Yeshua Rose from the Grave on Shabbat not Easter Sunday [Archive]

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Sephania

26th July 2007, 01:20 AM

This came up in another thread and I did not want to derail it so here is a thread just for this.

This is basically what I believe, this site explains it pretty well, I only disagree with the way of presentation but all basics are what I believe happened.

http://www.tzaddikim.org/articles/easter~1.html

When I was looking around for something I may have written on this ( as I know I have from time to time on this forum) I came across this tidbit from a former believer.

Some argue that the Greek implies "between the weeks", not "on the first day of the week". In otherwords, in the twilight hours between Shabbat and the High Holy Shabbat he was ressurected.

Food for thought. :yum:

yeshuaslavejeff

26th July 2007, 02:17 AM

Also, if you can find it,
there was a good (I think simple, elegant and excellant)
study (last year) on a website I lost track of
that showed from Scripture that 3 days and 3 nights is 72 hours, not a phrase that means something else,
and from possibly 1 or more other specific significant prophecies
Yeshua, in order to fulfill Scripture,
was resurrected right at sundown at the end of Shabot/beginning of first day.
Of course, you don't have to find that or any other website;
as almost 35 years ago
reading the revised standard version the same obvious Truth was plain as DAY simply be the Grace of Yhwh in the Master Yeshua.

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 10:10 AM

Yes, Zayit, not at all on "_ _ _ _ _ _ Sunday" (explicative deleted)

That was created to keep away from the emet/truth.

A cheerful start for this morning! I got a chuckle anyway.

Shalom

muffler dragon

26th July 2007, 01:54 PM

This came up in another thread and I did not want to derail it so here is a thread just for this.

This is basically what I believe, this site explains it pretty well, I only disagree with the way of presentation but all basics are what I believe happened.

http://www.tzaddikim.org/articles/easter~1.html

When I was looking around for something I may have written on this ( as I know I have from time to time on this forum) I came across this tidbit from a former believer.

Food for thought. :yum:

Zayit:

If this is the case; then why would his Jewish followers be on the way to the tomb? This would be an act of work on the Sabbath.

Mark 16
1(A)When the Sabbath was over, (B)Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, (C)bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.

Charles YTK

26th July 2007, 01:58 PM

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 02:15 PM

The scripture do not say that he rose on Sunday. It says that the women went to the grave site early at first light on Sunday and the Lord was already risen, which was probably on the Sabbath most likely near its close.
Mark 16:9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week,-----
What about a Nano-nano-second after the Sabbath had ended? Which is what we today call SUNday! But not on that Awful named day! Invented later!
Shalom

Sephania

26th July 2007, 02:58 PM

Zayit:

If this is the case; then why would his Jewish followers be on the way to the tomb? This would be an act of work on the Sabbath.

Mark 16
1(A)When the Sabbath was over, (B)Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, (C)bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.

I think you answered yourself there
MD, in your point 'A'.

There was no law against resurrecting from the dead on Shabbat. :)
However those who wanted to clean and anoint his body ( which was already done by Mariam days before with the Spiknard, wasn't it?) had to wait until the Sabbath was over, then go and buy spices , and then go to the tomb. By this time it is now the well into the 1st day.

muffler dragon

26th July 2007, 03:09 PM

I think you answered yourself there
MD, in your point 'A'.

Good call, Zayit. Missed those little words. :D

There was no law against resurrecting from the dead on Shabbat. :)

Quite true.

However, were you aware that it was illegal to pronounce a capital offense on the eve of a Shabbat or on the eve of a feast day?

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:1 writes: דיני ממונות גומרין בו ביום בין לזכות בין לחובה ודיני נפשות גומין בו ביום לזכות וביום של אחריו לחובה לפיכך אין דנין לא בארב שבת ולא בארב יום טוב

Meaning, "In property cases they come to a final decision on the same day [as the trail itself], whether it is for acquittal or conviction. In capital cases they come to a final decision for acquittal on the same day, but on the following day for conviction. [Therefore they do not judge [capital cases] either on the eve of the Shabbat or on the eve of a festival]."

However those who wanted to clean and anoint his body ( which was already done by Mariam days before with the Spiknard, wasn't it?) had to wait until the Sabbath was over, then go and buy spices , and then go to the tomb. By this time it is now the well into the 1st day.

So, in truth, there's no knowing whether it was on Saturday or Sunday then, correct?

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 03:59 PM

mpossoff

26th July 2007, 04:24 PM

For you, Right! For me I believe that which the one called "Prince of Peace" is the Messiah, not in the past tense but the present tense, knowing the one called "Prince of Peace" in past tense was not Yeshua.
The Rabbi's of Kabbalah say the first created thing was the Aleph Beit, the NT says the Word was the first created thing(are we close?)Gen.1 says Elohim created everything in six days, the NT says the creation was via the Word, Ge.1 says God said--and it was(are we still close)! Well, I believe both!! That may put a wedge between us, but hang on the one called the "Word" and the Aleph Beit to me are the same, the word became flesh and dwelt among us, the "Word" says he was sent into the word to save the world, wasn't that the word of God that was sent to Moshe at the mountain?
Well, since I believe in the the Word of God, both ways, when Yeshua speaks I shema v'shamar and it is written in the NT the things he spoke, quoting the Torah, he said "Man does not live by bread anone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
Well let's get back to the OP. When he rose and how can I tell what day it was?
Quite true it is not lawfull to conduct a Capital Punishment on the erev of a Shabbat, so the Cohane Gadol turned the case over to the Romans who had no such law, so we have in the NT it being on Preparation Day erev of a High Shabbat, three days and three days in the heart of the earth puts us to the day he was resurrected, the first day of the week.
So I know that he arose early on the first day of the week.
The Word of God has said it is so and I blieve him

Shalom

If He rose early on the first day of the week, isn't that according to the Roman calendar?

The question is did He rise before sundown ? If He did then that's considered Saturday/Sabbath.

Now the argument can be they were living according to the Roman calendar and the Gospel accounts were written based on that.

The other argument can mean that the Gospel was written by Jew. Since they were Jews obviously they mean it as sundown to sundown

Marc

muffler dragon

26th July 2007, 04:47 PM

So you're aware: you're initial rant had nothing to do with me.

Quite true it is not lawfull to conduct a Capital Punishment on the erev of a Shabbat, so the Cohane Gadol turned the case over to the Romans who had no such law, so we have in the NT it being on Preparation Day erev of a High Shabbat, three days and three days in the heart of the earth puts us to the day he was resurrected, the first day of the week.
So I know that he arose early on the first day of the week.
The Word of God has said it is so and I blieve him

Shalom

Matthew 26
Jesus before Caiaphas
57(BS)Those who had seized Jesus led Him away to (BT)Caiaphas, the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together.
58But (BU)Peter was following Him at a distance as far as the (BV)courtyard of the high priest, and entered in, and sat down with the (BW)officers to see the outcome.

59Now the chief priests and the whole (BX)Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.

60They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on (BY)two came forward,

61and said, "This man stated, '(BZ)I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'"

62The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"

63But (CA)Jesus kept silent (CB)And the high priest said to Him, "I (CC)adjure You by (CD)the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, (CE)the Son of God."

64Jesus said to him, "(CF)You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see (CG)THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and (CH)COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

65Then the high priest (CI)tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;

66what do you think?" They answered, "(CJ)He deserves death!"

67(CK)Then they (CL)spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him,

68and said, "(CM)Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?"

*cough* capital punishment pronouncement made.

