List of approved posters in MJ, The list.

[stone]

There is another poll going right now that Quaffer started. It ask who can debate in this forum. The majority votes that all Messianics, trinitarian and non-trinitarians; Jews, and christian friends.

We will need to define our friends, and list who can post and debate in our forum. Some messianics have voiced their opinions that they do not wish to have a list of posters that can post freely in here.

This poll is made to view whether or not a list of approved posters is welcomed here and if so, who can be placed on this list.

Please read the questions carefully.

This poll is only for Messianics.

[Sephania]

I don't even understand this part:
This poll is made to view whether or not a list of approved posters is welcomed here So wouldn't begin to know what I was voting on or how to vote. This place just gets more and more confusing.

[stone]

do you know what the list is?

[Talmidah]

I can't vote :(

But I'd still like to understand what you all are voting on.

So, for example, in your option 5, all messianics could debate along with a "list of approved Jews and Christians". Would these be approved by the moderators?

And then in your option 6, all messianics could debate and then the MJ forum would vote as to which Jews and which Christians would be allowed? ie, there would be a poll and people would vote whether or not Talmidah is allowed?

And where would noahides fall under these choices, with the Jews?

I don't mean to offend with these questions, especially since I can't vote for the options. But as I watch the thread, I'd like to understand what is going on.

Thanks, stone! :)

[stone]

I can't vote :(

But I'd still like to understand what you all are voting on.

So, for example, in your option 5, all messianics could debate along with a "list of approved Jews and Christians". Would these be approved by the moderators?

We already had a list of approved christians, the requirements of it were the 3 that Tishri1 mentioned in the other thread about who is allowed to debate. I guess under this option, since all Jews are kosher, keep the festivals and torah observant, you guys are in automatically.


And then in your option 6, all messianics could debate and then the MJ forum would vote as to which Jews and which Christians would be allowed? ie, there would be a poll and people would vote whether or not Talmidah is allowed?

correct

And where would noahides fall under these choices, with the Jews?

yes, do they have different icons?


I don't mean to offend with these questions, especially since I can't vote for the options. But as I watch the thread, I'd like to understand what is going on.

Thanks, stone! :)


The Seventh Day Adventist forum also has a list.{coming as soon as i have time to sticky it} The difference is that their list consist of SDA's that carry other icons, but are SDA's or married to a SDA, stuff like that.

Hope this helps.

[Talmidah]

We already had a list of approved christians, the requirements of it were the 3 that Tishri1 mentioned in the other thread about who is allowed to debate. I guess under this option, since all Jews are kosher, keep the festivals and torah observant, you guys are in automatically.



correct



yes, do they have different icons?




The Seventh Day Adventist forum also has a list.{coming as soon as i have time to sticky it} The difference is that their list consist of SDA's that carry other icons, but are SDA's or married to a SDA, stuff like that.

Hope this helps.

Thank you, stone. This definitely helps. I look forward to seeing the outcome of your poll.

As for the noahides, there are only a couple here at CF that I'm aware of and I'm not sure what icons they are using as they both have their icons hidden.

[Sephania]

Wouldn't making a decision on this poll be dependent on if the Congregational debate forum were brought back or not? If it were would we really need to have our own place for debating? There used to be a debate sub forum here when I first came but no one used it enough and it was dissolved.

I think the rule about defining what we consider to be debate in this forum is still being worked out also is it not?

I personally think too many polls are being hastily made and way too many, means distraction and confusion. It is no longer a pleasure to come here and converse, it is a chore. I don't even vote in secular polls anywhere near as much as here, and I have only voted a couple times.

[christianmomof3]

We already had a list of approved christians, the requirements of it were the 3 that Tishri1 mentioned in the other thread about who is allowed to debate. I guess under this option, since all Jews are kosher, keep the festivals and torah observant, you guys are in automatically.

:sigh: Stone, are you Jewish? Have you ever been Jewish? I have read that more Jewish people belong to Reform Judaism than to Conservative or Orthodox Judaism- at least in the USA they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
All Jews do not keep kosher and their festival and torah observance varries from person to person.

Here is a quote about Reform Judaism from the wikipedia article:

Contemporary Reform Judaism movements share most of the following principles:

The autonomy (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/autonomy) of the individual in interpreting the Torah and Oral Law, as well as in deciding which observances one is thereby prescribed to follow,
I find it misleading that this forum calls itself Messianic Jewish and then refuses to recognize the majority of Jews as being Jewish. We don't all keep kosher or celebrate all of the Biblical feasts or fit into your defintion of "Torah observant". But we are Jews. Even I, who am now a born-again Christian am still a Jew. I always have been and always will be. In Christ, that does not matter because we are all one in Christ Jesus where there is no Jew and no Greek.
But on this forum, apparantly it does. :scratch:

[Wags]

Maybe we should start out with a poll that is limited to torahscroll and menorah icons only. In that poll we could determine whether or not to keep the old "special privledges" list. As it is right now, people that don't carry those icons are voting. The aren't messianic - but they are having a hand in detemining what the rules of the messianic forum are going to be. That doesn't seem right.

If the messianics (torah/menorah icons) vote to allow others to have special priveledges that is fine - as long as those priveledges are defined and adherred to.

[Talmidah]

Deleted because, upon rereading, my post sounded confrontational which was the furthest thing from my mind.

[insaneinthebrain]

I find it misleading that this forum calls itself Messianic Jewish and then refuses to recognize the majority of Jews as being Jewish. We don't all keep kosher or celebrate all of the Biblical feasts or fit into your defintion of "Torah observant". But we are Jews. Even I, who am now a born-again Christian am still a Jew. I always have been and always will be. In Christ, that does not matter because we are all one in Christ Jesus where there is no Jew and no Greek.
But on this forum, apparantly it does. :scratch:
This is an excellent summary of what's currently wrong with this forum, we'd much rather have the company of non-Messianic Jews than that of Jews who were raised Jewish and became Christian. Not that I have a problem with those practicing normative Judaism (heck, Talmidah is one of my favorite members here, just don't tell her I said that! ;)), I just don't understand why we must chose them over the Jewish Christians.

[muffler dragon]

Thank you, stone. This definitely helps. I look forward to seeing the outcome of your poll.

As for the noahides, there are only a couple here at CF that I'm aware of and I'm not sure what icons they are using as they both have their icons hidden.

I just use the Jewish icon, because it's the closest thing to my beliefs.

[Talmidah]

I just use the Jewish icon, because it's the closest thing to my beliefs.Works for me. :)

Now we just need to sit back and see how exclusive the members of this forum would like it to become.

[stone]

:sigh: Stone, are you Jewish? Have you ever been Jewish? I have read that more Jewish people belong to Reform Judaism than to Conservative or Orthodox Judaism- at least in the USA they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
All Jews do not keep kosher and their festival and torah observance varries from person to person.

Here is a quote about Reform Judaism from the wikipedia article:

I find it misleading that this forum calls itself Messianic Jewish and then refuses to recognize the majority of Jews as being Jewish. We don't all keep kosher or celebrate all of the Biblical feasts or fit into your defintion of "Torah observant". But we are Jews. Even I, who am now a born-again Christian am still a Jew. I always have been and always will be. In Christ, that does not matter because we are all one in Christ Jesus where there is no Jew and no Greek.
But on this forum, apparantly it does. :scratch:

ok, its really simple then, if they don't observe, then in that area they don't qualify and are not added to the list.

[muffler dragon]

Works for me. :)

Now we just need to sit back and see how exclusive the members of this forum would like it to become.

Personally, I'm up for the whole kit and kaboodle in this forum or a subforum. I'm not really into "partial" membership. I try to be respectful, courteous, and engaging. If the members of this forum don't want that; then I'm fine with being told that my attendance is not welcome.

To be honest, the biggest thing that bothers me is when people come to this forum to ask questions about Judaism from the members here. There are some who are qualified, but I would say the vast majority are not. Thus, the answer that the questioner gets is less than credible. But that's just my own personal beef.

[Talmidah]

Personally, I'm up for the whole kit and kaboodle in this forum or a subforum. I'm not really into "partial" membership. I try to be respectful, courteous, and engaging. If the members of this forum don't want that; then I'm fine with being told that my attendance is not welcome.

To be honest, the biggest thing that bothers me is when people come to this forum to ask questions about Judaism from the members here. There are some who are qualified, but I would say the vast majority are not. Thus, the answer that the questioner gets is less than credible. But that's just my own personal beef.

It doesn't really matter. I'm not going hang around like a begging dog, waiting for the master to let me know if I will be allowed here or not. I think it is obvious from the main members of this forum that they would prefer not to engage in discussion with people like you, Chava, me, and even ContraMundum. Its just as well.

[christianmomof3]

ok, its really simple then, if they don't observe, then in that area they don't qualify and are not added to the list.
It doesn't really matter. I'm not going hang around like a begging dog, waiting for the master to let me know if I will be allowed here or not. I think it is obvious from the main members of this forum would prefer not to engage in discussion with people like you, Chava, me, and even ContraMundum. Its just as well.
I guess that I am not wanted either.

