Is the problem with Christianity and Messianic Judaism just a two school problem?

[Sephania]

Hear me out. someone ( think it was dvd-hlc ) posted something in a thread I had made about Shadows and Paul's teaching on them. visionary found a link ( thx Vis! :thumbsup:) and I read it and got to thinking. Let me just post what stems from the other thread first.

Making a Day Special
It was said of Shammai, the elder that all his days he would eat in order to honor Shabbat. If he would find a nice calf he would say, "This will be for Shabbat." If he found one that was nicer, he would set aside the second one and then eat the first one.

Hillel, however, behaved differently, for all his deeds were for the sake of heaven, as it is written, "Praised be God each day."
It was also recorded in later generations: The House of Shammai said: "Each day should be for Shabbat." The House of Hillel replied: "Praise be God everyday."In Acts 22 Saul/Paul declares his schooling in the house of Hillel under his grandson Gamaliel right after his arrest.

"Brothers and fathers! Listen to me as I make my defense before you now!" When they heard him speaking to them in Hebrew, they settled down more; so he continued: "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city and trained at the feet of Gamli'el in every detail of the Torah of our forefathers. I was a zealot for God, as all of you are today.


Hillel was Grandfather to Gamaliel so it makes sense he said this in the book of Romans 14:

1 Now as for a person whose trust is weak, welcome him - but not to get into arguments over opinions. 2 One person has the trust that will allow him to eat anything, while another whose trust is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him - 4 who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? It is before his own master that he will stand or fall; and the fact is that he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person considers some days more holy than others, while someone else regards them as being all alike. What is important is for each to be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes a day as special does so to honor the Lord. Also he who eats anything, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; likewise the abstainer abstains to honor the Lord, and he too gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives only in relation to himself, and none of us dies only in relation to himself; 8 for if we live, we live in relation to the Lord; and if we die, we die in relation to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord - 9 indeed, it was for this very reason that the Messiah died and came back to life, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You then, why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For all of us will stand before God's judgment seat; 11 since it is written in the Tanakh, "As I live, says ADONAI, every knee will bend before me, and every tongue will publicly acknowledge God." 12 So then, every one of us will have to give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore, let's stop passing judgment on each other! Instead, make this one judgment - not to put a stumbling block or a snare in a brother's way. 14 I know - that is, I have been persuaded by the Lord Yeshua the Messiah - that nothing is unclean in itself. But if a person considers something unclean, then for him it is unclean; 15 and if your brother is being upset by the food you eat, your life is no longer one of love. Do not, by your eating habits, destroy someone for whom the Messiah died! 16 Do not let what you know to be good, be spoken of as bad; 17 for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, shalom and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh. 18 Anyone who serves the Messiah in this fashion both pleases God and wins the approval of other people. 19 So then, let us pursue the things that make for shalom and mutual upbuilding. 20 Don't tear down God's work for the sake of food. True enough, all things are clean; but it is wrong for anybody by his eating to cause someone to fall away. 21 What is good is not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The belief you hold about such things, keep between yourself and God. Happy the person who is free of self-condemnation when he approves of something! 23 But the doubter comes under condemnation if he eats, because his action is not based on trust. And anything not based on trust is a sin.
Take a look at this here:

5 One person considers some days more holy than others,

The House of Shammai said: "Each day should be for Shabbat." while someone else regards them as being all alike. What is important is for each to be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes a day as special does so to honor the Lord.
The House of Hillel replied: "Praise be God everyday."Paul was teaching a two house way of life, a two house halakah! But is this in accordance with Yeshua's teaching, did he use the schools of Hillel and Shammai in his teachings?

Can both be right? are there two narrow paths? Or is there a path for gentiles and a path for Jews and they both lead to Messiah?

[Sephania]

Hmm, I was just checking out some links on Satan and found this:

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer"

In Hebrew it is spelt hey yod lamed lamed, Hillel

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Hmm, I was just checking out some links on Satan and found this:

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer"

In Hebrew it is spelt hey yod lamed lamed, Hillel
This is Hillel:

H1985
הלּל
hillêl
hil-layl'
From H1984; praising (namely God); Hillel, an Israelite: - Hillel.


This is the Modern Hebrew also:

http://www.milon.co.il/general/general.php?term=%D7%94%D7%9C%D6%BC%D7%9C

[MessianicJewishGuy]

The House of Shammai said: "Each day should be for Shabbat." The House of Hillel replied: "Praise be God everyday."

I don't see two houses of thought. Everyday is should be a praise day however the Sabbath is a day of rest.

[visionary]

Since every day... they counted "first day to the next sabbath" 'second day to the next sabbath" ... there was always a blessing towards the sabbath every day.

