I'm concerned about "True Orthodoxy"

[AJB4]

TAW user (and fellow New Zealander) MichaelArchangelos has told me that he will be baptized into a "True Orthodox" church while we were in a PM discussion.

These "True Orthodox" churches, no doubt, think that the "canonical" Orthodox churches are not true Orthodox churches, and that they are engaged in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism.

I'm quite concerned about these. Should I be concerned? The church in my town is Greek Orthodox and that's one of the churches that they said were heretical, involved in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism, and was in communion with the heretical Patriarch Bartholomew.

Seriously, this could be an area of concern for me...someone dissuade me please.:help:

[Orthosdoxa]

Oh boy.... stay ffaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr away from anything with the name "True" or "Genuine" in the name. It's a sure sign that it is NOT. :(

[ma2000]

Unless, of course, it's The One True Old Posters of the Genuine Ancient Way in Exile From Christian Forums Resistance in Communion with Baklavas Synod in Exile Abroad.
Other than that, stay away!

:)

[Ioan cel Nou]

TAW user (and fellow New Zealander) MichaelArchangelos has told me that he will be baptized into a "True Orthodox" church while we were in a PM discussion.

These "True Orthodox" churches, no doubt, think that the "canonical" Orthodox churches are not true Orthodox churches, and that they are engaged in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism.

I'm quite concerned about these. Should I be concerned? The church in my town is Greek Orthodox and that's one of the churches that they said were heretical, involved in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism, and was in communion with the heretical Patriarch Bartholomew.

Seriously, this could be an area of concern for me...someone dissuade me please.:help:
I've been where you are back when I converted. My wife's home town is pretty much in heartland of the Romanian Old Calendarists and I know, and have spoken to many times, a monk from their monastery at Slatioara. They are undoubtedly good and sincere people with genuine concerns (and the Romanians are far more moderate than some others in the 'True' Orthodox groups), but do these concerns justify schism? My answer, after much soul searching, was no. I don't normally recommend arrticles from this website because it's full of Old Calendarist articles itself and can be rather shrill, but this article is well worth a read in my opinion, and deals with this exact issue:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx

James

[choirfiend]

Heresy is from matters of doctrine. Ecumenism is neither a matter of doctrine, nor a way of error when practiced correctly. It is the movement to work with people in denominations to bring show them the truth. It is possible to go too far and say that "everyone is ok" as is practiced in MOST Protestantism (your denomination excluded,) but this is not an Orthodox teaching, and is not part of the regular, good ol' Orthodox Church.

"True" Orthodox churches are no such thing. They are either schismatics or vagante, are outside the Church, and as such, are no different than any of the thousands of those groups who have missed the mark and not understood the Truth. However, I personally find them to be must worse off than your general uninformed denomination--b/c they have met the Truth face to face in Orthodoxy, and have chosen to become schismatic or remain separated. This is an active rejection of the Church, and is NOT something to get mixed up in. It brings me SO much sadness to hear that our young convert friend is so deluded. Stay FAR AWAY!

[AJB4]

Heresy is from matters of doctrine. Ecumenism is neither a matter of doctrine, nor a way of error when practiced correctly. It is the movement to work with people in denominations to bring show them the truth. It is possible to go too far and say that "everyone is ok" as is practiced in MOST Protestantism (your denomination excluded,) but this is not an Orthodox teaching, and is not part of the regular, good ol' Orthodox Church.

"True" Orthodox churches are no such thing. They are either schismatics or vagante, are outside the Church, and as such, are no different than any of the thousands of those groups who have missed the mark and not understood the Truth. However, I personally find them to be must worse off than your general uninformed denomination--b/c they have met the Truth face to face in Orthodoxy, and have chosen to become schismatic or remain separated. This is an active rejection of the Church, and is NOT something to get mixed up in. It brings me SO much sadness to hear that our young convert friend is so deluded. Stay FAR AWAY!
Believe you me, I'm not deluded by it...I was just wondering, I guess. In the Greek Orthodox church in my city, I visited them, and they seemed to be fully committed to one church. They seemed accepting of the sincerity of people from other churches (as I would be), but they weren't accepting of other churches as such.

[Prawnik]

The fact that the "True Orthodox In Resistance" constantly divide, schism and feud amongst themselves should tell you something.

