR's?




What that particular poster did was say he agreed with point 7, and I think he needs to go agree with it somewhere other than here!

It's not appropriate on MJ Forum; it's a blatant anti-Jewish comment.

[Ivy]

you can limit what they say but you can not exclude them


In your OP, you yourself state that, according to CF rules, MJ Forum can limit what visitors say.

And I believe MJ forum wants to limit anti-Jewish remarks.

[talmidim]

What is the reasoning behind this?

Looks like we're going back to the old
system where Jews are precluded from
taking part in discussions and "debates".

I have trouble with this one- only Jews should be
able to state they are Jewish.

See above- Jews are being limited again as
to what they can post...so much for the
"new and open" CF.....You are correct only in the terminology. Had any other name been chosen for this movement (and I wish it had) this would be a moot point. Had this been termed the Pre-diaspora Proto-Christians or some other such nonsense, this wouldn't be a problem. Its like the man said: the Judaism referenced here is religious, not racial.

The basic beliefs and doctrines of this movement are as far from Roman Catholicism as they are from Rabbinical Judaism and therefore deserve a safe haven. It is not a matter of excluding the Jews from teaching and debating. It is a matter of excluding from debating or teaching,
1) those that do not believe in Yeshua as Messiah, and
2) excluding those that would preach the doctrines of Balaam (casting of stumblingblocks) or the Nicolaitans (elevate the authority of men over those that accept only the Word and the Spirit as His authority), and
3) those that support false prophets, and
4) those that do not support Israel.

The Messianic movement needs a safe haven where the basic core beliefs of the majority are not challenged every time someone wishes to take a discussion to the next level. That has been the problem here all along. There should be other forums for that kind of open debate. And those that wish to participate should go there to argue.

Enough with the arguing already. Sit down, shut up and eat your dogma (yech!) before it gets cold.

[ContraMundum]

So, we've got an anti-semite posting here and a mod backing him up and closing reports without allowing any other staff input? Pathetic. This forum can rot in Hell for all I care.

Brother....try to give us more time.

It's very hard for us mods to communicate with each other right now. We're doing our best. I humbly ask you for time.

I was just as offended as you were.

[ChavaK]

How would you propose to make sure that anyone who says they are Jewish "actually" are?

And by what standard should they be considered Jewish under? Orthodox, Reform, law of return etc.....

Thats the problem with the internet, anyone can type anything and there really isn't anyay of knowing if they are in fact telling the truth.

I of course support the halachic standard- Jewish
mother or conversion to Judaism. The public
as a whole accepts the Jewish definition of who is
a Jew so I think it appropriate that Jewish parameters
be used to define "who is a Jew".
Agreed, anyone can claim anything and it cannot
be verified. However, I would hope posters here
would be of a higher moral character than those
posters of the general internet...

[ChavaK]

Had this been termed the Pre-diaspora Proto-Christians or some other such nonsense, this wouldn't be a problem.

Nice idea, but too long winded!:)
But I do agree a name other
than MJ would have worked to
the benefit of everyonte.



Enough with the arguing already. Sit down, shut up and eat your dogma (yech!) before it gets cold.


And a good morning to you today, too!:)

[Wags]

I of course support the halachic standard- Jewish
mother or conversion to Judaism. The public
as a whole accepts the Jewish definition of who is
a Jew so I think it appropriate that Jewish parameters
be used to define "who is a Jew".
Agreed, anyone can claim anything and it cannot
be verified. However, I would hope posters here
would be of a higher moral character than those
posters of the general internet...

But of course the law of return and reform takes a bunch broader view. And while I would hope that no one would make false claims about their relgious beliefs or their ethnicity it does happen. On the other hand, I think it is incredibly rude to question someones ethnicity.

(Plus you and I both know that some would say that anyone that chooses to believe that Yeshua is the messiah is no longer Jewish. This rule also protects us from those sorts of statements.)

[muffler dragon]

(Plus you and I both know that some would say that anyone that chooses to believe that Yeshua is the messiah is no longer Jewish. This rule also protects us from those sorts of statements.)

Actually, this isn't the case. A Jew is always a Jew. It's whether they are observant or apostate that starts to come into play.

