Who is the real God of the Old Testament? 2nd assignment

[Eccl12and13]

Hello: My real name is Ray and I would like to introduce myself to this forum.

I consider myself a Bible Christian believing everything in the Bible from, "In the Beginning God..." to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen" I am a simple man from a very simple background. I have been in the TRUE word of God for about 3.5 yrs and what an eye-opening experience it has been. During this time I have come to one conclusion and one conclusion only, hence my login name; 1st assignment.

I have been watching this site for a few weeks and I pray as a result of reading and responding to eachothers posts we all come, "To know wisdom and instuction; to perceive the words of understanding;." Prov 1:2

Before I get started I would like to ensure we all agree upon the same thing. That being, the Bible is the inspired word of God. It was written by men but it is absolutely infallible and contains no contradictions. For, as we know, if there is just (1) contradiction, all we call faith is void. "All scriptures is given by inspiration of God and is proftable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in rightness. II Tim 3:16.

So......let's get started!!!


WHO IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?


So why is it so important that we know who the God of the Old Testament (OT) is? After all, isn't the one we all learned as God the Father the God of the OT? Well, after doing some research, in the Bible, you may come to a different conclusion. Now some of what I present my go totally against what you have been taught, or understood to be, but again, this is not my interpretation. Like I said above, I'm a simple man reading the Bible, blinders off.

Now when I say God of the OT, I am assuming you have been brought up in a church, school, or family that taught you for the most part, the God of the OT is the one most have come to know as God the Father, a totally different person than Jesus Christ. Well, let's see if that holds up to the Doctrine of the Bible; see II Tim 3:16 above.

It has long been said that no man has seen God at anytime. And until I started reading the Bible for myself, that was an assupmtion I held for quite awhile. Now that I've read it, it is no longer an assumption. After reading the book of St. John in the New Testament (NT) and finding the following scriptures I would have to agree:

John: 1:18-No Man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

John: 5:37-And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John: 6:46-Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Now these scriptures seem absolute. For me (...NO MAN...), (...AT ANY TIME...), and (...NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE,...NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE....) are pretty big red flags. The scriptures do not appear to be used figuratively. So I would have to take them to mean just what they say. No man has seen God, heard his voice nor seen his shape at anytime. And let's not forget who made (2) of those quotes! Jesus himself!! (sorry the quotes are not in red, having a few tech issues!) Also, did you notice the distinction made in the (3) quotes? Both Jesus and John referred to God as, God the Father.

So it would be safe to assume, according to the scriptures, (see II Tim 3:16 once again, this is where we must get all of what we practice.) that no one has EVER, EVER seen God the Father. I mean, this has to be absolute!!!! JESUS SAID IT!!!! Now just think about that for one moment.......AT ANY TIME......AT ANY TIME.....

What I'm going to do now is just throw some scriptures out and what I want you to do is just think about what Jesus Christ himself said.."....HEARD HIS VOICE...."No Man"......"At Any Time..." SEEN HIS SHAPE......"

OK...here we go: Gen 3: 9-10, 9- And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10- And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Here's one: Gen 4:9, 9- And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

And some more: Exd 24:9-11, 9- Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10- And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone,.....

11- And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his habd....

Exd 33:23- And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


So my question to the forum is......What do we have here? John and Jesus Christ said that NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD THE FATHER, quoted from the (NT). And we also find, quoted from the (OT) that Adam and Cain both heard God, and at least Seventy-Four (74) elders could see God and determined that he has both hands and feet.

How could this be? Do we have a contradiction? God forbid!!! My time is up for now. I'll try to continue the rest of this lesson tomorrow. I look forward to all responses and comments.

Peace in Jesus,
Eccl12and13 (Did you look it up yet? That was assignment #1 remember?)

[Tavita]

Do you mean Ecclesiastes chapters 12 and 13? If so, there is no chapter 13.

Welcome to CF!

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the Name of Jesus:

Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

One cannot discern a book by starting in the middle.
But Jesus is in the middle of bible. And he is the beginning and the end.

If there is ONe God almighty. which is Monotheism of which Christianity is derived from. Then God the father and God the son, must be One God. As the tree and the Limb, are one tree.

