The Greatest Christian Fear?

[Protinus]

I have a friend who was posting in the "CF Vision" thread and she was obviously at the end of her ropes. She reacted to the vehement anti-non-Christian sentiments of the thread and nonchristians becoming moderators of late with a sarcastic:

"well maybe well should all just shoot them and bury them somewhere in a remote area".

What followed from a self professed Christian was chilling:

"I'd give you reps if I thought you were serious".

The same poster has said that all non-Christians are "spiritually dead" in another CF Support thread about applying moderators.

I believe these statements are repugnant. Yet I have caught myself saying bad things about my Christian brethren as well - mostly out of being dispossessed or defending others that I felt were downtrodden. The end result is the same.

I feel that the root of all problems Christians have has to do with a few things, but the main thing is actually fear of God's love, despite protestations of faith to the contrary. This has to do with what was started in the other thread, Faith and Certainty, that mostly we learn about God 's love as only conditional. This is evidenced in the Church's teachings that repentance and all manner of theologic inventory is necessary to achieve God's love.

This to the Human Paradox. Though we long for an intimate relationship with God and a full acceptance of who we are, sum total...we are unable to tolerate the acceptance of God's love.... or we wouldn't have the above posts that were cited. This inability is created by Pharisaical teachings AND that anyone, Christian or Non-Christian, is capable of running away from a true relationship with God.

I would say that some Christians are actually threatened by a relationship with God, hiding behind the Christian denomination and spewing our exclusive remarks and hateful sentiments about those that would not belong to their group. Because a relationship with God actually requires us to love ourselves. Christ commandment was to love our neighbor as ourselves!!! To be truly in a relationship with God, we must develop an honesty and integrity about ourselves of which few are capable, including myself, but which most fear.

I would submit that God's love challenges us to realize our potential for personal growth and recognizing the redeeming quality of all HUMANITY.

I would think before I wrote that anyone is "spiritually dead". I am reminded of what I would become if I were truly capable of putting God and Jesus Christ at the center of my life.

[Loki]

I feel that the root of all problems Christians have has to do with a few things, but the main thing is actually fear of God's love, despite protestations of faith to the contrary. This has to do with what was started in the other thread, Faith and Certainty, that mostly we learn about God 's as only conditional. This is evidenced in the Church's teachings that repentance and all manner of theologic inventory is necessary to achieve God's love.

This to the Human Paradox. Though we long for an intimate relationship with God and a full acceptance of who we are, sum total...we are unable to tolerate the acceptance of God's love.... or we wouldn't have the above posts that were cited. This inability is created by Pharisaical teachings that anyone, Christian or Non-Christian, is capable of running away from a true relationship with God.

I would say that some Christians are actually threatened by a relationship with God, hiding behind the Christian denomination and spewing our exclusive remarks and hateful sentiments about those that would not belong to their group. Because a relationship with God actually requires us to love ourselves. Christ commandment was to love our neighbor as ourselves!!! to be truly in a relationship with God, we must develop an honesty and integrity with ourselves of which few are capable, including myself, but which most fear.


Your post raises important issues, and you have many valid points, but the bolded part struck me especially, and I can't figure out quite why. It's as though I know it from somewhere, but can't quite figure out what or where or when.

[Protinus]

Your post raises important issues, and you have many valid points, but the bolded part struck me especially, and I can't figure out quite why. It's as though I know it from somewhere, but can't quite figure out what or where or when.


It is distilled form my many readings...I am just the sum of what I read. I will try to remember a direct reference.

[Loki]

God's love is a terrible thing, using terrible in a rather archaic or technical sense.

[constance]

it's very c.s. lewis-ish. :)

I have been learning that learning to love (and especially forgive) myself is one of the most important keys to me being a successful minister, wife, and mother. over-self-scrutinization tends to run in my family and I have always been very hard on myself.

JP thanks for this post - I think it is a wonderful example for us.

:)

[tashiseisei]

God's love is a terrible thing, using terrible in a rather archaic or technical sense.

I actually agree completely.

It is terrifying.

[Protinus]

it's very c.s. lewis-ish. :)

I have been learning that learning to love (and especially forgive) myself is one of the most important keys to me being a successful minister, wife, and mother. over-self-scrutinization tends to run in my family and I have always been very hard on myself.