Btw, I should note, I believe the entire trial is a fabrication. ;)

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 05:14 PM

Shalom Marc, good to talk to you.
Yes, they were Hebrews writing about a Hebrew Moshiac and speaking to Hebrews for the most part. So I'm inclined to believe it was Torah Time.
This is where it gets to be whatever! No one can go back in time and get the real info from the horses mouth so I myself listen to the Comforter as he brings all thing to rememberance.
Can't make anyone believe what was only spoken to me.
If I could I'd be God. LOL

Shalom

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 05:22 PM

So you're aware: you're initial rant had nothing to do with me.

Matthew 26
Jesus before Caiaphas
57(BS)Those who had seized Jesus led Him away to (BT)Caiaphas, the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were gathered together.
58But (BU)Peter was following Him at a distance as far as the (BV)courtyard of the high priest, and entered in, and sat down with the (BW)officers to see the outcome.

59Now the chief priests and the whole (BX)Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.

60They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on (BY)two came forward,

61and said, "This man stated, '(BZ)I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'"

62The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"

63But (CA)Jesus kept silent (CB)And the high priest said to Him, "I (CC)adjure You by (CD)the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, (CE)the Son of God."

64Jesus said to him, "(CF)You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see (CG)THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and (CH)COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

65Then the high priest (CI)tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;

66what do you think?" They answered, "(CJ)He deserves death!"

67(CK)Then they (CL)spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him,

68and said, "(CM)Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?"

*cough* capital punishment pronouncement made.

Btw, I should note, I believe the entire trial is a fabrication. ;)
So there you go! It seems you think Caiaphas was so godlike he would not have done anything so as to violate the Torah! So you don't believe he violated Torah to become Cohen Gadol?
Is that what folks call bible only and that to you is just Tanack. History is fiction too?

Shalom

Codger

26th July 2007, 05:23 PM

Sephania

26th July 2007, 05:34 PM

We''ll start with the account in Matthew, what time did he die?: ( all scriptural references at bottom of post)

Matthew
From noon until three o'clock in the afternoon, all the Land was covered with darkness.
At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, "Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani? "
But Yeshua, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit.
Mark

At noon, darkness covered the whole Land until three o'clock in the afternoon.
At three, he uttered a loud cry, "Elohi! Elohi! L'mah sh'vaktani?" (which means, "My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?")
But Yeshua let out a loud cry and gave up his spirit.Luke

It was now about noon, and darkness covered the whole Land until three o'clock in the afternoon;
the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle.
Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, "Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit."
With these words he gave up his spirit.John

it was about noon on Preparation Day for Pesach.
Then Pilate handed Yeshua over to them to have him put to death on the stake. So they took charge of Yeshua.
After Yeshua had taken the wine, he said, "It is accomplished!" And, letting his head droop, he delivered up his spirit.
It can easily be deduced that Yeshua died around the ninth hour or at about 3o'clock in the afternoon of the Preparation day ( preparing for the High Sabbath of Unleavened bread). Which leaves about 3 hours until sunset, the 12th hour, which Passover falls very near the Spring Equinox, thus there are 12 hours of light and 12 hours of darkness.

Matthew 27:45 From noon until three o'clock in the afternoon, all the Land was covered with darkness. 46 At about three, Yeshua uttered a loud cry, "Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani? (My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?)" 47 On hearing this, some of the bystanders said, "He's calling for Eliyahu." 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, soaked it in vinegar, put it on a stick and gave it to him to drink. 49 The rest said, "Wait! Let's see if Eliyahu comes and rescues him." 50 But Yeshua, again crying out in a loud voice, yielded up his spirit. 51 At that moment the parokhet in the Temple was ripped in two from top to bottom; and there was an earthquake, with rocks splitting apart. 52 Also the graves were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life;
Mark 15:33 At noon, darkness covered the whole Land until three o'clock in the afternoon. 34 At three, he uttered a loud cry, "Elohi! Elohi! L'mah sh'vaktani?" (which means, "My God! My God! Why have you deserted me?") 35 On hear ing this, some of the bystanders said, "Look! He's calling for Eliyahu!" 36 One ran and soaked a sponge in vinegar, put it on a stick and gave it to him to drink. "Wait!" he said, "Let's see if Eliyahu will come and take him down." 37 But Yeshua let out a loud cry and gave up his spirit. 38 And the parokhet in the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 When the Roman officer who stood facing him saw the way he gave up his spirit, he said, "This man really was a son of God!"
Luke 23:44 It was now about noon, and darkness covered the whole Land until three o'clock in the afternoon; 45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle. 46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, "Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit." With these words he gave up his spirit. 47 When the Roman officer saw what had happened, he began to praise God and said, "Surely this man was innocent!" 48 And when all the crowds that had gathered to watch the spectacle saw the things that had occurred, they returned home beating their breasts.
John 19:13 When Pilate heard what they were saying, he brought Yeshua outside and sat down on the judge's seat in the place called The Pavement (in Aramaic, Gabta); 14 it was about noon on Preparation Day for Pesach. He said to the Judeans, "Here's your king!" 15 They shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Put him to death on the stake!" Pilate said to them, "You want me to execute your king on a stake?" The head cohanim answered, "We have no king but the Emperor." 16 Then Pilate handed Yeshua over to them to have him put to death on the stake. So they took charge of Yeshua.................

30 After Yeshua had taken the wine, he said, "It is accomplished!" And, letting his head droop, he delivered up his spirit.

Sephania

26th July 2007, 05:35 PM

Asked for here:

Matthew 12`:28 At this some of the Torah-teachers said, "Rabbi, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39 He replied, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign? No! None will be given to it but the sign of the prophet Yonah.

40 For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths ( or belly) of the earth.

So it is not just that he is dead for three days and three nights but that he must be in the grave for that period.

Let's see if we can determine anything more about the time

Matthew

There were many women there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Yeshua from the Galil, helping him.Among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya`akov and Yosef, and the mother of Zavdai's sons.
Towards evening, there came a wealthy man from Ramatayim named Yosef, (who was himself a talmid of Yeshua.) He approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body, and Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
Yosef took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen sheet, and laid it in his own tomb,( which he had recently had cut out of the rock. After rolling a large stone in front of the entrance to the tomb, he went away).
Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam stayed there, sitting opposite the grave.Mark

There were women looking on from a distance; among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of the younger Ya`akov and of Yosi, and Shlomit.These women had followed him and helped him when he was in the Galil. And many other women were there who had come up with him to Yerushalayim.
Since it was Preparation Day (that is, the day before a Shabbat), as evening approached, Yosef of Ramatayim, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body.After he had gotten confirmation from the officer that Yeshua was dead, he granted Yosef the corpse.
Yosef purchased a linen sheet; and after taking Yeshua down, he wrapped him in the linen sheet, laid him in a tomb which had been cut out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the entrance to the tomb.
Miryam of Magdala and Miryam the mother of Yosi saw where he had been laid.
Luke's account

All his friends, including the women who had accompanied him from the Galil, had been standing at a distance; they saw it all.
There was a man named Yosef, a member of the Sanhedrin. He was a good man, a tzaddik; and he had not been in agreement with either the Sanhedrin's motivation or their action. This man approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body. It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin.
He took it ( the body) down, wrapped it in a linen sheet, and placed it in a tomb cut into the rock, that had never been used.
The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it. Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment;John:

Nearby Yeshua's execution stake stood his mother, his mother's sister Miryam the wife of K'lofah, and Miryam from Magdala.
It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed. After this, Yosef of Ramatayim, asked Pilate if he could have Yeshua's body. Pilate gave his consent, so Yosef came and took the body away.
Also Nakdimon, came with some seventy pounds of spices -- a mixture of myrrh and aloes. They took Yeshua's body and wrapped it up in linen sheets with the spices, in keeping with Judean burial practice. In the vicinity of where he had been executed was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb in which no one had ever been buried. So, because it was Preparation Day for the Judeans, and because the tomb was close by, that is where they buried Yeshua.As you can see all four accounts say it was Preparation Day and a Sabbath followed so Joseph asked for the body ( and apparently the priests asked that the bodies not stay on the cross dying because of the coming Sabbath and asked that they be hurried along by the breaking of the legs, Yeshua was dead by this point so no need) took it to a nearby grave that three accounts show the women following probably emitting mourning wails, and they hurriedly wrapped it quickly with the aloes and spices a the linen sheet and rolled the stone there and left. The woman stayed for a bit longer in mourning most likely then returned to wherever they were staying as you would not be near a grave on Shabbat.

