Within your denomination...

[Macrina]

...or within your congregation, if your church is non-denominational...

Where are you on the conservative/liberal spectrum?

Is there a wide range of theological perspectives, or do most people of your denomination hold to basically the same positions?

If there are significant differences, how do you as a body work to maintain both unity and truth?

Just some questions to provoke thought... Basically, I hope you'll share a bit about your denomination/tradition and the place of conservatives therein.

My post to follow.

[Macrina]

I'm one of the most conservative clergy members of my denomination, although the average person in the pew isn't as liberal as the average clergyperson.

We're a very diverse denomination in many ways, and that causes a struggle for us. While our official statements affirm conservative/orthodox doctrine and policy, and the large majority of us want to uphold those statements, there is a loud minority who wants to change things. They're the ones who tend to make the headlines with skewed versions of our denominational policy, which just adds to the frustration of those who are working to strengthen our Biblical stands against the tendency to go astray.

A number of our congregations have wearied of the fight (the liberal element, while still a minority, is very persistent and has made it clear that they will not rest until they have their way) and are leaving the denomination. This is disheartening to those of us who, in now-weakened numbers, are working hard for the doctrinal purity of our church.

I'm active in efforts to strengthen our policies and statements so that they uphold biblical standards for sexuality. I'm also vocal about some other issues that from time to time get me in a little trouble. ;) But for the most part, I've learned how to work with people "on the other side" -- I like to think I've gotten better at communicating my convictions in a way they can hear. It's a matter of constant growth, though.

[Izdaari]

My church is Assembly of God, so I suppose I'm one of the more liberal members. Of course, liberal for AG is still pretty conservative.

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm non-denominational, and my church is an evangelical, charismatic form of Protestant, I suppose.

The strange thing is, before CF, I wasn't even aware there was a liberal/conservative divide. In England, it doesn't seem to exist in "the real world", so I don't know if CF artificially fosters it, or whether it just hasn't reached English shores. England isn't "a Christian nation" in the same way America is, so maybe less people feel they need to arbitrarily interpet what that means in order to fit in.

But as far as my church goes, am about normal. Most people believe the Bible is the Word, and Jesus is the Word made flesh. He quoted scriptures frequently, and if it's good enough for Him, it's good enough for us.

[Voegelin]

In England, it doesn't seem to exist in "the real world", so I don't know if CF artificially fosters it, or whether it just hasn't reached English shores.

Familiar with Correlli Barnett's 4 book series? The second book, "The Audit of War" explains how the unanimity you see in the UK developed. It wasn't always there. Many--Belloc, T.S. Eliot, Chesterton--opposed it.


England isn't "a Christian nation" in the same way America is, so maybe less people feel they need to arbitrarily interpet what that means in order to fit in.

Arbitrarily? There are profound moral differences here and they stem from biblically based outlooks. Disreali v Gladstone, Churchill v. Attlee. England underwent a moral revolution between Balfour and the end of Victoria's reign and Chamberlain. It was led by clergy allies with the upper classes. One doesn't have to "interpet" this. It is there.

But to get BACK to the OP . . . I'm non-denominational. Closest to me in my town are the Orthodox. Then the Catholics. All the protestant denominations are pro-choice. Shows how history moves on. My small New England town was Congregationalist when that meant, not Unitarian Congregationalism but Neo-Calvinism. They were the only church in town. For centuries.

[GreenMunchkin]

Arbitrarily? There are profound moral differences here and they stem from biblically based outlooks. Disreali v Gladstone, Churchill v. Attlee. England underwent a moral revolution between Balfour and the end of Victoria's reign and Chamberlain. It was led by clergy allies with the upper classes. One doesn't have to "interpet" this. It is there.I imagine liberalism is so rife in America partly because its label is "Christian nation". Over here, we don't have that same overt label, so there's nothing to rage against, so to speak. England is deep in apostasy and has been for a very long time, to the point where it's "cool" and subversive to blaspheme. Most people here simply don't believe, and aren't brought up to believe because it's no longer a part of our foundation.

From what I know of it, America isn't quite like that.

[Albion]

Is there a wide range of theological perspectives, or do most people of your denomination hold to basically the same positions?

