Rabhi's answer as to why three major religions exist in the world

[visionary]

My rabbi asked me a tough question. He said, "Why did God create Yeshua if he was not the Messiah?" Then he went on to say it was because the sages always knew there would be two great monotheistic world religions in addition to Judaism long before the birth of Yeshua. Two - because one would be too overwhelming and would swallow the Jews whole. The sages knew one religion would stem from Ishmael, but did not know what the other would be until Christianity was born....

He also said God would bring the true messiah into the world because otherwise, the pagan Gentiles would be irreverent, and would forever continue to worship trees and stones. Knowing this, He created Christianity and Islam. Although radically different in many ways, he said, Islam and Christianity have two things in common: Both religions believe in one God, and they both believe He gave the Torah to the Jews. This was so the Gentile world would understand the concept of God, who the Jewish people were, and what it meant to believe in a savior.;)

http://www.therefinersfire.org/return_to_yeshua.htm

[mpossoff]

My rabbi asked me a tough question. He said, "Why did God create Yeshua if he was not the Messiah?" Then he went on to say it was because the sages always knew there would be two great monotheistic world religions in addition to Judaism long before the birth of Yeshua. Two - because one would be too overwhelming and would swallow the Jews whole. The sages knew one religion would stem from Ishmael, but did not know what the other would be until Christianity was born....

He also said God would bring the true messiah into the world because otherwise, the pagan Gentiles would be irreverent, and would forever continue to worship trees and stones. Knowing this, He created Christianity and Islam. Although radically different in many ways, he said, Islam and Christianity have two things in common: Both religions believe in one God, and they both believe He gave the Torah to the Jews. This was so the Gentile world would understand the concept of God, who the Jewish people were, and what it meant to believe in a savior.;)

http://www.therefinersfire.org/return_to_yeshua.htm

Interesting take.

Could God have willed it that way? Hmmm.

Marc

[christianmomof3]

Hmm, why did you only put the Rabbi's response? I like the next part - the Messianic Judaism response.
Here is that part:

