Holiness is not....

[Amisk]

"First of all, Holiness is not necessarily a state in which there is perpetual, rapturous joy. Isaiah 53:3 tells us that Jesus was a man of sorrow and acquainted with grief’…."
2. Holiness is not a state of freedom from temptation.
Paul tells us that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are,…"
3.Holiness is not a state of freedom from infirmities. It (holiness) does not produce a perfect head but a perfect heart.
4.Holiness is not a state of freedom from affliction. The saints of all ages have been chosen ‘in the furnace of affliction’ (Isaiah 35:10). Job and Jeremiah and Daniel and Paul and the mighty army of martyrs have, and shall always come up through great tribulations.
5. Holiness is not a state in which there is no further development. When the heart is purified it develops more rapidly than ever before. Spiritual development comes through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the heart, and the holy soul is in a condition to receive such revelations constantly, and since the finite can never exhaust the infinite, these revelations will continue for ever and prove an increasing and never-ending source of development.
6. ….Holiness is a state of conformity to the divine nature. God is love, and there is a sense in which a holy man can be said to be love. He is like God, not in God’s natural perfection of power and wisdom and knowledge and omnipresence, in patience, humility, self-control, purity of heart and love. As the drop out of the ocean is like the ocean, not in its bigness, but in its essence, so is the holy soul like God…."Commissioner Samuel Logan Brengle D.D. O.F.

[Redheadedstepchild]

Thank you for this. I know I find the concept of holiness confusing and out of reach. Your post is helpful.

[Concetta]

:)

[ContraMundum]

I love Brengle's words.

For years I've been looking for hard copies of his major writings. So hard to get these days.

[Holyroller125]

Greetings,

I'm Pentecostal, and many believe that how you dress is holiness. Furthermore, many heavily preach to the women, and the first things we say is no mini skirts.

Anyway, our church was invited to a United Methodist Church. If you do not mind me asking, a girl in a UMC church can still be considered saved, even if she continues to wear mini skirts. As long as the girl is comfortable, if she decides to wear a mini skirt even to church, the church not only has a come as you are attitude, but the church also accepts her. And, as long as a girl is pure and holy in her heart, and yet she wears a mini skirt; she is still considered holy based on eternal holiness and what God does. Is this all true concerning this in the UMC?

Thank You,

Greg

[Redheadedstepchild]

Greetings,

I'm Pentecostal, and many believe that how you dress is holiness. Furthermore, many heavily preach to the women, and the first things we say is no mini skirts.

Anyway, our church was invited to a United Methodist Church. If you do not mind me asking, a girl in a UMC church can still be considered saved, even if she continues to wear mini skirts. As long as the girl is comfortable, if she decides to wear a mini skirt even to church, the church not only has a come as you are attitude, but the church also accepts her. And, as long as a girl is pure and holy in her heart, and yet she wears a mini skirt; she is still considered holy based on eternal holiness and what God does. Is this all true concerning this in the UMC?

Thank You,

Greg
As far as I know. It also seemed to be true in the Pentecostal Holiness church I attended. My observation is proper dress seems to be dictated by individual congregations rather than a denomination as a whole. My personal opinion is that people confuse holiness with legalism.

[Kryzoz]

Redheadedstepchild
No truer words have ever been spoken.
My opinion is that if a girl has the clothes and she is under the age of 18, the parents have bought it for her or allowed her to buy it, otherwise she would not be wearing it. Secondly, there are more important things to worry about than the clothes you put on your back. Christ says "Is not the body more than clothes...." Thirdly, holiness is the state of your heart towards God and when God is working on you it is like an evolution. Eventually, if the girl is saved, she will put away clothes that draw undue attention to herself as well as words and actions. This may take months or even years, but God is not limited by the concept of time.

[Holyroller125]

As far as I know. It also seemed to be true in the Pentecostal Holiness church I attended. My observation is proper dress seems to be dictated by individual congregations rather than a denomination as a whole. My personal opinion is that people confuse holiness with legalism.

Well said. Holiness is God. Holiness is what God does. Holiness is not a tangible measuring stick that I establish, but rather, Holiness is a work wrought in people. Unfortunately, people try the tangible way to think they are holy, and they really have a shallow/surface view if not really no view of holiness at all.