JP thanks for this post - I think it is a wonderful example for us.

:)

Thanks Constance...I'm going to read about CL Lewis more.

What I'm also fearful of is a problem that CF is really not responsible for but allows for individuals to resist emotional or spiritually closeness...to lash out with hateful statements...something that would not happen a lot in real life.

All of us live in ways that are limited by selfish and hurtful actions or by other compromises we have made over the years. We lose our personal integrity- perhaps inhibiting the potential we have for making relationships- in real life and online. If we find ourselves pushing others away who might offer friendship then online remarks are more hurtful online imho.

[Spherical Time]

One person doesn't scare me. One person almost never scares me.

The fact that this person represents a group of people is what scares me.

[Loki]

ST, good to see you in this neck of the woods.

I, too, am afraid that that sort of opinion, not necessarily to the point of murder, but similarly insular and decrying beliefs may be prevalent enough on this site to take it over. Hopefully Erwin listens to a voice of reason in his head or otherwise, not the rambling of some internet idiots.

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Interesting couple of threads Protinus - it's something deep in the human psyche that causes us to fear the outsider. It, of course, goes well beyond the religious, and can be applied to almost anything - the need to qualify ourselves by climbing over others is, perhaps, the most penetrating vice that seeps into even the most well meaning people.

Your post reminded me of the words that Christ said after his resurrection: "Do not be afraid", but what are we, really, afraid of is the question.

In my view, it comes down to pride, the belief that it is primarily our view and our works that must enlighten others - without giving thought the grander scheme of God, and that only he knows the true ends - we can only partake of his grace.

"His will is our peace", a thought that gives me comfort - we can only conform to God's will for us, and in that we are perfect - we are not interested in success as it my be measured in the world. Of course, easier said that done, but there it is.

[Rebekka]

Interesting couple of threads Protinus - it's something deep in the human psyche that causes us to fear the outsider. It, of course, goes well beyond the religious, and can be applied to almost anything - the need to qualify ourselves by climbing over others is, perhaps, the most penetrating vice that seeps into even the most well meaning people.
Yes, I agree, the fear of people who are different is huge everywhere in society. Christians are afraid of non-christians and vice versa. I have a lot of atheist friends, and what they sometimes believe about christians (especially catholics) is amazing and horrible. They hate because they are afraid.

[Abiel]

My fear has always been that I have jumped onto the wrong Christian bandwagon- that the Christians who insist I am hell bound, or something of the sort might be right. I suppose that this type of fear might push a person to a place psychologically where they have to defend their own position not only vigourously, but to the exclusion of others. I don't know. I think there is something psychological going on- humans crave certainty. I certainly do. The lack of certainty in matters of faith is a great burden to me.

[Victrixa]

I have a friend who was posting in the "CF Vision" thread and she was obviously at the end of her ropes. She reacted to the vehement anti-non-Christian sentiments of the thread and nonchristians becoming moderators of late with a sarcastic:

"well maybe well should all just shoot them and bury them somewhere in a remote area".

What followed from a self professed Christian was chilling:

"I'd give you reps if I thought you were serious".

Wow.... :eek:

You know, in the dear OBOB forum, a member there once said that he'd kill for his faith... :eek: When I read that I was totally in shock and speechless... I mean, wow.... :help:

[Victrixa]

My fear has always been that I have jumped onto the wrong Christian bandwagon- that the Christians who insist I am hell bound, or something of the sort might be right. I suppose that this type of fear might push a person to a place psychologically where they have to defend their own position not only vigourously, but to the exclusion of others. I don't know. I think there is something psychological going on- humans crave certainty. I certainly do. The lack of certainty in matters of faith is a great burden to me.

I do understand where you are coming from...