Messianic Judaism's Response:
First of all, WHERE does the Bible say God created Messiah Yeshua? The Bible tells us Yeshua was begotten in the Image of His Father and that He was "everlasting", which denotes "from the beginning of time" (see Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2, John 1:1).
Isaiah 48:16 "Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now Adonai ELOHIM has sent me and his Spirit."
Yeshua himself affirmed his eternal existence in John 8:58: Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"
Yeshua was in God before the beginning of the world. (John 8:58, Colossians 1:17, John 1:10). Yeshua in His divine nature was not created, and was from eternity a manifestation in the nature and character of the Father. Yeshua is One with the "LORD" and equal to Him in character, in Mission, in Nature, in Purpose, in Intention and Authority. This is so because of the Nature of God as the Sender and Yeshua as the "Sent one". There is total equality between the "LORD" and Yeshua and at the same time there is also a hierarchy in that the "LORD" is called "Father", and Yeshua is called "Son". (Please see, John 14:28) The same hierarchy is seen in the fact that Yeshua voluntarily put on flesh. "God is a Spirit" and Yeshua has to be acknowledged as Flesh. (See Philippians 2:6-11, 1 John 4:1-2) This hierarchy is clear from the mission of Yeshua as it is described in John 6:38, "For I came down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me." From the above verse we see that Yeshua and the Father must have a relationship of "Sender" - "Sent", and Yeshua is not both the "sender" and the "sent" at the same time.
Even in the Flesh Yeshua retained that special relationship with the "LORD" which made him equal to God (Colossians 2:9). However, that Equality does not in any way change the Oneness of the "LORD", and does not alter the "UNITY" of God.
Your rabbi said the sages thought that "God would bring the true messiah into the world because otherwise, the pagan Gentiles would be irreverent, and would forever continue to worship trees and stones. Knowing this, He created Christianity and Islam."
And the sages "knew" this how? They didn't get this "knowledge" from the Bible because the BIBLE doesn't mention this "fact"! The Bible mentions that there would be "other gods" and plenty of false prophets, etc., but it never infers that there would be "two great monotheistic world religions" that were supposed to "show Gentiles the concept of God". Please ask that rabbi to present chapter and verse showing that GOD supports this viewpoint....
Something you have to remember is that these "wise sages" also came from the belief in an "oral torah" - an entity which came strictly from man. The Bible says Moshe wrote down EVERYTHING, which doesn't leave room for an "oral torah" (http://www.therefinersfire.org/moses_spoke.htm).
GOD "created Christianity and Islam"? What a childish concept! MAN "created" all religions, including Christianity and Islam. God "breathed" His Word but most of the world didn't hear or bother to obey. Historically, the world slipped away from its relationship with God, and eventually the entire world was submerged in idolatry. Abraham re-discovered the idea of one God, and chose to accept the challenge to change the world through an understanding of monotheism and morality. Through his dedication and willingness to give up everything for God, he was chosen - and all his descendants after him - to become the teachers of morality. Abraham chose God, and thus God chose Abraham, and that is why the Jews are God's "Chosen". The Bible, however, tells us in only one place about how the Jews became His "Chosen":
Deuteronomy 7: 6 For you are a people set apart as holy for ADONAI your God. ADONAI your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his own unique treasure. 7 ADONAI didn't set his heart on you or choose you because you numbered more than any other people - on the contrary, you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 Rather, it was because ADONAI loved you, and because he wanted to keep the oath which he had sworn to your ancestors, that ADONAI brought you out with a strong hand and redeemed you from a life of slavery under the hand of Pharoah king of Egypt.
MAN has chosen to twist God's Word and, consequently, we have a myriad "religions", each claiming to have the market cornered on the Word of God. God DID give us a New Covenant via Yeshua (Jeremiah 31:31-34) - but it was not "Christianity"; it was a continuation of Judaism. Christianity, for the most part, misunderstood that Yeshua (Jesus) said He came not to abolish but to fulfill/establish/confirm Torah. Most Christians tend to overlook that Yeshua was a Torah-keeping, Sabbath-keeping, feast-keeping, synagogue-attending/teaching, tallit-wearing kosher JEW who didn't start a new "religion".
And as far as Islam is concerned, people who can think and reason for themselves should recognize that this religion was started by a megalomaniac, belligerent, murdering, thieving pedophile who "borrowed" and twisted Scripture straight out of the Old Testament (600 years AFTER Christ!), and taught that anyone who refuses to convert to his religion should be killed. If God created Islam, then He is directly responsible for the horrible scenes you can find at the Abrahamic Faith (http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Clips.html) website.
Rest assured, God did NOT create evil; Satan did. God responds to our deliberate sinning; disciplining and judging His creation whenever needed. Because He gave us free will (knowing that we would be subject to evil, thanks to Satan and his hold on us since the fall of Adam and Eve), we often suffer the consequences of sin (i.e, if we murder someone we go to prison; if we start wars, we will have casualties; if we commit adultery, all those we love will eventually get hurt in the process....). "The purpose of all that was created was therefore to bring into existence a creature who could derive pleasure from God’s own good…"
Adam and Eve did not know either good or evil, as we now do, before eating of the tree. Evil was not created at the "fall" of man, but was inherent at the foundation of creation (remember it is the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil). (Please see Yashanet's Judaism 101: The Purpose of Creation (http://www.yashanet.com/studies/judaism101/lessons/lesson_1-2.htm).)
God has been MORE THAN tolerant of our behavior! Every time he got the Jews back on track, they backslid. One king would get the kingdom right with God, the next would bring in the idols and veer from God's Word and lead all his subjects astray. Today, we are getting ever more decadent as time goes on; we've kicked God out of our schools, our government, out of everywhere, and we've condemned what God said was good and decided that "bad" was "right on" (as evidenced, for instance, in the fact that homosexuals are "getting married" and being ordained as priests - when God clearly states, throughout the Bible, that He sees homosexuality as "an abomination"). God has, over and over again, given the Jews and the Gentiles plenty of chances to "get right" with Him - and we've failed miserably.
It appears that God has been tolerating "some situations, times, and people" thanks to His great love for us, as evidenced in the atoning death of His Son, Yeshua. Yeshua was our Final Sin Offering, and many have used that as "carte blanche" to sin (under the erroneous impression that we're free to do whatever we want).http://www.therefinersfire.org/return_to_yeshua.htm

[visionary]

I thought we all knew the MJ answer... In light of a different approach, I wonder why we can not be seen as jews? spiritual jews at least.

[mpossoff]

I thought we all knew the MJ answer... In light of a different approach, I wonder why we can not be seen as jews? spiritual jews at least.

This is from the Refiners Fire:

Paul argues that, if a Jewish boy has a bar mitzvah and later does not keep the Torah, then what's the point of his circumcision seal? Paul says, if a Gentile was not to be circumcised but he obeys God then is he uncircumcision become circumcision.

