the closed thread on "True" Orthodoxy

[jckstraw72]

hey i just wanted to say that i think its pretty lame that we have a rule that doesnt allow Michael to state his views -- like it or not, Ecumenism, the calendar, the schism churches, are issues in the modern Orthodox world and we should be allowed to talk about them.

[MishaM]

My friend,

While I agree with your point I can also see the thought behind those that do not want to cause discord among the brethren. I have lived within the "walls" of the TOC movement and while I am in no way condoning them and their views (I hold a few of the more traditional practices) it is hard enough for me to deal with the demons of my past and try to stay away.

I think that the real issue here is not one of the Calendar or of Ecumenism, I think the main issue here is that we do not live out the examples pof those that come before us. As others have said there are others who lived among us in the times when all of these things were coming about but they did not allow it to hamper their Faith and Praxis.

We can only do the best that we can do with the situations we have.
There are alternatives to schism. Nothing is perfect but neither are we. I dunno if there is a point ot what I am saying here, it's just that this thread (as well as its originator) have laid heavy on me since I saw it.

Been there... done that....

[jckstraw72]

i agree that to schism is wrong, but i dont think we should close threads about it.

[Matrona]

Should we close them when one is trying to entice others to schism?

[SeraphimSarov]

I think it's necessary to take a hard-line stance here. Schismatic churches aren't Orthodox churches, close as they may be outwardly. Maybe a subforum would be appropriate for those belonging to and who wish to discuss such churches, but to discuss it here as if these churches were canonically Orthodox is a mistake, in my opinion.

Edit: sorry if I seem harsh, but this issue has been hitting pretty hard to close to home lately....

[Oblio]

Or those who wish to pontificate on 'World Orthodoxy' can go post over on the 'Schismatics are Us' forum.

[MishaM]

It is also a matter of the fact that when they are allowed to be discussed openly and without some sort of check and balance that these conversations often become very unOrthodox, let alone unChristian. There are fora out there that let one side be heard over the other and we can see the response. Thongs get very heated and very harsh.

As one trying to teach my wife the TRUTHS of Orthodoxy these forums are places THE LAST PLACES I would say were safe for her in her fragile state. Even for me these places are not good because they lead to the occasion of sin when I question the unity of the Church....

[Greg the byzantine]

Let's close this one too :)

[Oblio]

I we want to discuss calendars, or pews, or praying with others, fine. I just don't think that we should allow the promotion of Schism, or the potential prostelysation of the faithful to do so.

[Dust and Ashes]

It is also a matter of the fact that when they are allowed to be discussed openly and without some sort of check and balance that these conversations often become very unOrthodox, let alone unChristian. There are fora out there that let one side be heard over the other and we can see the response. Thongs get very heated and very harsh.

As one trying to teach my wife the TRUTHS of Orthodoxy these forums are places THE LAST PLACES I would say were safe for her in her fragile state. Even for me these places are not good because they lead to the occasion of sin when I question the unity of the Church....

Ja, zhis is one of my slips. :P

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/shagzilla69/freud.jpg.jpg

[Oblio]

Ja, zhis is one of my slips. :P

:D

[Sothron]

I suggest that those wish to lead others to schism can do so in the proposed debate subforum. I do not want inquirer's coming to the main board and seeing something Old and New Calendarists debates just needlessly confuse them and their own journey into exploring real Orthodoxy.

[Orthosdoxa]

Right.

And the problem isn't even being Old Calendarist - I'm quite sympathetic to the idea of OC, personally. The problem is being schismatic. He could still be canonically Orthodox AND be on the OC. Voila!

[MichaelArchangelos]

Right.

And the problem isn't even being Old Calendarist - I'm quite sympathetic to the idea of OC, personally. The problem is being schismatic. He could still be canonically Orthodox AND be on the OC. Voila!

Yes, but the canonical Orthodox churches are in communion with the Patriarch of Costantinople, who thinks Islam is great and even quotes from the Koran. Why should he quote that satanic rubbish when there are plenty of the Holy Fathers that he could quote?

And if you support ecumenism, that all "Christian" groups are good and have truth, why are you so opposed to traditional, old-calendar Orthodoxy? We are Christian, too.

[Monica, child of God]

Is anyone in TAW super ecumenical? I think we are respectful of non-Orthodox but not of us seem to be touchy-feely or wanting to go worship with them and stuff.

M.

[Sothron]

Is anyone in TAW super ecumenical? I think we are respectful of non-Orthodox but not of us seem to be touchy-feely or wanting to go worship with them and stuff.

