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JasonV
29th July 2007, 01:47 AM
Liberal Catholics and the Liberal Catholic Church International



As there has been some confusion over the difference between “liberal Catholics” and the Liberal Catholic Church, I thought a few words of explanation might be in order.

"Liberal Catholics" are, for the most part, members and post-members of the Roman Catholic Church which falls under the jurisdiction of the Holy See of Rome. This Church is the largest single “branch” of the One Holy Catholic And Apostolic Church. (Some might even call it the “root and trunk” of The Church.)

The Liberal Catholic Church International is but a twig in comparison to her sister Church under His Holiness Benedict XVI. The Liberal Catholic Church was founded in England in 1916, having changed it’s name from the Old Catholic Church of Great Britain in order to clarify that it was no longer under the jurisdiction of the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches in Holland. It was also at this same time that the college of Bishops of the newly reorganized Church elevated +James Ingall Wedgwood to the Episcopate and elected him as Presiding Bishop of the Church.

+Wedgwood was consecrated and came under the Apostolic Succession of +Frederick Samuel Willoughby, who was consecrated by +Arnold Harris Mathew. While some Anglicans and Old Catholics have called into question +Mathew’s Orders, I here provide you with a lineage of succession as per the Consecrator, back to the same +Scipione Cardinal Rebiba from whom 99% of all Roman Catholic clergy received their Apostolic Succession:

+Arnold Harris Mathew
+Gerard Gul
+Casparus Johannes Rinkel
+Johannes van Santen
+Johannes Bon
+Willibord van Os
+Gilbert Cornelius de Jong
+Johannes Jacobus van Rhijn
+Adrianus Johannes Broekman
+Gaulterus Michael van Nieuwnhuizen
+Johannes van Stiphout
+Petrus Johannes Meindaarts
+Dominicus Marie Varlet
+Jacques Goyon de Matignon
+Jacques Benigne Bousuette
+Charles Maurice Le Tellier
+Antonio Cardinal Barberini
+Giovanni Battista Scanaroli
+Luigi Cardinal Caetani
+Ludovico Cardinal Ludovisi
+Galeazzo Sanvitale
+Girolamo Cardinal Bernerio
+Guilio Antonio Cardinal Santorio
+Scipione Cardinal Rebiba


The Liberal Catholic Church grew and spread around the globe and established missions in western Europe, the United States, Canada, Venezuela, South Africa, India and Australia. In the late 1940’s, the Regionary Bishop of the United States, +Charles Hampton, found himself being ousted uncanonically by the Presiding Bishop in England, +Frank Waters Pigott, and at the urging of his flock, separated from the rest of the LCC. This body became what is today known as the Liberal Catholic Church International.

For many years, due to its emphasis of Freedom of Belief, no definitive statement of "Official Teachings" of the Church existed. In response to the many inquiries of persons interested knowing more about the Church, the General Episcopal Synod saw fit in 1994 to assemble a list of teachings that they felt reflected the character of the LCCI. A heavily edited version follows here. It should be understood, however, that these statements are teachings, but not required beliefs. The Church’s stance on freedom of thought has not been abandoned.

-We teach the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.


-We teach that God the Father is the Creator and Preserver of Mankind and that His love shall never fail.


-We teach that the historic Jesus is the Christ, who is also the Ancient of Days. We teach that He was incarnated (born of the Virgin Mary), crucified, resurrected and ascended.


-We teach that there are seven Sacraments: Baptism, Holy Eucharist, Absolution, Confirmation, Holy Matrimony, Holy Unction, and Holy Orders.


-We teach that the minor orders (Cleric, Doorkeeper, Reader, Exorcist, and Acolyte) are intended primarily to assist the candidate in his own spiritual growth and life. We teach that the major orders (Deacon, Priest, and Bishop) are intended primarily to assist the Christian Community. Subdeacon is an intermediate stage. Both men and women may be ordained to any of these levels.


-We teach that the Holy Scriptures, the Creeds, and the Traditions of the Church are the means by which the teachings of Christ have been handed down to His followers. We teach that they are fundamental, true, and sufficient as a basis for right understanding and right conduct.