[muffler dragon]

It doesn't really matter. I'm not going hang around like a begging dog, waiting for the master to let me know if I will be allowed here or not. I think it is obvious from the main members of this forum would prefer not to engage in discussion with people like you, Chava, me, and even ContraMundum. Its just as well.

If that's the way it goes, then...

que sera sera.

[insaneinthebrain]

ok, its really simple then, if they don't observe, then in that area they don't qualify and are not added to the list.
Shameful :sigh:

[ChavaK]

I guess that I am not wanted either.

:(

It seems sad to have to even have a list.
Cannot posting just be open, and if someone
is behaving in a less than polite way,
the mods can remove the posts and PM
the poster?

Why not try leaving it open to begin with,
but police it carefully?

[christianmomof3]

ok, its really simple then, if they don't observe, then in that area they don't qualify and are not added to the list.

Shameful :sigh:
and sad. I have quoted the definition of MJ from the MJAA site here before and will post it again:
"Messianic Judaism is a Biblically-based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke."
There is nothing in that definition or in any other definition of MJ that I looked up that lists keeping kosher, the sabbath and the feasts as a requirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
This site shows that Messianic Judaism encompasses a variety of practices:
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/beliefs-of-messianic-judaism-faq.htm

Most Messianic Jews belong to Messianic Jewish congregations or synagogues. More than ninety percent are charismatic and believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues. Their leader is called a Rabbi. A typical congregation will be composed of Christians who are not Jewish, Messianic Jews who do not practice Jewish customs, and Messianic Jews who follow strict orthodox practices such as kosher methods of food preparation and eating.

Most observe the Shabbat (Sabbath), starting at sundown Friday. All Jewish holidays are observed. These include Passover, Succoth, and Shavuot. Only a few celebrate Yom Yeshua on December 25. The Hebrew Scriptures are referred to as the Tanach (Old Covenant Scriptures). The Christian scriptures are called the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant Scriptures).

Some Messianic Jews believe that the second coming of Jesus will only come when a sufficient number of Jews accept Yeshua as their Messiah and Savior. Others believe that Jesus could come at any time.




I don't know what Stone's definition of MJ is or where it comes from, and although some others on this site apparantly share his definition of it being only people who keep kosher, observe the sabbath and observe the feasts, that is NOT exclusively what MJ is.
Is that what it will be at this forum?
If so, that is sad.:(

[Talmidah]

:(

It seems sad to have to even have a list.
Cannot posting just be open, and if someone
is behaving in a less than polite way,
the mods can remove the posts and PM
the poster?

Why not try leaving it open to begin with,
but police it carefully?
You're right, it is sad. I was optimistic about the new openness that Erwin had announced. But other than the removal of the [open] tags, it appears that everything will be the same as it was before.

[christianmomof3]

You're right, it is sad. I was optimistic about the new openness that Erwin had announced. But other than the removal of the [open] tags, it appears that everything will be the same as it was before.
I guess it will be if people vote it that way. :sigh:

[Wags]

Anyone else notice that most of the people posting in this thread are ones that can't vote in the poll.

I'm sorry you are so sad, but really what does the MJAA have to do with this forum? Absolutley nothing.

[christianmomof3]

Anyone else notice that most of the people posting in this thread are ones that can't vote in the poll.

I'm sorry you are so sad, but really what does the MJAA have to do with this forum? Absolutley nothing.
Well, where is there a definition of what Messianic Judaism is?
I thought that was an acceptable source.
If you have a better more acceptable source and definition of what MJ is, please share it.
I did a search on Messianic Jew and Messianic Judaism and posted what I found.
And as far as the people posting being those who can't vote, I thought the changes on the whole forum were to change things like that.

[Wags]

What is the point of having a sub-forum if anyone can saunter in and post whatever they like? That is what General theology is for.

It is a little tougher in a messianic forum to come up with a memeber definition, since it is a movement and not a denomination with descriptions in place.

The guidelines that Tishri and Zayit mentioned in the other thread are broader then I would personally choose, but I think they are fair enough.

The problem with letting any and everyone in to debate is people come here and attack beliefs - like the 7th day Sabbath, or Israel's right to exisit for example. If we wanted to debate those sorts of things there are plenty of threads in GT and other places to do that. By allowing the debate here - it takes away a safe place for like minded believers to come and discuss the finer points of our beliefs without getting hit over the head all the time.

[Wags]

That is not a religious belief how ever.
Scripture tells me that God gave the land to Israel. So yes, it is a religious belief.

Addtionally, many of us have friends and family that live in Israel and some of us hope to one day be allowed to make aliyah to our homeland. When you say Isarel does not have the right to exist, you are saying we do not have a right to exist.

No matter how you look at it, it is a hot button topic and shouldn't be allowed in this sub-forum. I don't dis Lebanese, or Catholics - you should show the same respect for us.

[Talmidah]

What is the point of having a sub-forum if anyone can saunter in and post whatever they like? That is what General theology is for.

It is a little tougher in a messianic forum to come up with a memeber definition, since it is a movement and not a denomination with descriptions in place.

The guidelines that Tishri and Zayit mentioned in the other thread are broader then I would personally choose, but I think they are fair enough.

The problem with letting any and everyone in to debate is people come here and attack beliefs - like the 7th day Sabbath, or Israel's right to exisit for example. If we wanted to debate those sorts of things there are plenty of threads in GT and other places to do that. By allowing the debate here - it takes away a safe place for like minded believers to come and discuss the finer points of our beliefs without getting hit over the head all the time.Yet there would still be FSRs in place to prevent attacking of beliefs such as the 7th day Sabbath and Israel's right to exist. I've been here for 2 1/2 years and was a frequent poster. My intention was never to attack you or bash anyone over the head. It was simply to engage in discussion, to learn where others are coming from and to convey where I'm coming from. In the end, it is of course up to you all and you are free to choose whom you allow in.

[visionary]

All those who have posted on this thread [so far] should be allowed to post under the vote... cause I for one would vote you all the opportunity to visit with us any time you want....

[christianmomof3]

What is the point of having a sub-forum if anyone can saunter in and post whatever they like? That is what General theology is for.

It is a little tougher in a messianic forum to come up with a memeber definition, since it is a movement and not a denomination with descriptions in place.

The guidelines that Tishri and Zayit mentioned in the other thread are broader then I would personally choose, but I think they are fair enough.

The problem with letting any and everyone in to debate is people come here and attack beliefs - like the 7th day Sabbath, or Israel's right to exisit for example. If we wanted to debate those sorts of things there are plenty of threads in GT and other places to do that. By allowing the debate here - it takes away a safe place for like minded believers to come and discuss the finer points of our beliefs without getting hit over the head all the time.
I understand wanting a forum area where your beliefs will not be attacked.
I don't think that people should attack one another's beliefs anywhere on the forum, but I do think that it should be ok to ask questions about them.
However, the guidelines listed - those of keeping kosher, sabbath observance and the feasts are not really in line with what Messianic Judaism is.
The part I quoted is from this site:
http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm (http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm)
and it does show that many Messianic congregations include Jews and non-Jews and people with a variety of observances of the things listed above.
I don't think they should be attacked, but I do not think that they should be used as a definition of MJ because that is not what MJ is.
I stated in another thread a rule that I would like to see: "Here in the MJ forum we support the Jews and we support Israel and any posts that do not support the Jews and Israel will not be allowed in this forum."

I imagine that there are other rules that should be in place, but I do not think the definition of MJ should be that of only people who keep the sabbath, kosher and feasts.

[insaneinthebrain]

What about Jews who oppose Zionism?
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
All 5 of 'em? ;) The number of religious Jews who oppose Israel is quite small.

[christianmomof3]

What about Jews who oppose Zionism?
[/color][/size][/font]
I had not heard of that until someone pointed it out on CF.

There are some Jews that do not support Zionism but it is a group who are not generally accepted by most Jews.

I personally would still keep the no posting against Jews or Israel rule for the MJ forum.

If people want to post against Zionism they can do that elsewhere like in GA or wherever that would be allowed.

That is what forum specific rules are for.

[simchat_torah]

I think it is obvious from the main members of this forum that they would prefer not to engage in discussion with people like you, Chava, me, and even ContraMundum. and Simchat_Torah. Its just as well.

*fixed*

[Talmidah]

*fixed*Well you never come around anymore anyway! :P

[insaneinthebrain]

*fixed*
But nobody's ever enjoyed talking to you! :P

[Talmidah]

What about Jews who oppose Zionism?
[/color][/size][/font]They can go post in another forum as well.

[simchat_torah]

"Messianic Judaism is a Biblically-based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke."
I guess all those Gentiles are out of luck? Too bad, because that's like 99.9% of MJ members. maybe closer to 99.99999999%?