M.

I have never seen any of the members here express the slightest urge to "modernize" and enumenicize the principles and tenets of the Church.

[MishaM]

Wow.. that was a bad slip of the fingers. My apologies. :) :P:holy::blush::doh:

[OIT]

hey i just wanted to say that i think its pretty lame that we have a rule that doesnt allow Michael to state his views -- like it or not, Ecumenism, the calendar, the schism churches, are issues in the modern Orthodox world and we should be allowed to talk about them.

I agree that's why I try to avoid this forum :D.

[Monica, child of God]

I agree that's why I try to avoid this forum :D.

And yet you grace us today when we are having a conflict in our little community :scratch: I don't wish to be unpleasant but if you wish to participate in our conflicts at least extend to us your friendship when things are calm as well. We don't need people coming in to stir the pot.

M.

[Orthosdoxa]

Folks, here's where a debate board might come in handy. I feel like I'm helping spread manure on what I want to be a safe haven, but I'm going to answer Michael.

who thinks Islam is great and even quotes from the Koran.

Source?

If true... Bishops make mistakes, too. Look at history. The answer was not breaking off and in the spirit of Protestantism, forming a new church - it was the laypeople creating an uproar over episcopal abuses! Since when has the Orthodox church moved quickly? It sometimes took generations to correct wrongs. Was the answer to form 4 dozen splinter groups in the meantime?

Besides, he is not our pope. We hold him in high regard, but he's just another bishop (despite how the MSM refers to him in every single story ever written :sick: ) Submit to your OWN bishop, and pray for the Church. Don't leave it.

Why should he quote that satanic rubbish when there are plenty of the Holy Fathers that he could quote?

Agree with every word. But what you're doing is exactly the wrong thing in response to it. You're running away, outside the Church, rather than staying in and fighting for the Church.

And if you support ecumenism, that all "Christian" groups are good and have truth, why are you so opposed to traditional, old-calendar Orthodoxy? We are Christian, too.

Eh. Support ecumenism... Not exactly a fair statement. I acknowledge other Christian groups have some truth - but I want to bring them all into Orthodoxy. If the fellows I corresponded with for two years in learning about Orthodoxy had said, "You're a heretic! You're not even a Christian!" - I would not be Orthodox today, most likely. I would have run. But they acknowledged my love for Jesus and gently shared with me that the Church He started was still here. THAT, my friend, is the point of ecumenism...and I daresay for most Orthodox... the only point. Not to say all Christian groups are equal. They are not. But we must reach out to them where they are if we ever want them to find Orthodoxy. Nobody responds well to a snotty, closed-off group that won't even acknowledge their faith at all.

[rusmeister]

Publicly repping Orthosdoxa's post.
:thumbsup:

[SeraphimSarov]

I have never seen any of the members here express the slightest urge to "modernize" and enumenicize the principles and tenets of the Church.
God forbid. How do you think I got here from Catholicism?

[Vasileios]

I formally request that OIT's post be deleted.
Thank you for bringing your love and unity into our forum.

Let me just say that I have just had it with people who think they know better than the entire mount Athos and two of our greatest saints of these days, the elders Porphyrios and Paisios.

These groups know fully well what these holy men have said but chose to ignore it and come up with all sorts of excuses as to "why the holy father said it". Protestantism at it's finest and they dare claim to be Orthodox.

I for one, will not show the same tolerance and respect that some posters here do for the "good, loving old calendarists". I think they are misguided souls who cause harm to the Body of Christ with schisms, with spreading of lies (albeit most of them like Michael do not know they are lies) and with presenting a false picture of Orthodoxy in general.

I have lost count of how many heterodox were turned off by the old calendarists, who show up willingly only when everything is bad to point their finger at the mess.

Like the elder Paisios said, they resemble the flies, always looking for filth to sit upon, and in a field of flowers they would not even know there are flowers around them, they would only know about the filth, because that is their desire and all they care about.

Personally, and with respect to jckstraw, if Michael has decided that he knows better than the elders and that he has better discernment than them, and wants to spread his old calendarist propaganda here, I say we do not let him.

My opinion of course.

[Ioan cel Nou]

I formally request that OIT's post be deleted.
Thank you for bringing your love and unity into our forum.

Let me just say that I have just had it with people who think they know better than the entire mount Athos and two of our greatest saints of these days, the elders Porphyrios and Paisios.