-We teach that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inspired in a general sense only, and can in no way be construed as verbally infallible. We hold that the books of the Old Testament are of unequal value.


-We teach that all Christian worship is valid, of whatever kind, so long as it is earnest and true.


-We teach that everyone shall "one day reach His Feet, however far they stray."

In conclusion, while there may be some similarities held by those who are “liberal Catholics” under the Holy See, and those few members of the Liberal Catholic Church International, it would be incorrect to say that they are one and the same. While both groups share the same fundamental goal of teaching of the Gospel and distribution of the Sacraments, the diversity between them in other theological matters remains wide.

Rebekka
29th July 2007, 01:57 PM
Very interesting - thanks JasonV!

Rochir
29th July 2007, 03:04 PM
VERY interesting! Thanks for posting this! :)

JasonV
29th July 2007, 06:29 PM
I hope it's useful in some way.

Loki
29th July 2007, 07:33 PM
Thank you for sharing your faith with us.

JasonV
29th July 2007, 07:59 PM
Perhaps it might be a good idea to ask everyone to share the Gospel as they understand it?

Loki
29th July 2007, 11:05 PM
Perhaps it might be a good idea to ask everyone to share the Gospel as they understand it?

Yes, but that's a ginormous topic for at least another thread, if not several volumes of text ;)

RadicallyTransformedMom
30th July 2007, 09:12 AM
from what i remember about the Liberal Catholic Church they believe in reincarnation, karma, they accept everyone for communion/eucharist, they believe in transubstanation, they don't believe in hell as eternal damnation, they don't see homosexuality as a sin, they ordain women, they acknowledge all 7 sacraments.

would you care to comment Jason? Is this accurate or have i been misinformed?

JasonV
30th July 2007, 12:29 PM
Yes, but that's a ginormous topic for at least another thread, if not several volumes of text ;)

Good idea. Perhaps you'll get us started? ;)

from what i remember about the Liberal Catholic Church they believe in reincarnation, karma, they accept everyone for communion/eucharist, they believe in transubstanation, they don't believe in hell as eternal damnation, they don't see homosexuality as a sin, they ordain women, they acknowledge all 7 sacraments.

would you care to comment Jason? Is this accurate or have i been misinformed?

Yes and no RTM. As I've stated previously, there are two branches of the LCC in the US. The LCC are all you've mentioned above except ordaination of Women. The LCCI do ordain women, don't teach Reincarnation or Karma (they're optional) but the rest applies.

kimber1
2nd August 2007, 12:23 PM
-We teach that the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inspired in a general sense only, and can in no way be construed as verbally infallible. We hold that the books of the Old Testament are of unequal value.


can you expand on what this means?

JasonV
2nd August 2007, 01:37 PM
can you expand on what this means?

Basically, as I understand it, we reject Biblical inerrancy (and likely Biblical infallibility).

Some books of the Old Testament are of more spiritual value than others, and some are quite simply relics of a barbaric past that should be left in the past. For this reason, we view the book of Psalms in a much greater light than, say, Leviticus.

Does that help?

kimber1
2nd August 2007, 03:12 PM
Basically, as I understand it, we reject Biblical inerrancy (and likely Biblical infallibility).

Some books of the Old Testament are of more spiritual value than others, and some are quite simply relics of a barbaric past that should be left in the past. For this reason, we view the book of Psalms in a much greater light than, say, Leviticus.

Does that help?ahhh yes it does:)thanks:)

RadicallyTransformedMom
3rd August 2007, 08:13 AM
thanks for the clarification Jason

JasonV
3rd August 2007, 01:04 PM
No problemo!

Torah613
3rd August 2007, 05:23 PM
well speaking as I'm assuming the position on resident talmudic expert here, as the LCCI and no doupt the LCC (not to mention christianity in general) are primarily made up of people who are not halachachly Jewish (born of a Jewish mother who was also born of a Jewish mother etc.), there would be no need to pay attention to the specific mitzvot found in Leviticus except for maybe the decalogue. As for the Tehilim (Psalms), they are beutiful and aweinspiring poetry that can speak to the soul of even a person who has no connection to judeo-christian thought.