So in retrospect if you are the latter you are a Jew per say?

Marc

[ChavaK]

I wonder why we can not be seen as jews? spiritual jews at least.

Why would it be important to you to be seen as a Jew?
I have seen this opinion expressed by other messianics
and truly don't understand this need to be considered
a Jew....

:wave:

[visionary]

To the world, there are three religions and the rabbi sees it is for the purpose as he presented it. In the rabbi's assessment, can we not achieve the point where we are again considered a sect of Judaism as it was in the beginning before Rome messed it up.

Why would it be important to you to be seen as a Jew?
I have seen this opinion expressed by other messianics
and truly don't understand this need to be considered
a Jew....In light of the rabbi's assessment... I speak of the need to be spiritual jews as declared in Romans Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.Wouldn't it be nice to be considered a sect of judaism?

[Talmidah]

Wouldn't it be nice to be considered a sect of judaism?Why?

[visionary]

Then from that frame work, the light shall shine in its true colors. I would rather a million gentiles join judaism with the jewish messiah, Yeshua then the way it is a present, where jews feel they have to leave their faith to believe in Jesus.John 8:31 [ The Children of Abraham ] To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.Beside then we get to be a part of the fulfillment of prophecy. Exodus 19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites." to which us gentiles will grab ahold of... Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "and the world will see the multitude that no man can number because of prophecy again. Revelation 10:11
Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings." and they will just like Paul. Acts 19:26 And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all.

[ChavaK]

Wouldn't it be nice to be considered a sect of judaism?

I guess I am dense because I still don't understand
why. :)
MJ and Judaism are radicaly different belief systems,
so I don't know why one would feel the need to be
classified as part of a religion that does not share the
same basic beliefs.
But I guess not being a MJ makes it difficult for me
to understand this POV..:wave:

[visionary]

Back in the beginning when Yeshua walked the earth and his talmadims followed, it was the jewish faith. When the disciples were baptised in the spirit and preached from the roof tops, it was the jewish faith. When it was taken from city to city, it was preached from the synagogues, and it was still the jewish faith, even if the gentiles came the next sabbath to hear more. That is the faith of MJ, I hope. I would like both the christians and the different sects of Judaism to again recognise it as such. And this present movement was started by a Rabbi in the Jewish faith.

[ContraMundum]

Interesting to note that the Rabbi mentioned in the OP is merely taking a lead from Maimonides, who used this very same thread of logic to teach that HaShem gave only the Jews the Sabbath, giving the Moslems Friday and the Christians Sunday. Of course, traditional Judaism understands the Sabbath as a sign for Israel alone.

I think the logic should be carried through to its conclusion if it is to be valid at all.

Take it to its final degree if you are to take it anywhere: If this logic is not carried through, there is no need for HaShem to make any religion other than Judaism. Forget Yeshua. There is no need even for Israel, actually. If HaShem made Israel unique for a purpose, and then made other religions for a purpose, then all religions are of G-d.

You get the drift.

Furthermore, the comment in the MJ response:

"Something you have to remember is that these "wise sages" also came from the belief in an "oral torah" - an entity which came strictly from man. The Bible says Moshe wrote down EVERYTHING, which doesn't leave room for an "oral torah" (http://www.therefinersfire.org/moses_spoke.htm)."

is unscriptural. Moses did not write down everything he was told by G-d. (Dt 12:21 etc etc etc). Sabbath keeping, wearing of tefillin and tzitzis and many priestly functions require an oral tradition not recorded in the Torah to be understood and practiced, but clearly they were understood and practiced according to the way G-d had shown Moses.

Likewise, without an oral tradition many things in scripture remain mysterious- how did Cain and Abel know about sacrifices and how to do them? How about the offerings given and altars built by Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob? How did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean to take into the Ark?

The Tanakh demands an oral tradition.

[christianmomof3]

Interesting to note that the Rabbi mentioned in the OP is merely taking a lead from Maimonides, who used this very same thread of logic to teach that HaShem gave only the Jews the Sabbath, giving the Moslems Friday and the Christians Sunday. Of course, traditional Judaism understands the Sabbath as a sign for Israel alone.

I think the logic should be carried through to its conclusion if it is to be valid at all.

Take it to its final degree if you are to take it anywhere: If this logic is not carried through, there is no need for HaShem to make any religion other than Judaism. Forget Yeshua. There is no need even for Israel, actually. If HaShem made Israel unique for a purpose, and then made other religions for a purpose, then all religions are of G-d.

