Faith and Certainty

[Protinus]

What is the price of certainty and how it relates to faith formation in our lives??

I am not a theologian…I love our Church despite what others have said on this website, but I think that she is worthy of scrutiny and inquiry as to her relationship in our lives as Christians. She nonetheless has endured much and she has helped us by being a pillar of strength.

We have all heard the “God loves us unconditionally”. But we continually hear about the conditions of belief, our “state of belief” or behavior before God so that He will receive us. We see traditional Christianity trying to reconcile the “unconditional” with the “conditional” aspects of divine love all the time. There are patterns in the Bible and teachings in the Church that state the “unconditional aspects” of this love- that God is prepared to offer it without exception in a relationship with us.

However, at the same time, God’s acceptance of our response is measured- God’s unconditional love becomes only operative as a relationship of acceptance after we have fulfilled certain conditions that are set up in the Bible and Church teachings.

Let’s just say it- this is God’s conditional love offer. The Church says that God’s love is unconditional on one hand but yet it constantly sets up conditions for the proper encounter with God and prescribes the conditions for acceptance within its fold.

Let’s face it…its intimidating. The threat of condemnation and/or rejection gives rise to great anxiety in fearful Christians…new Catholics who are faith forming, “fallen Catholics” and on. We admire those that are so assured of salvation, knowing that there is complacency when there are absolutely “no doubts”. Surely Catholics need more confidence ...we all do, in our beliefs…to become better Christians, no?

But that is not the nature of Faith. We trust in God to feel the confidence we need…a confidence that is very different from certainty that so many Catholics seek. I would say that faith is trust in God in the face of our ignorance of God: Heb 11:1 : Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

So… it is the very trust “in not knowing” that we come to our understanding of God. The quest for certain knowledge is one of the surest ways to destroy Christianity…Catholicism, Catholic faith. The Church colludes with and encourages the quest for certainty, betraying the foundations of Christian understanding and the gospel itself.

[Loki]

"Why have you come back to trouble us?"

[Loki]

And now for a proper response.

1. I think this question is near the omnipotent/omnibenevolent problem; not loving all, or loving all and being unable to alter one's own rules.

2. How much can we really know and understand? i'm going to get in trouble for this point, but humans minds are finite, God isn't. How much can we really claim to know and understand about God? I view all of human knowledge as approximations based on axioms taken on faith.

[Protinus]

And now for a proper response.

1. I think this question is near the omnipotent/omnibenevolent problem; not loving all, or loving all and being unable to alter one's own rules.

2. How much can we really know and understand? i'm going to get in trouble for this point, but humans minds are finite, God isn't. How much can we really claim to know and understand about God? I view all of human knowledge as approximations based on axioms taken on faith.


wonderful distilling Loki!!!:thumbsup:

[PostTribber]

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." .... as it is written, "the just shall live by faith." and for a certainty, "God is not a man that He should lie." :amen:

[Loki]

I think, that one of the unfortunate consequences of my second point is that it eliminates Papal infallibility, unless of course God allows a statement to be made infallibly, but how would we know it's really infallible? It stands the test of time? The church may think in centuries, but this does little to help the humans it serves, with lifetimes often well under the centenary mark. Or is God really bound by what the Church has said in this regard? Again, eliminating a form of omnipotence.

Sorry I can't offer any words of assurance about anything.

[JasonV]

Prot,

Great post. As you have pointed out, placing any condition on God's love nullifies his unconditional love. So does God really love us unconditionally? And if so, then is His Church wrong when placing conditions on that love? What does that mean for us who believe in the Church?

My particular denomination places no such restrictions on God's love. The Sacraments are not looked upon as necessary for salvation, but rather as spiritual blessings we can receive if we want them.

Quite a different paradigm all things considered. One that places me in a better position to receive God's infinite love perhaps?