[talmidim]

Nice idea, but too long winded!:)
But I do agree a name other
than MJ would have worked to
the benefit of everyonte.
Enough with the arguing already. Sit down, shut up and eat your dogma (yech!) before it gets cold.
And a good morning to you today, too!:)I HOPE you saw the above as a pathetic attempt at humor...:blush: It's what my Mother used to say.:D

[simchat_torah]

In order to answer your question I need a screen name of the user or a link to the report you are reffering to. I mod 6-7 forums so I can't even remember all the reports I work on.that's funny, because if I'm not mistaken... this is why you created this very thread, no?

Not to sound demeaning, but isn't that why you created this very thread?

[simchat_torah]

The basic beliefs and doctrines of this movement are as far from Roman Catholicism as they are from Rabbinical Judaism In your opinion and your observance, this may be true. However, there are some that are quite halachically observant. Then there are others who hold to Sunday as the Sabbath. MJ is as colorful as the rainbow and to attempt to define it with only the color you wear would be too limiting.

[Sephania]

Please don't all come down on Jim, he is trying his best and the situation has been taken care of. Instead of continuing to rant, perhaps checking out the report threads would help ease the concern.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5807636-messianic-judaism-mezzamorta-07-30-2007.html

[Jim47]

Perhaps we can all help the moderators further by quoting the rule (FSR and CF) or rules broken by particular posts when we make reports, and take it to the reports in particular of each post within a thread that is breaking a rule rather than creating multiple reports on the same threads?

Just a thought and question to throw out there..


With shear number of reports rolling in and the fact that I mod 5 forums :doh: that would be a big help. Also a little translation to some of your Jewish words would help. I spent over a 1/2 hour last night trying to figure out what was wrong with a post because I didn't know what the word meant :)

It will all work out, just needs more time.

[Jim47]

that's funny, because if I'm not mistaken... this is why you created this very thread, no?

Not to sound demeaning, but isn't that why you created this very thread?



Maybe I don't understand your question? I started the thread to make you all familiar with CF rules, of course its taken a different turn now :)

Thanks Zayit, yes, checking the reports would be helpful for all of you to understand what is going on and how difficult it is to get anything done anymore. To be quite frank, there are just to many rules and they are too cumbersome. :)

[Bananna]

Sounds like we might need a bigger Wiki too...

Sorry about the hebrewisms...

Bananna

[HadassahSukkot]

With shear number of reports rolling in and the fact that I mod 5 forums :doh: that would be a big help. Also a little translation to some of your Jewish words would help. I spent over a 1/2 hour last night trying to figure out what was wrong with a post because I didn't know what the word meant :)

It will all work out, just needs more time.

Maybe I don't understand your question? I started the thread to make you all familiar with CF rules, of course its taken a different turn now :)

Thanks Zayit, yes, checking the reports would be helpful for all of you to understand what is going on and how difficult it is to get anything done anymore. To be quite frank, there are just to many rules and they are too cumbersome. :)


Ok, I will remember that!

[ChavaK]

But of course the law of return and reform takes a bunch broader view.

Although being eligible to make aliyah under the
law of return, and being a Jew are two different
things.

On the other hand, I think it is incredibly rude to question someones ethnicity.

I don't think it is if someone is rude enough
to call themselves something they are not:)

Plus you and I both know that some would say that anyone that chooses to believe that Yeshua is the messiah is no longer Jewish.

No Jew who knows anything about halachah is
going to make that statement....
:wave:

[ChavaK]

I HOPE you saw the above as a pathetic attempt at humor

I guess I did miss the "pathetic attempt at humor" :) -
my misunderstanding.
That's the problem with posting, unless you plaster
:) or :D all over the post it's often difficult to
tell if something is meant in a humerous vein or not..
and not even you can't always tell!

:wave:

[Ivy]

I of course support the halachic standard- Jewish
mother or conversion to Judaism. The public
as a whole accepts the Jewish definition of who is
a Jew so I think it appropriate that Jewish parameters
be used to define "who is a Jew".


I agree, and I don't think there's anything "rude" in insisting that if people are going to describe themselves as Jewish, that they should meet these parameters.

Truth in labeling. :)

[Henaynei]

I agree, and I don't think there's anything "rude" in insisting that if people are going to describe themselves as Jewish, that they should meet these parameters.

Truth in labeling. :)but the question is by what perimeters one is to judge "who is a Jew", a question that has troubled not just the MJ movement but also the Jewish community for decades - AND once those parameters are set are the mods then expected to add the Shlomo-like task of discerning via the Internet who actually IS Jewish or not to their obviously already difficult and time consuming list of tasks?

It can't be done. And the effects of members trying to decide what even the combined rabbis of Judaism have not been able to do has cause many an angry and flammable exchange in this forum.