[mpossoff]

Can both be right? are there two narrow paths? Or is there a path for gentiles and a path for Jews and they both lead to Messiah?

This is a good question Z.

Because what's important is as I said in another thread:

Is Torah observance the path to Messiah? Or is the goal Messiah?

We as Messianics are sometimes guilty of saying(unquote): "If you don't follow the path of Torah observance, it's not the right path to Messiah" or "The only way to Messiah is if you keep Torah".

I think as Messianics we need to find a middle ground because there are so many that sway too far to the orthodoxy side and some sway too far to the unorthodoxy side.

What I've been trying to do is look at it in a 1st century perspective and how it can be applied today.

What I've seen so far in my walk is that there seems to be too much emphasis on evalangilizing Torah observance.

Today are we are seeking to put the Messiah back within His biblical and Jewish context?

A return to the faith as ALL the believers had in the first century, unencumbered by the traditions of men?

Is it a return to a pure and simple faith based upon having a living, vibrant and personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the Messiah Yeshua?

This is what the congregation I attend focus is. In the beginning of attending I wanted my congregation to preach and evangalize Torah observance. I wanted ‘leader’ to preach Torah as the main focus. I wanted orthodoxy. “I’m a Jew and since I’m a Jew let’s hear some orthodoxy”.

To me I have a much different view. Messianic Judaism isn’t orthodoxy. Because if it was it would ‘down play’ the fact that And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd

The Lord has changed my view in that regard.

So what's the answer to your question? I don't know.

Marc

[visionary]

Even if all the great teachers of every generation and all the folks that followed them gathered together, it would soon come apparent that the spirit that leads them would address today as a "moment by moment" event, and not use the rituals/formulas of yesterday as answers, and still show obedience to the Word of God by His Spirit.

[Wags]

I always thought that passage was refering to feast/fast days that are not specifically in the moedim.

Yeshua was asked why his disciples didn't fast on certain days - fasting on a weekly basis is not commanded in Torah, but it had become common place for the "pious" to do it. And of course there are a lot of Jewish "holidays.

So when Paul says some feast, and some fast in honor to the Lord, couldn't he have been referring to that common practice. And there were (at least) two schools of thought on which days to fast and which to feast.

[mpossoff]

Z,

Are Gentiles free to embrace Torah? Of course.

But do Gentiles have a covenant responsibility to keep Torah?

Two big differences.

Marc

[mpossoff]

I would like to also add that only because of Yeshua's sacrifice ALL have equal direct access to God through Yeshua.

As a Messianic I used to say to christians "God requires ALL to keep Torah and if you don't you are not on the right path to God"

Boy, and I thank the Spirit for convicting me, that's a false Gospel. The same false Gospel that Paul referred too.

Marc

[Henaynei]

Torah observance is not a path TO G-d, but rather the path of walking along side Him and holding His hand ....

[simchat_torah]

Specifically this passage in context deals with purchasing/eating meats on certain days. As Jews we are forbidden from associating with paganism. At the market during the turn of the millenium various meats were sold in the market that had been 'sacrificed' to pagan dieties earlier that day. On these days, Jews would avoid purchasing these meats in order to refrain from associating with these dieties.

Paul states later in Corinthians that these 'dieties' are nothing but wood and stone. Those who have stronger faith believe that there is only one true G-d, HaShem. Those with weaker faith believed that there were multiple dieties (these were new converts). Thus, in order not to associate with these other g-ds they would refrain from eating meat on these pagan high holy days.

Paul goes on then to say, those who have stronger faith know there are no other g-ds but HaShem, and thus eat meat freely (wine was also sacrificed to these g-ds, thus we see the mention of meats and wines). But in order to not cause others to stumble, one should refrain from eating these meats if their faith was weaker.

It really wasn't a discussion Shabbat. Instead, it was a discussion on pagan holy days and meats (also: wine) sold in the market on these days.

-Yafet

[simchat_torah]

Yeshua was asked why his disciples didn't fast on certain days - fasting on a weekly basis is not commanded in Torah, but it had become common place for the "pious" to do it. And of course there are a lot of Jewish "holidays.
That's actually not in paul's letters, but the christian gospels.

thus, the passages are unrelated.

fyi...

[Henaynei]

Specifically this passage in context deals with purchasing/eating meats on certain days. As Jews we are forbidden from associating with paganism. At the market during the turn of the millenium various meats were sold in the market that had been 'sacrificed' to pagan dieties earlier that day. On these days, Jews would avoid purchasing these meats in order to refrain from associating with these dieties.