To speak of Tradition, the Bishops that shepherded the Church did not always like each other or get along, but they didn't anathematize each other at the drop of a hat, either.

[-Kyriaki-]

I somehow get the feeling that this is a thread I should not be reading.

*backs out slowly*

[nestoj]

The fact that the "True Orthodox In Resistance" constantly divide, schism and feud amongst themselves should tell you something.

To speak of Tradition, the Bishops that shepherded the Church did not always like each other or get along, but they didn't anathematize each other at the drop of a hat, either.
Hey! We are not doing any such thing. :D

The One True Old Posters of the Genuine Ancient Way in Exile From Christian Forums Resistance in Communion with Baklavas Synod in Exile Abroad, is solid as a rock and in unbreakable union with each of its members...:amen:

nestoj
God helps

[Emmanuel-A]

All of the True Orthodox Churches


You mean there's more than one True Church ?

[Kristos]

TAW user (and fellow New Zealander) MichaelArchangelos has told me that he will be baptized into a "True Orthodox" church while we were in a PM discussion.

These "True Orthodox" churches, no doubt, think that the "canonical" Orthodox churches are not true Orthodox churches, and that they are engaged in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism.

I'm quite concerned about these. Should I be concerned? The church in my town is Greek Orthodox and that's one of the churches that they said were heretical, involved in the "mother heresy" of ecumenicism, and was in communion with the heretical Patriarch Bartholomew.

Seriously, this could be an area of concern for me...someone dissuade me please.:help:
Stick with the local Greek Church. Not because it's Greek but because it's local AND it's Orthodox. You won't go wrong there.

[TrueHope]

For more information see www.esphigmenou.com (http://www.esphigmenou.com/)

I will pass this info to my hub. This is very interesting. Since, though I am here in GR. I do not watch tv nor follow the news (They speak far too fast for my measly brain to catch half of what they say...)

My priest has not mentioned anything regarding this...and if he has, I may not have understood due to his way of speaking. Again, I have to fully concentrate and even then, I get about 70% and pray I can fill in the puzzle correctly. This is an outrage!!!! A downright outrage!!!!!!

[Jacob4707]

TAW user (and fellow New Zealander) MichaelArchangelos has told me that he will be baptized into a "True Orthodox" church while we were in a PM discussion.

That does not come as a surprise.

[JustinHesychast]

I somehow get the feeling that this is a thread I should not be reading.

*backs out slowly*

*looks around*

Hrn. :sorry: I think I get the same feeling. :sick:

[Orthosdoxa]

Michael, these "true" Orthodox churches then turn on each other as not "Orthodox" enough and continue to splinter, splinter, splinter. These "true" churches are not even in communion with each other, for heaven's sake. How is THAT the Church?

I hope you do not do this unwise thing you are considering.

[Sothron]

Michael, these "true" Orthodox churches then turn on each other as not "Orthodox" enough and continue to splinter, splinter, splinter. These "true" churches are not even in communion with each other, for heaven's sake. How is THAT the Church?

I hope you do not do this unwise thing you are considering.

I agree 100%. I feel you are making a terrible mistake by associating with these schismatics.

[Vasileios]

Dear Lord, not the esphigmenou story again...

Michael, you are breaking away from the church that gave us the elder Porphyrios and the elder Paisios. Both warned sternly against these churches you consider joining. It is a GRAVE sin to splinter the Body of Christ and an even greater to deny the Holy Spirit as some of those "true" churches do, claiming that the Holy Mysteries are invalid.

You are treading on a terribly dangerous path. For the love of Christ, reconsider. I have seen the fruits of these churches and they are not good.

As for the esphigmenou, I have posted stuff about them elsewhere, if anyone wishes to read about that sad affair. Suffice it to say, nobody in the Holy Mountain agrees with what they are doing.

[Andrew21091]

There are some churches out there that refer to themselves as "true" Orthodox churches. They are schismatic and not in communion with the rest of the Church.

[Sothron]

If they do not have bishops recognized by the Orthodox Church then they are schismatics. Who is the bishop and archbishop for this "True Orthodox" church?

[EmperorConstantine]

True/Genuine Orthodox Churches are not.

