Authoritative Explanation of the Trinity.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

This is from John Of Damascus:

[from the end of On Heresies] [Saint John of Damascus, Writings, Tr. F.H. Chase, The Fathers of the Church, Catholic University, 1958. p. 161-3.]
We believe in Father and Son and Holy Ghost;
one Godhead in three hypostases;
one will, one operation, alike in three persons;
wisdom incorporeal, uncreated, immortal, incomprehensible,
without beginning, unmoved, unaffected, without quantity,
without quality, ineffable, immutable, unchangeable, uncontained,
equal in glory, equal in power, equal in majesty, equal in might, equal in nature,
exceedingly substantial, exceedingly good,
thrice radiant, thrice bright, thrice brilliant.

Light is the Father, Light the Son, Light the Holy Ghost;
Wisdom the Father, Wisdom the Son, Wisdom the Holy Ghost;
one God and not three Gods;
one Lord the Holy Trinity discovered in three hypostases.

Father is the Father, and unbegotten;
Son is the Son, begotten and not unbegotten, for He is from the Father;
Holy Ghost, not begotten but proceeding, for He is from the Father.

There is nothing created, nothing of the first and second order, nothing lord and servant;
but there is unity and trinity
- there was, there is, and there shall be forever -
which is perceived and adored by faith -
by faith, not by inquiry, nor by searching out, nor by visible manifestation;
for the more He is sought out, the more He is unknown, and the more He is investigated, the more He is hidden.

And so, let the faithful adore God with a mind that is not overcurious. And believe that He is God in three hypostases, although the manner in which He is so is beyond manner, for God is incomprehensible. Do not ask how the Trinity is Trinity, for the Trinity is inscrutable.

But, if you are curious about God, first tell me of yourself and the things that pertain to you. How does your soul have existence? How is your mind set in motion? How do you produce your mental concepts? How is it that you are both mortal and immortal? But, if you are ignorant of these things which are within you, then why do you not shudder at the thought of investigating the sublime things of heaven?

Think of the Father as a spring of life begetting the Son like a river and the Holy Ghost like a sea, for the spring and the river and sea are all one nature.

Think of the Father as a root, and of the Son as a branch, and the Spirit as a fruit, for the substance in these three is one.

The Father is a sun with the Son as rays and the Holy Ghost as heat.

The Holy Trinity transcends by far every similitude and figure. So, when you hear of an offspring of the Father, do not think of a corporeal offspring. And when you hear that there is a Word, do not suppose Him to be a corporeal word. And when you hear of the Spirit of God, do not think of wind and breath. Rather, hold you persuasion with a simple faith alone. For the concept of the Creator is arrived at by analogy from His creatures.

Be persuaded, moreover, that the incarnate dispensation of the Son of God was begotten ineffably without seed of the blessed Virgin, believing Him to be without confusion and without change both God and man, who for your sake worked all the dispensation. And to Him by good works give worship and adoration, and venerate and revere the most holy Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary as true Mother of God, and all the saints as His attendants.

Doing thus, you will be a right worshiper of the holy and undivided Trinity, Father and Son and Holy Ghost, of the one Godhead, to whom be glory and honor and adoration forever and ever. Amen

[simchat_torah]

authoritative, eh?

Curious... who's authority?

[MessianicJewishGuy]

authoritative, eh?

Curious... who's authority?
John Of Damascus was an Medieval Historian that studied the Judaic, Islamic and Christian religion immensely. He even recorded the massacres the Muslims and Crusaders committed in great detail. He also committed much time to the Hebrew, Greek and Latin manuscripts of the Bible and realized that Yeshua did fulfill prophecies and such. He is recognized by major secular sources and a number of Catholic and Protestant sources.

Therefore he was explain the Triunity of G-d almighty which he even said is beyond human comprehension but he gives us an idea of it.

[nasa1]

authoritative, eh?

Curious... who\\\'s authority?



