How many of us Conservative Christians believe in Capital Punishment?

[JimfromOhio]

Please do not debate since we already have a thread Here (http://www.christianforums.com/t5749632-capital-punishment.html&page=6)

[JimfromOhio]

Bump to get votes :)

[Gregged]

Sorry Jim, but none of the poll choices represent my position.

[nyj]

None of the poll choices represent my position either.

I think the United States is advanced enough that capital punishment need not be a considered option. It's not a deterrent, it is socially biased, and if we kill a single innocent individual the system is irretrievably broken IMO. So, I say let's not go there and instead give these criminals no reprieve. Lock them up for life in a cell. They get out when they die of natural causes.

[Lisa0315]

I cannot vote with these options. I know that God did not remove Capital Punishment, but that does not mean that we are forced to use it either.

Lisa

[Albion]

I cannot vote with these options. I know that God did not remove Capital Punishment, but that does not mean that we are forced to use it either.

Lisa

I kinda thought that too when reading the choices. But I voted yes in the belief that capital punishment is approved by scripture, period. We certainly are permitted to decide if it is to be rare or common, what methods of execution are to be used, for which crimes, and so on.

[Lisa0315]

I kinda thought that too when reading the choices. But I voted yes in the belief that capital punishment is approved by scripture, period. We certainly are permitted to decide if it is to be rare or common, what methods of execution are to be used, for which crimes, and so on.

Well, when you put it like that, it is more clear. I also voted yes, but I am opposed to capital punishment. It is indeed ordained in Scripture. However, it is also clear to me that much diligence, prayer, and absolute certainty of guilt should be had before an execution. (DNA evidence or confession)

Lisa

[tel0004]

I abstain. I agree with Lisa. I don't think God got rid of capital punishment, but I don't think its our responsibility to take somebodys life. Its also more expensive than life in prision, (b/c they can have unlimited appeals), and if you believe somebody who doesnt know Christ will spend forever in Hell, you should give them every second of their natural life to hear the gospel.

[Izdaari]

I cannot vote with these options. I know that God did not remove Capital Punishment, but that does not mean that we are forced to use it either.

Lisa
That's my position also, though I did vote: I voted the no opinion option. Capital punishment is scripturally allowed, but not required. It's a tool that scripture and Christian tradition permit the temporal authorities, when they determine it to be necessary. So beyond that point, it seems to be not a religious matter, but one of political philosophy, jurisprudence and social science.

My personal opinion is that it should be used, but only for the most heinous crimes and only when guilt is certain beyond not just a reasonable doubt but beyond any doubt at all.

[JimfromOhio]

Even if the Capital punishment is scripturally allowed, how is it not required, what kind of "reasoning" can this without any scriptural support?

As for the poll, down the road, there might be a "better phrases" poll regarding the Capital Punishment.

[Lisa0315]

Even if the Capital punishment is scripturally allowed, how is it not required, what kind of "reasoning" can this without any scriptural support?

As for the poll, down the road, there might be a "better phrases" poll regarding the Capital Punishment.

I think it is important that Jesus was an innocent man put to death by capital punishment. Even though, Pilate KNEW He was innocent, Pilate allowed His death for political reasons.

There is nothing in Scripture that forbids Capital Punishment. There is a lot in Scripture that would make one reluctant to use it.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

I think it is important that Jesus was an innocent man put to death by capital punishment. Even though, Pilate KNEW He was innocent, Pilate allowed His death for political reasons.

There is nothing in Scripture that forbids Capital Punishment. There is a lot in Scripture that would make one reluctant to use it.

Lisa

Pilate didn't make that decision, Jesus said so Himself inn John 19:9-11:

Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Jesus was not a victim of either Rome or the Jewish leaders. The apostle Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was "delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." God governs (controls) the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases.

[Lisa0315]

Pilate didn't make that decision, Jesus said so Himself inn John 19:9-11:

Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Jesus was not a victim of either Rome or the Jewish leaders. The apostle Peter says in Acts 2:23 that Jesus was "delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." God governs (controls) the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; He directs it like a watercourse wherever He pleases.

Well, of course, I understand that. However, we know this to be true, but Pilate did not. He knew Jesus was innocent, yet allowed His execution.

So, yes, Jesus laid down His life and no one took it. At the same time, the intent of the hearts on that day was murder.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Well, of course, I understand that. However, we know this to be true, but Pilate did not. He knew Jesus was innocent, yet allowed His execution.

So, yes, Jesus laid down His life and no one took it. At the same time, the intent of the hearts on that day was murder.

Lisa

Okay.. murder, by Pilate, Jews or God?

So, when Jesus said "Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." means that God murdered His own Son?

[Lisa0315]

Okay.. murder, by Pilate, Jews or God?

So, when Jesus said "Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." means that God murdered His own Son?

Jim,
This is standard doctrine. I know you know what I am talking about. Jesus is God and laid down His life. No one took it from Him. However, there are sins of commission and sins of the heart. In this case, the sin was in the hearts of both Pilate and the Jews.

Step away from the debate, Jim. You are arguing from a position that I know you do not believe in.