With regards to the local Antiochian priest; this could just be a priest thing. Yes, priests are human as well which means that not all are perfect. However, this does not give license to judge the entire Orthodox Church because of the faults of one priest. Am I to think that all white people in Birmingham, Georgia hate all the teenage black girls because of when three were killed at a Baptists church in the 1960's just because they were black? Because Jack the Ripper was in London am I to think that all Londoners are rapists? Stalin was from the country of Georgia, am I to think that all people from here are just as bad if not worse than he?

Think about it.

(BTW, the Orthodox Church, at large, does recognize Roman Catholic priests to the point that if an RC priest became Orthodox, he would not have to go through the four or so years at seminary; or something like that)


But before you dismiss the entire Church as "heretics" or "ultra ecumenists" or whatever, visit a different Orthodox church that is not this Antiochian one and that is not one of the so-called "True" Churches.

[Jacob4707]

Are these the kinds of things that you should speak or write to the priest about? If so, and if you do (or already have) and he doesn't acknowledge these things as being wrong, should you or have you written or spoken to the bishop about them?

Do the other members of the church care about these irregularities and illicit activities? Or are you a lone voice on the matter?

[Sothron]

Michael,

Can you not bring up these problems with that priest? And if that does not work his bishop? Don't you think giving up on the real Orthodox Church because of one priest's actions is a bit...drastic?

[jckstraw72]

if youre interested in "True" Orthodoxy, then please read this article by an Athonite Monk .. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx

to shcism is totally ANTI-Patristic.

and good Lord please stay away from Abp. Gregory of Denver, he's one of the craziest -- even other "True" Orthodox have warned about him.

think about people like Elder Joseph who inspired a resurgence of Athonite spirituality -- i read that he joined a schism group at one time but soon returned to a canonical Church bc of the constant schisming within the "True" Churches.

Michael -- it sounds like your priest is whacky, but that doesn't disprove the Church -- that's like saying that Judas disproves the disciples and even Christ's ability to lead.

[MishaM]

Michael,

Are you truly interested in "Abp." Gregory? Do you want to know of him from someone who put their trust in him? Do you want to know of him from someone who was baptized by him? Do you want to know of someone who was a part of the Synod that made him a Bishop and an Abp? Do you want to know from people who attended Liturgy at the Monastery and received Confession from him at the Monastery? Do you want to know from someone who was married in that monastery?

I have been and done and seen all of these things because I was under his care, living in his diocese, attending his Monastery, married in his monastery, baptized by him. I have seen all of these things. His various jumps and the reasons for these. Now he is the sole Bishop of his own jurisdiction and his own one bishop Synod, this is not the first time he has done this.

Michael please, I am only writing now because I have perssonal experience in this. I used ot be one of his followers. I was on this forum under a different name telling anyone and everyone that they wrre heretics and they were schismatics and that they were not Orthodox but when it al comes down t it I was the one who was not Orthodox because I as looking to the letter of the law to save my soul and not to the Mercy and Love and Compassion of God!

I am willing to share with you my whole story. I have repented of my sins and continue ot ask forgiveness of those here at this forum as well as others where my words led many (some of whom have contacted me later) away from the Church. I do not judge you. I have been where you are. On fire with zeal for the Truth. But trust me if this zeal is misdirected and wrongfully applied to your lifer and your understanding of the Faith then it will lead you (as it did me for three years) down a very dark and evil path.

Due to my sins I can not receive the Mysteries for some time. This is the price I must pay for my actions. I can only offer you my advice and my story. I can pray for you as I shall begin to right now. I only wish that anything I have said, even though my words are useless because of my sins, that something might have a small effect that ou would be open to talk about this before you make any sudden changes.

Live out your Faith and work out your Salvation in fear and trembling. I myself tarted with the Antiochians (as did Gregory, he was born and raised into their Church being he of Lebanese descent) and within one Sunday I "knew" that "this was not Orthodoxy." I attended the GOA parish in my town at the time once as well before shunning them as well as not Orthodox. Where did this get me? Lost. Without the Mysteries for 3 years and now I am left in the same situation due to my sins. The only thing different is now I am learning what Orthodox is from those who have lived it all their lives and not from those who take it upon themselves ot judge what is and is not Orthodoxy.

I have already said too much but I will pray for you and I am here if you ever want to talk.