These groups know fully well what these holy men have said but chose to ignore it and come up with all sorts of excuses as to "why the holy father said it". Protestantism at it's finest and they dare claim to be Orthodox.

I for one, will not show the same tolerance and respect that some posters here do for the "good, loving old calendarists". I think they are misguided souls who cause harm to the Body of Christ with schisms, with spreading of lies (albeit most of them like Michael do not know they are lies) and with presenting a false picture of Orthodoxy in general.

I have lost count of how many heterodox were turned off by the old calendarists, who show up willingly only when everything is bad to point their finger at the mess.

Like the elder Paisios said, they resemble the flies, always looking for filth to sit upon, and in a field of flowers they would not even know there are flowers around them, they would only know about the filth, because that is their desire and all they care about.

Personally, and with respect to jckstraw, if Michael has decided that he knows better than the elders and that he has better discernment than them, and wants to spread his old calendarist propaganda here, I say we do not let him.

My opinion of course.
I second this. I couldn't agree more.

James

[xristos.anesti]

Schism is the biggest sin against the Church -

that is all.

[Oblio]

Those who follow the Schismatics are like Protestants who follow the Pope. They do what is right in their own eyes to follow a Bishop who has left the Church.

[kamikat]

hey i just wanted to say that i think its pretty lame that we have a rule that doesnt allow Michael to state his views -- like it or not, Ecumenism, the calendar, the schism churches, are issues in the modern Orthodox world and we should be allowed to talk about them.

This is why we have been discussing the possiblity of a subforum specifically for debate. As you can tell from that thread, several of the inquirers to ORthodoxy mentioned that that particular thread was causing them confusion and to stumble in their inquirery. That is why we need to have that kind of discussion in a place set aside for it.

[Greg the byzantine]

I formally request that OIT's post be deleted.
Thank you for bringing your love and unity into our forum.

Let me just say that I have just had it with people who think they know better than the entire mount Athos and two of our greatest saints of these days, the elders Porphyrios and Paisios.

These groups know fully well what these holy men have said but chose to ignore it and come up with all sorts of excuses as to "why the holy father said it". Protestantism at it's finest and they dare claim to be Orthodox.

I for one, will not show the same tolerance and respect that some posters here do for the "good, loving old calendarists". I think they are misguided souls who cause harm to the Body of Christ with schisms, with spreading of lies (albeit most of them like Michael do not know they are lies) and with presenting a false picture of Orthodoxy in general.

I have lost count of how many heterodox were turned off by the old calendarists, who show up willingly only when everything is bad to point their finger at the mess.

Like the elder Paisios said, they resemble the flies, always looking for filth to sit upon, and in a field of flowers they would not even know there are flowers around them, they would only know about the filth, because that is their desire and all they care about.

Personally, and with respect to jckstraw, if Michael has decided that he knows better than the elders and that he has better discernment than them, and wants to spread his old calendarist propaganda here, I say we do not let him.

My opinion of course.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vasileios again.

[RobNJ]

I formally request that OIT's post be deleted.
.

THAT is what that little button marked "REPORT" is for! ;)

[nestoj]

I formally request that OIT's post be deleted.
Thank you for bringing your love and unity into our forum.

Let me just say that I have just had it with people who think they know better than the entire mount Athos and two of our greatest saints of these days, the elders Porphyrios and Paisios.

These groups know fully well what these holy men have said but chose to ignore it and come up with all sorts of excuses as to "why the holy father said it". Protestantism at it's finest and they dare claim to be Orthodox.

I for one, will not show the same tolerance and respect that some posters here do for the "good, loving old calendarists". I think they are misguided souls who cause harm to the Body of Christ with schisms, with spreading of lies (albeit most of them like Michael do not know they are lies) and with presenting a false picture of Orthodoxy in general.

I have lost count of how many heterodox were turned off by the old calendarists, who show up willingly only when everything is bad to point their finger at the mess.

Like the elder Paisios said, they resemble the flies, always looking for filth to sit upon, and in a field of flowers they would not even know there are flowers around them, they would only know about the filth, because that is their desire and all they care about.

Personally, and with respect to jckstraw, if Michael has decided that he knows better than the elders and that he has better discernment than them, and wants to spread his old calendarist propaganda here, I say we do not let him.

My opinion of course.

Is there something wrong with old calendar?