Let us reason together instead.

Lisa

[Gregged]

Even if the Capital punishment is scripturally allowed, how is it not required, what kind of "reasoning" can this without any scriptural support?

Jim, come on... I thought this was supposed to be a vote thread only with discussion in the main thread where these issues were discussed, rather than having to duplicate it all again in here.


As for the poll, down the road, there might be a "better phrases" poll regarding the Capital Punishment.

:sigh:

[Jim47]

Well, of course, I understand that. However, we know this to be true, but Pilate did not. He knew Jesus was innocent, yet allowed His execution.

So, yes, Jesus laid down His life and no one took it. At the same time, the intent of the hearts on that day was murder.

Lisa



But that is not capital punishment, that is murder. Big difference.

Also, I strongly disagree, there is no scripture stating to not use capital punishment, none at all.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,
This is standard doctrine. I know you know what I am talking about. Jesus is God and laid down His life. No one took it from Him. However, there are sins of commission and sins of the heart. In this case, the sin was in the hearts of both Pilate and the Jews.

Step away from the debate, Jim. You are arguing from a position that I know you do not believe in.

Let us reason together instead.

Lisa

I am not sure you understand what I believe in which is why I am not dropping this.

In my own life, I have learned as a Christian to answer like Joseph to his brothers who sold him into slavery, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” There are some who seem to look on the gloomy side and never able to do respond in faith to life's problems, instead, they grumble about the trials that we forget God's powerful grace.

Government are run by people whose hearts are corrupted. Yes, corrupted sins by the Jews and Pilate were "part of the plan" of God's. Satan may not be aware that God is taking advantage of Satan's plans. God knows everything before Satan even think up a plan. Satan may be powerful but not all knowing as God. God is ruling all things to work together for our good and His purpose. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." Remember, Jesus said in Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. If God can control with those two sparrows, then He will do the same for His human creatures as well.

On of my "Hall of Faith" heros is Corrie ten Boom because she has demonstrated "FAITH" in her life that she was "being sure of what she hope for, and certain of what she do not see" (See Hebrews 11:1). Ever read a story about Corrie ten Boom? If you didn't, I recommend it. She was a Christian (died in the 1980's) who suffered through Nazi concentration camps. Christians like her are happening ALL over the world every day. Corrie ten Boom was schedule to die in Nazi Camp like the rest of family did, but came out of Nazi prison alive due to clerical error through God's divine intervention. Through Corrie ten Boom's life, God was glorified through her ministry through many years until the day she died. Her ministry is still alive even though she is no longer with us physically but she is in heaven. There are people who believe that God is a God of love and grace, yet not of justice. She understood that God was in control, even if she did not understand why her family was suffering. It was HER faith in God's grace that she was able endure her pain. Like Corrie, we can place such faith in Him because of the assurance we have through His Word, even when we do not understand. Our true home and purpose is not here; it is still to come. We are not made for this world, we are just here to learn all we can, and with what Christ has given to us, make the best and most of the situations in which we find ourselves. Four (her parents and sister) Ten Booms gave their lives for this family’s commitment, but only Corrie came home from the death camp. She realized her life was a gift from God, and she needed to share what she and Betsy had learned in Ravensbruck: "There is no pit so deep that God’s love is not deeper still" and "God will give us the love to be able to forgive our enemies."


"God raises the level of the impossible." Corrie Ten Boom

Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." Corrie ten Boom

"Never be afraid to trust an unknown future to a known God." Corrie Ten Boom

There are no "if's" in God's world. And no places that are safer than other places. The center of His will is our only safety - O Corrie, let us pray that we may always know it! Corrie ten Boom, The Hiding Place (Betsie quoted on page 67)

[Lisa0315]

But that is not capital punishment, that is murder. Big difference.

Also, I strongly disagree, there is no scripture stating to not use capital punishment, none at all.


Hi Jim,
I voted for # 1 simply because I know Scripture allows for it, but then, Scripture also allows for divorce and slavery. Why? For the hardness of men's hearts.

All I am saying is that while Scripture may allow for CP, that does not mean we have to use it. If we are going to use it, it must be only in the most concrete cases. Evidence must be substantial leaving very little room for doubt. This would mean DNA evidence or a confession.

Even so, with DNA evidence and a confession, both, we may in some cases limit a lifespan in which God could work on the heart. We do not know that we don't. We don't know that we do.

Lisa

[MsAnne]

AAAAAAAnnnnnyyywayyy - back to the OP.
I couldn't really check any of the choices, but in a nutshell - I am not opposed to the death penalty. I believe in certain circumstances, it is absolutely appropriate

[Lisa0315]

I am not sure you understand what I believe in which is why I am not dropping this.

In my own life, I have learned as a Christian to answer like Joseph to his brothers who sold him into slavery, “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” There are some who seem to look on the gloomy side and never able to do respond in faith to life's problems, instead, they grumble about the trials that we forget God's powerful grace.