Exactly. By the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?

Today the L-rd really spoke to me a great example of the Ruach. I was watching a star wars movie, and Obi Wan Kenobi obviously gives up his life to go into a spirit form, so that he can more useful to Luke Skywalker. From then on, we can hear the voice of Obi Won speaking to Luke, guiding him where ever he goes. Obi Won is much more useful to Luke as a spirit than a physical human being.

The L-rd brought to my remembrance that He said it was better for all of us if He went away, otherwise the Spirit would not come to us. Why? Paul says in 2nd Corthinians 3:17 that Yeshua is the Spirit. In the flesh, Yeshua can only be in one place, helping and guiding those who are physically close to Him; in Spirit form, He can be inside all of us, and guide as all.

The L-rd also reminded me last night that our spirits can feel emotions - but just because they can feel emotions does not mean that we should percive them as another person. I believe this is the mistake of the Trininty - it turns the Spirit into another person. Yes, the Spirit can be grieved, as any person can - but that does not mean that the Spirit is another person apart from G-d

nasa1

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Exactly. By the authority of the Roman Catholic Church?

Today the L-rd really spoke to me a great example of the Ruach. I was watching a star wars movie, and Obi Wan Kenobi obviously gives up his life to go into a spirit form, so that he can more useful to Luke Skywalker. From then on, we can hear the voice of Obi Won speaking to Luke, guiding him

The L-rd brought to my remembrance that He said it was better for all of us if He went away, otherwise the Spirit would not come to us. Why? Paul says in 2nd Corthinians 3:17 that Yeshua is the Spirit. In the flesh, Yeshua can only be in one place, helping and guiding those who are physically close to Him; in Spirit form, He can be inside all of us, and guide as all.

The L-rd also reminded me last night that our spirits can feel emotions - but just because they can feel emotions does not mean that we should percive them as another person. I believe this is the mistake of the Trininty - it turns the Spirit into another person. Yes, the Spirit can be grieved, as any person can - but that does not mean that the Spirit is another person apart from G-d

nasa1
Actually this Theology you speak of in non-scriptual. This scripture:

Matthew 3:15-17 (King James Version)


15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.



The Spirit of G-d came upon Jesus Christ which means that you see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus you have part of John Of Damascus's authority.

[nasa1]

I think the Bible teaches that Yeshua and the Father are One. The Ruach belongs to G-d. I believe Yeshua is G-d, divine, sharing that divinty with the Father. However, I do not believe Yeshua was divine on earth - I think the Bible teaches that He emptied Himself of His divinity to partake in flesh and blood, like you and me.

So the Ruach is the Spirit of G-d, and when Yeshua was baptised, G-d sent His Spirit symbolically in the form of a dove. The dove represents peace. But the Spirit is not an animal by any means. I do not see at all how the baptism of Yeshua creates a Trinity theory.

nasa1

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I think the Bible teaches that Yeshua and the Father are One. The Ruach belongs to G-d. I believe Yeshua is G-d, divine, sharing that divinty with the Father. However, I do not believe Yeshua was divine on earth - I think the Bible teaches that He emptied Himself of His divinity to partake in flesh and blood, like you and me.

So the Ruach is the Spirit of G-d, and when Yeshua was baptised, G-d sent His Spirit symbolically in the form of a dove. The dove represents peace. But the Spirit is not an animal by any means. I do not see at all how the baptism of Yeshua creates a Trinity theory.

nasa1
You are also missing something else:

Acts 5 (King James Version); About the Holy Spirit

1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
21And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
22But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned and told,
23Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
24Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow.
25Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
26Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
27And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

[muffler dragon]

Actually this Theology you speak of in non-scriptual.

If you want to give nasa a hard time about "non-scriptural" considerations; then be prepared for the "non-scriptural" discussion regarding the trinity in the Tanakh. If you want to engage in that; then let's have at it. Otherwise, I suggest you understand that there are Christians of all sorts who view the Christian testament through BOTH trinitarian and non-trinitarian glasses.