I’m also troubled with most of concerns Michael and OIT have, only difference is I’m not abandoning The Church because I don’t like something that some Bishop has to say.

nestoj
God helps

[RobNJ]

Is there something wrong with old calendar?

nestoj
God helps

No, there are legitimate canonical groups using the old calendar. It's just that some schismatic groups, who have broken away from their legitimate jurisdictions, have taken up the calendar issue as a "rallying point"

[Emmanuel-A]

I often lurk on a french forum

www.forum-orthodoxe.com (http://www.forum-orthodoxe.com)

Given their traditionalist position, the mods first made the choice to let everyone post (ie including "GOC" of various kind). They soon had to change their minds. Dialogue soon turned sour because GOC were incapable of respecting those who made the choice to stay in canonic jurisdictions. Slander was the only answer they could bring when their contradictions were exposed.

I respect some GOC for their publishing work and have friends among them, but in the end, dialogue is often a dead end because of their pre-existing schismatic attitude (any serene exam of their canonic situation is impossible, and they often hide behind this peculiar ecclesiology : "whatever the human passions that explain our ailing canonic situation, at least we're not oecumenists").

[Macarius]

Is there something wrong with old calendar?

I’m also troubled with most of concerns Michael and OIT have, only difference is I’m not abandoning The Church because I don’t like something that some Bishop has to say.

nestoj
God helps
I must second the notion that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the Old or New calander. My SF uses the Old Calander! He just isn't old calander-IST. It's the schism, not the calander, that is the issue.

I agree that Orthodox Christians could discuss whether or not we should use the old or new calander. But a schismatic does not belong at the table. They have left the church.

[Macarius]

I must second the notion that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the Old or New calander. My SF uses the Old Calander! He just isn't old calander-IST. It's the schism, not the calander, that is the issue.

I agree that Orthodox Christians could discuss whether or not we should use the old or new calander. But a schismatic does not belong at the table. They have left the church.
I also wish to say that this thread should be moved to the new forum or closed as soon as the debate forum is available. I don't want it confusing more people than it already has...

Just my opinion though.

[nestoj]

No, there are legitimate canonical groups using the old calendar. It's just that some schismatic groups, who have broken away from their legitimate jurisdictions, have taken up the calendar issue as a "rallying point"
I know, mine is one of them - canonical groups using the old calendar.

I was just getting the feeling that, in order to defend Orthodox Church, attack was made on any use of old calendar – that’s a same thing schismatics are doing – find something you don’t like and attack everything because of that. I know what I don’t like, but since I maybe wrong, and I KNOW that Church will always triumph and separate right from wrong, I restrain my judgment. I suggest rest of the brethren with similar concerns do the same.

nestoj
God helps

[RobNJ]

I know, mine is one of them - canonical groups using the old calendar.

I was just getting the feeling that, in order to defend Orthodox Church, attack was made on any use of old calendar – that’s a same thing schismatics are doing – find something you don’t like and attack everything because of that. I know what I don’t like, but since I maybe wrong, and I KNOW that Church will always triumph and separate right from wrong, I restrain my judgment. I suggest rest of the brethren with similar concerns do the same.

nestoj
God helps


I usually make an effort to make a firm distinction between the Old Calendar people & the Old Calendarist people

[SeraphimSarov]

As you can tell from that thread, several of the inquirers to ORthodoxy mentioned that that particular thread was causing them confusion and to stumble in their inquirery. That is why we need to have that kind of discussion in a place set aside for it.

Emphasis mine. Doesn't that say it all? :doh:

[nestoj]

I usually make an effort to make a firm distinction between the Old Calendar people & the Old Calendarist people
It wasn't you. I just quoted your post cause you ware first to respond to my question. And I completely agree with you.

*Sigh*, maybe it's good that we don't have any faith reasons to argue, so we find them in politics....

nestoj
God helps

[ma2000]

It wasn't you. I just quoted your post cause you ware first to respond to my question. And I completely agree with you.

*Sigh*, maybe it's good that we don't have any faith reasons to argue, so we find them in politics....

nestoj
God helps
I hope it wasn't me, because I have a great respect on the Serbian Orthodox Church and the other canonical Orthodox Churches.
Forgive me.

God bless!

[jckstraw72]

well lets rock a debate sub-forum then, that sounds like a good idea.

[Qoheleth]

legitimate jurisdictions


I dont think it wise to discuss the schismatics or other heterodox and then bring up this heresy amongst the "canonical" Orthodox Churches at the same time. Seems rather odd.

Lets not forget ROCOR just a few months ago was considered non-canonical, yes even heterodox. Who is canonical who is not, who is in communion, who is not...and over what ??


Q

[Orthosdoxa]

Lets not forget ROCOR just a few months ago was considered non-canonical, yes even heterodox.