You get the drift.

Furthermore, the comment in the MJ response:



is unscriptural. Moses did not write down everything he was told by G-d. (Dt 12:21 etc etc etc). Sabbath keeping, wearing of tefillin and tzitzis and many priestly functions require an oral tradition not recorded in the Torah to be understood and practiced, but clearly they were understood and practiced according to the way G-d had shown Moses.

Likewise, without an oral tradition many things in scripture remain mysterious- how did Cain and Abel know about sacrifices and how to do them? How about the offerings given and altars built by Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob? How did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean to take into the Ark?

The Tanakh demands an oral tradition.
I like your reply. I also found that comment in the MJ response about no oral torah a bit off.
But, I liked parts of the MJ response.:)

[ContraMundum]

I like your reply. I also found that comment in the MJ response about no oral torah a bit off.
But, I liked parts of the MJ response.:)

There's good and bad in that response. I always say eat the meat and spit out the bones.

[ChazakEmunah]

Contra,

You made such a beautiful point about the need for the Oral Torah.

I'm watching a debate go back and forth on another forum where on the one hand a Traditional Jew is arguing for the necessity of the Oral Torah, and on the other a Messianic Jew is arguing against it.

You made the point so beautifully and understand it so well I don't know why others can't seem to grasp it.

[HadassahSukkot]

Interesting to note that the Rabbi mentioned in the OP is merely taking a lead from Maimonides, who used this very same thread of logic to teach that HaShem gave only the Jews the Sabbath, giving the Moslems Friday and the Christians Sunday. Of course, traditional Judaism understands the Sabbath as a sign for Israel alone.

I think the logic should be carried through to its conclusion if it is to be valid at all.

Take it to its final degree if you are to take it anywhere: If this logic is not carried through, there is no need for HaShem to make any religion other than Judaism. Forget Yeshua. There is no need even for Israel, actually. If HaShem made Israel unique for a purpose, and then made other religions for a purpose, then all religions are of G-d.

You get the drift.

Furthermore, the comment in the MJ response:



is unscriptural. Moses did not write down everything he was told by G-d. (Dt 12:21 etc etc etc). Sabbath keeping, wearing of tefillin and tzitzis and many priestly functions require an oral tradition not recorded in the Torah to be understood and practiced, but clearly they were understood and practiced according to the way G-d had shown Moses.

Likewise, without an oral tradition many things in scripture remain mysterious- how did Cain and Abel know about sacrifices and how to do them? How about the offerings given and altars built by Noah, Abraham, Issac and Jacob? How did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean to take into the Ark?

The Tanakh demands an oral tradition.
You stole my thunder.. LOL

But you said it way better than I could... so I guess it wasn't really stealing now, was it? :D

[ContraMundum]

Why, thank you! :)

Glad to be of service.

[Sephania]

I like your reply. I also found that comment in the MJ response about no oral torah a bit off.
But, I liked parts of the MJ response.:) I would have to say without knowing, that it sounds like a Messianic sola scriptura gentile wrote that. ;)

[ContraMundum]

I would have to say without knowing, that it sounds like a Messianic sola scriptura gentile wrote that. ;)

Aren't most of them?

Seriously, the modernist American version of Sola Scriptura being the foundational basis of most MJ congregations is par for the course in my experience. I see it here....a lot.

[HadassahSukkot]

It isn't just MG's who spout it either....

I don't think it is really anything that has to do with one's DNA, but rather the environment in which they learn their theology...

[ContraMundum]

It isn't just MG's who spout it either....

I don't think it is really anything that has to do with one's DNA, but rather the environment in which they learn their theology...


I couldn't agree more.

[nasa1]

G-d did not create Islam. Satan created Islam.

G-d is not the creator of religions - man creates religions.

nasa1

[nasa1]

G-d did not create Islam. Satan created Islam.

G-d is not the creator of religions - man creates religions.

nasa1

[nasa1]

G-d did not create Islam. Satan created Islam.

G-d is not the creator of religions - man creates religions. I do not believe that satan is the sole creator of Judaism or Christianity, but I do believe they are created by man, and that the devil\'s influence can be found in them. True religion is to be a Good Samaritan.

nasa1

[visionary]

This was so the Gentile world would understand the concept of God, who the Jewish people were, and what it meant to believe in a saviorThe focus is still in relationship to Judaism faith. Even in opposition, Islam makes Judaism a focus. Even in replacement, Judaism is its nemesis.