There is not much of a range, but then again the body is conservative and exists because of separating from the very liberal Episcopal Church USA.

I'm probably about in the middle of the range, such as it is.[/quote]

[Jim47]

I imagine liberalism is so rife in America partly because its label is "Christian nation". Over here, we don't have that same overt label, so there's nothing to rage against, so to speak. England is deep in apostasy and has been for a very long time, to the point where it's "cool" and subversive to blaspheme. Most people here simply don't believe, and aren't brought up to believe because it's no longer a part of our foundation.

From what I know of it, America isn't quite like that.


I'm not sure things are all that much different in the US. My Pastor has told me that we have more missionaries sent to the US by other countries then any other nation. I've seen and heard all kinds of statistics and I think for the most part they are all off by a lot. For instance in a town of 5,000 people there are only enough seats in churchs for maybe 1000, and you can go to anyone of those churchs and hardly find them even half filled. I really don't consider us a Christian nation. WE were founded as a Christian nation but there is little left of that.

We prmote the killing of unborn babies and the elderly but want to reward those committ terrible crimes and let them off scott free after just a year or so in prison only committ those same crimes over again. :sigh: There is little left of a real justice system and now instead we now reward those who are unjust.

Our legislaters instead of working on the serious problems we have spend all their time (and the tax payers money) making laws to further oppress common people and make themselves yet more powerful. Big government and taking away the voice of the common people is what it is all about.

Thankfully we still have most of our religious freedom, but even that is diasppearing. We now have communities where there are large concentrations of Muslims and the local law makers are vastly favor giving them unconstutional rights while at the same time depriving Christians of theirs. Its a sinful world we live in and growing more so.

[Albion]

I imagine liberalism is so rife in America partly because its label is "Christian nation". Over here, we don't have that same overt label, so there's nothing to rage against, so to speak. England is deep in apostasy and has been for a very long time, to the point where it's "cool" and subversive to blaspheme. Most people here simply don't believe, and aren't brought up to believe because it's no longer a part of our foundation.

From what I know of it, America isn't quite like that.

For what it's worth, I'd add my "second" to what Jim wrote. There may be some difference in principle, but in practice there seems to be a similarity.

Maybe the fact that more Americans are still nominal or non-churchgoing Christians has the effect of bringing out the efforts of those who want to purge society of any faith. In England, they may be more subdued, owing to the conviction that they're already done their work, by and large.

[Lisa0315]

...or within your congregation, if your church is non-denominational...

Where are you on the conservative/liberal spectrum?

Is there a wide range of theological perspectives, or do most people of your denomination hold to basically the same positions?

If there are significant differences, how do you as a body work to maintain both unity and truth?

Just some questions to provoke thought... Basically, I hope you'll share a bit about your denomination/tradition and the place of conservatives therein.

My post to follow.

Within the Baptist denomination, probably a broad spectrum. Within my congregation, we are pretty much in agreement about all things.

Lisa

[Macrina]

As for the question about how "Christian" America is an to what extent the theological divide amongst Christians is visible... Well, that varies a lot by region.

I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, in the least-churched part of the country. I imagine it was something like England, inasmuch as most people didn't go to church. That meant the religious dividing line wasn't between conservatives and liberals, but between Christians and non-Christians. It didn't matter so much what specific Christian label you wore -- we were all Christians together.

I now live in the Deep South, which is very different from where I grew up. In my town, it's pretty much assumed that everyone is a Christian, so the religious dividing lines tend to be between denominations and along liberal/conservative lines. It's actually been quite a culture shock for me here, because it's so very different from what I had experienced in the four states I'd lived in previously. Here, the differences we wouldn't blink at where I grew up will be major bones of contention.

When it comes to things within the denomination, I'm probably more sensitive to it than many people, because I'm so involved in the theology and polity of it all.

[Lisa0315]

As for the question about how "Christian" America is an to what extent the theological divide amongst Christians is visible... Well, that varies a lot by region.

I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, in the least-churched part of the country. I imagine it was something like England, inasmuch as most people didn't go to church. That meant the religious dividing line wasn't between conservatives and liberals, but between Christians and non-Christians. It didn't matter so much what specific Christian label you wore -- we were all Christians together.