So we can conclude from these passages that the body was in the grave before sundown, most likely just before.

Matthew 27 55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Yeshua from the Galil, helping him. 56 Among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of Ya`akov and Yosef, and the mother of Zavdai's sons.
57 Towards evening, there came a wealthy man from Ramatayim named Yosef, who was himself a talmid of Yeshua. 58 He approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body, and Pilate ordered it to be given to him. 59 Yosef took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen sheet, 60 and laid it in his own tomb, which he had recently had cut out of the rock. After rolling a large stone in front of the entrance to the tomb, he went away. 61 Miryam of Magdala and the other Miryam stayed there, sitting opposite the grave.
Mark 15:40 There were women looking on from a distance; among them were Miryam from Magdala, Miryam the mother of the younger Ya`akov and of Yosi, and Shlomit. 41 These women had followed him and helped him when he was in the Galil. And many other women were there who had come up with him to Yerushalayim.
42 Since it was Preparation Day (that is, the day before a Shabbat), as evening approached, 43 Yosef of Ramatayim, a prominent member of the Sanhedrin who himself was also looking forward to the Kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead, so he summoned the officer and asked him if he had been dead awhile. 45 After he had gotten confirmation from the officer that Yeshua was dead, he granted Yosef the corpse. 46 Yosef purchased a linen sheet; and after taking Yeshua down, he wrapped him in the linen sheet, laid him in a tomb which had been cut out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the entrance to the tomb. 47 Miryam of Magdala and Miryam the mother of Yosi saw where he had been laid.
Luke 23:49 All his friends, including the women who had accompanied him from the Galil, had been standing at a distance; they saw it all. 50 There was a man named Yosef, a member of the Sanhedrin. He was a good man, a tzaddik; 51 and he had not been in agreement with either the Sanhedrin's motivation or their action. He came from the town of Ramatayim, a town of the Judeans; and he looked forward to the Kingdom of God. 52 This man approached Pilate and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, wrapped it in a linen sheet, and placed it in a tomb cut into the rock, that had never been used. 54 It was Preparation Day, and a Shabbat was about to begin. 55 The women who had come with Yeshua from the Galil followed; they saw the tomb and how his body was placed in it. 56 Then they went back home to prepare spices and ointments. On Shabbat the women rested, in obedience to the commandment;
John 19:25 Nearby Yeshua's execution stake stood his mother, his mother's sister Miryam the wife of K'lofah, and Miryam from Magdala. 26 When Yeshua saw his mother and the talmid whom he loved standing there, he said to his mother, "Mother, this is your son." 27 Then he said to the talmid, "This is your mother." And from that time on, the talmid took her into his own home.
31 It was Preparation Day, and the Judeans did not want the bodies to remain on the stake on Shabbat, since it was an especially important Shabbat. So they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies removed. 32 The soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man who had been put on a stake beside Yeshua, then the legs of the other one; 33 but when they got to Yeshua and saw that he was already dead, they didn't break his legs. 34 However, one of the soldiers stabbed his side with a spear, and at once blood and water flowed out. 35 The man who saw it has testified about it, and his testimony is true. And he knows that he tells the truth, so you too can trust. 36 For these things happened in order to fulfill this passage of the Tanakh: "Not one of his bones will be broken." 37 And again, another passage says, "They will look at him whom they have pierced."
38 After this, Yosef of Ramatayim, who was a talmid of Yeshua, but a secret one out of fear of the Judeans, asked Pilate if he could have Yeshua's body. Pilate gave his consent, so Yosef came and took the body away. 39 Also Nakdimon, who at first had gone to see Yeshua by night, came with some seventy pounds of spices -- a mixture of myrrh and aloes. 40 They took Yeshua's body and wrapped it up in linen sheets with the spices, in keeping with Judean burial practice. 41 In the vicinity of where he had been executed was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb in which no one had ever been buried. 42 So, because it was Preparation Day for the Judeans, and because the tomb was close by, that is where they buried Yeshua.

muffler dragon

26th July 2007, 05:42 PM

So there you go! It seems you think Caiaphas was so godlike he would not have done anything so as to violate the Torah! So you don't believe he violated Torah to become Cohen Gadol?
Is that what folks call bible only and that to you is just Tanack. History is fiction too?

Shalom

1) This doesn't refute the fact that I disproved your original contention.
2) I already wrote that I believe the trial is a fabrication.

Please make the attempt to follow the argument as it's presented, because I'm not one for rants.

muffler dragon

26th July 2007, 05:47 PM

It seems to me that in the cases of Jesus and Steven they didn't bother following their rules.

Stephen's situation isn't the same (as described below).

Actually, what needs to occur now is this:

It would be of benefit for someone to show that there was a history of this particular Sanhedrin disregarding the halacha. If someone provides an extra-biblical consideration that substantiates it; then I would say you've got an argument.

Personally, I find the possibility that the trial was a fabrication much more likely.

Technically, their two witnesses disagreed and were discredited. Jesus condemned himself when they asked him if he were God.

That's only the case if you believe the Christian testament is trinitarian in doctrine. There are many non-trinitarians who interpret the passage completely different.

They obviously disregarded the next day condemnation rule in both cases. Jesus died about three o'clock on Friday afternoon.

Actually, Stephen was NOT condemned on the eve of Shabbat or a feast day.

By the way, I'm not debating the timeline. You can take that up with Zayit.

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 06:04 PM

1) This doesn't refute the fact that I disproved your original contention.
2) I already wrote that I believe the trial is a fabrication.

Please make the attempt to follow the argument as it's presented, because I'm not one for rants.
In your mind only! You stated your opinon, I respect that, but as to proving your point, again only in your mind!
As stated to Marc, we can only guess as to what is the actual truth! So it what one believes and you and I believe differently! If I could make you believe as I believe, I'd be God! So, I suppose our conversation is over?!

Shalom

Sephania

26th July 2007, 06:15 PM

Gentlemen, this is a discussion, not a debate. As of this moment the rules for posting for non MJ's does not allow debate.

A_Pioneer

26th July 2007, 06:24 PM

Gentlemen, this is a discussion, not a debate. As of this moment the rules for posting for non MJ's does not allow debate.
Zayit, did you read my last three posts?
What part was debate and what part was discussion?
Like others, it's one's POV!
I was having a conversation with you all, I state my opinion and you state yours! How does this differ from a discussion?
Shalom

visionary

26th July 2007, 07:20 PM

Discussion... when people present their POV
Debate.. when people pick apart the someone elses POV

visionary

26th July 2007, 07:47 PM

Back to OP

Re-read these verses with this in mind... it is the same evening.... it all happened one evening.

John 20:19-the same day at evening, being the first day of the week

John 20:1-19

John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"First question - when did Mary Magdeline see the empty grave?