Government are run by people whose hearts are corrupted. Yes, corrupted sins by the Jews and Pilate were "part of the plan" of God's. Satan may not be aware that God is taking advantage of Satan's plans. God knows everything before Satan even think up a plan. Satan may be powerful but not all knowing as God. God is ruling all things to work together for our good and His purpose. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." Remember, Jesus said in Matthew 10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. If God can control with those two sparrows, then He will do the same for His human creatures as well.

On of my "Hall of Faith" heros is Corrie ten Boom because she has demonstrated "FAITH" in her life that she was "being sure of what she hope for, and certain of what she do not see" (See Hebrews 11:1). Ever read a story about Corrie ten Boom? If you didn't, I recommend it. She was a Christian (died in the 1980's) who suffered through Nazi concentration camps. Christians like her are happening ALL over the world every day. Corrie ten Boom was schedule to die in Nazi Camp like the rest of family did, but came out of Nazi prison alive due to clerical error through God's divine intervention. Through Corrie ten Boom's life, God was glorified through her ministry through many years until the day she died. Her ministry is still alive even though she is no longer with us physically but she is in heaven. There are people who believe that God is a God of love and grace, yet not of justice. She understood that God was in control, even if she did not understand why her family was suffering. It was HER faith in God's grace that she was able endure her pain. Like Corrie, we can place such faith in Him because of the assurance we have through His Word, even when we do not understand. Our true home and purpose is not here; it is still to come. We are not made for this world, we are just here to learn all we can, and with what Christ has given to us, make the best and most of the situations in which we find ourselves. Four (her parents and sister) Ten Booms gave their lives for this family’s commitment, but only Corrie came home from the death camp. She realized her life was a gift from God, and she needed to share what she and Betsy had learned in Ravensbruck: "There is no pit so deep that God’s love is not deeper still" and "God will give us the love to be able to forgive our enemies."


"God raises the level of the impossible." Corrie Ten Boom

Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." Corrie ten Boom

"Never be afraid to trust an unknown future to a known God." Corrie Ten Boom

There are no "if's" in God's world. And no places that are safer than other places. The center of His will is our only safety - O Corrie, let us pray that we may always know it! Corrie ten Boom, The Hiding Place (Betsie quoted on page 67)

Well, first, we are friends, and we will remain friends despite our disagreement on this.

Still, you used a strawman in your last argument and I called you on it. You posed Jesus as murdered by God and we both know Scripturally that it is untrue. It was not well done of you.

Now, you bring to life a Christian woman who was also wrongly sentenced to die, and somehow this is an argument FOR CP. I don't get it.

The only argument for CP is Scripture, and on that, you and I agree. It is allowed. As I said in my last post to Jim47, CP is allowed just as divorce and slavery is allowed in Scripture. Are you proposing that I should support slavery then?

These things are in Scripture and are CONTROLLED by Scripture not because they were ordained by God from the beginning, but because of the hardness of men's hearts.

God permits. That does not always mean God intends.

Lisa

[Gregged]

I am not sure you understand what I believe in which is why I am not dropping this.

I understand exactly what you're talking about Jim and can condense it to the following. Tell me if I'm wrong.

You are saying that the death penalty was introduced by God and that government, even no longer under God, should still use the death penalty because ultimately God is in control of everything. If someone dies because of an offence (or from being falsely accused), then God has written that already. It's not really the government putting that person to death, but God who directs the government, ultimately for His plans and purposes to be fulfilled.

Right?

[JimfromOhio]

I understand exactly what you're talking about Jim and can condense it to the following. Tell me if I'm wrong.

You are saying that the death penalty was introduced by God and that government, even no longer under God, should still use the death penalty because ultimately God is in control of everything. If someone dies because of an offence (or from being falsely accused), then God has written that already. It's not really the government putting that person to death, but God who directs the government, ultimately for His plans and purposes to be fulfilled.

Right?

Yes.. that's it. That's my main belief and my faith in God's grace. :thumbsup:

[JimfromOhio]

Well, first, we are friends, and we will remain friends despite our disagreement on this.

Still, you used a strawman in your last argument and I called you on it. You posed Jesus as murdered by God and we both know Scripturally that it is untrue. It was not well done of you.

Now, you bring to life a Christian woman who was also wrongly sentenced to die, and somehow this is an argument FOR CP. I don't get it.

The only argument for CP is Scripture, and on that, you and I agree. It is allowed. As I said in my last post to Jim47, CP is allowed just as divorce and slavery is allowed in Scripture. Are you proposing that I should support slavery then?

These things are in Scripture and are CONTROLLED by Scripture not because they were ordained by God from the beginning, but because of the hardness of men's hearts.

God permits. That does not always mean God intends.

Lisa

You are still my friend, sister !! :thumbsup: Its not strawman but rather biblical as the Holy Spirit convicted my heart.

I just want you to understand my beliefs. God control's man's heart.......Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Another good example is Pharaoh. Satan have been using Pharaoh to persecute Jewish people for years.

In Exodus 9:16 "But I (God) have raised you (Pharaoh) up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' "
Paul confirmed this in Romans 9:17

[Lisa0315]

You are still my friend, sister !! :thumbsup: Its not strawman but rather biblical as the Holy Spirit convicted my heart.