I imagine the rev falwell (I use that term of respect lightly, and only out of respect for the good elements of the faith of those who followed this would be tzaddik) ate shrimp and cheeseburgers (both bigger no-nos than homosexuality I might add).

Only one who is halachichly Jewish has an obligation to keep the mitzvot, and according to some scholars even they have no such obligation if they pointedly reject it upon having reached the age of 13.

Shalom Aleichem!
Yochanan

JasonV
3rd August 2007, 06:26 PM
My friend,

I apologize for my rude comments here. I thought to use an example of a belief that is clearly held sacred by some Christians and may Jews. Specifically, I was considering the passages against things like homosexuality and jewelry as an example of something that is "not true". I should not have generalized the entire book of Leviticus, nor spoken ill of them using the phrase "barbaric".

Please forgive my terrible language. It is inexcusable.

well speaking as I'm assuming the position on resident talmudic expert here, as the LCCI and no doupt the LCC (not to mention christianity in general) are primarily made up of people who are not halachachly Jewish (born of a Jewish mother who was also born of a Jewish mother etc.), there would be no need to pay attention to the specific mitzvot found in Leviticus except for maybe the decalogue. As for the Tehilim (Psalms), they are beutiful and aweinspiring poetry that can speak to the soul of even a person who has no connection to judeo-christian thought.

I imagine the rev falwell (I use that term of respect lightly, and only out of respect for the good elements of the faith of those who followed this would be tzaddik) ate shrimp and cheeseburgers (both bigger no-nos than homosexuality I might add).

Only one who is halachichly Jewish has an obligation to keep the mitzvot, and according to some scholars even they have no such obligation if they pointedly reject it upon having reached the age of 13.

Shalom Aleichem!
Yochanan

Torah613
7th August 2007, 12:35 PM
oh girl please. I took no offense.

Many of the Mitzvot are barbaric (the specific sacrifices for specific sins and the ritual manner in which to do them). Some are leagues before their time (such as washing the hands after using the lavratory). I understand why Christians keep the Torah as part of their scriptures, but frankly they should use the Torah as more background for their own story than anything else.

These Christians who rail on and on about homosexuality and ostentatious jewelry etc. should be walking around wearing a tallit and donning tefflin on a daily basis (note that I recognize that some christians do do this). You can't take part and raise it above the rest. No mitzvah is higher than another and any can lead to sanctification. Any good chabadnik Rabbi would say as such, and they are ultra-Orthodox.

The point of the matter is, if you read the book of leviticus and interpret it according to standard fundamentalist standards, consuming shrimp is a greater abomination to G-d than homosexual acts. Now again if you interpret the book of leviticus (and for that matter the rest of the Torah) in light of hte culture from which it outgrew and as part of a continuously evolving religioculture of which it is a central part you get an entirely different picture of what these Mitzvot really mean. But that is the topic of another thread altogether.

Yochanan

JasonV
7th August 2007, 04:42 PM
oh girl please. I took no offense.

"Yes I am serious...and don't call me Shirley." ;)

Tube Socks Dude
8th August 2007, 12:13 AM
Glad to see that something like the LCCI exists. Looks like they tried to blend Eastern and Western religious Traditions, rather like the Theosophical School. I don't seem to resonate with Theosophy itself very much, but I think I could really groove on LCCI if it were locally available.

TSD

JasonV
8th August 2007, 01:13 AM
TSD,

There are several churches in existence that are fairly similar to the LCCI. With enough searching, you may find something similar in your area. If you'd like help in searching, just send me a PM.

Irenaeus
10th August 2007, 02:45 PM
Hi Jason!

What documentation does the LCC have for this:

Scipione Cardinal Rebiba from whom 99% of all Roman Catholic clergy received their Apostolic Succession:

99% from one Cardinal?

JasonV
10th August 2007, 02:49 PM
Hi Jason!

What documentation does the LCC have for this:
99% from one Cardinal?

"More than 91% of the world’s more than 4,000 Catholic bishops alive today trace their episcopal lineage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_episcopate) back to Rebiba."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scipione_Cardinal_Rebiba

See also this article: http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gdmc/aposccs/