Redheadedstepchild
No truer words have ever been spoken.
My opinion is that if a girl has the clothes and she is under the age of 18, the parents have bought it for her or allowed her to buy it, otherwise she would not be wearing it. Secondly, there are more important things to worry about than the clothes you put on your back. Christ says "Is not the body more than clothes...." Thirdly, holiness is the state of your heart towards God and when God is working on you it is like an evolution. Eventually, if the girl is saved, she will put away clothes that draw undue attention to herself as well as words and actions. This may take months or even years, but God is not limited by the concept of time.

I concur. God is more concerned about you than the clothes that you wear. Even in the Old Testament, 613 laws did not even state a length or a requirement of clothing to make one holy. If the Old Testament did not make it clear, why do ministers under the New Testament covenant and anointing think that clothing is a big deal? Likewise, I concur with you. Holiness is the state of the heart and not a measurement of your hemline. Some girls can wear what they do in good taste. Nevertheless, I am fortunate that I was able to get the revelation that holiness is really inward, your heart, your purity, and not a measuring stick that anyone establishes but Jesus Christ Himself.

God Bless,

Greg

[GraceSeeker]

So much wisdom here. It's rather encouraging.

[Jadis40]

Greetings,

I'm Pentecostal, and many believe that how you dress is holiness. Furthermore, many heavily preach to the women, and the first things we say is no mini skirts.

Anyway, our church was invited to a United Methodist Church. If you do not mind me asking, a girl in a UMC church can still be considered saved, even if she continues to wear mini skirts. As long as the girl is comfortable, if she decides to wear a mini skirt even to church, the church not only has a come as you are attitude, but the church also accepts her. And, as long as a girl is pure and holy in her heart, and yet she wears a mini skirt; she is still considered holy based on eternal holiness and what God does. Is this all true concerning this in the UMC?

Thank You,

Greg

Personally, I question the wisdom in wearing things like this. I'm no "prude" by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe in modesty. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable wearing a mini skirt to church, let alone wearing one under any circumstance. Look at my avatar. My ideal situation is to wear comfy pants and a t-shirt or sweatshirt depending on the weather.

Now, as far as the deeper part of the question you've asked: is she saved? Only God knows the answer to that question. But, I do believe that Peter was right, in that inner holiness is reflected outwardly.

I know about the standards that some pentecostals hold to, and in some ways, I can understand their position, even though I don't agree with a lot of their conclusions: (no pants on women/girls, hair length, makeup, jewelry, etc.)

Personally, I don't wear makeup. Has nothing to do with religious convictions. I was on the swim team for four years in high school, and with 5:30am swim practices, just gave it up, and after I went to college, never bothered with it again. Actually, I think my complexion has benefited from the fact.

[GraceSeeker]

Personally, I question the wisdom in wearing things like this. I'm no "prude" by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe in modesty. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable wearing a mini skirt to church, let alone wearing one under any circumstance. Look at my avatar. My ideal situation is to wear comfy pants and a t-shirt or sweatshirt depending on the weather.

Now, as far as the deeper part of the question you've asked: is she saved? Only God knows the answer to that question. But, I do believe that Peter was right, in that inner holiness is reflected outwardly.

I know about the standards that some pentecostals hold to, and in some ways, I can understand their position, even though I don't agree with a lot of their conclusions: (no pants on women/girls, hair length, makeup, jewelry, etc.)

Personally, I don't wear makeup. Has nothing to do with religious convictions. I was on the swim team for four years in high school, and with 5:30am swim practices, just gave it up, and after I went to college, never bothered with it again. Actually, I think my complexion has benefited from the fact.

But as a theological question, isn't the style of dress, like meat offered to idols, something that Christians have freedom regarding to whether to accept it or not?

[Holyroller125]

Personally, I question the wisdom in wearing things like this. I'm no "prude" by any stretch of the imagination, but I believe in modesty. Personally, I'd be uncomfortable wearing a mini skirt to church, let alone wearing one under any circumstance. Look at my avatar. My ideal situation is to wear comfy pants and a t-shirt or sweatshirt depending on the weather.