In Christ.
Juvenaly

[prodromos]

Have you considered seeking the advice of priests in other canonical churches in New Zealand? I have had a fair bit to do with Hieromonk Ambrose of ROCOR through another forum (he has a heart condition that makes it painful to lie down, so he used time he might otherwise be sleeping, keeping the Catholics honest on the Catholic Answers forum :D ). He would no doubt recommend you correspond with Archimandrite Alexis, the abbot of the Holy Transfiguration Monastery near Bombala in NSW, Australia as he is often called upon to mediate whenever there have been disputes within the church. According to Fr Ambrose, he is graced by God with much discernment.

You can find contact details of these and many others in the ROCOR Parish Directory for Australia and New Zealand (http://www.rocor.org.au/news/?page_id=2)

Fr Ambrose is very approachable. He is a Kiwi of Irish descent who later joined the Serbian Orthodox Church, became a monk, was ordained a priest, and then later canonically transferred to the Russian Church Abroad to help with the large number of Russian immigrants in New Zealand. He is in Wellington though, which is not so close to you.

John

[AJB4]

Michael, can I ask you a question? Where did you get the idea about ecumenicism being the "mother heresy" anyway...who are you quoting on that?

[prodromos]

Michael, can I ask you a question? Where did you get the idea about ecumenicism being the "mother heresy" anyway...who are you quoting on that?
St Justin Popovich called ecumenism a "pan-heresy" because it encompasses all heresies previously known in the history of the Church.

In September 2004 in Thessaloniki a conference was held to discuss ecumenism titled "Ecumenism: Origins, Expectations, and Disenchantment". Attending and speaking were priests and monks from a wide range of canonical Orthodox Churches. Many of the papers presented at the conference can be found at Uncut Mountain Press (http://uncutmountain.com/index.php/uncut/pages/2005/02/P6/), just click on the "Read More" link at the bottom of each article.

[Ioan cel Nou]

I would like to add this for Michael's benefit. I hope that he like many traditionalists, respects Elder Cleopa of Sihastria and that, therefore, this episode related by him about the former starets of Sihastria when the new Calendar was introduced:

" In 1925, when the New Calendar was introduced, Protosingelos Ioanichie was much afflicted with grief. He did not know if it was right to switch to the New Style calendar. He then locked himself in his cell and began to fast and pray until he would receive an Indication from the Lord what he should do. After 20 days of this fast, the old man was found in his cell, very weakened. Then, having partaken of the Holy Eucharist, and been given a little food, after two days he said to his brethren and spiritual children:

"Many trials did I endure during those twenty days from the devil. I even had the thought to kill myself, and I beat myself with burning twigs. Then I saw before me a legion of demons who said: 'Come, let us cut down the old man who wants to be holy.' Then they cried out against me saying : 'Who told you that you could become holy?'
"'But who told you that man cannot become holy?' I responded.
"On another day they said to me: 'It matters little that you fast, for your life is still firmly in our hands!'
"Then I said to them: 'I place my hope in the mercy of God to deliver me from your hands!'
"After many more days of fasting, I saw above me in the air three saints dressed as hierarchs and recognized them as the Three Holy Hierarchs (Ss. Basil the Great, Gregory the Theologian and John Chrysostom). From the midst of them, as in one loud voice, they said: 'Ioanichie, why do you struggle so and not submit to obedience? Do you not understand that obedience is far greater than sacrifice? Therefore be obedient to those placed over you, and do not any longer question the revised calendar.' Then, after imparting to me their blessing, the three ascended heavenward, and I never saw them again." From that day onward, the old man never again disputed the calendar issue."

You can find it in context here:
http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_ioanichie_moroi_life.htm

Elder Cleopa has always encouraged obedience even in such circumstances and would never encourage anyone to do what you, Michael, are proposing. I know how you feel. I've been there myself, though perhaps not quite so far down that road and it was the example of the likes of Elder Cleopa that prevented my going into schism. I hope such might also be the case with you.

James

[ma2000]

Father Gheorghe Calciu about Elder Cleopa:

Somebody told me that once some christians came to ask Father Cleopa about the two calendars. Father Cleopa had asked them: "Is there in our calendar or yours (the old calendar) a saint callled Saint Calendar? If there is non, why do you keep worshipping him? Do you make saints out of human things? Do you make an idol out of the calendar, which is a human thing? It doesn't have mouth and it doesn't speak, it doesn't have ears and it doesn't hear. Go to your homes and don't put the calendar ahead of saints."