I'd prefer to leave it to G-d to judge that which there is no way for us to rightly determine over the internet ... I know sommeone who was born goy who converted via orthodox and then became Messianic, I know someone who converted to Judaism, reform, when she married and then "left the faith" and returned to her previous state of religious activity after the divorce --- there are those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say both were aphikoros and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say neither are Jewish and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say both are forever Jewish and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say this one is Jewish and the other is not ..... and this we want to lay upon our moderators?? Heaven forbid!

b'Shalom
Henaynei

P.S. be it here known that I abhor those who claim the title of being Jewish who are not, to the extreme. But I don't believe an internet forum is the place to publically "sift the wheat" on this issue. Certainly anyone is able to hold what ever conversation they want via PM.

[Wags]

Quote:
Plus you and I both know that some would say that anyone that chooses to believe that Yeshua is the messiah is no longer Jewish.
No Jew who knows anything about halachah is
going to make that statement....
:wave:


Jews for Judaism makes that statement all the time.

[Wags]

but the question is by what perimeters one is to judge "who is a Jew", a question that has troubled not just the MJ movement but also the Jewish community for decades - AND once those parameters are set are the mods then expected to add the Shlomo-like task of discerning via the Internet who actually IS Jewish or not to their obviously already difficult and time consuming list of tasks?

It can't be done. And the effects of members trying to decide what even the combined rabbis of Judaism have not been able to do has cause many an angry and flammable exchange in this forum.

I'd prefer to leave it to G-d to judge that which there is no way for us to rightly determine over the internet ... I know sommeone who was born goy who converted via orthodox and then became Messianic, I know someone who converted to Judaism, reform, when she married and then "left the faith" and returned to her previous state of religious activity after the divorce --- there are those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say both were aphikoros and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say neither are Jewish and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say both are forever Jewish and those in the non-MJ Jewish community who would say this one is Jewish and the other is not ..... and this we want to lay upon our moderators?? Heaven forbid!

b'Shalom
Henaynei

P.S. be it here known that I abhor those who claim the title of being Jewish who are not, to the extreme. But I don't believe an internet forum is the place to publically "sift the wheat" on this issue. Certainly anyone is able to hold what ever conversation they want via PM.

I think you said it all much better than I did. :thumbsup:

[muffler dragon]

Jews for Judaism makes that statement all the time.

Please feel free to provide substantiation. I attended J4Judaism and what is now kosherjudaism rather frequently, and the statement that I see repeatedly deals exactly with what I stated above: a Jew is a person born to a Jewish mother. This never changes. Yet, a Jew can be deemed observant or apostate (or somewhere in between) by what they believe.

There are many Jews on kosherjudaism who have NOT always been observant. Some have been atheists, agnostics, Messianics, Christians and so forth. Therefore, they are in the exact shoes of what you discuss above and then some.

[talmidim]

In your opinion and your observance, this may be true. However, there are some that are quite halachically observant. Then there are others who hold to Sunday as the Sabbath. MJ is as colorful as the rainbow and to attempt to define it with only the color you wear would be too limiting.I completely agree with your assessment but I do not agree with your solution or lack thereof. The vast majority of Messianics hold scripture supreme over tradition. They also hold that Torah observance should be an individual choice. The rub starts with those you term as "halachically observant" who are a minority among the Messianic movement. These are not my suppositions. Go and read the position paper of every major Messianic organization. Look at their membership numbers. My case is made there and in the nature of the conflicts that have gone on here. It is time the "halachically observant" have their own forum, separate and apart from this one. Then the rules would be easy to formulate and enforce. Then the Mods wouldn't burn out from all the disputes and conflict. Then the casual reader would not be put off at all the conflict and actually learn something about these two dogmatically divergent groups of Messianic believers.

[ContraMundum]

Quote:
Plus you and I both know that some would say that anyone that chooses to believe that Yeshua is the messiah is no longer Jewish.
No Jew who knows anything about halachah is
going to make that statement....
:wave:


Jews for Judaism makes that statement all the time.

Jews For Judaism make the statement that such a person is an apostate, but still a Jew because of his obligation to repent. They believe that a person can temporarily lose their Jewishness.

From their Handbook:

"So-called "Hebrew Christians" argue that a person who is born Jewish can never lose his birthright or heritage. However, the Bible teaches that your beliefs do influence your Jewish status and that a person who was born a Jew can at some point temporarily cease to be called a Jew."