[simchat_torah]

But nobody's ever enjoyed talking to you!
I know!
I think its because I never have anything to say :D


Well you never come around anymore anyway! :P
Oh c'mon now...
I post once a season until I get enough warnings that I'm about banned, then come back and post the next season of the year until I get a mailbox full of warnings....
rinse, repeat, rince, repeat, rinse, repeat.

;)

[Talmidah]

So, only people who agree with your political philosophy can post in this forum?That has nothing to do with it, especially since this is not my forum and I have nothing to do with what is allowed or not allowed. The rules for this forum state no anti-zionist or anti-Israel posts. If I came here and posted something against the rules, I would expect for it to be deleted.

[simchat_torah]

About that, the word “Jew” refers to one of the tribe of Judah, which today really only applies to a very small percentage of people who adhere to Judaism, let alone this MJ religion.That's an archaic definition of Jew that has since been redefined centuries... nay, millenia ago.

[christianmomof3]

I guess all those Gentiles are out of luck? Too bad, because that's like 99.9% of MJ members. maybe closer to 99.99999999%?
:)
That is part of what makes MJ difficult to define.
I did list another definition or explanation that I found:
A typical congregation will be composed of Christians who are not Jewish, Messianic Jews who do not practice Jewish customs, and Messianic Jews who follow strict orthodox practices such as kosher methods of food preparation and eating.

[simchat_torah]

Would talking about the UN resolutions that Israel is in violation of be Anti-Zionism? Would talking about Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel be anti-Zionism, or would anti-Zionism only be un-true rhetoric against Zionism such as comparing them to Nazis or calling for the destruction of Israel?
Depends on what the intent of bringing up such discussion? Would discussing suicide bombers, those filled with vile and hate who want to see Israel and the Jewish people wiped off the face of the Earth be considered anti-palestinian? How about those who quote from their 'scriptures' that Allah wants them to slaughter any who proclaim the Jewish faith... would that be anti-Islam?

You're really being quite facetious in a discussion where it is wholly inappropriate. We are factually discussing those who HATE Jews, but your snide little comments & straw men do nothing to further the discussion.

but then again, that's just my opinion... and just as Talmidah, I am not one to make decisions around here.

-J

[simchat_torah]

More like 300 years ago, but I am confused as to what the definition of Jew on this forum is. Is a Jew one who practices Judaism, or is a Jew someone who is descendent from the Semitic tribes of ancient Israel?As any Encyclopedia will tell you, the term "Jew" refers both those who adhere to a religion and those of ancestoral decent.

For simplicity's sake I'll quote for you Wikipedia... which took me a total of 10 seconds to find:
A Jew (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): יְהוּדִים, Yehudim; Ladino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language): ג׳ודיוס, Djudios; Yiddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language): ייִדן, Yidn)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew#_note-0) is a member of the Jewish people who are an ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group) originating in the Israelites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite) of the ancient Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Near_East). The Jewish people or the jewish nation also consists of others who converted to Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism) throughout the millennia. The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) are strongly interrelated, and converts are both included and have been absorbed within (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-exclusive_ethnic_group) the Jewish people.

I know you have an agenda to push, but people are actually trying to discuss a real topic in this thread.

g'day.

[christianmomof3]

Broad terms that can be applied in a wide variety of ways. Would talking about the UN resolutions that Israel is in violation of be Anti-Zionism? Would talking about Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel be anti-Zionism, or would anti-Zionism only be un-true rhetoric against Zionism such as comparing them to Nazis or calling for the destruction of Israel?
Probably all of that.
That is why CM said that it would be difficult to moderate.
I think the point in this sub forum is that we support Israel.
If you don't support it, then go talk about it in other areas of the board.
Just like the RCC group does not accept posts dissing the pope and their prayer to "Saints", Mary, and other dead people, the MJ group does not wish to allow posts dissing Israel and the Jewish people.
Isn't that what forum specific rules are for?

[simchat_torah]

That is part of what makes MJ difficult to define.

Oh, I know hun..
That's why I was teasingly pointing out the mistake in that definition ;)

[simchat_torah]

Nope, just as discussing Israeli murder of civilians isn’t anti-Jewish or even anti-Israeli.

Then why did you even ask the question in the first place?
I think as long as the verse from the Qur’an promoting tolerance and giving Jews status as people of the book, worthy of paradise and protection by Muslims are also posted.
Unfortunately, nothing as such exists in the Quran, but that is neither here nor there. My previous statement comes back to visit you again:
"Then why did you even ask the question in the first place?"

So people who identify themselves as part of the “MJ” religion are not Jewish?

Not according to Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Brittanica, or any other major source... unless said individual is of Jewish ancestory. Just as every religion has a right to define itself, Judaism has chosen to exclude Messianics. However, there is a trend in recent times (see Denis Prager) where Messianics may be included if they are non-trinitarian.

But again, that is another topic all together and getting way off base from this thread.

I have to revisit my previous question and ask:
Why did you even ask these questions to start with if the obvious answer is "Nope" as you clearly state?

I would conclude it is merely to stir the pot, and make trouble.

[simchat_torah]

by the way... heading out to a concert... be back in a couple of hours. Enjoy the discussion, I'm curious to see who comes out with the ability to engage in healthy debate here in CF.

Shalom,
Yafet

[Wags]

Actually it is quite large, living in NYC I know a lot of Jews and a lot of them oppose Zionism (two of my house mates for one), there are several Jewish groups at my university that are dedicated to opposing Zionism and about 3 months back there was a large pro-human rights protest here and a group “Jews against Zionism" marched with almost 8,000 members, all docked out in their black hats and beards.


I will look it up, but there was a article in the New York Times recently which polls people who identified themselves as Jews in which around 34% said they opposed Zionism and the Israeli state, something like 51% supported Israel but opposed the settlements and occupation and around 15% supported the settlements.
It is quite a divisive issue, there is no absolute consensus among any group really upon it.
Yes, and then maybe we should list all the arab christians that support Israel.

Check out www.wnd.com and listen to Joseph Farrah's views on Israel. And he is only one of many.

[christianmomof3]

I have to revisit my previous question and ask:
Why did you even ask these questions to start with if the obvious answer is "Nope" as you clearly state?

I would conclude it is merely to stir the pot, and make trouble.

I agree.
Those questions are off topic.
The thread is about who can post in MJ.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I guess all those Gentiles are out of luck? Too bad, because that's like 99.9% of MJ members. maybe closer to 99.99999999%?
You took that out of context. Let put it into context:


Romans 10 (King James Version)


1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.




Galatians 3 (King James Version)


1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Gentile through Yeshua HaMashiach are Jews. Plus to get to heaven is not through work based systems:



Ephesians 2 (King James Version)


1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[simchat_torah]

Well, there's a small intermission between artists (I live above a Syrian Bakery and a Coffee Shop, they have some amazing music tonight... be back in an hour to post more).

Anywho...
You took that out of context. Let put it into context:
First, this was not a biblical discussion, this was a theological discussion. What was quoted was the MJAA doctrinal webpage. Referring to various scriptures and speaking your own view on the subject is fine and dandy, but in no way addresses my post. Moreover, my post was merely a jest (as I stated above "That's why I was teasingly pointing out the mistake in that definition".

As well, quoting random scriptures with no context is pointless. You basically tell me "here is the context" but that's not the context to MJAA's website, nor do you give context for new material, etc. I too could quote dozens of scriptures but it would be meaningless if I didn't give you background behind each one, why I was quoting it, where it fits in the discussion, what it means, etc. etc.

But you just opened up a whole new can of worms with your own words:

Gentile through Yeshua HaMashiach are Jews.
wow.

Now I know I'm one to be labeled "heretic" often, but that's about as heretical as it gets.

Wow.

just... wow.


By the way, that's called "replacement theology". fyi.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I recommend that only MJ's and selected Christian recommended by MJ's be allowed to post here. What is most of important is to keep the Holy Torah and Holy Gospel as the authoritative guides and not anything non-scriptural.

[simchat_torah]

I recommend that only MJ's and selected Christian recommended by MJ's be allowed to post here. What is most of important is to keep the Holy Torah and Holy Gospel as the authoritative guides and not anything non-scriptural.
I find it interesting that "Jews"... the people you proclaim to replace... are not on your list.

Is that a mistake or intentional?

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I find it interesting that "Jews"... the people you proclaim to replace... are not on your list.

Is that a mistake or intentional?
There is no Replacement Theology occurring here. Messianic Judaism is the most Orthodox to how the Apostles who were Jews worshiped the Messiah. I said I recommend Messianic Jews and recommended Christians for exactly what you are doing. If you want to debate this than go some where else. I casted my vote and my decision stand and you are evidence to that.

[muffler dragon]

I find it interesting that "Jews"... the people you proclaim to replace... are not on your list.

Is that a mistake or intentional?

Just let it go, brother. People have their warped conceptions that they are more than allowed to have.