When you quote a source that implies as you said, "is beyond human comprehension"; then you're leaving yourself open for the fact that the "truth" is even more subjective and personal. No particular person is right nor wrong. That's why I always gave more kudos to the Christians who call the trinity a mystery than I do the ones who think they can make their stand be above someone else's.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

If you want to give nasa a hard time about "non-scriptural" considerations; then be prepared for the "non-scriptural" discussion regarding the trinity in the Tanakh. If you want to engage in that; then let's have at it. Otherwise, I suggest you understand that there are Christians of all sorts who view the Christian testament through BOTH trinitarian and non-trinitarian glasses.

When you quote a source that implies as you said, "is beyond human comprehension"; then you're leaving yourself open for the fact that the "truth" is even more subjective and personal. No particular person is right nor wrong. That's why I always gave more kudos to the Christians who call the trinity a mystery than I do the ones who think they can make their stand be above someone else's.
If you actually read the writing that I posted I think that was said:

"And so, let the faithful adore God with a mind that is not overcurious. And believe that He is God in three hypostases, although the manner in which He is so is beyond manner, for God is incomprehensible. Do not ask how the Trinity is Trinity, for the Trinity is inscrutable. "

What that lady was saying is that the Holy Spirit is not G-d also. That in fact is a lie. Act 5 specifically shows the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of G-d.

So there is nothing that I said that is non-scripture.

[muffler dragon]

If you actually read the writing that I posted I think that was said:

"And so, let the faithful adore God with a mind that is not overcurious. And believe that He is God in three hypostases, although the manner in which He is so is beyond manner, for God is incomprehensible. Do not ask how the Trinity is Trinity, for the Trinity is inscrutable. "

This is what I was quoting:

Therefore he was explain the Triunity of G-d almighty which he even said is beyond human comprehension but he gives us an idea of it.

*emphasis mine.

What that lady was saying is that the Holy Spirit is not G-d also. That in fact is a lie. Act 5 specifically shows the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of G-d.

nasa didn't say anything of the sort. She said that she doesn't believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. This, fyi, is a very Judaic concept.

So there is nothing that I said that is non-scripture.

The trinity is a non-Tanakh, non-Judaic concept.

[Bananna]

I think the Bible teaches that Yeshua and the Father are One. The Ruach belongs to G-d. I believe Yeshua is G-d, divine, sharing that divinty with the Father. However, I do not believe Yeshua was divine on earth - I think the Bible teaches that He emptied Himself of His divinity to partake in flesh and blood, like you and me.

So the Ruach is the Spirit of G-d, and when Yeshua was baptised, G-d sent His Spirit symbolically in the form of a dove. The dove represents peace. But the Spirit is not an animal by any means. I do not see at all how the baptism of Yeshua creates a Trinity theory.

nasa1
Me Neither.
I don't get where they keep applying heresy to different understandings of the same concept either. Heresy seems to be in the eyes of the beholder.

bananna

[simchat_torah]

John Of Damascus was an Medieval Historian that studied the Judaic, Islamic and Christian religion immensely. He even recorded the massacres the Muslims and Crusaders committed in great detail. *emphasis mine*

If he was any type of a scholar he would have known that there was a plethera of trinitarian and non-trinitarian views regarding G-d during the first 5 centuries. In fact, if he was a thorough historian he would have known that the view of G-d as a trinity was in the vast minority in the earlier centuries. The trinity was even considered a minority view during Constantine's era, but began to gain ground during those years.

I'm not arguing pro or con trinity. That's not my intent. I am merely stating the an historian would show forth all sides, not professing an opinion to doctrine...
as opposed to a theologian who would proclaim a particular creed.

Historians aren't "authorities" on doctrine, but rather history. A theologian is an authority on doctrine.

fyi...