.. is the evening mentioned mentioned here in verse 19

1 sunday night
2 saturday night after sunset
3 next weekend

ContraMundum

27th July 2007, 03:41 AM

It's a fairly superfluous argument. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of the resurrection, which means ultimately this is speculation. Was it before or after sunset? If after Sunset, then the first day is correct. If before, then God worked His miracle on the Sabbath.

I don't think a 7th Day resurrection works prophetically, midrashically, or is supported by the early witnesses to and guardians of the New Testament. If it were a dogma to be believed, then surely those who knew the Apostles personally would have made a testimony to it. As it stands, thos people are pretty certain it was the first day of the week (8th day).

For the record, I think Muffler is doing pretty good here.

But, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter because no poster here was there. It's all speculation and anyone drawing a doctrine from speculation is building on shaky ground. Interesting topic, but ultimately speculative. Better to stick with tradition when there is uncertainty.

ContraMundum

27th July 2007, 03:58 AM

It would be of benefit for someone to show that there was a history of this particular Sanhedrin disregarding the halacha. If someone provides an extra-biblical consideration that substantiates it; then I would say you've got an argument.

Good point. Interesting to note: many Jewish histories cite the end of the Second Temple era as one of the lowest points in holiness in Jewish history (I wish I had better online links!) IF a Sanhedrin were to be this dismissive of halacha, this time in history would be a good candidate for that to occur. However, that speculation alone proves nothing, and for the record, I don't think anyone can prove this point.

ContraMundum

27th July 2007, 04:04 AM

This came up in another thread and I did not want to derail it so here is a thread just for this.

This is basically what I believe, this site explains it pretty well, I only disagree with the way of presentation but all basics are what I believe happened.

http://www.tzaddikim.org/articles/easter~1.html

When I was looking around for something I may have written on this ( as I know I have from time to time on this forum) I came across this tidbit from a former believer.

Food for thought. :yum:

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I'd take issue with some points in that article but it's not really worth it for the obvious reasons known to you and I. The article lost me on the first sentence of paragraph three. They didn't do their homework on a few things in there. Still...each to their own.

muffler dragon

27th July 2007, 09:08 AM

visionary

29th July 2007, 01:55 PM

Matthew 28: 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

(Some versions read: "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week.... This still does not mean that Yeshua rose on a Sunday, because in "Old Testament" times (and according to the Hebrew calendar), a new day began at sundown - which is still at least six hours from our modern time table where a new day begins at midnight. The bottom line is that, by the time the two Mary's arrived at Yeshua's tomb just before or just after SUNSET, Yeshua was nowhere to be found!)

http://www.therefinersfire.org/resurrection1.htm

yeshuaslavejeff

29th July 2007, 06:14 PM

it really is simple:
http://www.google.com/search?q=72+hours+scripture+prophesy+sabbath&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

(but I doubt if anyone will change their mind; let the righteous become more righteous, and the wicked more wicked; it is written)

visionary

29th July 2007, 06:20 PM

yeshuaslavejeff

29th July 2007, 06:31 PM

I don't care if you read them or not..... you won't change your mind in any case.

Torah

29th July 2007, 06:40 PM

Sephania

29th July 2007, 07:14 PM

Good call, Zayit. Missed those little words. :D

Quite true.

However, were you aware that it was illegal to pronounce a capital offense on the eve of a Shabbat or on the eve of a feast day?

Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:1 writes: דיני ממונות גומרין בו ביום בין לזכות בין לחובה ודיני נפשות גומין בו ביום לזכות וביום של אחריו לחובה לפיכך אין דנין לא בארב שבת ולא בארב יום טוב

Meaning, "In property cases they come to a final decision on the same day [as the trail itself], whether it is for acquittal or conviction. In capital cases they come to a final decision for acquittal on the same day, but on the following day for conviction. [Therefore they do not judge [capital cases] either on the eve of the Shabbat or on the eve of a festival]."

So, in truth, there's no knowing whether it was on Saturday or Sunday then, correct?

They even said ( at first in Matthe 26:4 ) they made plans to arrest Yeshua, and have him put to death, but they said, Not during the festival else it would cause the people to riot, yet they arrested him anyway.
They seized him the night before their passover somewhere probably between 9pm and midnight.

What is considered the 'eve'? From the gospel account Matthew 27

57 Those who had seized Yeshua led him off to Kayafa the cohen hagadol, where the Torah-teachers and elders were assembled. 58 Kefa followed him at a distance as far as the courtyard of the cohen hagadol; then he went inside and sat down with the guards to see what the outcome would be. 59 The head cohanim and the whole Sanhedrin looked for some false evidence against Yeshua, so that they might put him to death. 60 But they didn't find any, even though many liars came forward to give testimony. At last, however, two people came forward and said, 61 "This man said, `I can tear down God's Temple and build it again in three days.'" 62 The cohen hagadol stood up and said, "Have you nothing to say to the accusation these men are making?" 63 Yeshua remained silent. The cohen hagadol said to him, "I put you under oath! By the living God, tell us if you are the Mashiach, the Son of God!" 64 Yeshua said to him, "The words are your own. But I tell you that one day you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of HaG'vurah and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 At this, the cohen hagadol tore his robes. "Blasphemy!" he said. "Why do we still need witnesses? You heard him blaspheme! 66 What is your verdict?" "Guilty," they answered. "He deserves death!"
Right after this we see Kefa in the courtyard denying him as prophecied three times before the cock crowed.

The watches of the night were originally three in number,
(1) "the beginning of the watches" (Lam. 2:19);
(2) "the middle watch" (Judg. 7:19);
(3) "the morning watch" (Ex. 14:24; 1 Sam. 11:11), which extended from two o'clock to sunrise.

The 'cock' was a name given to the watchmen who upon changing shifts would 'crow' all clear.

Taking that then it seems as if this trial was held in the morning watch, the cock crowing around two am. Because the next verse we read is in Chapter 27

1 Early in the morning, all the head cohanim and elders met to plan how to bring about Yeshua's death. 2 Then they put him in chains, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

So technically the sentence was pronounced the night before, it was before sunrise, therefore in my understanding it was before the eve of the Shabbat.

In Mark this becomes a bit clearer:

Mark 14:30 Yeshua replied, "Yes! I tell you that this very night, before the rooster crows twice, you will disown me three times!"

It was during the 'trail' that this also happened: ( Mark 14:66-72)

Meanwhile, Kefa was still in the courtyard below. One of the serving girls of the cohen hagadol saw Kefa warming himself, took a look at him, and said, "You were with the man from Natzeret, Yeshua!" But he denied it, saying, "I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about!" He went outside into the entryway, and a rooster crowed. The girl saw him there and started telling the bystanders, "This fellow is one of them." Again he denied it. A little later, the bystanders themselves said to Kefa, "You must be one of them, because you're from the Galil." At this he began to invoke a curse on himself as he swore, "I do not know this man you are telling me about!" -- and immediately the rooster crowed a second time. Then Kefa remembered what Yeshua had said to him, "Before the rooster crows twice, you will disown me three times." And throwing himself down, he burst into tears.

So it sounds like the trial was held between, two am and 6 am. Kefa's first denial was right before the changes of the watchmen at 2 and his third denial right before 6am.

Eve, I think would be erev, and that would be from sundown of the day to 6 in the morning? So they promounced this sentence at least 12 hours before the Erev started.

Sephania

29th July 2007, 07:27 PM

Good point. Interesting to note: many Jewish histories cite the end of the Second Temple era as one of the lowest points in holiness in Jewish history (I wish I had better online links!) IF a Sanhedrin were to be this dismissive of halacha, this time in history would be a good candidate for that to occur. However, that speculation alone proves nothing, and for the record, I don't think anyone can prove this point.Again, I only presented how I see this, and opened for discussion, not a debate, we are not trying to come to unanimous consensus here, just discuss, throwing things on the table to all reap benefits from, not to win anything.