I have many theological questions that trouble me. I certainly want to be in the Truth. The only thing I can do is stay close to Jesus. As for the rest, I don't know who's right or who's wrong... I fear doing the wrong thing too or being in the wrong place or believing the wrong things and end up in hell too... :help: All I want to do is follow Jesus, after all... :bow:

[Victrixa]

Actually I do feel like the poster who's at her wits' end sometimes ... When I feel tired and some people are getting on my nerves ... or other things... sometimes I do feel like killing a few! :help:

(It is the feeling I get and I scare myself sooo much when I feel that way! :eek: But I do ask God to protect me in every possible way, so He comes to my rescue... I'm just a sinner covered by His grace after all... :bow: )

[Miss Shelby]

I have a friend who was posting in the "CF Vision" thread and she was obviously at the end of her ropes. She reacted to the vehement anti-non-Christian sentiments of the thread and nonchristians becoming moderators of late with a sarcastic:

"well maybe well should all just shoot them and bury them somewhere in a remote area".

What followed from a self professed Christian was chilling:

"I'd give you reps if I thought you were serious".

The same poster has said that all non-Christians are "spiritually dead" in another CF Support thread about applying moderators.

I believe these statements are repugnant. Yet I have caught myself saying bad things about my Christian brethren as well - mostly out of being dispossessed or defending others that I felt were downtrodden. The end result is the same.

I feel that the root of all problems Christians have has to do with a few things, but the main thing is actually fear of God's love, despite protestations of faith to the contrary. This has to do with what was started in the other thread, Faith and Certainty, that mostly we learn about God 's love as only conditional. This is evidenced in the Church's teachings that repentance and all manner of theologic inventory is necessary to achieve God's love.

This to the Human Paradox. Though we long for an intimate relationship with God and a full acceptance of who we are, sum total...we are unable to tolerate the acceptance of God's love.... or we wouldn't have the above posts that were cited. This inability is created by Pharisaical teachings AND that anyone, Christian or Non-Christian, is capable of running away from a true relationship with God.

I would say that some Christians are actually threatened by a relationship with God, hiding behind the Christian denomination and spewing our exclusive remarks and hateful sentiments about those that would not belong to their group. Because a relationship with God actually requires us to love ourselves. Christ commandment was to love our neighbor as ourselves!!! To be truly in a relationship with God, we must develop an honesty and integrity about ourselves of which few are capable, including myself, but which most fear.

I would submit that God's love challenges us to realize our potential for personal growth and recognizing the redeeming quality of all HUMANITY.

I would think before I wrote that anyone is "spiritually dead". I am reminded of what I would become if I were truly capable of putting God and Jesus Christ at the center of my life.Why don't you pray for these people instead of scurrying off and gossiping about them? You obviously think you're better than they are.

Michelle

p.s. I just bought some new cyanide lipstick and an impaler. It was on sale.

[Protinus]

Why don't you pray for these people instead of scurrying off and gossiping about them? You obviously think you're better than they are.

Michelle

p.s. I just bought some new cyanide lipstick and an impaler. It was on sale.


This was a serious post and I included myself in a bid to make this situation better. I did not scurry off and gossip. You can add content or you can detract from content.

[Miss Shelby]

Bull ticky. You use these people as examples of pharisees, afraid / and or incapable of true love and of having a relationship with God. You say they find God threatening. You express no concern for them or their souls, but only focus on how happy you are that you're not like that.

[Protinus]

"I would think before I wrote that anyone is "spiritually dead". I am reminded of what I would become if I were truly capable of putting God and Jesus Christ at the center of my life."

This is describing myself in the same vein of the activity that I'm talking about.

[Miss Shelby]

uh huh. Well you have fun, whatever it is you're doing.

[boughtwithaprice]

Why don't you pray for these people instead of scurrying off and gossiping about them? You obviously think you're better than they are.

Michelle

p.s. I just bought some new cyanide lipstick and an impaler. It was on sale.
Michelle, this is not gossip, as no names are mentioned, but it is a serious review of behavior, of our own and other's behavior. Do you think it is right to call others spiritually dead and treat them as second class citizens, lower than worms? Christ was not gossiping about the pharisees when He told us not to do as they do; He evaluated their behavior and told us, Don't do that. Protinus has done the same thing, without that malice that you ascribe to him. How do you know that he does not grieve and pray for those that you speak of?