And Isaiah 9;6; Does say Son born His names shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, and his Kingdom shall have no end. Meaning the Son rules all things.

If the Father cannot become the Son, then the father is not Omnipotent. Can man Judge God and say: God wouldn't or shouldn't become " as Grass " to suffer and die, " valued at thirty pieces of silver"? My God almighty did the Unbelievable. and Became a lamb to the sacrifice for man.

I pray no one is offended by my beliefs and precepts of faith.
God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[Oscarr]

To begin:

Jesus came to the Jews to reveal to them who exactly their God is. He said, "Who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus came to show the Jews the Living Father.

This is the same God who has been there all along. He has always been the Living Eternal Father, but He did not reveal Himself as that to the OT Jews.

Adam knew Him as the Living Father, and a Person whom he had close fellowship with. But when Adam disobeyed God and handed over the whole creation to Satan through his rebellion against God, he lost that fellowship with the Fatherhood of God, and God became someone who frightened him. A great gulf was formed between God and man through the sin of Adam and its effects on the whole human race.

The OT folks could only approach God through burned offerings and sacrifices, and a select few had a closer relationship with Him, but it was only a relationship of servanthood and obedience. It was not a fellowship with the Father as we know it. God gave them instructions and they followed them. God withheld his Fatherhood to mankind because of their sin.

It was only when Jesus died for our sins, and rose again, and made those who accepted Him as Lord and Saviour, was the Father able to reveal His fatherhood to them.

Jesus told the Jews that even though they thought that Abraham was their father, it was in fact that Satan was their real father because they were still dead in their sins.

But for those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, they are removed from Satan's control and dominion. They actually die with Christ, and therefore die to the fatherhood of Satan, and are risen with Christ to newness of life. They are born again into the kingdom and family of God. As new creations in Christ, they become sons and daughters of God. The Living Father is now able to reveal His fatherhood to them.

Therefore, only those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour know God as their Father. They are reborn into the Father's family. Jesus becomes their elder Brother and family lawyer who advocates before the Father for them.

The OT Jews had no understanding of the Family of God in the way that Christians know it. Only those who are spiritually alive in Christ have that knowledge, because it is given to them by revelation. This is the great mystery that has been revealed to us in Christ.

There is no inconsistency in the nature of God from the OT to the NT. He is always the same, yesterday today and forever, but there has been a difference in the way He has revealed Himself to mankind. The essential nature of God has never changed. He has always been the Eternal Living Father, and His working through OT times has been toward sending His Son, Jesus Christ to be the first born of many brothers and sisters. When the Father said "This is my Son, this day have I begotten thee," He was talking about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, where His Son had died physically and spiritually for our sin, went down into Hell to satisfy the demands of divine justice on our behalf, then made alive. It was at His resurrection that Jesus changed from being the glorious second person of the Trinity, to being the New Born Son of God. Jesus became the first born again Person, the first New Creation, and as we accept Him as Lord and Saviour, we are born again of the Spirit of God.

The Scripture says that 'if the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us, He will give new life to our mortal bodies. This recreates us, makes our spirits alive, and causes us to be able to stand before and fellowship with our Father God without any fear, guilt, or sense of inferiority as sons and daughters, co-heirs with Christ.

So if we see the revelation of God being the supreme Lawgiver and requiring obedience through the Law and sacrifices as a transition stage in the development of mankind toward the revealing of His Son Jesus Christ, the risen Lord of Glory, then we see the OT revealing of God in its true context.

The key is in how God is revealed to mankind in the different covenants and dispensations of His dealings with mankind through the ages.

[Eccl12and13]

TavitaDo you mean Ecclesiastes chapters 12 and 13? If so, there is no chapter 13.

Welcome to CF!



Hello Tavita: Thanks for the welcome. The scripture I was referring to is Eccl Chap 12, vs 13. Did you get a chance to look it up yet?