It's a fairly superfluous argument. Why? Because no one knows the exact time of the resurrection, which means ultimately this is speculation. Was it before or after sunset? If after Sunset, then the first day is correct. If before, then God worked His miracle on the Sabbath.We do have many points of time that were recorded to narrow it down, and having the proper understand of when Shabbat is and when it isn't and when the first day of the week begins in true Hebrew understanding, not gentile timing, I think it's worth deducing and getting a little closer to the truth than 'Tradition' has held onto.

Superfluous??? I'm sorry you find my wanting to discuss this as needless, but you did ask, nothing like asking someone something and they take the time to explain and it gets so rudely dismissed. :sigh:

But, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter because no poster here was there. Nor for any of the other events of "Christianity'. So what does that really prove?

ContraMundum

29th July 2007, 08:23 PM

Again, I only presented how I see this, and opened for discussion, not a debate, we are not trying to come to unanimous consensus here, just discuss, throwing things on the table to all reap benefits from, not to win anything.

I respect that and thank you.

Superfluous??? I'm sorry you find my wanting to discuss this as needless, but you did ask, nothing like asking someone something and they take the time to explain and it gets so rudely dismissed. :sigh:

I'm not rudely dismissing it. I've read and taken note. It's interesting, but I can't agree at all.

Nor for any of the other events of "Christianity'. So what does that really prove?

No modern day poster was there for any event in the whole of scripture (unless you believe the Jewish doctrine about Sinai etc...sidetrack), but we know of people that were, and we know that they trained people to follow in their footsteps and keep up their work and doctrine...and those people are unanimously in favor of a 1st day resurrection based on scripture as understood by its authors. That means a lot to me.

visionary

29th July 2007, 08:30 PM

I respect that and thank you.

I'm not rudely dismissing it. I've read and taken note. It's interesting, but I can't agree at all.

No modern day poster was there for any event in the whole of scripture (unless you believe the Jewish doctrine about Sinai etc...sidetrack), but we know of people that were, and we know that they trained people to follow in their footsteps and keep up their work and doctrine...and those people are unanimously in favor of a 1st day resurrection based on scripture as understood by its authors. That means a lot to me.agreed first day...and now for the details... at the start of the first day which is in hebrew understanding saturday night, in greek and roman understanding sunday... .. it is separated by aprox twelve hours but worth investigating.

ContraMundum

30th July 2007, 09:30 AM

agreed first day...and now for the details... at the start of the first day which is in hebrew understanding saturday night, in greek and roman understanding sunday... .. it is separated by aprox twelve hours but worth investigating.

What's that got to do with anything? We're only talking about the Hebrew calendar.

I have to remind you that earlier I have already stated that the ancient churches and the Orthodox to this day hold the Easter Vigil services on Saturday night commencing immediately after sunset (well, before actually, but they kinda just flow on into the night).

Steve Petersen

30th July 2007, 10:27 AM

Here is my 2cents: There is a time between the sun going down on Shabbat and darkness,[seeing of 3 stars, the first day.] the time of Havdala service. It is MY opinion, that it was at this time that Yeshua rose.

Z, I liked the article.

Shalom all

This reminded me of something I saw on the Historty Channel. One of the Eastern Churches (Orthodox or Copt) has a ceremony on Easter morning before sunrise. The Chief Patriarch enters the sight of Jesus' tomb in Jerusalem and emerges with a lit torch, supposedly a miraculous fire kindled by God. With that torch he lights the torches of the worshippers who are also there. They in turn light the torches of others.

This whole ceremony has the the feel of Havdalah. Perhaps they preserve the ancient memory of the early church that Jesus rose near the time of Havdalah on Saturday night.

talmidim

30th July 2007, 09:38 PM

Granted that there are no extra-biblical historical sources concerning the resurrection. That leaves us with the Word as it is written and the traditions as they are kept. The Word reveals that Yeshua rose on the first day of the week (sometime after sunset on the first day). We know this based on two things. The first is the chronology that we can discern from the Gospels. The second is from the fact that the Messiah, as part of His prefect ministry kept His Word perfectly (He was in the ground for three nights and three days) and He fulfilled the Sacred Feasts of the Spring Harvest perfectly. And while the Rabbis teach that Firstfruits is celebrated the day after the High Holy Sabbath of Unleavened Bread, the Master clearly kept Firstfruits the day after the weekly Sabbath. His disciples reveal Him as the Firstfruit of those that slept, indicating that He prophetically fulfilled that Feast in that manner. It doesn't take a math genius to count back three days and three nights from the day after the weekly Sabbath to see when the Lamb was slain. And it is impossible for Him to have fulfilled the sign of Noah the way some have counted. It would require that He lied, which I do not believe. So, it could have been that He was in the ground on Unleavened Bread, the second day and the weekly Sabbath. I personally do not see any other way that He could have kept His Word and prophetically fulfilled the Feasts too. That's my take on things anyway.

ContraMundum

30th July 2007, 09:41 PM

Kudos to Talmidim!

talmidim

30th July 2007, 09:55 PM

Kudos to Talmidim!Thanks Contra,

There are only certain ways that some things fit no matter how you twist, bend and stuff. And the most important overriding factor in determining how scriptural things fit is the perfect nature of the Son of the Father and the context in which His Word is written. As for me, well even a broken clock is right twice a day... :D

Sephania

30th July 2007, 09:59 PM

I guess it all depends on how you read

L-RD of the Shabbat! :)

In Matthew it says,

IN the END OF THE SABBATH AS IT BEGAN TO DAWN TOWARD THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK..

He is NOT HERE FOR HE IS RISEN!

If it were already the first day, after sundown, and he wasn't there I could see the understanding that the arose on the first day, even the first moments but the language used does not indicate that.

Something beginning to dawn towards..... is not there yet, but he was already gone................

Sephania

30th July 2007, 10:02 PM

Thanks Contra,

There are only certain ways that some things fit no matter how you twist, bend and stuff. And the most important overriding factor in determining how scriptural things fit is the perfect nature of the Son of the Father and the context in which His Word is written. As for me, well even a broken clock is right twice a day... :D

Thank you for your kind words Talmidim, what a blessing! :)

Wags

31st July 2007, 09:14 AM

No modern day poster was there for any event in the whole of scripture (unless you believe the Jewish doctrine about Sinai etc...sidetrack), but we know of people that were, and we know that they trained people to follow in their footsteps and keep up their work and doctrine...and those people are unanimously in favor of a 1st day resurrection based on scripture as understood by its authors. That means a lot to me.

The so called "church fathers" may be "authority" figures for you, but they are not for most messianics. Those same "fathers" ignored Gods appointed times and substitute ones of their own choosing. This makes any thing they wrote is highly suspect in my book!

muffler dragon

31st July 2007, 09:24 AM

talmidim

31st July 2007, 09:25 AM

The so called "church fathers" may be "authority" figures for you, but they are not for most messianics. Those same "fathers" ignored Gods appointed times and substitute ones of their own choosing. This makes any thing they wrote is highly suspect in my book!Wags, you make a good point. On the other hand the same can be said of the Rabbis concerning other matters, like the supremacy of the Word for example. The fact is that we have many different histories to choose from and it is ALL suspect. For my money, the only one that can be trusted is Yeshua...

muffler dragon

31st July 2007, 09:29 AM

Wags, you make a good point. On the other hand the same can be said of the Rabbis concerning other matters, like the supremacy of the Word for example. The fact is that we have many different histories to choose from and it is ALL suspect. For my money, the only one that can be trusted is Yeshua...