[Vasileios]

Michael, both the elders Porphyrios and Paisios knew fully well the real deal about the calendars, plus more. This is a well-known story in Greece.

I agree that Metaxakis was a man who caused harm to the Church, including the business with the calendar. Fr. Romanides also acknowledged the masonry you did.

But the fact remains that these HOLY men, warned against moving away from the church.

The elder Porphyrios was on the new calendar, and imo he is the greatest saint of the 20th century. The elder Paisios was a desert father of the 20th century. Ioan just told you about the elder Cleopas.

So tell me, how do you think that you know better than people who have attained theosis, have seen the Uncreated Light of Mt. Tabor, have been truly temples of the Holy Spirit? In all our history as Orthodox WE LOOK TO THE SAINTS for guidance. We obey the saints.

Thank God we had such saints in the 20th century as some would want to distort the teachings of saints of centuries past. We obey the living tradition of the Church Michael, and that is OUR SAINTS.

Please, please, reconsider.

In Christ,
Vasileios

[ma2000]

http://old.jurnalul.ro/poze/0/0/0/0/0/1/0/9/5/10953_poza.jpg

http://www.ziua.net/display.php?id=199512&data=2006-05-13

Un-burried seven years after his death, the body of archimandrite Ilarion Argatu was found intact.

From Fr Argatu's book "445 spiritual answers":

403. There was a christian woman at Boroaia who came to church, fasted every time, was receiving communion, and was a good christian, although her mother believed in the Old Calendar. One day, she became very sick and couldn't get up out of bed. She then sent someone to tell me to come to give her communion. I hasted to her house and was amazed how aunt Ileana became so sick all of a sudden. When I started saying the prayers for the confession, she told me:
- "Father, please, this time and because it is the last time, I feel I must ask you to mention in your prayers the today saints by the old calendar!"
- Why, aunt Ileana, you have never asked this and never believed in the old calendar, you always thought they are wrong?
- I know, father, but please, this time, use the prayers for confession and Eucharisty for the old calendar. My mother died being upset with me because she had never convinced me to go to the old calendar church; I want to make up with mum at least in the last moments of my life.
No matter how much I insisted and how many arguments I broght to her, that in the last moment of their lives, people can loose their redemption and loose everything good they had in their lives and that that was a temptation from the devil, I couldn't do anything to convince her. So I had to give her the confession and communion the way she had asked. I had insisted that her family should bring her an old calendar priest, if she wanted so, but aunt Ileana didn't want other priest than me.
Soon after I received aunt Ileana's confession, she died. I burried her. I was moved by the woman's stubborness, because all the time I was carefull to convince her not to go to the old calendar church, knowing that her whole family went there, and in the last moments of her life loosing her without any way to save her. I prayed to God to show me where is aunt Ileana's soul!
While I was praying, the wall from east dissapeared and a young man dressed in white appeared.
- Did yoy ask from the Creator to show you where is the soul of aunt Ileana?
- Yes, I replied.
- Come with me and see! He took me in the air and went towards north. In an instant we passed over mountains, valleys, forrests, villages, cities and we descended in a dark place full of thorns, rocks and short and sharp grass. The youg man took some grass in his hand and opened the earth like a door.
- Descend! he ordered.
- I don't see anything, I said, because it was very dark and I couldn't see any stairs.
- Let there be light! the young man ordered. Then there was light an I saw some stairs; I don't know form what material they were made of, but we descended for a long time in the earth until we came in front of a wall, which was made neither out of stone, nor iron, nor cement; I don't know what it was made of. There were many doors. We stopped in fron of a door, at which the young man knocked. The door opened and I entered a room not too big, with dark grey walls. In the middle of the room sat aount Ileana on a chair in a very powerful and heavy light. When she saw me, her face lightened and said:
- You came to get me out of here! I didn'tlisten to you and look what I have to endure! This hot and heavy light; my shoulders hurt because it is so heavy!
The young man signaled me that it is time to leave and said:
- At the end of her life, she lost her place with the Creator. This is what those who separate themselves from the obedience of the Church, those who don't listen to their spiritual father and believe they are more enlightened have to endure! So she lost the place that was prepared for her for living a christian life, for considering that the separation of the church because of the calendar was the fault of those who disobbeyed and kept the old calendar. Did you see how the devil had patience and waited for her until the last moment? Then he have her the thought that she had dissobbeyed her mother to keep the old calendar? Do you see how a man can become lost even in the last moment of his life? There are so many who have been cheated this way! There are so many who say that there is nothing wrong with the old calendar, because it's still an orthodox church. It is orthodox, but it's a church fallen from the Holy Gift and obedience. If they returned to obedience, it would be something different. Because of this their prayers are not listened, although they keep a christian life and respect the canons.