I just want you to understand my beliefs. God control's man's heart.......Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Another good example is Pharaoh. Satan have been using Pharaoh to persecute Jewish people for years. In Exodus 9:16 "But I (God) have raised you (Pharaoh) up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

"For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' "
Paul confirmed this in Romans 9:17

Yes, and I understand that. However, in context of divorce and slavery, I believe CP falls within the same line of thought. God has a perfect will and God has a provisional will. Because of the hardness of our hearts, God has to use His provisional will. So, yes, He directs our steps, He will use evil to bring good. That does not mean that we should abuse grace by doing evil simply because we know God will ultimately bring good out of it.

Lisa

[Gregged]

Yes.. that's it. That's my main belief and my faith in God's grace. :thumbsup:


You see!!! I am listening :D :hug:


Now that I've got that right.... this discussion really changes into something completely different!

Do you believe everything is already planned and written? We know that God sees all and that nothing would "be news" to God. I've heard of Christian testimony where people who have become Christians have miraculously been removed from death row - and released - to go on to preach the Gospel. So we know God can release those should He so desire.

But do you believe everything is written? If so, why does God say things like "I was grieved I ever made man" and "O that they would seek me," and there being wicked kings but then a good king etc? God also says that they committed sins (e.g. child sacrifice) which never even entered His mind.

So, do you believe it's all planned? Or do you believe that evil can "have it's day" and that evil can be done (e.g. putting someone to death wrongfully), which God does NOT desire EVEN THOUGH he can turn it all around for His glory?

If it's all planned, what use is prayer. Why are we told to pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven?"

This is an age old question so am not expecting the answer. Just your view. I think this is your view anyway...

[JimfromOhio]

That does not mean that we should abuse grace by doing evil simply because we know God will ultimately bring good out of it.

Lisa

Yes,Christians can work with non-Christians (& government) in attempting to promote proper justice and civic peace because it is good for all people, not just Christians (Galatians 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:15).

We have to keep in mind, we don't have the power nor the influence without God's help. As long as God is in control and has a plan, there is NOTHING we can do about it. The bad events are circumscribed by a loving providence and God promises to use them all for His ultimate good for HIS GLORY. There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to me that I am not able to bear it. God does everything--He governs everything. In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says, "My thoughts are completely different from yours, and my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." God is adjusting our history to His purposes. He knows what He's doing. I have to learn to trust His will, His power to do His will, and His timing to do it when the time is right--and not until then. That's the essence of real faith. God carries out His will in His perfect power and timing.

[Lisa0315]

Yes,Christians can work with non-Christians (& government) in attempting to promote proper justice and civic peace because it is good for all people, not just Christians (Galatians 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:15).

We have to keep in mind, we don't have the power nor the influence without God's help. As long as God is in control and has a plan, there is NOTHING we can do about it. The bad events are circumscribed by a loving providence and God promises to use them all for His ultimate good for HIS GLORY. There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to me that I am not able to bear it. God does everything--He governs everything. In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says, "My thoughts are completely different from yours, and my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts." God is adjusting our history to His purposes. He knows what He's doing. I have to learn to trust His will, His power to do His will, and His timing to do it when the time is right--and not until then. That's the essence of real faith. God carries out His will in His perfect power and timing.

Questions for you on this:

If slavery is condoned in the Bible and ultimately resulted in good out of evil, why do we not still have slavery today?

How does freewill play into God's perfect power and timing?

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

You see!!! I am listening :D :hug:


Now that I've got that right.... this discussion really changes into something completely different!

Do you believe everything is already planned and written? We know that God sees all and that nothing would "be news" to God. I've heard of Christian testimony where people who have become Christians have miraculously been removed from death row - and released - to go on to preach the Gospel. So we know God can release those should He so desire.

But do you believe everything is written? If so, why does God say things like "I was grieved I ever made man" and "O that they would seek me," and there being wicked kings but then a good king etc? God also says that they committed sins (e.g. child sacrifice) which never even entered His mind.

So, do you believe it's all planned? Or do you believe that evil can "have it's day" and that evil can be done (e.g. putting someone to death wrongfully), which God does NOT desire EVEN THOUGH he can turn it all around for His glory?

If it's all planned, what use is prayer. Why are we told to pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven?"

This is an age old question so am not expecting the answer. Just your view. I think this is your view anyway...

We have to remember, it is so RARE that God change His mind. One thing we have to remember is that prayer basically means “transferring my “will” to God’s will”. God may be witholding what I ask in order to do special work that He have placed me according to His plan and will (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). God's answers are wiser than our prayers.

[JimfromOhio]

Questions for you on this:

If slavery is condoned in the Bible and ultimately resulted in good out of evil, why do we not still have slavery today?

How does freewill play into God's perfect power and timing?

Lisa

Reading Ecclesiastes is a huge reminder that "Life is NOT fair". God's chosen people were forced into slavery by evil which God allowed. Slavery is wrong from a "human point of view". I am sure God do not like slavery however He never forbid slavery in the Word of God. The Bible have alot of positive and negative attributes of "Slavery". We were slaves to sin as Jesus said in John 8:34 "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." Paul wrote in Romans 7:14 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." (Romans 6:20: When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.) And now we are slaves to God (Romans 6:22: But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.) Its amazing how we can "picture" slavery and we can see how bad slavery can be in negative (sin) and how good slavey can be in positive (Christ).