I now live in the Deep South, which is very different from where I grew up. In my town, it's pretty much assumed that everyone is a Christian, so the religious dividing lines tend to be between denominations and along liberal/conservative lines. It's actually been quite a culture shock for me here, because it's so very different from what I had experienced in the four states I'd lived in previously. Here, the differences we wouldn't blink at where I grew up will be major bones of contention.

When it comes to things within the denomination, I'm probably more sensitive to it than many people, because I'm so involved in the theology and polity of it all.

^_^ Welcome to the Bible Belt, Darlin'!

Lisa

[Izdaari]

Uh huh. I'm a Pacific Northwest person myself. As Macrina observed, we don't argue much about liberal vs. conservative here.

[JimfromOhio]

The denominations I have attended over the years were and still are conservative because I often stay away from Churches that practices Liberalism.

[Macrina]

The denominations I have attended over the years were and still are conservative because I often stay away from Churches that practices Liberalism.

Most denominations have some degree of variation within them, from region to region or from congregation to congregation. The mainlines more than the others (at least in the US, I don't know about other countries), but other denominations I know of have some sort of spectrum, too. What I'm looking for isn't so much whether your denomination is liberal or conservative, but more whether you are more liberal or more conservative than the average person in your denomination, and whether your congregation is more or less conservative than the average congregation in your denomination.

The reason I ask is that often we find ourselves in very different theological discussions, facing very different issues, depending on our context. I thought it might be interesting to learn more about each other's contexts.

:)

[JimfromOhio]

Most denominations have some degree of variation within them, from region to region or from congregation to congregation. The mainlines more than the others (at least in the US, I don't know about other countries), but other denominations I know of have some sort of spectrum, too. What I'm looking for isn't so much whether your denomination is liberal or conservative, but more whether you are more liberal or more conservative than the average person in your denomination, and whether your congregation is more or less conservative than the average congregation in your denomination.

The reason I ask is that often we find ourselves in very different theological discussions, facing very different issues, depending on our context. I thought it might be interesting to learn more about each other's contexts.

:)

Let's say, I am more conservative than my local church. :wave:

[Joykins]

I attend a conservative church (Christian and Missionary Alliance). which is a conservative evangelical denomination with the emphasis on evangelical. My church is probably typical of the denomination. For that church, I'm liberal. But that's in context to my church. For another denomination--say, United Methodist--I'd probably be considered fairly moderate.

In the US the line between theological and political liberalism is pretty blurred also and I'm politically liberal.

The reasons I consider myself liberal have to do more with my approach to scripture than any conclusion I draw from it.

[hazeleyes80]

I attend an SBC church. As a church (and, from what I gather, as a denomination as a whole), we tend to be quite conservative. I've been to SBC churches that are more liberal than the one that I attend, so I guess even in the denomination, we're on the conservative side.

[Aymn27]

I'm not sure things are all that much different in the US. My Pastor has told me that we have more missionaries sent to the US by other countries then any other nation. I've seen and heard all kinds of statistics and I think for the most part they are all off by a lot. For instance in a town of 5,000 people there are only enough seats in churchs for maybe 1000, and you can go to anyone of those churchs and hardly find them even half filled. I really don't consider us a Christian nation. WE were founded as a Christian nation but there is little left of that.

We prmote the killing of unborn babies and the elderly but want to reward those committ terrible crimes and let them off scott free after just a year or so in prison only committ those same crimes over again. :sigh: There is little left of a real justice system and now instead we now reward those who are unjust.

Our legislaters instead of working on the serious problems we have spend all their time (and the tax payers money) making laws to further oppress common people and make themselves yet more powerful. Big government and taking away the voice of the common people is what it is all about.

Thankfully we still have most of our religious freedom, but even that is diasppearing. We now have communities where there are large concentrations of Muslims and the local law makers are vastly favor giving them unconstutional rights while at the same time depriving Christians of theirs. Its a sinful world we live in and growing more so.
that is why you should vote for Ron Paul brother..libertarianism works!