Back to the OP:

When Tal informed me that there was a new openness to this site, I have to admit I was skeptical until I checked it out. To realize that I could come and give a shout out to old acquaintances without the looming threat of a warning was really quite cool. Moreover, to get involved in intense (yet respectful) discussion is something that I have missed since our old times here. Regardless of how heated it got, we all tended to still respect and have a good time while learning. Granted, religions and beliefs have changed, but I still miss those days.

[muffler dragon]

Messianic Judaism is the most Orthodox to how the Apostles who were Jews worshiped (sic) the Messiah.

Can't get any more inherently contradictory than that. Oh well.

[Talmidah]

When Tal informed me that there was a new openness to this site, I have to admit I was skeptical until I checked it out. To realize that I could come and give a shout out to old acquaintances without the looming threat of a warning was really quite cool. Moreover, to get involved in intense (yet respectful) discussion is something that I have missed since our old times here. Regardless of how heated it got, we all tended to still respect and have a good time while learning. Granted, religions and beliefs have changed, but I still miss those days.Me too!

[simchat_torah]

There is no Replacement Theology occurring here. Messianic Judaism is the most Orthodox to how the Apostles who were Jews worshiped the Messiah. I said I recommend Messianic Jews and recommended Christians for exactly what you are doing. If you want to debate this than go some where else.Yes, I suppose those of us who are racially/religiously Jewish should leave this forum for the "true Jews", eh?

If Jesus + partial pick and choose torah observance = "True Jews"
Does that make us the "fake Jews"?















Ya gotta love it. haha, yeah right... no replacement theology.

[Tishri1]

I voted other, MJs, NTMJs, Jews , and Christians as long as they dont debate against the Festivals, Shabbat, or Kosher;)

this poll wasnt make viewable so we can see who voted what, was it? it needs to be if it is to be taken seriously:)

[Talmidah]

I voted other, MJs, NTMJs, Jews , and Christians as long as they dont debate against the Festivals, Shabbat, or Kosher;)

this poll wasnt make viewable so we can see who voted what, was it? it needs to be if it is to be taken seriously:)You can see who voted for each choice.

[ContraMundum]

How come people with socks get to vote more than once??????

That's pretty dodgy!

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Can't get any more inherently contradictory than that. Oh well.
Great more people taking stuff out of context. Read the Bible, the Apostles were Jews. There Messianic Judaism tries to adhere to how they worshiped the Messiah.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Yes, I suppose those of us who are racially/religiously Jewish should leave this forum for the "true Jews", eh?

If Jesus + partial pick and choose torah observance = "True Jews"
Does that make us the "fake Jews"?















Ya gotta love it. haha, yeah right... no replacement theology.
1) There is nothing about race to qualify you to be a Jew.

2) There is no partial pick and choose. You don't even know anything about the whole context of the Bible. The Torah is the foundation of the Bible and Jesus Christ is the completion:

http://bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

3) No, you are lost.

4) If you read Revelations and Romans honestly and walk away from Rabbinical Judaism you will realize that Jew and Gentile alike from all nation are going to be in the mix of the Saved and Damned.

5) The sacrifices have all been fulfilled in Yeshua HaMashiach. You however want to justify yourself with the Law. Sorry sweetheart but you are under the curse of the the law.

6) Work do no get you into Heaven. It is by Faith.

7) I recommend you read the Gospels.

[stone]

I voted other, MJs, NTMJs, Jews , and Christians as long as they dont debate against the Festivals, Shabbat, or Kosher;)

this poll wasnt make viewable so we can see who voted what, was it? it needs to be if it is to be taken seriously:)

Tishri1,

When you go to edit the poll, you'll notice that the option is selected to make this public; yet, i can't see anything. I can't see who is voteing for what.

I've noticed this on another poll as well, i experimented with it a bit, and it appears that the poll systems may be broken at the moment.

I'm going to create a few test polls, not here in the public forum of course.

We may have to re-do this one. Socks are not allowed and we can't weed them out if we can't see who is voteing. The only way i will leave the vote of a sock is if i see that the person whose sock it is, did not vote in that poll.

This one appears broken, the poll, so i'm thinking were gonna have to re-do it.

I'll get back to this.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

Tishri1,

When you go to edit the poll, you'll notice that the option is selected to make this public; yet, i can't see anything. I can't see who is voteing for what.

I've noticed this on another poll as well, i experimented with it a bit, and it appears that the poll systems may be broken at the moment.

I'm going to create a few test polls, not here in the public forum of course.

We may have to re-do this one. Socks are not allowed and we can't weed them out if we can't see who is voteing. The only way i will leave the vote of a sock is if i see that the person whose sock it is, did not vote in that poll.

This one appears broken, the poll, so i'm thinking were gonna have to re-do it.

I'll get back to this.
The Poll is not broken. It is fine.

[christianmomof3]

I voted other, MJs, NTMJs, Jews , and Christians as long as they dont debate against the Festivals, Shabbat, or Kosher;)

this poll wasnt make viewable so we can see who voted what, was it? it needs to be if it is to be taken seriously:)
Well, it does or did show who voted and I think that was good because at least one of the voters has a Catholic Icon and I thought that only those with Messianic Icons could vote here.
Who can vote here?
And who are the "socks"?

[stone]

Socks are kept confidential, but we know who they are.

I just tested this, apparently, you can view who voted for what on the poll until you vote. So it is still good to leave. I just have to log out to view who voted for what.

This poll is only for those with torah scrolls and menorrahs. Other votes will be removed after the poll closes.

[Ivy]

I voted because I attend Adat Chaim Messianic Synagogue for the last 13 years, which is in Tikkun International, and also I'm currently an approved Xian icon poster. I have that icon because I don't want mislead people about my ethnicity.

If you want to delete my vote, well, at least you know where I stand.

[muffler dragon]

Great more people taking stuff out of context. Read the Bible, the Apostles were Jews. There Messianic Judaism tries to adhere to how they worshiped the Messiah.

I didn't take anything out of context. I highlighted your words EXACTLY.

When you attempt to say that MJ is the MOST ORTHODOX, because they WORSHIPPED the Messiah; then you are dealing with an inherent contradiction from a Judaic point of view. There has NEVER been a messiah throughout the history of Judaism and Israel who was EVER (I repeat, EVER!!!) WORSHIPPED. Worshipping a man is idolatry in Judaism. Do you understand that? Thus, the contradiction of terms.

[debi b]

:sigh: Stone, are you Jewish? Have you ever been Jewish? I have read that more Jewish people belong to Reform Judaism than to Conservative or Orthodox Judaism- at least in the USA they do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism
All Jews do not keep kosher and their festival and torah observance varries from person to person.

Here is a quote about Reform Judaism from the wikipedia article:

I find it misleading that this forum calls itself Messianic Jewish and then refuses to recognize the majority of Jews as being Jewish. We don't all keep kosher or celebrate all of the Biblical feasts or fit into your defintion of "Torah observant". But we are Jews. Even I, who am now a born-again Christian am still a Jew. I always have been and always will be. In Christ, that does not matter because we are all one in Christ Jesus where there is no Jew and no Greek.
But on this forum, apparantly it does. :scratch:

Jewish can referr to ethnicity or religion. Our use of this term most often referrs to the religious aspect and not ethnicity.

Traditional Christianity disrespects Torah. We are trying to find a way to distinquish ourselves as followers of Yeshua who respect Torah. By respecting Torah I mean - kosher is a good thing, biblical feasts are a good thing.

I could just be speaking for myself - but that is how I understand things :)

[debi b]

:(

It seems sad to have to even have a list.
Cannot posting just be open, and if someone
is behaving in a less than polite way,
the mods can remove the posts and PM
the poster?

Why not try leaving it open to begin with,
but police it carefully?

I love this idea. I find those folks who really understand as you and some do to be delightful and refreshing. The sad reality is that behind the scenes we are being attacked when we try to police it.

[ChavaK]

Gentile through Yeshua HaMashiach are Jews.



I've never met a Jew who believes this, messianic
or not.....

[debi b]

That is not a religious belief how ever.

It sure can be ;)

[Talmidah]

How come people with socks get to vote more than once??????I am so incredibly confused by this question.

[debi b]

Then why did you even ask the question in the first place?

I would conclude it is merely to stir the pot, and make trouble.


And that is exactly the reason for all the lists, all the rules, all the hassle.

... we don't want to defend why Israel should be allowed to exist and why we don't want to constantly have to battle this issue - and at the same time we don't want to constantly be challenged that Torah is a good thing. IMO people who want to challenge Israel's right to exist sound quite similar to people who want to challenge a Gentile's right to love Torah.

And again maybe I should change "we" to "I"...

[Talmidah]

Tishri1,

When you go to edit the poll, you'll notice that the option is selected to make this public; yet, i can't see anything. I can't see who is voteing for what.When I click on "View Poll Results", I see every person who voted for every option.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m80/Talmidah/MJ-whoisallowed-1.jpg

[ChavaK]

1) There is nothing about race to qualify you to be a Jew.


What does qualify one to be a Jew?

:wave:

[Ivy]

"Messianics, Jews, and a list of approved Christians" is listed twice as a poll choice, isn't it?