Which, is a matter of faith, since there is nothing written firsthand from Jesus. Correct?

It's all a matter of belief and faith.

ContraMundum

31st July 2007, 09:35 AM

The so called "church fathers" may be "authority" figures for you, but they are not for most messianics. Those same "fathers" ignored Gods appointed times and substitute ones of their own choosing. This makes any thing they wrote is highly suspect in my book!

Do you know why they believed as they did? What do you base your comments on?

(Also, the church fathers are also your authorities whether you like it or not....unless of course you aren't part of the Church Christ founded...which I thought you were....BUT of course not everything they said was correct...However, would you like to compare your teachers to them sometime?)

A_Pioneer

31st July 2007, 04:07 PM

Wags, you make a good point. On the other hand the same can be said of the Rabbis concerning other matters, like the supremacy of the Word for example. The fact is that we have many different histories to choose from and it is ALL suspect. For my money, the only one that can be trusted is Yeshua...
Tell me how you seperate the "Word" and Yeshua! The Word/Torah is the way, the truth and the life, Yeshua says just that, "I am the way the truth and the life."
When spoken to my ears by the Ruach HaQodesh, it echos clear they are one!

Shalom

muffler dragon

31st July 2007, 04:15 PM

Tell me how you seperate the "Word" and Yeshua! The Word/Torah is the way, the truth and the life, Yeshua says just that, "I am the way the truth and the life."
When spoken to my ears by the Ruach HaQodesh, it echos clear they are one!

Shalom

May I ask: how do you equate Jesus with the Torah? Let me know if I should just start a thread on it.

edit: I went ahead and started a thread.

Wags

31st July 2007, 05:06 PM

Do you know why they believed as they did? What do you base your comments on?

(Also, the church fathers are also your authorities whether you like it or not....unless of course you aren't part of the Church Christ founded...which I thought you were....BUT of course not everything they said was correct...However, would you like to compare your teachers to them sometime?)

Christ "founded" a church? :confused:

ContraMundum

31st July 2007, 09:46 PM

Christ "founded" a church? :confused:

Um...yes. Are you being serious with me? Please don't set me up again. I'll play along for now...

Christ founded the church. I thought everybody knew that. Every MJ I know certainly knows and believes that. Christ founded THE Church (ekklesia), not A church.

In case you are seriously asking me if Christ founded a church or not, I say He founded THE Church, complete with authority:

Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that tho uart John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona:for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee,That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Also, He is in charge of the Church:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

Importantly, the church which He has founded will never lose its authority or its promise of Dvine guidance throughout all ages- He has always been with His Church, guiding and directing her.

(Revisit Matt 16:18 above...the gates of Hell shall not prevail).

Christ said to His disciples (not to them as individuals, but to the whole company):

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Anyway...these are just scriptures..and only the surface of the subject. I'm sure you've heard them before. Perhaps the concept of One Church guided by the Holy Spirit without cessation throughout history is something new to you, I don't know.

Sephania

1st August 2007, 12:57 AM

What does any of this have to do with the OP? Can we get back to that please?

ContraMundum

1st August 2007, 02:31 AM

What does any of this have to do with the OP? Can we get back to that please?

Directing traffic constable? :P

Is there anything else you wish to say about the original topic? Looks like it burnt out already....but I'm still here.

visionary

1st August 2007, 07:13 AM

I would love to learn what feast practices there were for the first fruits/wavesheaf. I know that it was dropped after Yeshua's resurrection and has not been practiced since. Maybe there is some clues in the ancient ways that would shed some light on this subject.

Sephania

1st August 2007, 12:22 PM

Directing traffic constable? :P

Is there anything else you wish to say about the original topic? Looks like it burnt out already....but I'm still here.Keep your sarcasm, it is your job to maintain the flow of threads here and you were one of the ones helping to derail it. This is not a poll, there is no time limit on when things have to be said on this subject, it could go on for years, or is this another rule that has been come up with over night here? :doh: And your snide remarks about it being burnt out. Very ununbiased moderator like. :sigh:

And as a matter of fact I did have something further to say, (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37216248&postcount=42) but it got buried with your rabbit trail about church fathers, again. :)

visionary

1st August 2007, 08:44 PM

In Matthew it says,

IN the END OF THE SABBATH... That indicates when pretty nicely.

ContraMundum

2nd August 2007, 08:38 AM

Keep your sarcasm, it is your job to maintain the flow of threads here and you were one of the ones helping to derail it.

It is NOT the job of moderators to control the flow or topic or anything of the conversation!

Who's being sarcastic?

This is not a poll, there is no time limit on when things have to be said on this subject, it could go on for years, or is this another rule that has been come up with over night here? :doh: And your snide remarks about it being burnt out. Very ununbiased moderator like. :sigh:

My goodness! Is personal attack the best you can do? Why is it that the minute I make a comment people around here accuse me of having a nasty character?

A person can't make a comment about the topic being done to death without you accusing them of being "biased".

Why is it that a moderator- according to your world view- is supposed to "control the conversation" but not have an opinion on it that is contrary to yours?

And as a matter of fact I did have something further to say, (http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37216248&postcount=42) but it got buried with your rabbit trail about church fathers, again. :)

Sorry if the early Church seems important to me at this point- I think they are important witnesses as to the beliefs of the early church- which is the essence of the topic after all.

Please release some control of the conversation to others.

ContraMundum

2nd August 2007, 08:42 AM

Actually, visionary, the Greek says:

Οψε δε σαββατων

Which means "after the Sabbath". You've got a bad translation.

Shall I continue?

nasa1

2nd August 2007, 06:19 PM

Zayit:

If this is the case; then why would his Jewish followers be on the way to the tomb? This would be an act of work on the Sabbath.

Mark 16
1(A)When the Sabbath was over, (B)Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, (C)bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him.

Exactly, Muffler. Yeshua rose on the 1st day of the week.

I think that His resurrection should be celebrated, without neglecting Passover.

If we could all celebrate both, what unity it would create!

<b>nasa1</i>

visionary

2nd August 2007, 08:11 PM

Actually, visionary, the Greek says:

Οψε δε σαββατων

Which means "after the Sabbath". You've got a bad translation.

Shall I continue?

and the difference between end of sabbath and after the sabbath is?????

visionary

2nd August 2007, 08:13 PM

Exactly, Muffler. Yeshua rose on the 1st day of the week.

I think that His resurrection should be celebrated, without neglecting Passover.

If we could all celebrate both, what unity it would create!

<b>nasa1</i>
The issue is sunday moorning vs saturday night.... Yeshua could have risen at sunset saturday night, which is the first day of the week just not the first day of the week that the romans/greeks would understand.

obsolete

2nd August 2007, 08:17 PM

and the difference between end of sabbath and after the sabbath is?????
There isn't any.

ContraMundum

3rd August 2007, 03:55 AM

The issue is sunday moorning vs saturday night.... Yeshua could have risen at sunset saturday night, which is the first day of the week just not the first day of the week that the romans/greeks would understand.

Is this what this is about? The Roman/Greek understanding before Christ? What's that got to do with the Bible??????

Answer: The early Church was given the understanding from the Apostles that Christ rose sometime after the Jewish Sabbath- most likely what we *now* call Saturday night, because the passage cited above is clear about that. This is why the Orthodox Churches still hold Easter Vigil on a Saturday night, and Sunday Morning is about the post-resuurection narrative. The ancient churches maintain the Judaic understanding, and always have.