[longhair75]

Friend Protinus,

I would recommend a book: The Return of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen as a great explanation of God's unconditional love. This in depth look at the parable with which we are all familiar will answer some of your questions, and maybe raise some more and answer them too.

[Loki]

So… it is the very trust “in not knowing” that we come to our understanding of God. The quest for certain knowledge is one of the surest ways to destroy Christianity…Catholicism, Catholic faith. The Church colludes with and encourages the quest for certainty, betraying the foundations of Christian understanding and the gospel itself.

The freedom left to us when Jesus rejected the three temptations is almost too much to bear. It's terrible in a way, and many are eager to give it up for certainty; feed us, give us someone to follow, give us miracles, even if it means our freedom. The Grand Inquisitor (http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/existentialism/dostoevsky/grand.html) should be required reading for humanity, imo.

[CaDan]

The freedom left to us when Jesus rejected the three temptations is almost too much to bear. It's terrible in a way, and many are eager to give it up for certainty; feed us, give us someone to follow, give us miracles, even if it means our freedom. The Grand Inquisitor (http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/philosophy/existentialism/dostoevsky/grand.html) should be required reading for humanity, imo.

True dat. Double true.

"Why have you returned to trouble us?"

[Loki]

"Why have you returned to trouble us?"

*poke* already posted that ;)

[Loki]

Cause I'm in a whimsical mood and posting quotes:

Habe nun, ach! Philosophie,
Juristerei und Medizin,
Und leider auch Theologie
Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn.
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor;
Heiße Magister, heiße Doktor gar
Und ziehe schon an die zehen Jahr
Herauf, herab und quer und krumm
Meine Schüler an der Nase herum-
Und sehe, daß wir nichts wissen können!

I HAVE, alas! Philosophy,
Medicine, Jurisprudence too,
And to my cost Theology,
With ardent labour, studied through.
And here I stand, with all my lore,
Poor fool, no wiser than before.
Magister, doctor styled, indeed,
Already these ten years I lead,
Up, down, across, and to and fro,
My pupils by the nose,--and learn,
That we in truth can nothing know!

JWvGoethe, Faust (part I).

We study so much, read so much, proclaim so much, but how much do we really know?

[JasonV]

We study so much, read so much, proclaim so much, but how much do we really know?

If we realized just how little we really know, and knew just how impossible it was to know half of what we think we know, we'd all give up and just watch TV.

[Victrixa]

The Sacraments are not looked upon as necessary for salvation, but rather as spiritual blessings we can receive if we want them.

That sounds like Lutheranism... the Sacraments are seen, not as a means of salvation but as ordinances to confer grace to the faithful so that by partaking of them, will enable them to grow stronger in Christ (rather than seek salvation by Him through the Sacraments). See the difference?

I find this view more Biblically and doctrinally correct....

[JasonV]

That sounds like Lutheranism... the Sacraments are seen, not as a means of salvation but as ordinances to confer grace to the faithful so that by partaking of them, will enable them to grow stronger in Christ (rather than seek salvation by Him through the Sacraments). See the difference?

I find this view more Biblically and doctrinally correct....

That is interesting Victrixia. Which "branch" of Lutheranism matches this?

[Victrixa]

That is interesting Victrixia. Which "branch" of Lutheranism matches this?

Actually, as far as I know, this is "basic" Lutheranism...

[boughtwithaprice]

If we realized just how little we really know, and knew just how impossible it was to know half of what we think we know, we'd all give up and just watch TV.
How about instead of watching TV and making the world better for ourselves, why don't we give up our damn fool idealistic crusades and just try to make the world a better place for eachother:sorry: :P

I know that I am a bleeding idiot as far as knowledge goes, but just maybe I can brighten someone else's day, just maybe

[Protinus]

How about instead of watching TV and making the world better for ourselves, why don't we give up our damn fool idealistic crusades and just try to make the world a better place for eachother:sorry: :P


blessed brother...we seek to exclude, though we offer our Lord's unconditional offering. We want to have stasis in face of change in the world around, yet we wonder why these things happen.:doh:

We need to profess Christ's love as it was written and professed...but without "conditions", as given by the Pharisetetic writings to enact it.