"A Jew who follows another religion is Jewish only to the point that he retains a spiritual obligation to repent and to return to Judaism. However, as long as his beliefs are idolatrous and foreign to Judaism, he cannot call himself a Jew."

[muffler dragon]

Jews For Judaism make the statement that such a person is an apostate, but still a Jew because of his obligation to repent. They believe that a person can temporarily lose their Jewishness.

From their Handbook:

"So-called "Hebrew Christians" argue that a person who is born Jewish can never lose his birthright or heritage. However, the Bible teaches that your beliefs do influence your Jewish status and that a person who was born a Jew can at some point temporarily cease to be called a Jew."

"A Jew who follows another religion is Jewish only to the point that he retains a spiritual obligation to repent and to return to Judaism. However, as long as his beliefs are idolatrous and foreign to Judaism, he cannot call himself a Jew."

Feel free to respond to me in PM or not at all, but I wanted to ask: as one born a Jew, how does the above make you feel?

[Ivy]

but the question is by what perimeters one is to judge "who is a Jew", a question that has troubled not just the MJ movement but also the Jewish community for decades - AND once those parameters are set are the mods then expected to add the Shlomo-like task of discerning via the Internet who actually IS Jewish or not to their obviously already difficult and time consuming list of tasks?



I agree, the mods can't verify someone's statement of identity......any more than they can verify their faith icon or marital status.

But I still think that if someone is going to say they are Jewish, they need to meet at least some of the criteria that's set by the Jewish community....not something in their wishful imagination.

Of course, saying they meet that criteria would be the honor system, too.....just like the faith icons are.

[ContraMundum]

Feel free to respond to me in PM or not at all, but I wanted to ask: as one born a Jew, how does the above make you feel?

Guilty. Very guilty.

[muffler dragon]

Guilty. Very guilty.

Do you disagree with the substance of the statement or the presentation of it?

[ContraMundum]

Do you disagree with the substance of the statement or the presentation of it?


I'm not really sure anymore.

[Henaynei]

I completely agree with your assessment but I do not agree with your solution or lack thereof. The vast majority of Messianics hold scripture supreme over tradition. They also hold that Torah observance should be an individual choice. The rub starts with those you term as "halachically observant" who are a minority among the Messianic movement. These are not my suppositions. Go and read the position paper of every major Messianic organization. Look at their membership numbers. My case is made there and in the nature of the conflicts that have gone on here. It is time the "halachically observant" have their own forum, separate and apart from this one. Then the rules would be easy to formulate and enforce. Then the Mods wouldn't burn out from all the disputes and conflict. Then the casual reader would not be put off at all the conflict and actually learn something about these two dogmatically divergent groups of Messianic believers.

great - first I'm ostracized because I don't believe G-d comes in three parts --- then eventually let back in, when they decide to remove all definitions and distinctives and let every riff and raff post anywhere they want [plz! I'm NOT talking about the non-MJ Jewish and Noachide posters - you *know* who the riff and raff are] --- then I'm told that I need to go away and have my own forum because I choose to endeavor to be as "halakhically observant" as I possibly can be. AND those like me are blamed "putting off" the casual reader, for all the conflict on MJF, all the disputes AND "Mod burnout" out! ....

Ooooooo...... I just feel all warm and fuzzy and loved .... I'm just totally underwhelmed .....:sigh:

b'Shalom
Henaynei
the wandering goy

[ContraMundum]

great - first I'm ostracized because I don't believe G-d comes in three parts --- then eventually let back in, when they decide to remove all definitions and distinctives and let every riff and raff post anywhere they want [plz! I'm NOT talking about the non-MJ Jewish and Noachide posters - you *know* who the riff and raff are] --- then I'm told that I need to go away and have my own forum because I choose to endeavor to be as "halakhically observant" as I possibly can be. AND those like me are blamed "putting off" the casual reader, for all the conflict on MJF, all the disputes AND "Mod burnout" out! ....

Ooooooo...... I just feel all warm and fuzzy and loved .... I'm just totally underwhelmed .....:sigh:

b'Shalom
Henaynei
the wandering goy

I actually don't think that's what he meant.

"Halachically observant" is a relative term, and as far as I know everyone on this forum without exception does the best they can with that acording to their conscience.

Perhaps he is referring to the fact that people have lately been judging each other based on that- a shameful action in itself, according to the NT.

I don't know, but I do think he didn't mean to insult.