Incidentaly- the church believed this BEFORE it was commited to writing in the Gospels. We believed and lived it before it was written down.

I can't believe I'm talking about this. I thought we settled that point three pages ago.

Anichai

3rd August 2007, 07:37 AM

they wouldn't have went to the tomb with the spices on Shabbat as it was the Sabbath. Whether it was one minute past midnight when they went it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't get too final on it.

visionary

3rd August 2007, 08:08 AM

they wouldn't have went to the tomb with the spices on Shabbat as it was the Sabbath. Whether it was one minute past midnight when they went it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't get too final on it.
Anointing the feet with tears sheds some light on the value she held for Him. And yes, she would have been there just as soon as sundown indicated sabbath was over.

talmidim

3rd August 2007, 02:04 PM

Anointing the feet with tears sheds some light on the value she held for Him. And yes, she would have been there just as soon as sundown indicated sabbath was over.I don't know Vis. Unescorted women traveling about at night was considered a no no in that society. I understand why Mary waited for the astronomical twilight. It was generally acceptable for women to be up early, even before sunrise. But not so out late. Besides the robbers, thieves and various other undesirables would generally all be asleep by the third watch of the night.

mpossoff

3rd August 2007, 02:26 PM

I don't know Vis. Unescorted women traveling about at night was considered a no no in that society. I understand why Mary waited for the astronomical twilight. It was generally acceptable for women to be up early, even before sunrise. But not so out late. Besides the robbers, thieves and various other undesirables would generally all be asleep by the third watch of the night.

Let's say He did ressurect on Sunday.

Still doesn't negate the fact that, although He might have or might have not resurrected on Shabbat or Sunday, that the Sabbath is the Sabbath.

If you get my drift.

What difference does it really make?

OK, He resurrected On Sunday. Doesn't mean that Sunday replaced the Sabbath.

Marc

A_Pioneer

3rd August 2007, 02:57 PM

Anointing the feet with tears sheds some light on the value she held for Him. And yes, she would have been there just as soon as sundown indicated sabbath was over.
Taking into account the fence commandment, she would have awaited for the third star. And then the walk, plenty of time for Y H V H to raise him on either Shabbat or the beginning of the first day of the week.
Still in limbo, it seems to me he had no desire for you to know the miniute or he would have made it a certain moment and told us the time.

Shalom

visionary

4th August 2007, 08:07 AM

The one annointing his feet had been forgiven much, and much of it went on at night, which is something she is familiar with including those who go bump in the night. She would not have been afraid, nor would she have felt the boundaries that other women would have felt, she would have been more determined than the traditions would have allowed other women, and she would have been there at first chance.

ContraMundum

4th August 2007, 10:10 AM

They visited his tomb when the sun came up- after He was risen.

Cheriann

4th August 2007, 10:32 AM

Wouldn't it make sense that Y'shua rose on the first day of the week just because the Sabbath is HaShem's day of rest? I understand that He is L-rd of the Sabbath and could resurrect Y'shua any day He wants.....
Either way-- Thanks be to G-d, because Y'shua did rise!!
Baruch HaShem
Cheriann

visionary

4th August 2007, 02:59 PM

I do not see a problem with the Lord resting on the sabbath in His Sleep, and rising first thing saturday night. It is this sunday morning about nine o'clock thinking that co-insides with easter sun rise services that bother me.

Henaynei

4th August 2007, 03:33 PM

throwing a stick on the fire:

jmo (well not just mine) Yeshua rose on HaBikkurim (there are several HaBikkurim in a year, this is the spring one, when the wheat harvest is brought to the Temple. The barley harvest is brought at Shavuot), the Festival of First Fruits which falls on the day after the first Shabbat after Pesakh.... that year it would have been First Day (aka as Sunday)

10 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 'He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 'Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the LORD. 13 'Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths {of an ephah} of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the LORD {for} a soothing aroma, with its drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine. 14 'Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
15 'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. 16 'You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the LORD. You will recognize "you shall count" as the command to count the Omer to Shavuot.... and as you can see that would have been initiated after Pesakh, and was during the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Henaynei

4th August 2007, 03:36 PM

btw - the First Day that Yeshua rose has no connection to the day called Easter because G-d uses His calendar not man's.

Easter is calculated by man and is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. As you can see there is no connection to G-d's calendar there :)

visionary

4th August 2007, 03:52 PM

Henaynei

4th August 2007, 04:19 PM

In the spring, the ‘Feast of First Fruits’ began the barley harvest. Barley, a cereal grass with edible seeds, was used to make bread and feed livestock. The feast was celebrated on the 16th of Abib/Nisan, the first month of the Hebrew calendar (Ex. 12:2; 13:4; Lv. 23.

The Mishnah (Bik. 3:2–9) gives a vivid account of the first fruit offering ceremony in the period of the Second Temple

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/Bikkurim_EncyJudaica.html
(http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/Bikkurim_EncyJudaica.html)
true about the barley harvest and the Omer - but whether it was wheat or barely scripture clearly says there was a first fruits grain offering brought to the Temple on "the day after the Shabbat," and that the counting of the Omer started on that day - thus it was the first Shabbat after Pesakh as that is when scripture says to start the Omer count :)

you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 'He shall wave the sheaf before the L-RD for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it. it was on the day of this First Fruits, on the day of presenting the first fruits to G-d that Yeshua rose :)

then were counted 7 Sabbaths + one day and that is Shavuot

'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. 16 'You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the L-RD. and then another grain offering is brought - but is not called first fruits :)

Cheriann

5th August 2007, 07:18 AM

Thanks for that lesson, it has brought alot more understanding to me.:)

visionary

5th August 2007, 07:22 AM

Henaynei

5th August 2007, 07:31 AM

So what is wrong with believing that Yeshua awoke from the grave saturday night, and He was first seen sunday morning before He assended to be the fruits fruit offering before His Father in Heaven, before He came back later that day to be seen and touched by the disciples.not a thing :) Saturday night is actually Sunday as you know. So this puts Him presenting Himself, and the freed captives, to HaShem at the time the wave offering was made in the Temple - just after Miriam saw Him in the Garden. :clap:

visionary

5th August 2007, 07:54 AM

Saturday night is probably any time after 6-9pm...after the sun has set.

ContraMundum

5th August 2007, 08:46 AM

So what is wrong with believing that Yeshua awoke from the grave saturday night, and He was first seen sunday morning before He assended to be the fruits fruit offering before His Father in Heaven, before He came back later that day to be seen and touched by the disciples.

Nothing....that has been what the church has consistantly taught for almost 2000 years.

A lot of people hate the historic church around here, almost always for things it doesn't actually believe.

Sephania

5th August 2007, 10:56 AM

Yeshua declares himself to be Lord of the Sabbath. If we are to let the Scriptures teach us, we have to admit that this is the only day that can legitimately be called "the Lord's Day."

The impetus for Christians keeping Sunday as "the Lord's Day" did not come from any scriptural command. Nowhere in the Bible is the fourth commandment (Exo. 20:8-11) nullified or replaced with a command to keep Sunday. As all the scholars above admit, Christians base their reverence for Sunday on the belief that Yeshua was resurrected on the first day of the week.

But what if Sunday wasn't the day on which Yeshua arose from the dead? What if the Scriptures really show that the Messiah was resurrected on another day?

look at the "first day of the week" passages in the New Testament. In doing so, we'll consult the original Greek text of the New Testament to determine what the Scriptures actually say about the day on which Yeshua was raised from the dead.