[Cat59]

Reading what you wrote. Prot, reminded me of a passage that I once found very helpful in summarising my own thoughts. Certainty was rarely a part of my faith journey, I sort of just gave up questioning and just did, or danced, as Sidney Carter liked to put it...until the last few months.

"My Jesus is surrounded by a question mark.
Lack of conclusive proof concerning what he did or said is an essential element of what he is.
What kind of proof can I expect?
Round the lips of pre-classical, archaic staues of the gods and goddesses of ancient Greece hovers a playful smile: ironical and yet serene. There, I find an answer to my question.

"The question you ask is not the right one. The proof you seek is not the kind of proof that matters.
Back your hunch and take your chances, that is how the game is played.
You are part of creation, so create.
To create, you have to play.
You ask for dead certainties; all we offer is living possibilities.
Sulk and you will get no pity.
So take up your fate, your cross (if you prefer to call it that) and use it to create."
The Jesus that I choose is one who takes up the challenge
"You are right" he says "that is how the game is played."
So I create.
I show the song I hear, the dance I feel.
That is what I choose and I back it with my life."

Dance in the dark- Sidney Carter
I do not believe anymore, but I still try to creatively dance on in this life, even though I have no certainties left at all.

[QuantaCura]

Certainty comes when you can completely trust your Heavenly Father not to give you scorpions (to borrow from today's Gospel a bit). Faith is that unconditional surrender to God's love. It is that complete trust in Him that all He has told us is for our ultimate good. We do not say to Him, "this is unpleasant for me" or "this is unreasonable" or "this is not compassionate" or things similar to that. We understand that God, who knows all and will not deceive, and who only desires our ultimate good, will not command us to do something that is harmful or prohibit us from something unless it does us harm.

Some may say that God's love is conditional because He reveals that there is right and wrong, truth and error, and that it is possible to be excluded from that ultimate good He leads us to. But this is not God being conditional with His love, but rather it is us being conditional with ours. We want God's love to be how we think it should be, rather than the perfect love He knows it to be. We exclude ourselves, when we refuse to partake of God's love as He gives it, but rather only how we want it.

He offers us His love no matter what--even if we don't like it. Sometimes we are like children, scowling when our parents give us vegetables instead of candy, or sulking when they punish us when we do wrong. But when we mature, we see this was love at its most unconditional--given even when the beloved doesn't like it.

God offers us His love no matter what, but will we accept it no matter what, trusting with absolute certainty that it is for our best? Or will we reject it for a false love we think is better than what He offers? Will we return that true love to Him no matter what? And will we share it with others no matter what, even if they do not like it or us because of it? And will we share without any expectation of ever receiving some in return?

[Fantine]

Not being a theologian, this is how I have come to terms with that dichotomy in my own mind.

God loves us unconditionally. God is everywhere.

But, just as Adam and Eve hid from God in the garden of Eden because they were naked and ashamed, so we, when we are in a state of sin, feel unworthy of God's love and hide from Him.

I look at Purgatory as God's love shining down on the soul that perceives itself as unworthy, gradually warming it and giving it the confidence to come into God's light.

A soul that feels it is so unworthy it is beyond redemption condemns itself to hell. This is a hard concept for me to internalize, because I think God's love could permeate even the stubborness of one who deems himself permanently unworthy....

[QuantaCura]

That's a good point. Being in the state of grace is essentially being united in love to God and our brothers and sisters. When we commit mortal sin, we are removing ourselves from that unity of love. But, God will always welcome us back to partake of His love again if only we surrender to it and accept it. :)

[boughtwithaprice]

Not being a theologian, this is how I have come to terms with that dichotomy in my own mind.

God loves us unconditionally. God is everywhere.