Now, as far as the deeper part of the question you've asked: is she saved? Only God knows the answer to that question. But, I do believe that Peter was right, in that inner holiness is reflected outwardly.

I know about the standards that some pentecostals hold to, and in some ways, I can understand their position, even though I don't agree with a lot of their conclusions: (no pants on women/girls, hair length, makeup, jewelry, etc.)

Personally, I don't wear makeup. Has nothing to do with religious convictions. I was on the swim team for four years in high school, and with 5:30am swim practices, just gave it up, and after I went to college, never bothered with it again. Actually, I think my complexion has benefited from the fact.
I concur with almost everything that you have to say.

For holiness being reflected outwardly. The epistles in the New Testament were geared towards cleaning the fish, transforming behavior, cultivating character, and inspiring correct incarnational Christ-like actions. Holiness on the inside is going to come out in transformed character.

For the wisdom thing, their is a time and a place for everything, and some girls that do are honest and sincere. I used to believe they were all going to Hell in a hand basket. Then, God dealt with me, humbled me, and God gave me the revelation of grace. I fasted over the same issue and prayed continuously for God to remove a weakness that I had, and God did not remove it. Then, he spoke to me and said, "my grace is sufficient for thee."

I used to preach every standard of absolutely no jewelry, no pants, however, some scriptures positively speak about jewelry. The point is not to go so over the top to the point it causes division within the church.

For the conviction part, I respect the girls that are convicted of it. If that is how they hang on to their faith, do it. It is wrong to convince someone not to have a particular personal conviction. Convictions are what holds you.

Christians who are believers are supposed to have convictions or they are not real Christians.

God Bless,

Greg

[Kryzoz]

Amen on the convictions bro. greg

[GraceSeeker]

Christians who are believers are supposed to have convictions or they are not real Christians.

God Bless,

Greg

With respect Greg, who is it that determines what those convictions are supposed to be? Is that left up to the individual? the church? If we say it is left up to God, I see a lot more comments in scripture about the length of hair than the length of skirts. Yet today I hear many more people concerned about women with short skirts than women with short hair. I wonder if we've substituted our convictions for God's word and then are wanting to hold others to that standard?

[StacieA]

With respect Greg, who is it that determines what those convictions are supposed to be? Is that left up to the individual? the church? If we say it is left up to God, I see a lot more comments in scripture about the length of hair than the length of skirts. Yet today I hear many more people concerned about women with short skirts than women with short hair. I wonder if we've substituted our convictions for God's word and then are wanting to hold others to that standard?

:amen:

[Holyroller125]

:amen:
Ladies, Your point that people are making a bigger deal about the length of the skirts more than the length of hair is very valid. I know that leadership in the church has sometimes majored in the minors, ween at a gnat and swallowed a camel. I concur with both you on your points, and I know the attitude exactly what your talking about. I just hope that you see the generousity that I have to be authentic to the Biblical text, and have the Biblical text establish our convictions rather than major in the minors outside the Biblical text.

I believe that convictions are left to the Word of God being spoken to the person to convict them. The church [does not] establish the Word or conviction. The Word establishes the church and our convictions. Many Protestants have had it where the church establishes and switched around, and it has caused lots of confusion, division, suffering, and turmoil. If we had it where the Word establishes the church, this would get rid of a lot of confusions and division in the body of Christ. People have split churches over the fact that they believed skirts should be below the knee or all the way down to the ankles. This is still wrong because the length of the garments are not clear in the Biblical text, and yet, some people and unfortunately some pastors continually allow their flesh to get in the way and have church splits over that.

As a pastor, I am more concerned about healthy spiritual relationships, your connection with Jesus Christ, your emotional healing, and authentic Christian character than the majoring in the minors like some others had. Unfortunately, some pastors have majored in the minors by making sure the skirt was the right length, and after the pastor got what he wanted, he left that woman to go start on another convert in the church. That woman needed all the spiritual care she should get. Nonetheless, I just do not want to be ignorant and have the mindset that clothing standard=spiritual maturity.

God Bless you both and have a nice day.

Greg Norton