LA Times Writer Loses Faith

[Fish and Bread]

Here (http://www.latimes.com/news/la-me-lostfaith21jul21,0,2152302.story?page=1&track=ntottext&coll=la-tot-topstories) is a six page front-page story from the LA Times on religion that I found interesting. Included in the piece are both some very positive and some very negative impressions of Roman Catholicism in the United States.

[Protinus]

I was just about to post that FnB!! Thanks.A wonderfulfully written article about finding faith, nurturing it and ultimately losing it throught the pain of the 2002 Sex abuse crisis.

This has been my exact path as a convert- finding the "one true Church", experiencing much joy and love in cultivating my faith, then to have it shaken to the bone by the 2002 crisis that I had to do a whole theologic inventory review and assessment.:(

[Fantine]

The Catholic God is a God of mercy and forgiveness. But it is possible to forgive a wrongdoer and still realize that he can no longer function effectively in ministry.

This journalist is not the only one to have lost faith.

Catholic New York journalist Jimmy Breslin wrote an entire book about it--The Church That Forgot Christ.

Publishers' Weekly said:

This is a very angry book. It is the story of the pedophilia scandal that has rocked the Catholic Church, seen through the eyes of Pulitzer Prize–winner Breslin. As he did in I Want to Thank My Brain for Remembering Me, the author uses New York City as his backdrop. Breslin grew up in Queens and has a true affection for the meaning of the Church, but little respect for its hierarchy. He targets two bishops, Thomas Daily—who once responded to accusations by proclaiming, "I am not a policeman. I am a shepherd"—formerly of Brooklyn, and William Murphy, still ensconced on Long Island. Both worked for the disgraced Bernard Cardinal Law in Boston and wantonly transferred pedophiles from parish to parish—without notifying unsuspecting parents—where they continued systematically molesting children. When they came to the New York area, their blatant conduct continued, and Breslin has the grand jury minutes to prove it against Murphy, whom he nicknamed "Mansion Murphy" because of his proclivity toward a luxurious lifestyle.

http://www.amazon.com/Church-That-Forgot-Christ/dp/0743266471

I really think that it is the coverup that angers Catholics more than the individual (and rare) cases of pedophilia. The pedophiliac priests, God forgive them, were driven by compulsion and mental illness. Their protectors were driven by greed and pride and arrogance.

Yes, it is harder to forgive the shielders.

[Protinus]

The Catholic God is a God of mercy and forgiveness. But it is possible to forgive a wrongdoer and still realize that he can no longer function effectively in ministry.

This journalist is not the only one to have lost faith.

Catholic New York journalist Jimmy Breslin wrote an entire book about it--The Church That Forgot Christ.

Publishers' Weekly said:



http://www.amazon.com/Church-That-Forgot-Christ/dp/0743266471

I really think that it is the coverup that angers Catholics more than the individual (and rare) cases of pedophilia. The pedophiliac priests, God forgive them, were driven by compulsion and mental illness. Their protectors were driven by greed and pride and arrogance.

Yes, it is harder to forgive the shielders.


Well said Fantine...it is the heirarchy...the sheilders that I can not get beyond. It has truly be a struggle and has rocked the very essence of my faith. I believe that I am coming back...but as a change agent for our Church!!

[JasonV]

The entire pedophile scandal confuses me.

I have an old friend who was a pre VII altar boy in Boston, MA. I asked him about the entire scandal thing, and he says he never even heard of a problem between a Priest and an Altar Boy. He was the kid who got up every single morning to help at Mass, and sometimes twice on Sunday. He asked another lapsed pre VII Altar Boy friend of his if he ever had anything happen, or knew of anything, and his friend likewise stated that nothing of the sort was going on in the late 40's, early 50's.

Again, they both served in Boston. One of the locations of the bigger scandals.

So what happened between the 50's and the 80's?

[Protinus]

read this Jason...and weep.:(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases


The entire pedophile scandal confuses me.

I have an old friend who was a pre VII altar boy in Boston, MA. I asked him about the entire scandal thing, and he says he never even heard of a problem between a Priest and an Altar Boy. He was the kid who got up every single morning to help at Mass, and sometimes twice on Sunday. He asked another lapsed pre VII Altar Boy friend of his if he ever had anything happen, or knew of anything, and his friend likewise stated that nothing of the sort was going on in the late 40's, early 50's.

Again, they both served in Boston. One of the locations of the bigger scandals.

So what happened between the 50's and the 80's?

[JasonV]

That's a very sad article there Protinus. I found this part very interesting:

There had been charges that a minority of the clergy had been practicing such behavior for decades, alleging that a "homosexual collective" within the priesthood viewed child sex abuse as a "religious rite" and "rite of passage" for altar boys and young priests.

The second Presiding Bishop of my Church, ++Leadbeater, was accused of pederasty. I just read his biography, and it does seem that he was guilty on at least a couple of occasions. He apparently taught some form of masturbation ritual that was supposed to help send out "spiritual energy" to God via orgasm. Basically what some today might call "sex magic".

While I think his contributions to my church were immense, it's unfortunate that all the good someone does is undone by the bad.

[Protinus]

That's a very sad article there Protinus.

The two issues of pedophilia and homosexuality are separate imho. Over 30% of the priesthood is gay, this is true...but it has no relationship with the propensity of priest predators who prey on children.