If I'm doing my math right, it's 41.67 % in favor of that?

[stone]

"Messianics, Jews, and a list of approved Christians" is listed twice as a poll choice, isn't it?

If I'm doing my math right, it's 41.67 % in favor of that?

your right, and that means as it is now, that's the majority vote.

Good observation, i was doing about 10 things at the same time while i was putting that poll together. :doh:

lol, kinda like i am now. :D

[stone]

When I click on "View Poll Results", I see every person who voted for every option.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m80/Talmidah/MJ-whoisallowed-1.jpg

That's how i can view it as well with my sock. Of course my sock is not voteing, i use it for stuff like this.

Once you vote, you can no longer view the names below the selections.

[Talmidah]

That's how i can view it as well with my sock. Of course my sock is not voteing, i use it for stuff like this.

Once you vote, you can no longer view the names below the selections.Oh I see. Even if you click on the one of the numbers the names don't come up?

OK....this whole sock thing is confusing to me. Especially when I read ContraMundum saying that people with socks shouldn't be allowed to vote twice. And I'm thinking .... socks....like the ones you put on your feet. So I was wondering if one of the lesser know tenets of your religious belief is that one should not wear socks ---- and always wear sandals?

So as I read through the thread, it appears to me that "sock" refers to someone who has two different accounts here?

[stone]

I am so incredibly confused by this question.


Socks are what we call regulars here that create additional accounts. Of course trolls do this as well, and they are easily identified. It would be like if you created another account, and made it with a different faith icon and use it for posting and debateing.

Folks use them to steer opinions in debates to their view, or just to cause grief, like so many in here do from time to time. This is something that happens in all forums so its no big deal really.

[christianmomof3]

Jewish can referr to ethnicity or religion. Our use of this term most often referrs to the religious aspect and not ethnicity.

Traditional Christianity disrespects Torah. We are trying to find a way to distinquish ourselves as followers of Yeshua who respect Torah. By respecting Torah I mean - kosher is a good thing, biblical feasts are a good thing.

I could just be speaking for myself - but that is how I understand things :)
One of the sites that I quoted from earlier gives an example of Messianic Judaism as including the following:

A typical congregation will be composed of Christians who are not Jewish, Messianic Jews who do not practice Jewish customs, and Messianic Jews who follow strict orthodox practices such as kosher methods of food preparation and eating. http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm (http://www.allaboutreligion.org/messianic-jew.htm)


For what it is worth, I am not part of traditional Christianity. I do not celebrate Christmas and Easter or follow other traditions of men.

I think that the example that I quoted above fits with what I have heard about MJ from other people in other places.

Many MJ synagogues include couples where one spouse is Jewish and the other spouse is Christian. They find MJ a good fit for them.

I am not suggesting that you allow people to "disrespect Torah".
However, requiring people who are allowed to post to be only those who keep kosher and "torah observant" is a more narrow membership than most messianic synagogues have.

Rather than making keeping kosher, feasts and torah observance requirements for people who can post, why not make a forum specific rule that those things are to be discussed in a respectful manner?

[debi b]

Oh I see. Even if you click on the one of the numbers the names don't come up?

yes they do :)

So as I read through the thread, it appears to me that "sock" refers to someone who has two different accounts here?

yes :wave:

I think it is important to remember that the purpose of making these rules while it may seem ridiculous and exclusive is to give power to police (I think behind the scenes is uglier at times than what we see here) - without that this place will become like GT and I don't think anyone is interested in that.

Nobody wants to make people feel "outside" (I do have a deep appreciation for what that is like) but we have to find a way to have a place to be where we are not constantly fighting for our right to exist. I hope people can understand that :prayer: I think that is what we are trying to do.

[stone]

What does qualify one to be a Jew?

:wave:

Anyone that has the "Star of David" icon.

[christianmomof3]

yes they do :)
I think it is important to remember that the purpose of making these rules while it may seem ridiculous and exclusive is to give power to police (I think behind the scenes is uglier at times than what we see here) - without that this place will become like GT and I don't think anyone is interested in that.

Nobody wants to make people feel "outside" (I do have a deep appreciation for what that is like) but we have to find a way to have a place to be where we are not constantly fighting for our right to exist. I hope people can understand that :prayer: I think that is what we are trying to do.
Then it would seem more sensible to monitor how the topics are discussed - like rules to respect the topics rather than to tell the Jews that they are not Jewish enough to be considered Messianic or things like that.
From the definitions I have seen, Messianic Jews are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah and I am a Jew and I believe that Jesus is the Messiah and yet over and over at this forum I am told that I am not acceptable.

I guarantee you that if I were to walk into any Messianic Jewish synagogue I would be welcomed with open arms and I would not be told that I am not allowed to be there because I don't keep kosher or don't fit in with their definition of "torah observant."

And this is not just about me, but about all of the people that ya'll are leaving out if you keep to those rules.

[stone]

One of the sites that I quoted from earlier gives an example of Messianic Judaism as including the following:

For what it is worth, I am not part of traditional Christianity. I do not celebrate Christmas and Easter or follow other traditions of men.

I think that the example that I quoted above fits with what I have heard about MJ from other people in other places.

Many MJ synagogues include couples where one spouse is Jewish and the other spouse is Christian. They find MJ a good fit for them.

I am not suggesting that you allow people to "disrespect Torah".
However, requiring people who are allowed to post to be only those who keep kosher and "torah observant" is a more narrow membership than most messianic synagogues have.

Rather than making keeping kosher, feasts and torah observance requirements for people who can post, why not make a forum specific rule that those things are to be discussed in a respectful manner?





One of the major new changes to the forum is that there is no longer a "christians only" section. The debateing issue is what's being descussed here. Now, with the new changes, anyone can go into any forum anywhere in this site and post. The post are limited to the Specific rules of that forum, but we can not restrict anyone at all from entering our forum and makeing fellowship post or asking questions. This means anyone with any kind of back ground can enter the forum, what's restricted is debate.

We are not going to allow anyone to come in here and start makeing a bunch of post that speak ill of Messianics, or teaching evolution, stuff like that.

[debi b]

One of the sites that I quoted from earlier gives an example of Messianic Judaism as including the following:

For what it is worth, I am not part of traditional Christianity. I do not celebrate Christmas and Easter or follow other traditions of men.

I think that the example that I quoted above fits with what I have heard about MJ from other people in other places.

Many MJ synagogues include couples where one spouse is Jewish and the other spouse is Christian. They find MJ a good fit for them.

I am not suggesting that you allow people to "disrespect Torah".
However, requiring people who are allowed to post to be only those who keep kosher and "torah observant" is a more narrow membership than most messianic synagogues have.

Rather than making keeping kosher, feasts and torah observance requirements for people who can post, why not make a forum specific rule that those things are to be discussed in a respectful manner?





I would agree that is what most groups look like :) Please don't think that I alone am defining anything. For what it is worth I know the leader of UMJC and used to attend his congregation. I also know that as time has gone on the whole of the movement is continuing to define itself. When I first started attending this group in the 80's there was such joy. Now there is much attention paid to who has the right to declare who has the right to declare. While I appreciate all of that - we are trying to decide things for this group :wave:

[christianmomof3]

One of the major new changes to the forum is that there is no longer a "christians only" section. The debateing issue is what's being descussed here. Now, with the new changes, anyone can go into any forum anywhere in this site and post. The post are limited to the Specific rules of that forum, but we can not restrict anyone at all from entering our forum and makeing fellowship post or asking questions. This means anyone with any kind of back ground can enter the forum, what's restricted is debate.

We are not going to allow anyone to come in here and start makeing a bunch of post that speak ill of Messianics, or teaching evolution, stuff like that.
:confused: :scratch: Ok, so if there is no longer a Christians only section and anyone can post anywhere, then what is the use or purpose of this poll anyway?

[Wags]

"Messianics, Jews, and a list of approved Christians" is listed twice as a poll choice, isn't it?

If I'm doing my math right, it's 41.67 % in favor of that?
Well since voters can select multiple options - having it listed twice sort of defeats the purpose of getting a true picture of what the members here want. If there is a way to elimate the double votes, great, if not then the poll should be invalid.

[stone]

Good question.

The power of decision has been given to the members of each sub-forum.

The polls are being used so that the members of the forum can vote on how they would like this forum to be run.

The issue of debateing is being voted on here. The outcome of this poll will limit who can debate in this forum. Anyone can post fellowshipping and ask questions.

[stone]

Well since voters can select multiple options - having it listed twice sort of defeats the purpose of getting a true picture of what the members here want. If there is a way to elimate the double votes, great, if not then the poll should be invalid.

Multiple options should be disabled, I'll look into this.

When the poll closes, i'll remove votes from socks, so far i haven't seen any sock votes in this poll. Votes will also be removed from those that are not Messianic.