In most modern English translations of the Bible, the "first day of the week" is mentioned six times in the Gospels (with two additional occurrences elsewhere in the New Testament). Let's look at each of them in detail: MATTHEW 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week [mian sabbaton] began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. (NKJV)MARK 16:2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week [mias sabbaton], they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. (NKJV)MARK 16:9 Now when he rose early on the first day of the week [prote sabbatou], he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons. (NKJV)LUKE 24:1 Now on the first day of the week [mia ton sabbaton], very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. (NKJV)JOHN 20:1 On the first day of the week [mia ton sabbaton] Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. (NKJV)JOHN 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week [mia ton sabbaton], when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you." (NKJV)Almost all English translations render the Greek phrases prote sabbatou, mian sabbaton, mias sabbaton, and mia ton sabbaton as "first day of the week." However, the Greek word for "day" (hemera) does not appear in any of these verses. If we look at a literal rendering of these phrases, we see that they would be better translated "First Sabbath" (prote sabbatou) or "First of the Sabbaths" (mian sabbaton, mias sabbaton, and mia ton sabbaton).

Let's review Young's Literal Translation, from the respected 19th-century biblical scholar J.N. Young, to see how he translates these same verses: MATTHEW 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths [sabbaton], at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths [mian sabbaton], came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre, (YLT) MARK 16:2 And early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths [mias sabbaton], they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun, (YLT) LUKE 24:1 And on the first of the sabbaths [mia ton sabbaton], at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain {others} with them, (YLT) JOHN 20:1 And on the first of the sabbaths [mia ton sabbaton], Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb, (YLT) JOHN 20:19 It being, therefore, evening, on that day, the first of the sabbaths [mia ton sabbaton], and the doors having been shut where the disciples were assembled, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith to them, 'Peace to you;' (YLT) MARK 16:9 And he, having risen in the morning of the first of the sabbaths [prote sabbatou], did appear first to Mary the Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven demons; (YLT) Apparently trying to be consistent, Young translated prote sabbatou as the plural "first of the sabbaths" in Mark 16:9. However, this is grammatically inaccurate. Both the Greek adjective prote and the noun sabbatou are singular. A more accurate translation would be "First Sabbath," as shown below:MARK 16:9 And he, having risen in the morning of the First Sabbath [prote sabbatou], did appear first [proton] to Mary the Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven demons; (literal translation) As you can see, in all the Gospel accounts of the resurrection, Young translates the resurrection passages to show that Yeshua was raised on the "First of the Sabbaths." What would "First of the Sabbaths" or "First Sabbath" have meant to a 1st-century Jew? Was there such a thing that would have been understood by those living at that time in Judea?

Absolutely! As documented in Leviticus 23:15, there were seven weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost that were to be counted every year:LEVITICUS 23:15 'And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the [annual Passover] Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed.' (NKJV) At the time of Yeshua, there was an annual date right after Passover known as the "First Sabbath." This was the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath.

Johnston M. Cheney, in his harmony of the Gospels, sheds additional light on this "First Sabbath":Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. (p. 230, The Life of Christ in Stereo) The "First of the Sabbaths," mentioned by all of the Gospel writers (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19), refers to this very "First Sabbath" after Passover! In fact, when English translators render the Greek phrases mian sabbaton, mias sabbaton, and mia ton sabbaton as "first day of the week," they do so primarily because of tradition. The most logical translation would be the literal one: "First of the Sabbaths." If we take the original Greek text at face value, we can see that it is very likely that Yeshua was resurrected early on the morning of the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high day (John 19:31)! This would mean that there is absolutely no support for Christians venerating Sunday as "the Lord's Day"!

You can read more on this mistranslation of the sabbaton issue regarding Paul and his 'Sunday service' and when he traveled during unleavened bread or after ( sheds more light on the above proposal). Sabbath vs Sunday (http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/sabbath.htm)

Sephania

5th August 2007, 12:43 PM

Here is another article which explains it indepth with charts on all the different views. It also contains a passage from Mishnah, that speaks of what is allowable in regard to attending a dead body on 'Shabbat.

A. They prepare all that is needed for a corpse.
B. They anoint and rinse it,
C. on condition that they not move any limb of the corpse.
D. They remove the mattress from under it.
E. And they put on [cool] sand so that it will keep.
F. They tie the chin,
G. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
H. And so in the case of a beam which broke --
I. they support it with a bench or the seams of a bed,
J. not so that it will go up, but so that it will not droop [further].
K. They do not close the eyes of a corpse on the Sabbath,
L. nor on an ordinary day at the moment the soul goes forth.
M. And he who closes the eyes of a corpse at the moment the soul goes forth, lo, this one sheds blood. (p. 207, The Mishnah, A New Translation, Shabbat 23:5)

This helps to show that the Sabbath the woman rested on was the Sabbath of unleavened bread but on the weekly sabbath they would be allowed to go to the tomb. And when they did early Shabbat ( weekly) morning the tomb was empty! So he arose on Shabbat but even earlier than first suspected , by some that is.

When was Christ resurrected? (http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/sabbath_res.htm)

Henaynei

5th August 2007, 02:44 PM

Nothing....that has been what the church has consistently taught for almost 2000 years.

A lot of people hate the historic church around here, almost always for things it doesn't actually believe.I think that the real problem is not that Yeshua rose after sunset on Saturday, called by some to be Sunday, but that the "historic church" uprooted the resurrection from it's place on G-d's calendar and transplanted it into a pagan calendar and then outlawed anyone who kept it according to G-d's calendar .... consigning those who did so to death and called them heretics ....

yeshuaslavejeff

15th March 2008, 09:56 AM

Yes, that's right.

Can anyone find the website that detailed how in order to fulfill and be accurate with all of Scripture,
the resurrection
had to occur right at sunset on Sabbath
after 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb (72 hours). ?
If the resurrection was an hour before sunset,
If the resurrection was an hour after sunset,
either/or,
Then some part of Scripture has to be 'adapted' to fit.
But,
If the resurrection occurred right at sunset
then all of Scripture fits precisely without having to explain anything to make it fit.

As important as this is I failed to keep track of the site,
figuring I could just go back and find it again.

(albeit, the site itself is not per se the important aspect,
rather the simple disclosure and simplicity of Hebrew Scripture fitting PRECISELY and EXACTLY,
every jot and tittle being accurate and accounted for.)

Torah

17th March 2008, 04:00 PM

ContraMundum

18th March 2008, 03:08 AM

I think that the real problem is not that Yeshua rose after sunset on Saturday, called by some to be Sunday, but that the "historic church" uprooted the resurrection from it's place on G-d's calendar and transplanted it into a pagan calendar and then outlawed anyone who kept it according to G-d's calendar .... consigning those who did so to death and called them heretics ....

Ummm...what? This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying that sometime after sunset on Shabbat Yeshua rose- eg: the first day of the week also called Sunday. Most would agree. Somehow, you then link this to the uprooting of "God's calendar" and the sins of Medieval Catholicism. I don't see the connection. Most historic churches hold easter services on what is now Satruday night, and of course any time Sunday before Sunset would be ok too. I'm probably reading you wrong, but I don't see a valid connection, just an attack on the Catholics again.

By the way, you do know that the Calendar the Jews keep and the Messianics (and me personally as well) follow has been altered and wasn't codified until around the 11thC, right? Every religion keeps a calendar that is formed on alterations and the like. It is really a matter of faith and humanly arbitrated order that makes one believe that they are 100% exactly right about keeping God's calendar to the exact day. The times have been treated with much human arbitration. Personally, I think this is allowed by God.

visionary

18th March 2008, 09:08 PM

First fruits/Wave sheaf is the Lord's feast that Yeshua fulfilled with His resurrection ... not easter sunday.