It is the hierarchy that is corrupt and why the layity must demand accountability and lay control in parishes...financially, liturgically....with control of clergy and bishop elections.

4 major American archdioceses have declared bankruptcy defending sex cases....it must and will stop with emergent layity controls.

[JasonV]

I must admit that my denominations open acceptance of homosexuality makes that a "non-issue" for me.

[Protinus]

I must admit that my denominations open acceptance of homosexuality makes that a "non-issue" for me.


The Church must make wholesale changes about homosexuality. It presides over a good portion of it's priesthood being gay without acknowledging it and it must account for the homosexual Catholics that are in communion.

The Church, TODAY, could bless the unitive love of gay and lesbian couples. They would not be sacramentally blessed- the sacrament instituted by Christ, but the service would signify the union in the body of the Church such as that of non-ordained sister or monk.

But it will not.

[JasonV]

We have one religious order in my Church, the Order of Saint Thomas. It's pretty much accepted that most of the members of that Order are Gay. We have Gay Bishops, Gay Priests, and Gay laity. Nobody cares and nobody considers it a sin.

I realize that's a bit of a theological stretch for both the Holy See, and other Patriarchiates, but it works for us.

Sometime I should do a thread on the differences between liberal Catholics and the Liberal Catholic Church. Just a little rundown maybe?

[Protinus]

Sometime I should do a thread on the differences between liberal Catholics and the Liberal Catholic Church. Just a little rundown maybe?

That would be outstanding Jason!!:thumbsup:

[Fantine]

Maybe I'm naive, but I really believe that most gay men who became priests did so because they knew that the only expression of sexuality open to them was forbidden.

Becoming a priest was an honorable thing to do. It was not only carrying one's cross bravely, but doing something beautiful for God at the same time.

I agree that pedophilia and homosexuality are two different things. As a matter of fact, a priest I knew on Long Island (now deceased) was accused of pedophilia by nine different girls, all adults at the time of the accusations. One girl made the first accusation, and others came forward. A newspaper boy who used to deliver to the rectory came forward and said he remembered seeing the priest kissing girls (all many years earlier.)

But the point of that story is not to be sensational, but to point out that everyone who enters the priesthood, whether gay or straight, has to make a mature decision about celibacy, and I don't see the decision as being any different for a gay or a straight seminarian.

Since we have a male-only priesthood, I think that gay men bring a special gift to a ministry that encompasses men, women, and children. Because they are often more in touch with their feminine side (and everyone has masculine and feminine sides) they are better able to understand, counsel, and communicate with women.

Gay men's attraction to the priesthood may have been a part of God's plan in designing a celibate priesthood (which conservative Catholics say He did....)

God knew that women would need to have priests who were especially understanding of their situation, and He knew that gay priests would help fill that gap....

BTW, I just got an alumni bulletin from my all girls' Catholic high school, and saw that one of the ladies in my graduating class was ordained an Episcopal priest.....

(I was kind of surprised they published it!)

[Protinus]

good points to ponder Fantine...I hadn't thought of gay men actually seeking the priesthood with celibacy in mind as means to thwart their desires...not that that was what you were completely saying...but I'm already thinking about a rebuttal to that...I just don't know it quite yet. Is that the same as relinquishing heterosexual desires if you are already "disordered" anyway? What about the "disordered" homosexual applicants?? hmmm:confused:

[JasonV]

I don't think it's that new of an idea JP. I was told by my former EO Priest that monastics enter the monastery to help them overcome their homosexuality. He stated that the overwhelming majority of monastics are homosexuals.

[Protinus]

I don't think it's that new of an idea JP. I was told by my former EO Priest that monastics enter the monastery to help them overcome their homosexuality. He stated that the overwhelming majority of monastics are homosexuals.

I'm sorry, this is just so new to me. I have to pray about this.:crossrc:

[JasonV]

JP...it's like 3 am in New York. What are you doing up?

[Protinus]

JP...it's like 3 am in New York. What are you doing up?

sleep probs.....:(

[Fantine]

I think that there is more than one way that men (or women) can have disordered thinking.

One thing that I find troubling about Catholic leadership today is the obsession with sexual sins, and the unspoken agenda that sexual sins are somehow worse than infractions against the other nine commandments.

Seminarians could enter the priesthood with other "thought disorders."

They could have a "Messiah complex," for example--entering the priesthood so that they could "save the world" (bit grandiose, don't you think?)

They could be entering the priesthood to escape (this is also a possibility for nuns and monks) the demands and insecurities of lay life. After all, they'd have guaranteed job security, retirement, medical care, etc.

They could want the built-in respect and authority that the priesthood conveys.

Sadly, there have been many alcoholic priests in the past (I knew two who went for treatment--one returned to become one of the most inspirational, transformed human beings I've ever met.)

But it boils down to this: On a 'case-by-case' basis, these 'thought disorders' would, I am sure, be addressed, but none would de facto disqualify someone from becoming a priest. Even though someone who is a former alcoholic, for example, might have many of the characteristics of a 'dry drunk--' an overly controlling personality (which, although attractive to conservatives, puts the rest of us off....)

I think we all need to remember that the most disordered thinking is the inability to love at all. God bless those who are able to love and sacrifice the fulfillment of eros for agape.