But, just as Adam and Eve hid from God in the garden of Eden because they were naked and ashamed, so we, when we are in a state of sin, feel unworthy of God's love and hide from Him.

I look at Purgatory as God's love shining down on the soul that perceives itself as unworthy, gradually warming it and giving it the confidence to come into God's light.

A soul that feels it is so unworthy it is beyond redemption condemns itself to hell. This is a hard concept for me to internalize, because I think God's love could permeate even the stubborness of one who deems himself permanently unworthy....
That reminds me of the description of hell that was told to me about Dante's inferno. The deepest pit of hell is not the hottest furnace. Where Satan is, it is the coldest ice formed from the tears of his invincible despair. A despair so black and cold, it is devoid of all hope of ever seeking redemption. In there, there is no faith, no hope, no love.

[boughtwithaprice]

Certainty comes when you can completely trust your Heavenly Father not to give you scorpions (to borrow from today's Gospel a bit). Faith is that unconditional surrender to God's love. It is that complete trust in Him that all He has told us is for our ultimate good. We do not say to Him, "this is unpleasant for me" or "this is unreasonable" or "this is not compassionate" or things similar to that. We understand that God, who knows all and will not deceive, and who only desires our ultimate good, will not command us to do something that is harmful or prohibit us from something unless it does us harm.

Some may say that God's love is conditional because He reveals that there is right and wrong, truth and error, and that it is possible to be excluded from that ultimate good He leads us to. But this is not God being conditional with His love, but rather it is us being conditional with ours. We want God's love to be how we think it should be, rather than the perfect love He knows it to be. We exclude ourselves, when we refuse to partake of God's love as He gives it, but rather only how we want it.

He offers us His love no matter what--even if we don't like it. Sometimes we are like children, scowling when our parents give us vegetables instead of candy, or sulking when they punish us when we do wrong. But when we mature, we see this was love at its most unconditional--given even when the beloved doesn't like it.

God offers us His love no matter what, but will we accept it no matter what, trusting with absolute certainty that it is for our best? Or will we reject it for a false love we think is better than what He offers? Will we return that true love to Him no matter what? And will we share it with others no matter what, even if they do not like it or us because of it? And will we share without any expectation of ever receiving some in return?


What you speak of is not certainty, but faith.


Hebrews 11

1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2. For by it the men of old gained approval.
3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.



The question of the thread is about whether we can have certainty and faith at the same time, not if we feel certain about our faith or not. What exactly is certainty? The people that built the Titanic where certain that it was unsinkable. "They said, God Himself could not sink this ship!" And then we all know what happened. The only things that we can be certain about are the past. I tell my patients when they ask me if they are going to make it through surgery, nothing in life is certain. I can give you a 99.999997% chance that you will wake up from this surgery, but I can't give you 100% until you are awake in the recovery room and the surgery is over.
We can have faith that God loves us, but we cannot be certain until we meet Him face to face. There is a certainty in faith, but it is not absolute certainty.
The lack of absolute certainty, is not to give us cause to doubt God or have unbelief, rather it is to control the sin against hope; that is presumption, the other sin against hope being despair.

sorry for rambling but these thoughts just came to me when you spoke of certainty in your post

[Protinus]

Certainty comes when you can completely trust your Heavenly Father not to give you scorpions (to borrow from today's Gospel a bit). Faith is that unconditional surrender to God's love. It is that complete trust in Him that all He has told us is for our ultimate good. We do not say to Him, "this is unpleasant for me" or "this is unreasonable" or "this is not compassionate" or things similar to that. We understand that God, who knows all and will not deceive, and who only desires our ultimate good, will not command us to do something that is harmful or prohibit us from something unless it does us harm.

Some may say that God's love is conditional because He reveals that there is right and wrong, truth and error, and that it is possible to be excluded from that ultimate good He leads us to. But this is not God being conditional with His love, but rather it is us being conditional with ours. We want God's love to be how we think it should be, rather than the perfect love He knows it to be. We exclude ourselves, when we refuse to partake of God's love as He gives it, but rather only how we want it.