[Henaynei]

I actually don't think that's what he meant.CM I appreciate your attempt at peacemaking and softening the impact of the post.... but"Halachically observant" is a relative term, and as far as I know everyone on this forum without exception does the best they can with that according to their conscience.CM that really doesn't make sense in the context in which he used "halakhically observant", otherwise he would have been saying "we all need to withdraw and have a separate forum" which is clearly what was NOT being said.Perhaps he is referring to the fact that people have lately been judging each other based on that- a shameful action in itself, according to the NT.
I don't know, but I do think he didn't mean to insult.If that is what one truly means then they are honor and humility bound to speak so of themselves instead of "the other."


i.e.

It is time the "scripture supreme" withdraw and have our own forum, separate and apart from this one. Then the rules would be easy to formulate and enforce. Then the Mods wouldn't burn out from all the disputes and conflict we help to foment. Then the casual reader would not be put off at all the conflict we help stir up and actually learn something about these two dogmatically divergent groups of Messianic believers.

since he chose to point at "the others" in an accusatory manner rather than accept the responsibility as a representative of the "scripture supreme" [his term] group and thereby cast "the others" in the role of the offender rather than own the offense himself, it seems clear what was the intent and attitude at the time of the posting.

If he meant differently I'd sorely like to hear him stand up and without demurring or justifying clearly so state. He has been posting on this forum quite long enough to fully understand the nuances of posting.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[HadassahSukkot]

Contramundum & others,

I assure you, this was also not only Henaynei's understanding of the post by Talmidim.

I can hardly find the more Orthodox of our group slandering or demeaning those who are not as favorable to Rabbinic Tradition, or the cultural traditions. What I do see is that there is a hope and always an attempt to meet at the middle and clear up misconceptions.

In fact, on the opposite side, more hostility... and rather than drawing into the foray the disagreement begins to be reported... and we see the same "serial reporting" against certain individuals by certain individuals.

Flaming shouldn't always need defense in a thread, but by support by the forum rules and FSRs as well, have mod backup (so it doesn't deleniate into other members biting each other's heads off) to say 'hey, remember x scripture where it says...? Don't d X/Y/Z or you will get a warning, this is not acceptable behaviour in accordance with our CF Rules/FSRs"

Instead, many of us (Speaking in general here) have been relegated to the background, and unless it is something we are truly heated up about, we do not get discussion rights.... (Speaking in general here)
Because if we do speak up... it is http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/kickedout.gif at best and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/mob.gif at worst.

The MJF members are not the only ones who are noticing it either, which is insanly rediculous considering how much some of CF really want us to just http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/dissappear.gifsend us packing.

Shoot, half the time I just want to stay like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/underchair.gif

There is a sense of hopelessness when some people try to post and they get attacked right off the bat.


Many of us want to help solve the problem, not exacerbate it...

I do not want to see anyone get the short end of the stick either.
If that means we get a debate forum in addition to the Halachic forum (which was designed not really for debate but discussion ... big difference), and then we get an area outside of the fellowship forum (main MJF) for other disccusion for each branch of MJF, that is OK.

There are how many different groups of MJ in the USA/Canada/Europe? I know of 7 or 8 groups alone, some who are considered more mainstream than others, all at different observance levels. There is infighting even amongst them, because if you join one or the other group... you have either turned heretic or have heck to pay for leaving x group in favor of y (even if it is because a synagogue is closer to where you live, rather than travelling miles and miles)

This is petty ya'll... we can step above this...

Either we all work together in the main forum and we tailor our discussions to the groups we want to participate in our threads (As previously suggested) so we can all stick together peaceably [this could work...]...
OR we can divide up a little and have the seperate rooms and with the debate room we can tailor our discussions to the groups we want participating...

I feel if we divide, one side will be slower than the other, but ok if that brings peace, so be it...
I feel if we don't divide and we agree to tailor, maybe this might also bring peace..

but on the other hand, if we keep up as we have... we will just have more and more of this to look forward to: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/fighting/0143.gif

Another issue is that we are coming across from all corners of the world, and English from England is different from that of Australia, Canada, Northern and Southern USA and that of Western USA.

We also have our own cultural understandings from where we live, and we are having to work around those too.

You would be amazed at how many of our misunderstandings come from that alone, before it comes to the debates and "I don't like you, go away's"

Some of us know that and are trying to work around it, some of us haven't quite figured that out.