It is very interesting that Scriptures never "forbid" slavery. God want us to understand what "slavery" really means. God also have rules how Masters should treat their slaves. God rescued people from slavery.

The Scriptures mentioned 13 times to remind people that God:

Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 5:6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Submission to Slave-Owner: 1 Timothy 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Slave Owners to respect their slaves: Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Example of Christians freedom from slave of sin: Galatians 4:3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world.

Galatians 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Philemon 1:16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord.

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

Slave-Trader is a "sin": 1 Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

We are God's slaves: 1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

[Lisa0315]

Reading Ecclesiastes is a huge reminder that "Life is NOT fair". God's chosen people were forced into slavery by evil which God allowed. Slavery is wrong from a "human point of view". I am sure God do not like slavery however He never forbid slavery in the Word of God. The Bible have alot of positive and negative attributes of "Slavery". We were slaves to sin as Jesus said in John 8:34 "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." Paul wrote in Romans 7:14 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." (Romans 6:20: When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.) And now we are slaves to God (Romans 6:22: But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.) Its amazing how we can "picture" slavery and we can see how bad slavery can be in negative (sin) and how good slavey can be in positive (Christ).

It is very interesting that Scriptures never "forbid" slavery. God want us to understand what "slavery" really means. God also have rules how Masters should treat their slaves. God rescued people from slavery.

The Scriptures mentioned 13 times to remind people that God:

Exodus 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Deuteronomy 5:6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Submission to Slave-Owner: 1 Timothy 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Slave Owners to respect their slaves: Ephesians 6:9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.

Example of Christians freedom from slave of sin: Galatians 4:3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world.

Galatians 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Philemon 1:16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord.

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

Slave-Trader is a "sin": 1 Timothy 1:9-11 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

We are God's slaves: 1 Corinthians 9:19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.

Romans 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

I am very familiar with those verses, Jim. However, I still do not have an answer for my question. Even though Scripture condones slavery, why have we banned slavery today?

Second, what about freewill? How does freewill play into God's plan?

Lisa

[Gregged]

We have to remember, it is so RARE that God change His mind. One thing we have to remember is that prayer basically means “transferring my “will” to God’s will”. God may be witholding what I ask in order to do special work that He have placed me according to His plan and will (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). God's answers are wiser than our prayers.


...but could you answer my questions though! :)

Prayer is much more than that. Prayer is a spritual weapon. We live in a world where we must pray because we are battling the unseen forces of evil. And we must keep praying for God's will to be done. This is very clear too with Daniel. His prayer was answered the first day. If he had stopped praying because no answer had come, would the angel have succeeded against the prince of Persia? We also are effective in prayer when we pray according to His will. So His wisdom is in those prayers.

If there is no power in prayer because everything is written already, then prayer is unnecessary. But we are commanded to pray!

Looking forward to the answers to my previous questions :)

[Gregged]

Good night. God bless :) :wave:

[Lisa0315]

Good night. God bless :) :wave:

G'night! :wave:

Lisa

[MrJim]

I am very familiar with those verses, Jim. However, I still do not have an answer for my question. Even though Scripture condones slavery, why have we banned slavery today?

Second, what about freewill? How does freewill play into God's plan?

Lisa

^_^ asking a calvinist about freewill:D

[JimfromOhio]

I am very familiar with those verses, Jim. However, I still do not have an answer for my question. Even though Scripture condones slavery, why have we banned slavery today?

Second, what about freewill? How does freewill play into God's plan?

Lisa

Biblically, God didn't permit slavery however, He allowed slavery to happen. That's a huge difference. In the Bible, God set up the Capital Punishment and has not removed it. Therefore, we Christians, with God's grace and power, through Abraham Lincoln, abolished slavery. One of the reasons I am a "Republican" is because the very first Republican President was Abraham Lincoln who opposed the slavery. Biblically, Jesus didn't try to overthrow slavery; neither did Paul; neither did any of the Old Testament. Through slavery, we learned more about God. Slavery was a part of life in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament. Through the Scriptures, the Apostles used slavery as an example for spiritual instruction on how to act like that we "belong" to Jesus Christ and serves Him as a slave. This time, more dignified and elevated and exalted one who serves.

[MrJim]

I would have to vote yes in this poll, though I'm no particular fan of capital punishment.

I am not particular fan of taxes either, but well...:D

[Lisa0315]

^_^ asking a calvinist about freewill:D

Tattletale! :P

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

...but could you answer my questions though! :)

Prayer is much more than that. Prayer is a spritual weapon. We live in a world where we must pray because we are battling the unseen forces of evil. And we must keep praying for God's will to be done. This is very clear too with Daniel. His prayer was answered the first day. If he had stopped praying because no answer had come, would the angel have succeeded against the prince of Persia? We also are effective in prayer when we pray according to His will. So His wisdom is in those prayers.