[Miss Shelby]

Michelle, this is not gossip, as no names are mentioned, but it is a serious review of behavior, of our own and other's behavior. Do you think it is right to call others spiritually dead and treat them as second class citizens, lower than worms? Christ was not gossiping about the pharisees when He told us not to do as they do; He evaluated their behavior and told us, Don't do that. Protinus has done the same thing, without that malice that you ascribe to him. How do you know that he does not grieve and pray for those that you speak of?
Of course I believe the behavior itself is dispicable. But he could have done the very same thing without pointing out that people on this board made those quotes. Wouldn't be hard to figure out who they are by what he said. And when following comments are not introspective, but rather fearful of what 'these types' of people are capable of -- the meaning drains out of it entirely.

[Cosmic Charlie]

Shel, have you got something personal going on with Pro I don't know about.

The anatagonism of your post was seriously off putting and the ps about the lipstick what just

werid.


I know, I know, I not one to talk, but, damn.

[Cosmic Charlie]

Shel, the truth is it own defense.

If these people actually said it is it gossip to call them on it ?

[Miss Shelby]

Shel, have you got something personal going on with Pro I don't know about.

The anatagonism of your post was seriously off putting and the ps about the lipstick what just

werid.


I know, I know, I not one to talk, but, damn.
He said on another board that I impale him, amongst other things.

[Miss Shelby]

Shel, the truth is it own defense.

If these people actually said it is it gossip to call them on it ?
It's not gossip if you say it straight to their face. It's gossip if you run off to somewhere else under the guise of goodwill to expose it.

The way I feel about it is, these people need help and prayer. They don't need others coming in, reading the comments, and commenting about how dangerous they are. And fueling the fear.

Like I said, his OP would have been fine, even GOOD, had he left the beginning out of it, where he identified people on this board as saying those things.

[Michie]

I agree that all the finger pointing at others flaws with sadness & self-righteous indignation is a very thin veil for gossip.

If you continue to gossip about what you see as injustices on a messageboard it is just vicious circle. Never ending.

You can discuss injustice but must links & c&p be used to do so? It only promotes the 'them versus us' attitude.

You can't wrap it up all in God & make it ok. All the while doing the very thing they decry but on a different platform.

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

An Eye for an Eye

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Proverbs 16:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=16&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.

Proverbs 18:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=18&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man's inmost parts.

Proverbs 26:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=26&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.

Proverbs 26:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=26&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man's inmost parts.

I think Miss Shelby has a valid point. There are better ways to go about these things.
I think people on both sides of the issue need to quite pontificating on the behavior of others & concentrate on their own actions.

I'm guilty of it too.

[Cosmic Charlie]

He said on another board that I impale him, amongst other things.
Well, that's suitably nasty.

[Cosmic Charlie]

It's not gossip if you say it straight to their face. It's gossip if you run off to somewhere else under the guise of goodwill to expose it.

The way I feel about it is, these people need help and prayer. They don't need others coming in, reading the comments, and commenting about how dangerous they are. And fueling the fear.

Like I said, his OP would have been fine, even GOOD, had he left the beginning out of it, where he identified people on this board as saying those things.
Now you have me conflicted.

[boughtwithaprice]

I agree that all the finger pointing at others flaws with sadness & self-righteous indignation is a very thin veil for gossip.

If you continue to gossip about what you see as injustices on a messageboard it is just vicious circle. Never ending.

You can discuss injustice but must links & c&p be used to do so? It only promotes the 'them versus us' attitude.

You can't wrap it up all in God & make it ok. All the while doing the very thing they decry but on a different platform.








Proverbs 16:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=16&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.

Proverbs 18:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=18&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man's inmost parts.

Proverbs 26:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=26&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.

Proverbs 26:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=26&verse=22&version=31&context=verse)
The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man's inmost parts.

I think Miss Shelby has a valid point. There are better ways to go about these things.
I think people on both sides of the issue need to quite pontificating on the behavior of others & concentrate on their own actions.

I'm guilty of it too.


I disagree with your assessment. This thread is not about gossip, but rather a self reflection on our own inadequacy. Did you read the OP again?

Protinus did not say look at all the bad christians, they are a mess, liberals are better. What he said was, Look at this bad behavior over here, I see the same tendencies in myself, and I believe that it is due to a fear of God's love. That is NOT gossip. The subsequent posters understood what Protinus meant and followed the OP, they did not gossip. The false accusation of gossip, IMO, was made later in the thread.

you can call this thread gossip, but I think that you are missing the point. It was completely appropriate for this thread to be posted.