Sometimes, pride does come into play, but the group being accused atm, I haven't really seen a lot of that.... and I don't like standing around hearing it without at least someone coming to the defense.

With all the changes here, it almost feels (and seems) like there has been a huge loss in leadership, which often sends sheep back into instinctual foray... the bigger butting the smaller, the larger trampling the food and water source, and the smaller groups getting left out.

We are above that as people.. and we are called to live to a higher standard.

I hope we all can agree to do that.. : /

[ContraMundum]

I just wish I knew what people were talking about.

I have no idea who the more "orthodox" posters are- because orthodoxy is a relative term. A lot of people consider themselves orthodox, but none of them agree with each other.

I have no idea who the "halachically observant" people are, because of the very same reasons.

So, when someone tells me that they feel mariginalised, silenced etc, and then they say its because they are "orthodox" or "halachically observant", it makes no sense, because when offended everyone thinks they are a) the victims and b) the most correct in doctrine and practice.

This is why I hesistate to side with the idea of a partisan separation. It's easy to sort out the "parties" on other forums, because generally they have a set authority of doctrinal agreement. This is not the case here. It's hard to sort it out.

[Henaynei]

So, when someone tells me that they feel marginalized, silenced etc, and then they say its because they are "orthodox" or "halachically observant", it makes no sense, because when offended everyone thinks they are a) the victims and b) the most correct in doctrine and practice.
Dear brother CM,

I have claimed neither of those titles. Additionally, I rarely play the victim. In this case I was pointing out a seemingly accusatory and hurtful post, to the poster. I did not hit the report button, and I ceartinly don't think I must correct the doctrine and practice of you or anyone else.

Yes, I have in the distant past vigorously defended MY doctrine and practice when they are attacked or misrepresented, and will do so again. But that is not the same as painting a whole swath of people as deceived, deceiving others, departing from the Truth of Scripture, or the cause of the strife on this forum because they hold to a doctrine differing from mine, as is often done in this forum of late.

I have been a part of the MJF for nearly 4 years and have had a hiatus from posting in this forum for nearly 2 years because of my doctrine on the trinity, until the [open] feature was implemented. Even when I was again able to post in here I tried very hard to stay out of doctrinal or debate threads as I was a guest. But I have watched the preponderance of strident bashing of and denigration of the practice of those who feel called to diligently seek a growing Torah observance by some who are essentially NT "Torah" only and do feel they must tell everyone else how wrong they are.

Long ago this meeting of the minds was a discussion in here, but over the last few years it has become a running fight complete with buzz wordes, push buttons and jerking knees.

You are quite correct. Not even among Orthodox non-MJs is one likely to find very many who would claim to have achieved full Torah observance or halakhically perfect practice. As Rav Sha'ul said, "if we say we are without sin we decieve ourselves." But the category of those who are seeking that goal are not hard to populate with names from this forum, Jewish or Gentile, Messianic or not.

Tell you what, I propose to give platform to those, Messianics and non-Messianics, who would identify themselves as seeking and growing toward more perfect Torah observance. That way no one has to take on the task of labeling others. Shall we give it a try?

I'll be first:
I'm not Jewish, my husband is. We are both believers and followers of the Jewish Messiah Yeshua, have been an active part of the Messianic Community for 20 years and continually seek to more perfectly observe Torah and honor the halakah of his forebears as our "holy and acceptable sacrifice" of obedience to our G-d, a sacrifice born of love, devotion and a desire to please Him in all we do. But our righteousness and security rest in G-d alone through trust.

[visionary]

You ROCK Henny, and may other respect that.

[HadassahSukkot]

You ROCK Henny, and may other respect that.
ditto!

[Henaynei]

Contramundum & others,

I assure you, this was also not only Henaynei's understanding of the post by Talmidim.

I can hardly find the more Orthodox of our group slandering or demeaning those who are not as favorable to Rabbinic Tradition, or the cultural traditions. What I do see is that there is a hope and always an attempt to meet at the middle and clear up misconceptions.

In fact, on the opposite side, more hostility... and rather than drawing into the foray the disagreement begins to be reported... and we see the same "serial reporting" against certain individuals by certain individuals.

Flaming shouldn't always need defense in a thread, but by support by the forum rules and FSRs as well, have mod backup (so it doesn't deleniate into other members biting each other's heads off) to say 'hey, remember x scripture where it says...? Don't d X/Y/Z or you will get a warning, this is not acceptable behaviour in accordance with our CF Rules/FSRs"

Instead, many of us (Speaking in general here) have been relegated to the background, and unless it is something we are truly heated up about, we do not get discussion rights.... (Speaking in general here)
Because if we do speak up... it is http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/kickedout.gif at best and http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/mob.gif at worst.