[Izdaari]

What I'm looking for isn't so much whether your denomination is liberal or conservative, but more whether you are more liberal or more conservative than the average person in your denomination, and whether your congregation is more or less conservative than the average congregation in your denomination.
Alrighty. Well, as Assembly of God churches go, I suspect my congregation is more liberal than average, if only because it's in Seattle. AG churches in the deep South, where I first encountered them, were from my perspective extremely legalistic and Fundamentalist, and so I had no interest in them. Even though I was a young Christian then, I knew that was the wrong way to go, not at all what Jesus had in mind. (I'm totally Lutheran on the issue of grace vs. works.)

But as I was searching for a church in my area, I happened upon this one, and at first had no idea what denomination it was. Their affiliation isn't in the name or on the website, so I didn't find out until I'd already decided I liked the place. That was clever of them, and it worked. They're very friendly and welcoming, and they focus on things that strike me as just Christian and not so much liberal or conservative. I go to an evening youth-oriented service called Ignite, which has a "come as you are" dress code with praise & worship rock, kinda like Hillsong but I think the band rocks it a bit harder. The pastor doesn't do the TV Pentecostal style of preaching at all, but just teaches and does that very well, and every sermon I learn something significant I didn't already know, which was one of the main things I was looking for.

So my congregation is likely more liberal than the AG average... which is to say it's definitely Evangelical and Charismatic, but it doesn't feel at all Fundamentalist, unlike AG churches in the South, and I don't feel like I took a time warp back to the 1950's when I walk in. I had figured myself theologically for essentially a C.S. Lewis "Mere Christian", in denominational terms maybe a moderately conservative Episcopalian or Lutheran though I did already have charismatic leanings. So I'm probably more liberal than most of the congregation... which still leaves me pretty conservative compared to mainline churches. Also, mainline churches tend to be liberal politically, which tends to irk me since I'm a conservative libertarian.

[Macrina]

...But as I was searching for a church in my area, I happened upon this one, and at first had no idea what denomination it was. Their affiliation isn't in the name or on the website, so I didn't find out until I'd already decided I liked the place. That was clever of them, and it worked. ...


Some evangelical PC(USA) churches do the same thing -- downplay the denominational affiliation. Like your denomination, ours gets a reputation based on a certain subset, and some congregations have experimented with ways to shake off those connotations.

[Thankful75]

Within our PAOC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada) most of the churches are becoming very liberal. Our little church is more conservative then most.

[CyberPaladin]

I come very conservative church. And in some ways I'm a moderate compared to members of my Church mostly because I'm not willing to follow tradition like a lemming and actualy look into whether there is a scriptual basis for it.

[Macrina]

I come very conservative church. And in some ways I'm a moderate compared to members of my Church mostly because I'm not willing to follow tradition like a lemming and actualy look into whether there is a scriptual basis for it.

Ah, that's where the whole "conservative/liberal" issue gets tricky -- if the tradition you're in does something that lacks a solid scriptural foundation, then going towards scripture makes you a liberal? It gets a little tangled there, eh? :P

[porterross]

I suppose by LC-MS standards I would be considered moderate as I tend to be very conservative on many issues, more liberal than others on some. For instance, the tradition of our liturgy and worship music is very important to me as is the importance of Catechism and continued Biblical and doctrinal education for our young adults.

When it comes to taking the word of our pastor and synod as undisputed truth on certain Scriptural applications not necessary for salvation, I'm not likely to go along in silent acceptance nor will I allow them to be taught to my daughter, especially if it is in any way limiting another's service to God (for which we may have no way of understanding) or to judge them as less worthy than ourselves.

I don't get heartburn about the things I am not willing to embrace without question, but I am not shy about presenting an alternate perspective or unwillingness to accept either. :)

[WarriorAngel]

...or within your congregation, if your church is non-denominational...

Where are you on the conservative/liberal spectrum?

Is there a wide range of theological perspectives, or do most people of your denomination hold to basically the same positions?

If there are significant differences, how do you as a body work to maintain both unity and truth?

Just some questions to provoke thought... Basically, I hope you'll share a bit about your denomination/tradition and the place of conservatives therein.

My post to follow.