[ma2000]

Even if you are right, and the teaching of the new calendar is wrong, you still have to obey the church. Those who originated the false teachings will be punished, not you. Outside the church, you will loose the Holy Gift.

If you truly want to follow the old calendar, then join the Serbian or the Russian Orthodox Church. This way, you will follow the old calendar and you will be in the Orthodox Church. Most Russians are anti-ecumenicists and you won't have to worry about that.

[ma2000]

The Old Calendar might be right, but the fact that they LEFT the Church makes them wrong.
Throughout its' history, Orthodox Church claimed that it was guided by the Holy Spirit. Even if they take a wrong decission at one time, the Holy Spirit will prove the wrong things. But if you LEAVE the church, then you have NO Holy Spirit. That is what makes them heretical.

The Old Calendarists from Romania LEFT the Church. We are in communion with the monasteries of Mount Athos (a month ago I attended the Divine Liturgy held at my Romanian Orthodox church by Staretz Ephraim of Vatopedion) and all the other Orthodox that keep the old calendar. I am talking about the churches that SEPARATED themselves from The Orthodox Church because of the new calendar.
The Orthodox Church of Basserabia is under the Romanian Orthodox church and they keep the Old Calendar!

[ma2000]

I don't know when is the exact moment when you actually leave your church.
Maybe when saying the prayer like the schismatics.

There is also the thing that the lady refused another spiritual father, but dissobeyed hers. Maybe things would have been different if she had confessed to schismatic priest. I don't know.

But I do believe Fr Argatu's story.

Like I said, there is the option of joining an Orthodox church who respects the old calendar. Like the Russian Orthodox Church or the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Btw, the monks on Holy Mount Athos are not in communion with the schismatics from Romania that keep the old calendar, but with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

[Ioan cel Nou]

You actually believe that your wisdom is such that you dare to cast aspersions on the honesty of a father considered one of the greatest confessors of Romania in recent times and one that is, to boot, incorrupt through the grace of God? What hubris for one so young!

Have you not even stopped to consider that it was her adamant refusal to follow the advice of her confessor - her disobedience - that put her out of the Church? The point is that obedience, as Fr. Cleopa said, is important in itself and it is precisely through disobedience that the Old Calendarists have abandoned the Church and gone into schism. To be honest you are sounding more and more Protestant with every post you make in this thread. I implore you, for your own sake, look again at what you are doing. You are genuinely endangering yourself.

James

[Ioan cel Nou]

Honestly, come down off your high horse and get real. You aren't even old enough to properly remember communism. You certainly have no idea what life under the communists was like. Yes the MP made mistakes and compromises, yes there were priests and heirarchs that were communist stooges, but this is no longer the case. Those (like the schismatics who left ROCOR, and yourself apparently) who are unwilling to allow for the repentance of the MP, who still condemn it because of failings in the past, are doing nothing more than rehashing the Donatist heresy that so scandalised the Church after the end of the Roman persecutions.

And by the way, is ROCOR as traditional as the True Orthodox churches?
More so - it is not traditional to foment schism and set up rival synods.

James

[ma2000]

Here's the address of Vatopedion Monastery on Mount Athos. I'm sure you can't say they are anti-traditionalists, are ecumenicists or they keep the new calendar.
Write them a letter and ask for their guidance.

I.M.M. BATOPAIDIOU 63086 Karyes, GREECE

[kamikat]

I've thought about joining ROCOR in the past, but since the merger, ROCOR is now the Moscow Patriarchate Abroad. The MP is a communisitc church, which shares the "joys, sorrows, successes and failures" of the communist government.

And by the way, is ROCOR as traditional as the True Orthodox churches?

The MP is not a communistic church. The Russian government is not communist. It's been 20 years since the communist governemt of the USSR fell. Recently, there have been news articles about how Putin is concerned about the lnfluence the Russian church is having over the people. During the communist era, the Church was under prosecution, they did what they had to to survive. Ask any of the little old ladies and they'll tell you that it's different today.