[Talmidah]

Well since voters can select multiple options - having it listed twice sort of defeats the purpose of getting a true picture of what the members here want. If there is a way to elimate the double votes, great, if not then the poll should be invalid.In the poll I'm looking at in this thread, only one option is allowed.

[debi b]

:confused: :scratch: Ok, so if there is no longer a Christians only section and anyone can post anywhere, then what is the use or purpose of this poll anyway?

I would like you to know that from me personally I would like to see every person welcome, every person and discussion handled with dignity and respect. I would love to see all the snide remarks and scoffing be self-disciplined right off the screen. That is how I really feel :hug:

[christianmomof3]

So, are any of the other congregational forums doing polls on who can post or debate there?
Is that allowed?

[simchat_torah]

1) There is nothing about race to qualify you to be a Jew.
Its funny how people want to make their own definitions rejecting every known encyclopedia.

2) There is no partial pick and choose.
I would contend that most messianics do in fact pick and choose which mitzvot they follow. Some light Sabbath candles, some wear tzitzit, some go to the mikvah, some work on sabbath, some say sunday is the sabbath, some only follow those laws which jesus reinstated, etc. etc. etc. It really is a "pick and choose" by your own determination.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but it is simply a fact.

You don't even know anything about the whole context of the Bible. The Torah is the foundation of the Bible and Jesus Christ is the completion:

<A href="http://bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm" target=_blank>http://bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm

I've read the entire bible more times than I care to count. I've studied formally and informally in both Christian and Jewish higher educational circles. While I don't claim to know everything, to state I don't know anything is not only insulting, but ignorant of you.
3) No, you are lost.I highly doubt it. I garuntee I have been around MJ longer than you, not to mention this forum. I know exactly where I am.

4) If you read Revelations and Romans honestly and walk away from Rabbinical Judaism you will realize that Jew and Gentile alike from all nation are going to be in the mix of the Saved and Damned.Whatever may be my view of Revelations... is completely irrelevant that you want to make Gentiles into Jews.

5) The sacrifices have all been fulfilled in Yeshua HaMashiach. You however want to justify yourself with the Law. Sorry sweetheart but you are under the curse of the the law.Then why follow it at all?
But, moreover, you put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that I justify myself with the law. Can you please kindly point out where I stated such?

If you can't find where I stated that I am justified by the law, then please don't make up words and put them in my mouth.

6) Work do no get you into Heaven. It is by Faith.As all Jews would agree.

7) I recommend you read the Gospels.
I have. More than hundreds of times. Still doesn't say that any Gentile who believes in Jesus and follows a few random mitzvot are suddenly Jews.

That, my friend, is replacement theology.

You, my friend, believe in Replacement Theology.

[simchat_torah]

Nope, just as discussing Israeli murder of civilians isn’t anti-Jewish or even anti-Israeli.
HAHAHAHA, I just realized I was discussing anti-Israel propaganda with someone (MezzaMorta) who has a Cannabis leaf as the background to their "christian" profile. Maybe he's a religious toker? Pot for Jesus anyone? lol....

More importantly though, how did someone who is Catholic (not affiliated with the MJ forum at all?) get a vote in the poll????

*confused*

[Ivy]

Well since voters can select multiple options - having it listed twice sort of defeats the purpose of getting a true picture of what the members here want. If there is a way to elimate the double votes, great, if not then the poll should be invalid.

Post #92 seems to indicate that no one who voted "Messianic, Jews and approved Christians" voted that option twice.

[simchat_torah]

Well since voters can select multiple options - having it listed twice sort of defeats the purpose of getting a true picture of what the members here want. If there is a way to elimate the double votes, great, if not then the poll should be invalid.I would agree with Ivy that you merely add up the two options as they are exactly the same thing (whoever made the poll accidently created the option twice). Considering everyone has only voted once, the two options combined would be the proper way of adding up the poll.

[stone]

So, are any of the other congregational forums doing polls on who can post or debate there?
Is that allowed?

yes and yes,

All the other sub-forums have already decided that no one can debate in their sub-forums unless they are a member of that sub-forum, with the exception of the non-denom.'s;

[Talmidah]

Tally so far of messianic votes:

Messianics, Jews and a list of approved Christians. 4
Messianics, and a vote for each Jew and Christian to add to the list of who can debate. 2
Messianics, and a list of approved Jews and Christians. 1
Only Messianics and a list of approved Christians can debate. 1
Only Messianics are allowed to debate. 1
Other 1

[stone]

I would agree with Ivy that you merely add up the two options as they are exactly the same thing (whoever made the poll accidently created the option twice). Considering everyone has only voted once, the two options combined would be the proper way of adding up the poll.

yes, and i created the poll. :doh:

I think at the time i was on the phone, reading email, reading over the poll before i posted it, working on a pc a few hundred miles away, and a few other things here and some on the bench area. :blush: I need a few more arms i think. lol

[simchat_torah]

I think at the time i was on the phone, reading email, reading over the poll before i posted it, working on a pc a few hundred miles away, and a few other things here and some on the bench area. :blush: I need a few more arms i think. lol
hehe, don't worry about it. It looks like Talmidah has it totalled properly for ya ;)

[ChavaK]

Anyone that has the "Star of David" icon.

Hmmm.....I think MJG was thinking something
different....:wave:

[Talmidah]

hehe, don't worry about it. It looks like Talmidah has it totalled properly for ya ;)I gotta do something while I procrastinate getting ready for work. :blush:

[Ivy]

yes, and i created the poll. :doh:

I think at the time i was on the phone, reading email, reading over the poll before i posted it, working on a pc a few hundred miles away, and a few other things here and some on the bench area. :blush: I need a few more arms i think. lol

I'm relieved to know you weren't driving at the same time ^_^ Whew, the roads are safe!

[stone]

I'm relieved to know you weren't driving at the same time ^_^ Whew, the roads are safe!

My wireless stuff has been ordered; but i won't go there! :wave:

[simchat_torah]

My wireless stuff has been ordered; but i won't go there! :wave:My wife always jokes about how well I can 'multi-task'. I'll be eating a burger, driving, changing cd's, and talking on the phone at the same time... all while driving more safely than anyone else on the road.

She always jokingly asks if I want a newspaper, or if I want to build a sandcastle while I drive, lol.

[muffler dragon]

My wife always jokes about how well I can 'multi-task'. I'll be eating a burger, driving, changing cd's, and talking on the phone at the same time... all while driving more safely than anyone else on the road.

I always had the sneaky suspicion that you were more feminine than masculine. :P

j/k

[stone]

My wife always jokes about how well I can 'multi-task'. I'll be eating a burger, driving, changing cd's, and talking on the phone at the same time... all while driving more safely than anyone else on the road.

She always jokingly asks if I want a newspaper, or if I want to build a sandcastle while I drive, lol.

rotfl!

[simchat_torah]

You just say that because I wear a dress.

[Talmidah]

I always had the sneaky suspicion that you were more feminine than masculine. You picked up on that too? :P

[Tishri1]

Multiple options should be disabled, I'll look into this.

When the poll closes, i'll remove votes from socks, so far i haven't seen any sock votes in this poll. Votes will also be removed from those that are not Messianic.changing it to take out multiple votes after some have already voted invalidates the poll too:sorry: sorry about that, I did the same kind of thing before a few times and had to start over again

So, are any of the other congregational forums doing polls on who can post or debate there?
Is that allowed?yep most of them are almost done with the wikis and FSRs:tutu::tutu::tutu:



More importantly though, how did someone who is Catholic (not affiliated with the MJ forum at all?) get a vote in the poll????

*confused*we just kindly delete all socks and non members votes from the total count when it is closed

[Talmidah]

changing it to take out multiple votes after some have already voted invalidates the poll too:sorry: sorry about that, I did the same kind of thing before a few times and had to start over againBut Tishri, there is only 1 vote possible in this poll and if you look at the votes, you will see that nobody there has a vote in more than 1 option.

[Sephania]

Anyone else notice that #3 and # 7 are exactly the same, yet 5 different people voted on it. :D

Only Messianics are allowed to debate.
Only Messianics and Jews are allowed to debate.
Messianics, Jews and a list of approved Christians.
Only Messianics and a list of approved Christians can debate.
Messianics, and a list of approved Jews and Christians.
Messianics, and a vote for each Jew and Christian to add to the list of who can debate.
Messianics, Jews and a list of approved Christians.
Messianics, Christians and a list of approved Jews.
None of the above
Other, please explain in a post.
Also , I have a question, is this for a debating forum or for this main forum, it could really change the vote depending on where this rule is for.

[Tishri1]

One of the sites that I quoted from earlier gives an example of Messianic Judaism as including the following:

For what it is worth, I am not part of traditional Christianity. I do not celebrate Christmas and Easter or follow other traditions of men.

I think that the example that I quoted above fits with what I have heard about MJ from other people in other places.

Many MJ synagogues include couples where one spouse is Jewish and the other spouse is Christian. They find MJ a good fit for them.

I am not suggesting that you allow people to "disrespect Torah".
However, requiring people who are allowed to post to be only those who keep kosher and "torah observant" is a more narrow membership than most messianic synagogues have.