[RefrusRevlis]

Hi Eccl12and 13 (one of my favourite verses). I'm not entirely sure where you are going with your post, but I will say what I believe. The apparent contradictions (God is seen yet god cannot be seen) are explained by John 1:18. Jesus was the rock that followed the wandering Jews 1 Cor 10:4

and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

I think there is a strong case to say pre-incarnate Christ was the God revealed in the Old Testament, sometimes called the Angel of YHWH. I think there is much more to Christ being called the "Word" than initially meets the eye. A word is the inner man expressed. A word makes known the unknowable inner thoughts of a person. Christ makes known the invisible God.

Just some thoughts

Refrus

[Eccl12and13]

Hello Spirit and greetings.

And if you are using the scripture

Isa.28;10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

as a way we must study the word of God I totally agree with you.

I am finding it hard, however, tying in your statement about (One cannot discern a book by starting in the middle.) into what I was talking about.

Also you say, (If there is ONe God almighty. which is Monotheism of which Christianity is derived from. Then God the father and God the son, must be One God. As the tree and the Limb, are one tree.) I would like to know how you came to that conclusion. If you could give me the SCRIPTURE'S and VERSE'S that would be great...remeber "here a little and there a little."

I ask you to please refer back to my post; "All scriptures is given by inspiration of God and is proftable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in rightness. II Tim 3:16. All of what we teach and practice MUST come from the word of God. If we get our teaching from any other source how can we say it is of God. Please, as always, correct me if I'm wrong on this...but remember, correct me using the DOCTRINE of God, not mans.

Like I said before I'm a very simple man with simple ways. So here is my question in a shorter form:



Both John and Jesus said the following:

John: 1:18-No Man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

John: 5:37-And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John: 6:46-Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


And we have recorded in Gen and Ex the following:

Gen 3: 9-10, 9- And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10- And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Here's one: Gen 4:9, 9- And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

And some more: Exd 24:9-11, 9- Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:

10- And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone,.....

11- And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his habd....

Exd 33:23- And I will take mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.



Now my question is very simple: Has ANY MAN, EVER seen or heard God the Father or not?

Now don't read more into this than you need to. All I'm asking is maybe the God that we have read about is not the one we have been taught about. THINK ABOUT IT!!!

[Eccl12and13]

Hello Oscar; Thanks for reading my post:

Well I read your post and all I can say is that I see a disticnt differernce between our post. Here is a part from yours:

Jesus came to the Jews to reveal to them who exactly their God is. He said, "Who has seen Me has seen the Father." Jesus came to show the Jews the Living Father.

This is the same God who has been there all along. He has always been the Living Eternal Father, but He did not reveal Himself as that to the OT Jews.

And here is a part from mine:

"All scriptures is given by inspiration of God and is proftable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in rightness. II Tim 3:16.


Once again, yours:


But for those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, they are removed from Satan's control and dominion. They actually die with Christ, and therefore die to the fatherhood of Satan, and are risen with Christ to newness of life. They are born again into the kingdom and family of God. As new creations in Christ, they become sons and daughters of God. The Living Father is now able to reveal His fatherhood to them.


And mine:


John: 1:18-No Man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

John: 5:37-And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John: 6:46-Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


Can you see the difference?

Now, as I have said before, I'm a simple man with simple ways. Now I'm not saying what you stated is wrong...but in order for this simple man to know that what you say is from the word of God you have GOT to back it up with scripture.

Now if you can please supply me with scriptures and verses so I can read them that would be great.


And trust me I know there are no contradictions in the word, but do you know which God Adam, Moses, and all of the other Jews talked to in the OT? I know....do you? Are you sure?

[Eccl12and13]

RefrusRevlisHi Eccl12and 13 (one of my favourite verses). I'm not entirely sure where you are going with your post, but I will say what I believe. The apparent contradictions (God is seen yet god cannot be seen) are explained by John 1:18. Jesus was the rock that followed the wandering Jews 1 Cor 10:4

and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Hello Refrus:

Thank God....Yes, Yes.... you know exactly where I am going with this. There is so much more to Jesus being called the Word of God than meets the eyes.

All I'm trying to do is to get the forum to just read the Word for themselves. The facts are very clear that Jesus Christ indeed was that spiritual rock that followed them.

There are no contradictions in the Holy word of God. The God that the nation of Israel heard on mount Sini was in fact the same God that died for all of our sins. And if you stay with me to read my next post, I will let the Bible prove it.

Thanks for reading.