Paul states later in Corinthians that these 'dieties' are nothing but wood and stone. Those who have stronger faith believe that there is only one true G-d, HaShem. Those with weaker faith believed that there were multiple dieties (these were new converts). Thus, in order not to associate with these other g-ds they would refrain from eating meat on these pagan high holy days.

Paul goes on then to say, those who have stronger faith know there are no other g-ds but HaShem, and thus eat meat freely (wine was also sacrificed to these g-ds, thus we see the mention of meats and wines). But in order to not cause others to stumble, one should refrain from eating these meats if their faith was weaker.

It really wasn't a discussion Shabbat. Instead, it was a discussion on pagan holy days and meats (also: wine) sold in the market on these days.

-Yafet well done! :thumbsup:

[mpossoff]

Torah observance is not a path TO G-d, but rather the path of walking along side Him and holding His hand ....

You’re missing the point.

The Torah is for all humanity but does it contain aspects that apply only to those who are part of the covenant community marked by conversion.

Did non Israelites always have access into it through faith?

Does the Torah distinguish between the requirements of the circ and uncirc and exempt the latter from many of it’s teachings?

Are non Israelites now incorporated into the people of God apart from conversion but they don’t come into full obligations of the Torah?

Do Jews and Gentiles share the same access to God through His Spirit and are one in Messiah?

The issue here is not conversion or relationship with God but the relationship of Jews and Gentiles to Torah.



Marc

[simchat_torah]

You’re missing the point.
I fail to see how she misses the point.

The Torah has specific laws for Gentiles, males, females, living in Israel vs. the Diaspora, etc.

Not every mitzvah applies in every situation.

[Henaynei]

I fail to see how she misses the point.

The Torah has specific laws for Gentiles, males, females, living in Israel vs. the Diaspora, etc.

Not every mitzvah applies in every situation.:thumbsup: , thank you :)

[mpossoff]

I fail to see how she misses the point.

The Torah has specific laws for Gentiles, males, females, living in Israel vs. the Diaspora, etc.

Not every mitzvah applies in every situation.

What I'm trying to say is somchat what I see today is an emphasis on Torah observance and that it's binding upon Gentiles in the same way as it is for those that are obligated to the covenant.

Marc

[simchat_torah]

What I'm trying to say is somchat what I see today is an emphasis on Torah observance and that it's binding upon Gentiles in the same way as it is for those that are obligated to the covenant.And the Torah defines for whom each set of mitzvot apply ;)

[Henaynei]

The emphasis is on returning to obeying G-d according to HIS standards and commandments in opposition to the "obeying G-d" as "led by the Spirit" or in those things "the Spirit tells me is sin," i.e. the tendency the has overtaken Christianity of defining "sin" themselves, as they are "led" or "convicted" rather than submitting to G-d's definition of sin and seeking to comply with HIS definition. (1John 3:4)

The Church has been taught a lie over the millenia - that lie being "Torah is a dry rock strewn path to death from which we have been freed to live in liberty" rather then the truth which it is a path of the Living and Deep relationship with the G-d of Creation, and that unto true and living freedom.

One is free, however, to choose which path they will follow.

As for me and my house, we will follow the L-rd (His way)."

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Wags]

The emphasis is on returning to obeying G-d according to HIS standards and commandments in opposition to the "obeying G-d" as "led by the Spirit" or in those things "the Spirit tells me is sin," i.e. the tendency the has overtaken Christianity of defining "sin" themselves, as they are "led" or "convicted" rather than submitting to G-d's definition of sin and seeking to comply with HIS definition. (1John 3:4)

The Church has been taught a lie over the millenia - that lie being "Torah is a dry rock strewn path to death from which we have been freed to live in liberty" rather then the truth which it is a path of the Living and Deep relationship with the G-d of Creation, and that unto true and living freedom.

One is free, however, to choose which path they will follow.

As for me and my house, we will follow the L-rd (His way)."

b'Shalom
Henaynei

:amen::amen::amen:

[Sephania]

I don't see two houses of thought. Everyday is should be a praise day however the Sabbath is a day of rest.

You don't see a difference between the house of Shammai and the house of Hillel on Shabbat?

[A_Pioneer]

I would like to also add that only because of Yeshua's sacrifice ALL have equal direct access to God through Yeshua.

As a Messianic I used to say to christians "God requires ALL to keep Torah and if you don't you are not on the right path to God"

Boy, and I thank the Spirit for convicting me, that's a false Gospel. The same false Gospel that Paul referred too.

Marc

Mt 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Lu 6:46 "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Your explaination, Please!

[visionary]

Our path to God must be Spirit lead not Torah driven

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Our path to God must be Spirit lead not Torah driven
True. The Torah and Gospel are only an inspired guide by Yeshua.