If there is no power in prayer because everything is written already, then prayer is unnecessary. But we are commanded to pray!

Looking forward to the answers to my previous questions :)

Okay...let me being with Corrie ten Boom's quote "Is prayer your steering wheel or your spare tire?"

Christians who knows God are the best are the richest and most powerful in prayer. I learned from Bounds that prayer is the battle that it makes no difference where I am simply because God engineers my circumstances, and it is our duty is to pray. God is supposed to CHANGE US, not the world FOR US. It is the Holy Spirit's conviction that God’s design for me is to be radically TRANSFORMED by the renewing of my mind. (Romans 12:2).

Let me laid out what I have in my journal regarding "prayer".

I should ask God for help. Psalm 40:13
God will not hear my prayers if I am willfully sinning. Micah 3:4
Prayer should be private. Matthew 6:6
Jesus taught me how to pray. Matthew 6:9-13
I should pray with an attitude of humility. Luke 18:9-14
I should pray in Jesus' name. John 16:23-24
I should pray all the time. Ephesians 6:18
I should pray without doubting. James 4:3
I should pray with the right motives. James 4:3
I should pray according to God's will 1 John 5:14-15
Romans 12:12 - Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.

I asked for love.................God gave me situations I have encountered so I can learn to love Him and others around me.

I asked for strength...........God gave me difficulties which gave me strengths to handle my life.

I asked for wisdom...........God gave me problems to learn to solve with Godly wisdom.

I asked for prosperity.......God gave me a brain and a talent to work so I can make good money (which I do).

I asked for courage..........God gave me dangers to learn to overcome my situations.

I asked for healing (I have MS and am deaf)............God gave me directions so I can help others with love who are in the same situations as I am.

I asked for guidance........God gave me opportunities to use to direct my paths.

[Lisa0315]

Biblically, God didn't permit slavery however, He allowed slavery to happen. That's a huge difference. In the Bible, God set up the Capital Punishment and has not removed it. Therefore, we Christians, with God's grace and power, through Abraham Lincoln, abolished slavery. One of the reasons I am a "Republican" is because the very first Republican President was Abraham Lincoln who opposed the slavery. Biblically, Jesus didn't try to overthrow slavery; neither did Paul; neither did any of the Old Testament. Through slavery, we learned more about God. Slavery was a part of life in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament. Through the Scriptures, the Apostles used slavery as an example for spiritual instruction on how to act like that we "belong" to Jesus Christ and serves Him as a slave. This time, more dignified and elevated and exalted one who serves.

Jim,
God did not set up capital punishment no more than He set up slavery. Both laws, no, all three, divorce, slavery, and capital punishment were set up to control what man had already invented for themselves. I have done an extensive study on this due to my chats with the atheists. Try explaining how a loving God can order men, women, children, and even animals to be killed. Slavery, CP, and divorce are easy in comparison.

BTW, if anyone is interested, the explanation of how God can order a nation down to every living creature killed can be found under The Laws of Warfare in Deuteronomy 20.

To continue, slavery was mentioned for the first time by Noah who cursed one of his sons with slavery. Not an invention of God. We were created free. We chose to sin and chose bondage. Slavery to each other was just a natural result of sin.

Divorce was written into the law as Jesus said due to the hardness of men's hearts. It was not so from the beginning. God's perfect will is that a husband love his wife as Christ loves the church.

Capital Punishment, I will have to look up the earliest occurance of that, but I do know that very early in Genesis, we are told that a man who hangs on a tree is cursed. God does not curse people lightly. Indeed, one can read that this is even condemnation of hanging a man on a tree as punishment.

Further, we know that God did not kill Adam and Eve for their sin, not immediately anyway, nor was Cain put to death for his capital crime.

Captial Punishment as found in the law is decreed and ordained to CONTROL the use. It is a warning against vigilantism. In fact, there are provisions in which the charged may escape to various safe spots in the land of Israel to avoid Capital Punishment.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

I would have to vote yes in this poll, though I'm no particular fan of capital punishment.

I am not particular fan of taxes either, but well...:D

As an "Anabaptist" in me, personally, I am against death penalty, biblically (reformed or Calvinist), I support the death penalty.;)

I am not a fan of taxes either but Christ said we are to pay our taxes. :P

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,
God did not set up capital punishment no more than He set up slavery. Both laws, no, all three, divorce, slavery, and capital punishment were set up to control what man had already invented for themselves. I have done an extensive study on this due to my chats with the atheists. Try explaining how a loving God can order men, women, children, and even animals to be killed. Slavery, CP, and divorce are easy in comparison.

BTW, if anyone is interested, the explanation of how God can order a nation down to every living creature killed can be found under The Laws of Warfare in Deuteronomy 20.

To continue, slavery was mentioned for the first time by Noah who cursed one of his sons with slavery. Not an invention of God. We were created free. We chose to sin and chose bondage. Slavery to each other was just a natural result of sin.

Divorce was written into the law as Jesus said due to the hardness of men's hearts. It was not so from the beginning. God's perfect will is that a husband love his wife as Christ loves the church.