He offers us His love no matter what--even if we don't like it. Sometimes we are like children, scowling when our parents give us vegetables instead of candy, or sulking when they punish us when we do wrong. But when we mature, we see this was love at its most unconditional--given even when the beloved doesn't like it.

God offers us His love no matter what, but will we accept it no matter what, trusting with absolute certainty that it is for our best? Or will we reject it for a false love we think is better than what He offers? Will we return that true love to Him no matter what? And will we share it with others no matter what, even if they do not like it or us because of it? And will we share without any expectation of ever receiving some in return?


I think we agree about faith but , as boughtwithaprice alludes, you missed the "boat" about certitude. And the father that gives his son a scorpion or snake instead of love or commitment....surely this is not reflective of God's love and it involves "trust" as you mention.

However there is an illusory unsinkable ship in the Church- it is not called Titantic, it is called Certainty and it is not forged around a trust in God. It is more difficult to understand the teachings of the Church, much less discuss them, as they are constructed as a scaffolding to avoid perplexing problems- a bid to discern the "truth", not to imbue trust in God. The absolute stranglehold that the Church has on ecclesiastical matters seeks to retrain debate, not that there "is any debate". Is this not an attempt to create "certainty in the truth?? These "truths" are created to maintain ideological closure and to impose the Church's own conclusions in tendentious matters...all with the idea of insuring Certainty.

It is confusing that the Church has taught both throughout the ages that God is ultimately unknowable (we agree on this as per our statements about faith) but that also its own teachings are certain because they are based on God's revelation to our Lord. Will you not accept this contradiction? We cannot at the same time be ultimately unknowing and ignorant of God AND possess a revelation of Him about whose interpretation we can be certain. We can't have it both ways.

I think the Church needs to take a stand on uncertainty and return to the ancient theologic Christian writers and their insight. They understood that we can not adequately express the mystery of God. They understood that we all have apprehensions about God, but to codify these apprehensions in the form of teachings and statements is to put up obstacles in knowing God- that is if we take them to be accurate and "guaranteed:" representations of divine truth. In essence, knowledge of God is experimental...not conceptual or codified.

[Loki]

That reminds me of the description of hell that was told to me about Dante's inferno. The deepest pit of hell is not the hottest furnace. Where Satan is, it is the coldest ice formed from the tears of his invincible despair. A despair so black and cold, it is devoid of all hope of ever seeking redemption. In there, there is no faith, no hope, no love.

I thought it was Cocytus frozen over because of the flapping of his wings.

[boughtwithaprice]

I thought it was Cocytus frozen over because of the flapping of his wings.
it could have been, as I have only second hand information, but the concept sounded cool:sorry:

ah yes: here is the explanation from wikipedia:eek:


Main article: The Divine Comedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy)
In Inferno, the first cantica of Dante (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri)'s The Divine Comedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy), Cocytus is the ninth and lowest circle of Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell). Cocytus is referred to as a frozen lake rather than a river, although it originates from the same source as the other infernal rivers. The lake is frozen by the flapping wings of Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer), or Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan); his tears replenish the lake, and are then frozen by his attempts to escape via the wings. Dante describes it as being the home of traitors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitor) and those who committed acts of complex fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud). It is divided into four descending "rounds," or sections:

[Loki]

ah yes: here is the explanation from wikipedia:eek:

The lake is frozen by the flapping wings of Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer), or Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan); his tears replenish the lake, and are then frozen by his attempts to escape via the wings.

A little from column A, a little from B.

And where would modern civilization be without wikipedia?

Perhaps Cocytus is the river that drains out of Inferno to Purgatorio.

Dante is cleansed with the waters of Cocytus (river of forgetfulness) which is fed by tears of contrition, which allows him to proceed from Hell to Purgatory. Beautiful, ain't it? ;)