As for ROCOR, they aren't in schism from the rest of the Church, so they are more traditional than any vagante group out there. As for the things that aren't so important, yes, they usually require headcoverings, women on one side of the church, men on the other, they don't permit women to receive during their periods and all kinds of other traditions (with a small t) that you seem to think are signs of an Orthodox church. Keep in mind that traditions of man are not the same as Holy Tradition. The traditions of man may change, but Holy Tradition does not.

[DarkNLovely]

What exactly does ecumenical mean in terms of the Orthodox Church?

[kamikat]

It's used in two different ways. When we talk about an Ecumenical Council, that means a meeting of all the Orthodox Bishops and it's rulings affect the whole Church. The other meaning is the ecumenical movement, such as the World Council of Churches or other interfaith groups or activities. The reason this type of ecumenism is considered a bad thing is because most of these groups insist that everyone recognize all the other participants' beliefs to be equal. Of course, we believe that the Orthodox Church is the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, so we don't believe that other faiths are true. Many times, people mistake events for being ecumenical, when they really aren't. For example, last year, the Pope visited the Patriarch of Constantinople. Many people assumed that the Patriarch and the Pope con-celebrated the Divine Liturgy. I recorded the the Divine Liturgy and watched it. The Pope did not celebrate the Liturgy, did not receive communion, acted like a visitor.

[MichaelArchangelos]

Well, according to the laws of the Roman Catholic "church" (which did not change with Vatican II), the Pope wasn't even supposed to be in an Orthodox Church. Attending a non-Catholic service is forbidden in their "church".

[jckstraw72]

Michael have you read the article we keep posting?!?! http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/anti-patristic-stance-old-calendarist-zealots.aspx

and you mentioned RTOC, ROAC, and RCiE .... why are there so many? why cant they get together if they're so true?

[Oblio]

Schisms for 200 kopecks Alexios ...

And the answer is ....


I have decided that ...because I do not approve...


What is the Protestant attitude ?

Correct Oblioski ! You're now in the lead

[Oblio]

Go read 'The way of the Ascetics' and see what the Holy Fathers and Saints have to say about self will, determination, and disobediance.

[kamikat]

Well, according to the laws of the Roman Catholic "church" (which did not change with Vatican II), the Pope wasn't even supposed to be in an Orthodox Church. Attending a non-Catholic service is forbidden in their "church".

Big deal, that's on him, no one else.

[kamikat]

FWIW, though you don't seem as though you're interested in hearing the Truth from us, all the canonical Churches firmly adhere to the Nicene Creed and the Seven Ecumenical Councils.

[prodromos]

Read about Fr Porphyrios, Elder Ephreim and Elder Haralambos and the difficult and often nonsensical things they wer required to do as monks under the obedience of their spiritual elders. Yet they never questioned or complained, they simply obeyed. The Church is being tested and it is a test of obedience.

Study the history of the church and see how many times people left the church because Patriarchs were heretics. You will find very little reference of such a thing because they didn't leave the church. Eventually the heretical bishop was removed instead. Your priest, even EP Bartholomew, are just small blips in the life of the Church and they will be required to give a full account before God of what they have and have not done. Do not worry yourself about them, you have your own soul to worry about.

[Orthosdoxa]

This is all making me very, very sad.

[Sothron]

This is all making me very, very sad.

Same here. It also bothers me that inquirers are reading this and may be led astray by someone who says they are technically still Orthodox only due to circumstance and stating a number of things that are not Orthodox doctrine while having an Orthodox icon. I earnestly pray Michael will come to his senses and turn his back to these schismatics. :crosseo:

[DarkNLovely]

Im..a...bit..confused. That's o.k. I'll just go read! Thank you!

[Macarius]

The confusion may be cleared up by a brief history lesson.