Capital Punishment, I will have to look up the earliest occurance of that, but I do know that very early in Genesis, we are told that a man who hangs on a tree is cursed. God does not curse people lightly. Indeed, one can read that this is even condemnation of hanging a man on a tree as punishment.

Further, we know that God did not kill Adam and Eve for their sin, not immediately anyway, nor was Cain put to death for his capital crime.

Captial Punishment as found in the law is decreed and ordained to CONTROL the use. It is a warning against vigilantism. In fact, there are provisions in which the charged may escape to various safe spots in the land of Israel to avoid Capital Punishment.

Lisa

This is God's law on Capital Punishment many years after Abel and Cain. In Genesis 9:6: “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made He man.” Because of the sanctity of man, because he is created in the image of God, God instituted a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc. Murder is a crime against God in whose image man is made—it defiles God—so capital punishment is required. God instituted capital punishment. Therefore, ONLY GOD can remove the capital punishment. In the Old Testament laws are discussed into three general categories: moral, ceremonial, and civil. Civil and Moral laws have not been touched by Christ because there is no need to change because they are considered timeless, eternal, and universal, based on God's own character. Christ came to FULFILL the law, not destroy the law. Moral laws are God's laws for His followers while Civil laws are for His followers that Governments are ordained by Him. One of the example of the Civil law is Judges and jurors selected by human criteria, rather than by God's standards. (See Exodus 18:21-22).

Regarding slavery, I find nothing from God that allows us to have slaves but God simply allows corrupted sinners to have slavery.

Regarding divorce, God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16). Divorce in the Scripture is permitted as an accommodation to man's sin for the protection of the innocent party. In Matthew 19:5-9, Christ taught that divorce is an accommodation to man's sin and is in violation of God's purpose for the intimate unity of the marriage bond (see Gen. 2:24).

Biblically, grounds for divorce are
(1) fornication (any sinful sexual activity, including adultery--unfaithfulness of a marriage partner)

(2) a nonbelieving partner who initiates the divorce due to incompatibility with a Christian.

I am divorced because of BOTH (my ex had affairs and not a believer).

[mont974x4]

The only issue I have is it takes to long and denies people the right to swift justice.


It isn't supposed to be a detereant, it's punishment and it is just. If I didn't beleive it to be just then I would have a real problem with God.

[Albion]

As Jim pointed out, there are exceptions to the no divorce policy and they are explicit. Capital punishment is spoken of as just, even if we may hold out that it is not required. But slavery is never described in scripture as just in itself, merely as existing.

[Mary of Bethany]

I didn't vote, because I'm not quite sure. I do believe that God has given our governing authorities the right/responsibility to use the death penalty for the safety and peace of their citizens.

However, I could never, as as Christian, sentence someone to a death penalty. It is wrong for me to decide to take someone else's life, no matter the circumstance. And as a couple of other posters mentioned, we should not cut short the time for sinners to repent.

Mary

[Hishandmaiden]

I am in a hesitation with regard to this question.
I think laws have the purpose of detering criminals from commiting the same crime, again. Therefore, laws can help to protect the majority of the good citizens in a country from the harm of the minority who chooses to do bad things.

On the other hand, I believe in forgiving criminals and giving them a second chance in life. If I can have my way, I will vote Yes for unrepentant criminal and NO for criminals, who, in the process, of their jail terms, reflect a GENUINE repentance for their crime and sins, and GENUINELY turn over a new leaf.

In the end, I guess I just leave it to my government to decide. And pray and work through whatever system my government comes up with.

[LutheranChick]

I voted yes because I believe that Capital Punishment is Scriptural. "Ordained by God' may be a bit strong - I believe that the Bible give the government the Authority to administer capital punishment, but God does not command governments that it be done.

[mont974x4]

Although He did command it in the OT.

[Albion]

I didn't vote, because I'm not quite sure. I do believe that God has given our governing authorities the right/responsibility to use the death penalty for the safety and peace of their citizens.

However, I could never, as as Christian, sentence someone to a death penalty. It is wrong for me to decide to take someone else's life, no matter the circumstance. And as a couple of other posters mentioned, we should not cut short the time for sinners to repent.

Mary

I think I feel as you and handmaiden do, but I see the question only as authorizing capital punishment, not that it has to be used. I personally would reserve it for only the most serious crimes such as serial murder.

BTW, you notice that most of those who oppose the death penalty actually feel the same. They say it is barbaric, etc. and shouldn't be allowed, but when Timothy McVeigh was executed, there were no candlelight vigils, people writing to the governor protesting the death penalty, and the usual outpouring when some more sympathetic criminal (such as Karla Faye Tucker) is executed.

[LutheranChick]

I didn't vote, because I'm not quite sure. I do believe that God has given our governing authorities the right/responsibility to use the death penalty for the safety and peace of their citizens.

However, I could never, as as Christian, sentence someone to a death penalty. It is wrong for me to decide to take someone else's life, no matter the circumstance. And as a couple of other posters mentioned, we should not cut short the time for sinners to repent.