Rather than making keeping kosher, feasts and torah observance requirements for people who can post, why not make a forum specific rule that those things are to be discussed in a respectful manner?



this seems reasonable to me for those who are MJ or Jewish or Jewish Christians as long as they withhold judgment or debate from our basic beliefs (I would add that Yeshua is divine to that list as I can see that coming into the mix as well:thumbsup:) then we should include them into the posting crowd.....BTW a reminder that ALL can post ....we are setting up WHO can post freely (teaching and debating included) ,and who is restricted to fellowship posts and asking questions:thumbsup::wave:

yes they do :)



yes :wave:

I think it is important to remember that the purpose of making these rules while it may seem ridiculous and exclusive is to give power to police (I think behind the scenes is uglier at times than what we see here) - without that this place will become like GT and I don't think anyone is interested in that.

Nobody wants to make people feel "outside" (I do have a deep appreciation for what that is like) but we have to find a way to have a place to be where we are not constantly fighting for our right to exist. I hope people can understand that :prayer: I think that is what we are trying to do.yes amen

I voted because I attend Adat Chaim Messianic Synagogue for the last 13 years, which is in Tikkun International, and also I'm currently an approved Xian icon poster. I have that icon because I don't want mislead people about my ethnicity.

If you want to delete my vote, well, at least you know where I stand.if you were on our list before your still on, mostly socks and obvious Non members (those who dont have a vested interest in this place for fellowship purposes, and obviously those against MJ doctrine or Jews or Israel would be considered non members till our wiki is established I would say)

[Wags]

Teaching and debating are really the root of the issue. Do we want people that might have been born Jewish but profess a christian faith that is quite different from messianic belief teaching here?

If a vistor comes asking about messianic beliefs - are they going to hear from messianics, or are non-messianics going to be giving their opinion (which might be contradictory to messianic beliefs)? How would a visitor distinguish - lots of people fail to look at icons and assume that any response is from a person who is a memeber of a particular sub-forum.

[chunkofcoal]

"a list of approved Christians"
"a list of approved Jews"
"a list of approved Jews and Christians"

:sigh:

[stone]

Anyone else notice that #3 and # 7 are exactly the same, yet 5 different people voted on it. :D

Only Messianics are allowed to debate.
Only Messianics and Jews are allowed to debate.
Messianics, Jews and a list of approved Christians.
Only Messianics and a list of approved Christians can debate.
Messianics, and a list of approved Jews and Christians.
Messianics, and a vote for each Jew and Christian to add to the list of who can debate.
Messianics, Jews and a list of approved Christians.
Messianics, Christians and a list of approved Jews.
None of the above
Other, please explain in a post.Also , I have a question, is this for a debating forum or for this main forum, it could really change the vote depending on where this rule is for.

This is for our MJ forum overall.

[christianmomof3]

Teaching and debating are really the root of the issue. Do we want people that might have been born Jewish but profess a christian faith that is quite different from messianic belief teaching here?

If a vistor comes asking about messianic beliefs - are they going to hear from messianics, or are non-messianics going to be giving their opinion (which might be contradictory to messianic beliefs)? How would a visitor distinguish - lots of people fail to look at icons and assume that any response is from a person who is a memeber of a particular sub-forum.
That is a good question. I imagine that it is easier in the denominational forums where each denomination has it's own set of rules and it is easier to say "this is what the ______believe and do." As has been brought up before, MJ is not a "denomination" , but rather a "movement" or something and it does not have set rules. In fact, MJ synagogues and belief and practice systems can range from what would be almost totally Jewish, to what would be almost totally evangelical Christian and all things in between.

So, what defines the MJ and makes the MJ different from Jews and other Christians?
It is my understanding that MJ believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That is different from the Jewish religion.
The differences from MJ and the variety of Christian groups is what varries.
It is my understanding that MJ support Jews and support Israel.
It is also my understanding that many (but not all) MJ keep kosher, keep the Sabbath and keep the feasts.
It is my understanding that MJ embrace the Torah and the Old Testament. That is good. All Christians should do that.

Anyway, there is a variety of beliefs and practices among the MJ synagogues and among MJ groups.
That is ok.

Some visitors to this forum ask about MJ beliefs.
The answers that they receive will vary because there is a variety of practices among the MJ.
If someone posts an answer that is contrary to MJ practices, I imagine that the MJ people will set them straight on the issue and I hope they would do so politely.

Perhaps those who answer questions could clarify their position and say - I meet with a MJ group or I do not meet with a MJ group or something.

Some visitors to this forum ask about Jewish beliefs.
I think the Jews should be able to answer those questions.

I think that perhaps in making the "rules" here ya'll should look at some of the actual MJ groups whether it be MJAA or some of the other groups or synagogues and follow their guidelines rather than make up more restrictive guidelines than the general MJ population.

I also think that those who do vote should be ones who have been registered for a certain amount of time which would eliminate all those "socks" and other laundry.

[Wags]

I also think that those who do vote should be ones who have been registered for a certain amount of time which would eliminate all those "socks" and other laundry.

LOL!!! :D

[visionary]

"a list of approved Christians"
"a list of approved Jews"
"a list of approved Jews and Christians"

:sigh:Don't worry .. you are one of the approved.:hug:

[simchat_torah]

Some visitors to this forum ask about Jewish beliefs.
I think the Jews should be able to answer those questions.
This makes me a happy camper :D

[ContraMundum]

Teaching and debating are really the root of the issue. Do we want people that might have been born Jewish but profess a christian faith that is quite different from messianic belief teaching here?

Wow...who could that be in reference to? (We should start an "Ask Contra" thread, eh? You could answer the questions for me.) :)

Couldn't possibly be me. I agree with the position of most MJ organisations. Perhaps not your organisation on every point though.

If a vistor comes asking about messianic beliefs - are they going to hear from messianics, or are non-messianics going to be giving their opinion (which might be contradictory to messianic beliefs)? How would a visitor distinguish - lots of people fail to look at icons and assume that any response is from a person who is a memeber of a particular sub-forum.

Good point. The problem is, as it stands, visitors can't distinguish anyway.

There's a lot of vast diversity amongst the people who have MJ icons- some of you guys have totally different religions, as I've discovered.

That is a good question. I imagine that it is easier in the denominational forums where each denomination has it's own set of rules and it is easier to say "this is what the ______believe and do." As has been brought up before, MJ is not a "denomination" , but rather a "movement" or something and it does not have set rules. In fact, MJ synagogues and belief and practice systems can range from what would be almost totally Jewish, to what would be almost totally evangelical Christian and all things in between.

That is an astute observation, christianmom.

Here's how I see it.

a) MJs readily and rightly state that they are not a denomination, but rather a movement.

b) But, there are many MJ denominations- each very diverse from others, but yet some fairly similar.

c) A lot of judgement and intolerance has been shown from one MJ to another about their denominational positions. There are a few who have more readily hit the report button over a doctrinal difference of opinion- opinions which are held by and agreeable to many MJs.

d) Other forums have an equal, if not greater, diversity. Take STR or WP or others for example, where people can't even agree on moral issues. Yet, they have a lesser degree of reporting and bickering.

Why?

Answer:

Because people need to stop trying to define who is "in" and who is "out" based on their denominational allegiances.

Messianics need to stop telling other Messianics from other groups what they think "true" Messianic Judiasm is.

Here's some food for thought from a poor Jew (me) who desperately wants to see MJism mature into a sound, respected movement (and yes, I think it is going along that path well in many places- even achieving the respect of other denominations, in many cases).

I think we had it right before 7/7/7.

It wasn't perfect, but it was improving. Reports were basically coming from a few people, often the same ones, over the very points I've brought up already.

We almost had it right...only a few were causing problems.

Now, no one is happy and a few are on vendettas against others- the staff are noticing it now, it's gotten so bad.

So, to my mind, if that earlier definition of MJism is maintained, worked at, and the culture of reporting is grown out of, this could end up peaceful like other forums.

My challenge to the MJ forum is this: go back, review what was there before 7/7/7, and use that as the foundation for the forum.

BUT- in addition- let the orthodox Jews and non-Trins post freely.

Have banned topics like anti-Israel, anti-MJism (to be defined in the broader sense- eg. posts saying that it is wrong to keep mitzvot at all), and anti-semitism.

I think it could work.

[simchat_torah]

I think we had it right before 7/7/7.
There was also a general consensus from many 'outside' members (those not of an MJ icon) that the moderation was heavy handed or that they weren't free to post... many left (or tried to *looks at Talmidah*).

So while a small sect of the community who happened to bear the proper icon were happy, the vast majority who didn't 'belong' felt trampled on. I never really posted during this time, but occasionally would stop by because friends would send me a pm (and my email would fill up with pm messages).

Moreover, Erwin made a decree that was to be carried down through every forum. CF is to be more free and open, despite what the moderators of each individual section want to do with their section. How does this go forth? I dunno, but I'm interested to see where it lands.