[PaladinGirl]

My greatest fear as a Christian is the fear of going to Hell.

[Michie]

I disagree with your assessment. This thread is not about gossip, but rather a self reflection on our own inadequacy. Did you read the OP again?

Protinus did not say look at all the bad christians, they are a mess, liberals are better. What he said was, Look at this bad behavior over here, I see the same tendencies in myself, and I believe that it is due to a fear of God's love. That is NOT gossip. The subsequent posters understood what Protinus meant and followed the OP, they did not gossip. The false accusation of gossip, IMO, was made later in the thread.

you can call this thread gossip, but I think that you are missing the point. It was completely appropriate for this thread to be posted.
I don't agree. It could had been discussed but people from the board were used as examples. Nothing wrong with the subject but it could had been done in a more generic way. Nobody has to look far to see there are examples galore in threads here to discuss.

So again, I don't agree.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Because if reconciliation & discussion were truly sought, then fault finding by example would not be used.

I've been given link after link for examples & had things repeated from several different people, I refuse anymore. There are snide OBOB references, insults linked from other threads, references to past hurts, etc.

Nobody is innocent. Including myself.

But it needs to stop.

It's poison.

Discuss what you perceive as injustice or whatever but the examples from the board really need to be stopped. It does not do much to build bridges.

BTW- this is not about JP personally but the trend of going to your safe segregated area to discuss other comments elsewhere on the board.

[Voegelin]

p.s. I just bought some new cyanide lipstick and an impaler. It was on sale.

American made I hope. Can't rely on some of those imports. Sure you've read about the contaminated Chinese products recently.

[Catherineanne]

The lack of certainty in matters of faith is a great burden to me.

I can understand this, and I think you are right that intolerance of uncertainty feeds extreme opinions.

I find that if I invest all my certainty into eternity, and none of it here on earth, then I can have the best of both worlds. Christ and God are unassailable, and untouchable, but everything else is negotiable, and open to debate without fear.

However, this is the aspiration and I don't think I always - or even mostly - manage to achieve it.

[Catherineanne]

I feel that the root of all problems Christians have has to do with a few things, but the main thing is actually fear of God's love, despite protestations of faith to the contrary. This has to do with what was started in the other thread, Faith and Certainty, that mostly we learn about God 's love as only conditional. This is evidenced in the Church's teachings that repentance and all manner of theologic inventory is necessary to achieve God's love.


I think you are right. Very often when I talk of God's love being the heart of the Incarnation, and of his acceptance being offered freely to all mankind, I am accused of watering down the gospel, of wanting a fluffy bunny kind of faith or even of being anti-Christ.

God's love is what keeps Christ nailed to the cross, and what keeps Our Lady and John at the foot of the cross, until Christ commits them to one another's care. God's love is what takes Paul to Rome to die, and is beside Stephen outside Jerusalem as he is stoned.

There is nothing soft and fluffy about this kind of love. It is determined, obstinate and non-compromising about acceptance, mercy and compassion and it is most certainly not aggressive, arrogant or elitist. Unless we keep this Divine Love at the heart of everything we say and everything we do, our words are meaningless, as the Blessed Paul tells us in no uncertain terms, and as Christ himself says.

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another as I have loved you.

[boughtwithaprice]

I think you are right. Very often when I talk of God's love being the heart of the Incarnation, and of his acceptance being offered freely to all mankind, I am accused of watering down the gospel, of wanting a fluffy bunny kind of faith or even of being anti-Christ.

God's love is what keeps Christ nailed to the cross, and what keeps Our Lady and John at the foot of the cross, until Christ commits them to one another's care. God's love is what takes Paul to Rome to die, and is beside Stephen outside Jerusalem as he is stoned.

There is nothing soft and fluffy about this kind of love. It is determined, obstinate and non-compromising about acceptance, mercy and compassion and it is most certainly not aggressive, arrogant or elitist. Unless we keep this Divine Love at the heart of everything we say and everything we do, our words are meaningless, as the Blessed Paul tells us in no uncertain terms, and as Christ himself says.

By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Perfect love casts out fear:)