Mary
(in reference to your last sentence): However, people do spend a long time on death row before they are acually executed. Many years, in fact. It's not like they are sentenced one day and executed the next. I believe that God gives everyone plenty of time to repent of their sins and be saved. Even if they are on death row, they still can be saved. I don't mean to debate, but I just wanted to point that out. So, just curious - do you believe that if a judge is a Christian, he should not sentence someone to death? Even if he/she is acting on behalf of the government?

[nyj]

Although He did command it in the OT.
Genesis 4:13-15
Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me." Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him.

[JimfromOhio]

Genesis 4:13-15
Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me." Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him.


About 5 chapters later in Genesis 9:6: “Whoso ever sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made He man.” In the New Testament, Matthew 26:52 and Acts 25:11, the sword means kill. The "Sword" was not used to spank someone, but to kill them. Jesus was referring sword as "shall perish with the sword." Perish means death.

Romans 13:4
In KJV: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

[nyj]

Did God contradict Himself?

[JimfromOhio]

Did God contradict Himself?

In Chapter 4, the Government was not formed (yet). People keep forgetting the difference between that individual cannot kill but government can. :sigh:

God did not want to establish personal retribution, personal vengeance, as a means of dealing with criminals. God says: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." God is the avenger. God places that vengeance in the hands of a duly constituted government, court. But no personal vengeance like Rambo or of that sort.

[mont974x4]

There is a diference between and individual commiting murder and the state, with authority given by God, doing its duty to protect it's citizens and administer justice.

[Brennin]

I am of two minds on the subject. Some crimes are so heinous that I want to see the perpetrators executed. However, I also recognize that innocent people are sometimes convicted and there is the possibility of redemption for the guilty.

[mont974x4]

Spiritual redemption does not free us from the earthly consequences of our actions.

[Iosias]

Yes Capital Punishment is God's ordained and has not changed.

[Iosias]

Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Miss Shelby]

I am of the frame of mind that if Paul would have been rightfully executed for his crimes, we would not have the Bible as we know it today. I believe repentance and redeption should be held in higher regard than vengeance, which belongs to the Lord.

[Iosias]

I believe repentance and redeption should be held in higher regard than vengeance, which belongs to the Lord.

Romans 13:1-4 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

[Miss Shelby]

I certainly don't think the American government is in anyway God ordained. They allow for the slaughter of millions of innocent children for crying out loud. They have forsaken God, therefore they have no God ordained power. Woe to us for letting the government forsake the Lord, to that end.

[mont974x4]

Miss Shelby, even if we disagreee with them or if they are in fact evil, they are still in place because of God. The Romans 13 passsage points to this. We also have the OT examples of Saul and David.

God is always in control, even when we don't understand why He chooses to do some things.

[Mary of Bethany]

(in reference to your last sentence): However, people do spend a long time on death row before they are acually executed. Many years, in fact. It's not like they are sentenced one day and executed the next. I believe that God gives everyone plenty of time to repent of their sins and be saved. Even if they are on death row, they still can be saved. I don't mean to debate, but I just wanted to point that out. So, just curious - do you believe that if a judge is a Christian, he should not sentence someone to death? Even if he/she is acting on behalf of the government?

No - he/she should follow the laws of the land, and in accord with his/her own conscience.

And I understand that we are all given the "right" amount of time to repent - it's just that I don't feel I can make that decision.

Mary

[JimfromOhio]

Checking... see you next week after I get internet connection at my new place.

[MrJim]

Miss Shelby, even if we disagreee with them or if they are in fact evil, they are still in place because of God. The Romans 13 passsage points to this. We also have the OT examples of Saul and David.

God is always in control, even when we don't understand why He chooses to do some things.

Yeah, it's a mysterious thing, 'cause that means God ordained critters like Nero, Hitler, & Bill Clinton;)

[mont974x4]

Yeah, I've been scratching my head on the Clintons co-presidency thing for years. LOL


I don't know what I'll think/do if God places Hillary in the whitehouse....again.

[MrJim]

Yeah, I've been scratching my head on the Clintons co-presidency thing for years. LOL


I don't know what I'll think/do if God places Hillary in the whitehouse....again.

:D :D :D :D

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't believe in it. Life isn't ours to take; particularly if someone isn't saved. We condemn them to hell in that case. Life should mean life, and they should be given a chance to repent and get to know their Saviour. We have no right to remove that possibility for them.

[Miss Shelby]

I don't believe in it. Life isn't ours to take; particularly if someone isn't saved. We condemn them to hell in that case. Life should mean life, and they should be given a chance to repent and get to know their Saviour. We have no right to remove that possibility for them.
True, and I particularly resent the sentiment that IF they are on death row they have more of a chance to repent. To me this says we win souls by killing people.

[mizangelwolf]

I do.

[GreenMunchkin]

True, and I particularly resent the sentiment that IF they are on death row they have more of a chance to repent. To me this says we win souls by killing people.Like we're scaring them into it, almost. Am in total agreement with you, lady.

[PaladinGirl]

I believe in capital punishment but only for serious offenders such as traitors, terrorists, and child sexual offenders.