The MJF members are not the only ones who are noticing it either, which is insanly rediculous considering how much some of CF really want us to just http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/dissappear.gifsend us packing.

Shoot, half the time I just want to stay like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/underchair.gif

There is a sense of hopelessness when some people try to post and they get attacked right off the bat.


Many of us want to help solve the problem, not exacerbate it...

I do not want to see anyone get the short end of the stick either.
If that means we get a debate forum in addition to the Halachic forum (which was designed not really for debate but discussion ... big difference), and then we get an area outside of the fellowship forum (main MJF) for other disccusion for each branch of MJF, that is OK.

There are how many different groups of MJ in the USA/Canada/Europe? I know of 7 or 8 groups alone, some who are considered more mainstream than others, all at different observance levels. There is infighting even amongst them, because if you join one or the other group... you have either turned heretic or have heck to pay for leaving x group in favor of y (even if it is because a synagogue is closer to where you live, rather than travelling miles and miles)

This is petty ya'll... we can step above this...

Either we all work together in the main forum and we tailor our discussions to the groups we want to participate in our threads (As previously suggested) so we can all stick together peaceably [this could work...]...
OR we can divide up a little and have the seperate rooms and with the debate room we can tailor our discussions to the groups we want participating...

I feel if we divide, one side will be slower than the other, but ok if that brings peace, so be it...
I feel if we don't divide and we agree to tailor, maybe this might also bring peace..

but on the other hand, if we keep up as we have... we will just have more and more of this to look forward to: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/fighting/0143.gif

Another issue is that we are coming across from all corners of the world, and English from England is different from that of Australia, Canada, Northern and Southern USA and that of Western USA.

We also have our own cultural understandings from where we live, and we are having to work around those too.

You would be amazed at how many of our misunderstandings come from that alone, before it comes to the debates and "I don't like you, go away's"

Some of us know that and are trying to work around it, some of us haven't quite figured that out.

Sometimes, pride does come into play, but the group being accused atm, I haven't really seen a lot of that.... and I don't like standing around hearing it without at least someone coming to the defense.

With all the changes here, it almost feels (and seems) like there has been a huge loss in leadership, which often sends sheep back into instinctual foray... the bigger butting the smaller, the larger trampling the food and water source, and the smaller groups getting left out.

We are above that as people.. and we are called to live to a higher standard.

I hope we all can agree to do that.. : /well said antsy!:thumbsup:

[ContraMundum]

Dear brother CM,

I have claimed neither of those titles. Additionally, I rarely play the victim.

True.

Yes, I have in the distant past vigorously defended MY doctrine and practice when they are attacked or misrepresented, and will do so again. But that is not the same as painting a whole swath of people as deceived, deceiving others, departing from the Truth of Scripture, or the cause of the strife on this forum because they hold to a doctrine differing from mine, as is often done in this forum of late.

True- and no one group is alone the victim of such attacks- they all receive them.

Long ago this meeting of the minds was a discussion in here, but over the last few years it has become a running fight complete with buzz wordes, push buttons and jerking knees.

Interesting. I've noticed the same, even outside of this forum.

You are quite correct. Not even among Orthodox non-MJs is one likely to find very many who would claim to have achieved full Torah observance or halakhically perfect practice. As Rav Sha'ul said, "if we say we are without sin we decieve ourselves." But the category of those who are seeking that goal are not hard to populate with names from this forum, Jewish or Gentile, Messianic or not.

I think that was John. 1 Jn 1:8, but Paul says similar. You are quite correct.

Tell you what, I propose to give platform to those, Messianics and non-Messianics, who would identify themselves as seeking and growing toward more perfect Torah observance. That way no one has to take on the task of labeling others. Shall we give it a try?

OK, if you wish...go for it.

I'll be first:
I'm not Jewish, my husband is. We are both believers and followers of the Jewish Messiah Yeshua, have been an active part of the Messianic Community for 20 years and continually seek to more perfectly observe Torah and honor the halakah of his forebears as our "holy and acceptable sacrifice" of obedience to our G-d, a sacrifice born of love, devotion and a desire to please Him in all we do. But our righteousness and security rest in G-d alone through trust.

Nice words. Let's see if others chip in.