I think your idea here:
My challenge to the MJ forum is this: go back, review what was there before 7/7/7, and use that as the foundation for the forum.

BUT- in addition- let the orthodox Jews and non-Trins post freelyMight really relieve a lot of tension the Jews and non-trins have felt in the past. I agree with you that it could work, but who knows? :D

-Yafet

[muffler dragon]

Wow...who could that be in reference to? (We should start an "Ask Contra" thread, eh? You could answer the questions for me.) :)


I didn't know you were born Jewish.

[ContraMundum]

There was also a general consensus from many 'outside' members (those not of an MJ icon) that the moderation was heavy handed or that they weren't free to post... many left (or tried to *looks at Talmidah*).

I agree. That was the flaw, as it turns out.

So while a small sect of the community who happened to bear the proper icon were happy, the vast majority who didn't 'belong' felt trampled on. I never really posted during this time, but occasionally would stop by because friends would send me a pm (and my email would fill up with pm messages).

To be less than candid, if I may, the reports decreased, except for a few people who reported a lot, quite substantially. In other words, the reports kept coming, but only from the same few people, and far too often.

It seemed as though the bulk of the forum was content, but would always have to bear a cross caused by the malcontent. This was acceptable, I think, to most.

It will never be perfect. It's the internet. :)

Might really relieve a lot of tension the Jews and non-trins have felt in the past. I agree with you that it could work, but who knows? :D

-Yafet

If I can help in any way to bring peaceful converation between God's peoples, than I will. That's my buzz. :)

[ContraMundum]

I didn't know you were born Jewish.

Didn't you know that from the other forum?

:)

[muffler dragon]

I agree. That was the flaw, as it turns out.

A flaw I learned to live with from a very vast difference in space. ;)

If I can help in any way to bring peaceful converation between God's peoples, than I will. That's my buzz. :)

Personally, I admire what I have seen from your moderation of this forum thus far. That's not a "kiss-up" as I have nothing to gain from noting it. I just feel that I can post in here (respectfully), and not be looking over my shoulder waiting for a warning just because I stepped foot in. It's nice.

[muffler dragon]

Didn't you know that from the other forum?

:)

Nope. I never stayed around long enough. The hammer of "justice" started to swing too heavily for my taste there. :D

[ContraMundum]

Thanks MD.

I really hope and pray that it works out here for you.

[christianmomof3]

BUT- in addition- let the orthodox Jews and non-Trins post freely.

:sigh: So then the Messianic Jewish forum would still be leaving out the Conservative and Reform Jews which there are many more of than Orthodox.

Why?

If you have certain topics that are banned from debate isn't that enough?

Many if not most Messianic Jewish congregations accept Conservative and Reform Jews, not just Orthodox ones.

[Henaynei]

Originally Posted by MessianicJewishGuy http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=37090347#post37090347)

Gentile through Yeshua HaMashiach are Jews.I've never met a Jew who believes this, messianic
or not..... I'm not Jewish and I totally agree with you ChavaK! No where in scripture can one find support for that POV. Neither the OT or the NT.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

[Henaynei]

And that is exactly the reason for all the lists, all the rules, all the hassle.

... we don't want to defend why Israel should be allowed to exist and why we don't want to constantly have to battle this issue - and at the same time we don't want to constantly be challenged that Torah is a good thing. IMO people who want to challenge Israel's right to exist sound quite similar to people who want to challenge a Gentile's right to love Torah.

And again maybe I should change "we" to "I"...you can add me to the list of agreement on this sentiment!

[ContraMundum]

:sigh: So then the Messianic Jewish forum would still be leaving out the Conservative and Reform Jews which there are many more of than Orthodox.

Why?

If you have certain topics that are banned from debate isn't that enough?

Many if not most Messianic Jewish congregations accept Conservative and Reform Jews, not just Orthodox ones.


I agree with you. I was using "orthodox" in lower case in the hope that people would take that to mean all Jews who are still following Jewish halacha as they understand it. I just couldn't think of the right word to distinguish them from MJs for the purpose of this forum.

I meant all Jews, Reform, Masorti or Conservative, Chassidic, and modern Orthodox.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

I'm not Jewish and I totally agree with you ChavaK! No where in scripture can one find support for that POV. Neither the OT or the NT.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Look further and it isn't physically. It is spiritually. Roman 10 for example. Yeshua HaMashiach makes Jew and Gentile one therefore no difference except physical ancestry.

[Henaynei]

Look further and it isn't physically. It is spiritually. Roman 10 for example. Yeshua HaMashiach makes Jew and Gentile one therefore no difference except physical ancestry.nay - He stated that neither has a preferential standing in attaining the salvific relationship - in THIS respect they are one - but He and the entire rest of scripture clearly show that otherwise there are 2 distinctions:

Acts 21
Jews who believe

1) 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

and Gentiles who believe

2) 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."



Since both groups are believers they both have equal salvific standing. However, the Jews ARE distinct from the Gentiles and have a separate calling that emanates from G-d's relationship and promise to Avraham and ratified and sealed at Sinai.

[MessianicJewishGuy]

nay - He stated that neither has a preferential standing in attaining the salvific relationship - in THIS respect they are one - but He and the entire rest of scripture clearly show that otherwise there are 2 distinctions:

Acts 21
Jews who believe

1) 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

and Gentiles who believe

2) 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."



Since both groups are believers they both have equal salvific standing. However, the Jews ARE distinct from the Gentiles and have a separate calling that emanates from G-d's relationship and promise to Avraham and ratified and sealed at Sinai.
There are distinctions but the Bible says in a nutshell that Jews are not above the Gentile nor viceversa. Sorry but Jews tend to Judge Gentiles as they don't like it. So the Jewish community needs to get their acts straight because G-d is going to separate both Saved and Unsaved Jew/Gentile under the same regulations. After that there will be no more Gentile. It will all be one.

[Henaynei]

There are distinctions but the Bible says in a nutshell that Jews are not above the Gentile nor viceversa.Above????? *where* did I say or suggest above????:scratch: What is the psychological underpinning that so consistantly interperts "different" to mean "above?" :confused: :doh: :scratch: :sigh:

You said Gentile + Yeshua = Jew -- this is error and not supported by scripture :)

I find that those who hold such a position *often* equate being told they are not and can not be Jewish through their belief in Yeshua with being told that they are below Jews somehow. This betrays a visceral belief not supported anywhere in scripture; that Jews are the "betters" of the Gentile believers and that Jews have a "better" position before HaShem.

This is the core belief that has so often lead to anti-semitism, pogroms and some two house doctrine by gentiles.... in an effort to claim for themselves that which they perceive the Jews to possess ....

Sorry but Jews tend to Judge Gentiles as they don't like it. So the Jewish community needs to get their acts straight because G-d is going to separate both Saved and Unsaved Jew/Gentile under the same regulations. After that there will be no more Gentile. It will all be one Hahaha!! And Christians don't tend to "look down on the Jews?" Is it only those Jews who don't have their "act straight?" Really?? :scratch:

Yes, G-d will sift humanity to separate the chaff (unsaved) from the wheat (saved). But in percentages I guarantee you that the percentage of Jews among the wheat will far exceed that of the gentiles among the wheat. AND G-d will remain to hold the Jews in a unique and special calling separate from that of the believing Gentiles. It is the Jews from among whom He will call the 144,000 who go out with His final call before He establishes the Messianic Kingdom, not from among the Gentiles. This is G-d's call to make and not ours (yours or mine) to question or challenge. He is G-d.

I personally consider it a high honor to be allowed to travel among the camp of the Jews (as a messianic with growing observance) - to be called by G-d to serve and protect His Chosen people, the Jews.

b'Shalom
Henaynei
a believing Gentile

[simchat_torah]

Sorry but Jews tend to Judge Gentiles...WHAT?
So the Jewish community needs to get their acts straight...I see a LOT of judgements made against the Jews, but rarely do I EVER (if at all???) see the Jews judging the Gentile (Christian) community.

You've got to be kidding me.

Moreover, if you're specifically speaking of Messianic Judaism, Jews are extremely rare in the movement.

[simchat_torah]

Above????? *where* did I say or suggest above????:scratch: Why is the psychological underpinning that so consistantly interperts "different" to mean "above?" :confused: :doh: :scratch: :sigh:
To some people, "Different" will always mean "Better".

Some want it all, and will take it by force if need be.

[muffler dragon]

WHAT?
I see a LOT of judgements made against the Jews, but rarely do I EVER (if at all???) see the Jews judging the Gentile (Christian) community.

You've got to be kidding me.

Moreover, if you're specifically speaking of Messianic Judaism, Jews are extremely rare in the movement.

It's called "projection". MJG projects his feelings onto other groups, and then lambasts them for it.

[simchat_torah]

You know, I never really did get a reply to this MJG:
MJG said:
"5) The sacrifices have all been fulfilled in Yeshua HaMashiach. You however want to justify yoursel