:scratch:

Maybe by some. My second spiritual father is ROCOR, and my priests have never had a problem with that. I've communed in ROCOR churches. I was always told it was an irregularity, but the ban was concelebration, not intercommunion. *shrug*

[RobNJ]

I dont think it wise to discuss the schismatics or other heterodox and then bring up this heresy amongst the "canonical" Orthodox Churches at the same time. Seems rather odd.

Lets not forget ROCOR just a few months ago was considered non-canonical, yes even heterodox. Who is canonical who is not, who is in communion, who is not...and over what ??


Q

NO, ROCOR was a jurisdiction that might have "Exceeded their original parameters" But they weren't vagante & schismatic , like some of the "Old Calendarist" types,,, who deserve to be considered at much a part of Orthodoxy as "Bishop Draperod" and his ilk!!

[Orthosdoxa]

"Bishop Draperod"

Oh, you must mean "Mr. Tammy Faye Baker"! :D

[Oblio]

Rob, I think a pic is in order, not everyone knows the type of folks we are speaking of ;)

[RobNJ]

Rob, I think a pic is in order, not everyone knows the type of folks we are speaking of ;)

True!!
Although, I don't think the ACTUAL Draperod pic is on the site, anymore!!

http://www.education-1.net/justicelines.htm

[jckstraw72]

in response to Qoheleth's post -- i just read "Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros, and he makes the argument that this whole issue of canonical and non-canonical according to who you're in communion with is a Catholic idea, not truly an Orthodox one -- like if youre not with Rome youre not Catholic. he said basically if you're Orthodox you're Orthodox (although the Orthodox Fathers condemn shism -- that was the only thing i could see as wrong with his argument -- but they would argue that WE are a schism, and not them). what do ya'll think of that? does canonicity come down to who you're in communion with? i borrowed the book from my priest and i want to ask him about it when he gets back from vacation, but i just thought id get ya'lls opinions for now.

[Macarius]

in response to Qoheleth's post -- i just read "Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros, and he makes the argument that this whole issue of canonical and non-canonical according to who you're in communion with is a Catholic idea, not truly an Orthodox one -- like if youre not with Rome youre not Catholic. he said basically if you're Orthodox you're Orthodox (although the Orthodox Fathers condemn shism -- that was the only thing i could see as wrong with his argument -- but they would argue that WE are a schism, and not them). what do ya'll think of that? does canonicity come down to who you're in communion with? i borrowed the book from my priest and i want to ask him about it when he gets back from vacation, but i just thought id get ya'lls opinions for now.
Communion with the Orthodox Bishop of your see is the criteria for laypeople and priests.

Communion with the college of bishops is the criteria for bishops.

That's the criteria given by Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyon, and most specifically St. Cyprian of Carthage (who states it directly).

The Roman innovation was to make that test of communion with the college of bishops into the test of communion with the one bishop: Rome. But so long as you are in communion with the college of bishops that preaches the apostolic revelation of faith, you're in communion with the Orthodox Church.

[buzuxi02]

in response to Qoheleth's post -- i just read "Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros, and he makes the argument that this whole issue of canonical and non-canonical according to who you're in communion with is a Catholic idea, not truly an Orthodox one -- like if youre not with Rome youre not Catholic. he said basically if you're Orthodox you're Orthodox (although the Orthodox Fathers condemn shism -- that was the only thing i could see as wrong with his argument -- but they would argue that WE are a schism, and not them). what do ya'll think of that? does canonicity come down to who you're in communion with? i borrowed the book from my priest and i want to ask him about it when he gets back from vacation, but i just thought id get ya'lls opinions for now.
You make a great point. And i agree that being buddy buddy with the right set of bishops is not what makes one Orthodox.

The totality (catholic) faith is found on the local level. As St. Ignatius taught. Orthodoxy comes down to being united with a right-believing bishop with apostolic succession and orthopraxis. What unites us on a universal level is not a set of bishops who are friendly to each other, but the Holy Eucharist.

[Vasileios]

Nestoj, guessing you are asking me about the Old Calendar, Of COURSE I have absolutely no problem with it. Mount Athos uses it, your church uses it, the Russians use it. I wish the Greeks and the whole church used it if you want my opinion.

But the old calendarists are a different story altogether.

[rusmeister]

True!!
Although, I don't think the ACTUAL Draperod pic is on the site, anymore!!

http://www.education-1.net/justicelines.htm
Uh, Rob, who is that guy?