[ContraMundum]

In fact, on the opposite side, more hostility... and rather than drawing into the foray the disagreement begins to be reported... and we see the same "serial reporting" against certain individuals by certain individuals.

Exactly.

Flaming shouldn't always need defense in a thread, but by support by the forum rules and FSRs as well, have mod backup (so it doesn't deleniate into other members biting each other's heads off) to say 'hey, remember x scripture where it says...? Don't d X/Y/Z or you will get a warning, this is not acceptable behaviour in accordance with our CF Rules/FSRs"

Yes, that's the way it's supposed to work. You're right.

Instead, many of us (Speaking in general here) have been relegated to the background, and unless it is something we are truly heated up about, we do not get discussion rights.... (Speaking in general here)

Yes!

The MJF members are not the only ones who are noticing it either, which is insanly rediculous considering how much some of CF really want us to just http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/dissappear.gifsend us packing.


Yes!
Shoot, half the time I just want to stay like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/antsinmypants/Emoticons/underchair.gif

There is a sense of hopelessness when some people try to post and they get attacked right off the bat.

Yep. Me too. Heck, the last time I got dragged (literally) into a "discussion" I was called hideous things by the believers.

Many of us want to help solve the problem, not exacerbate it...

I do not want to see anyone get the short end of the stick either.
If that means we get a debate forum in addition to the Halachic forum (which was designed not really for debate but discussion ... big difference), and then we get an area outside of the fellowship forum (main MJF) for other disccusion for each branch of MJF, that is OK.

I agree. It couldn't hurt, and may it just help.

There are how many different groups of MJ in the USA/Canada/Europe? I know of 7 or 8 groups alone, some who are considered more mainstream than others, all at different observance levels. There is infighting even amongst them, because if you join one or the other group... you have either turned heretic or have heck to pay for leaving x group in favor of y (even if it is because a synagogue is closer to where you live, rather than travelling miles and miles)

Amen.

This is petty ya'll... we can step above this...

I doubt it will be easily resolved. Religion is one of the best dividers in society.

Either we all work together in the main forum and we tailor our discussions to the groups we want to participate in our threads (As previously suggested) so we can all stick together peaceably [this could work...]...
OR we can divide up a little and have the seperate rooms and with the debate room we can tailor our discussions to the groups we want participating...

Which one would actually work better? I'm convinced neither will deliver the results we all want.

I feel if we divide, one side will be slower than the other, but ok if that brings peace, so be it...
I feel if we don't divide and we agree to tailor, maybe this might also bring peace..

This is the pragmatic, and I would suggest, most valid attempt to broker a peace deal. :)

With all the changes here, it almost feels (and seems) like there has been a huge loss in leadership, which often sends sheep back into instinctual foray... the bigger butting the smaller, the larger trampling the food and water source, and the smaller groups getting left out.

Good, wise observations.

[Ivy]

Either we all work together in the main forum and we tailor our discussions to the groups we want to participate in our threads (As previously suggested) so we can all stick together peaceably [this could work...]...
OR we can divide up a little and have the seperate rooms and with the debate room we can tailor our discussions to the groups we want participating...



I think if we divide up into little rooms, the little rooms will be pokey, boring places......but then there would be the Open Discussion area to relieve the boredom. :sorry:

"Open Discussion Area: Please Use the Report Button Sparingly" :D :D Enter at your own risk....and try to play nice. :-)

[HadassahSukkot]

I think if we divide up into little rooms, the little rooms will be pokey, boring places......but then there would be the Open Discussion area to relieve the boredom. :sorry:

"Open Discussion Area: Please Use the Report Button Sparingly" :D :D Enter at your own risk....and try to play nice. :-)
LOL! works 4 me

[Henaynei]

I think what this will degenerate into is that which has hamstrung CF - the accommodation of every self defined group who in their incessant squeaking demands their "fair" share of the forum, being their own special separate forum with in MJF, until you have a sub-forum for every man-jack and heresy because we will be challenged should we want to state that this or that is a heresy because how dare we *judge* another's walk.... etc.... - for my money there is no quicker way to kill MJF

[Bananna]

One does not need to use the term heresy.

One can simply share that they feel a practise or belief runs contrary to your understanding of a scripture.

However some are in the practise of condemning others as lawless because of the feeling that Torah is not binding on them. People can be ignored if they refuse to have any kind of logical discource.

A clear problem can be addressed by consensus to add a clear posting rule or membership rule.

bananna