As a Catholic we are to uphold the Traditional teachings [ancient] that have not changed and we must submit fully to the Magisterium teachings of the Church upheld by our Prelates with whom we are told to obey. [scripture states]

We may not always understand the reasons, [although they can be found in the ancient teachings and writings of the early fathers] but we are to, above all other things, be obedient to the choosen men of God.

So we do not have a wide spectrum of various beliefs.
WE just have a wide spectrum of those who choose not to obey and believe. [Within the Church] which does not necessarily reflect the Church, just the certain ideas that some things can be picked and choosen to uphold by a minority who hold to their erroenous beliefs that they can or will change God's Traditions.

Just wanted to demostrate the differences with the Catholic Church. Yet I pray that those who in pride try to justify apostasy, whomsoever they may be...[Catholics for a free choice et al] that Grace may bring others and myself to sanctified humilty and obedience through the Holy Spirit, which leads to a better understanding of the doctrines.

Just my Church... and how I see conservative and liberal.
Thanks for asking. :wave:
EDIT to add; the Catholic Church is very conservative.

[CyberPaladin]

Ah, that's where the whole "conservative/liberal" issue gets tricky -- if the tradition you're in does something that lacks a solid scriptural foundation, then going towards scripture makes you a liberal? It gets a little tangled there, eh? :P
Alot of the stuff isn't even scriptiualy based one way or the other we are talking things look at the big picture carperting, firing our secratarty which had to be done and a buch of other stuff that really had no scripitual bearing.

[Macrina]

As a Catholic we are to uphold the Traditional teachings [ancient] that have not changed and we must submit fully to the Magisterium teachings of the Church upheld by our Prelates with whom we are told to obey. [scripture states]

We may not always understand the reasons, [although they can be found in the ancient teachings and writings of the early fathers] but we are to, above all other things, be obedient to the choosen men of God.

So we do not have a wide spectrum of various beliefs.
WE just have a wide spectrum of those who choose not to obey and believe. [Within the Church] which does not necessarily reflect the Church, just the certain ideas that some things can be picked and choosen to uphold by a minority who hold to their erroenous beliefs that they can or will change God's Traditions.

Just wanted to demostrate the differences with the Catholic Church. Yet I pray that those who in pride try to justify apostasy, whomsoever they may be...[Catholics for a free choice et al] that Grace may bring others and myself to sanctified humilty and obedience through the Holy Spirit, which leads to a better understanding of the doctrines.

Just my Church... and how I see conservative and liberal.
Thanks for asking. :wave:
EDIT to add; the Catholic Church is very conservative.

Although our denominations differ significantly in the role of tradition, there is one similarity: There are official beliefs, even if some vocal members choose not to believe the doctrine or to disregard the standards. So the average person in the pew might be on sort of a wide spectrum, but the church itself has a more precise teaching.

[Macrina]

Alot of the stuff isn't even scriptiualy based one way or the other we are talking things look at the big picture carperting, firing our secratarty which had to be done and a buch of other stuff that really had no scripitual bearing.

Ah, I see the kind of thing you mean. Sadly, I think that's the sort of stuff that causes most of the problems congregations experience. :sigh:

[twistedsketch]

I'm non-denominational. :P

I would have to guess that I'm more conservative than many when it comes to divorce and remarriage, and that I'm a little more liberal than most when it comes to tattoos and ultra-heavy music.

[Ishida]

Theologically my church is pretty conservative, we beleive the bible as the word of God and such. But really it's not spoken of much, since most people care more about whats important like the teachings of Jesus and loving each other and God. Well, I'd like to think that anyway. :(

[WarriorAngel]

Although our denominations differ significantly in the role of tradition, there is one similarity: There are official beliefs, even if some vocal members choose not to believe the doctrine or to disregard the standards. So the average person in the pew might be on sort of a wide spectrum, but the church itself has a more precise teaching.

As it should be.:thumbsup:
Obedience and love, but not blurring what love means.

[NewGuy101]

Very few people in my church actually aware of different theological positions. I go to a non-denom (atleast for now) even if I'm reformed and it's very conservative. My group of friends don't know what side to take or what is what I try to equip them as much as possible. I think it's sad how churches don't equip their members, not only can they not answer the hard questions the liberals ask but they don't know why they are a part of the church they are at.