Michael is part of (or seeking to become part of, I'm not sure) a hyper-traditional group of churches which call themselves the "true Orthodox." They are a small schismatic group, not in communion with the 5 ecumenically recognized patriarchs - Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Moscow. They list a variety of reasons for this schism, but two things seem to come up a lot:

1) "Ecumenism" - this term is used a lot of different ways, and that's part of the confusion. The form of ecumenism that both sides consider wrong is the one that seeks a "lowest common denominator" between churches and then claims that they are one or that only that denominator is really doctrine. This is common among some of the evangelical churches - it is, in fact, the only unifying doctrine of the non-denominational churches (along with adament sola-scriptura and sola-fide, though theoretically one could disagree with those and be non-denominational; one could NOT disagree with "mere christianity" ecumenism and be non denominational). Because this allows for so much doctrinal wiggle room, it is called the "pan-Heresy" - it can encompas any number of "heresies" underneath it (technically something isn't a heresy unless an Orthodox Christian commits it and is anathematized - hence the quotes).

Because the Orthodox churches (in particular the Patriarch of Constantinople) are involved in things like the "World Council of Churches" and in dialogues with the Pope in Rome they are accused by the "true orthodox" as being in this same camp. We, however, see a big difference between whitewashing differences in an attempt to appear unified (ecumenism), and an honest dialogue in an attempt to bring the heterodox back to the Truth. If we didn't have that dialogue, we would be ignoring the Great Commission. If we fall into ecumenism in it's white-washing form, we ignore the commission of St. Jude to "contend earnestly for the faith once traditioned to all the saints."

Within this dialogue there is the possibility that compromises over smaller traditions can be made - things we don't consider central doctrines (things that can be changed). This is another place that disagreements arise, which leads us to the second hot-button issue.

2) Old Calander vs New Calander: This issue gives these groups the title "Old Calanderists" - perhaps a more common title (at least within the states). I'm not certain when the change took place, but at some point, in an effort to make our calander match up with actual astrological phenomena (to make it an accurate calander), the mainline Orthodox Church - the 5 Patriarchates - decided to start using the Gergorian rather than Julian calander. The Julian calander, while the traditional one of the East, didn't account for the leap year and so was continually off base. The Gregorian calander was created by the West long after the schism, so the East didn't have it, but it did accurately reflect astrology by accounting for a leap year every 4 years to automatically correct itself.

The accusation is that by using the Western calander from a post-schism West, we are committing ecumenism in its white washing form. So the Old Calanderists decry the practice and call us heretics for it. Note: there ARE communities who are in communion with the 5 patriarchs whoe use the Old Calander - the Julian calander. The Orthodox Church does not forbid its use, we just also allow a church / parish / monastery to use the Gregorian calander if they would like to, and encourage it. It is the schismatics who have dogmatized this issue.

And that's really why I disagree with them - they dogmatize legalistic issues and are hyper legalists, refusing to allow that customs and "little t" traditions change. They condemn us for allowing women (if they are contentious about it) to not wear head coverings, for allowing men and women to stand on the same side of the church, for allowing women to wear pants, for giving women communion while on their periods, for using an astrologically correct calander, and for talking to non-Orthodox.

Hope that helps!
Macarius

[jckstraw72]

i dont think the adoption of the New Calendar had anything at all to do with astrological correctness, but indeed, with Ecumenism. and various things that have been done and said by various Orthodox priests and bishops are indeed troubling -- going beyond simply sharing the faith, but this alas, does not justify a schism.

for instance, an Antiochian priest i know said he agrees with the sentiments of Esphigmenou (while not their schisming) and that he was quite upset at the visit of the Pope to Constantinople -- sitting on the Patriarch's throne and homilizing at an Orthodox service and what not -- he said were the Pope to ever come to his parish he would NEVER let him sit in the throne. the Pope was treated as if he were a true bishop, when in reality he's not even a laymen of our Church.

[Macarius]

i dont think the adoption of the New Calendar had anything at all to do with astrological correctness, but indeed, with Ecumenism. and various things that have been done and said by various Orthodox priests and bishops are indeed troubling -- going beyond simply sharing the faith, but this alas, does not justify a schism.

for instance, an Antiochian priest i know said he agrees with the sentiments of Esphigmenou (while not their schisming) and that he was quite upset at the visit of the Pope to Constantinople -- sitting on the Patriarch's throne and homilizing at an Orthodox service and what not -- he said were the Pope to ever come to his parish he would NEVER let him sit in the throne. the Pope was treated as if he were a true bishop, when in reality he's not even a laymen of our Church.
Certainly not without an ecumenical council to decide the issue... I am no bishop that I should judge these matters in my own prideful self.

[Vasileios]

Michael: Are you more Orthodox and more zealous than the elder Paisios and the elder Porphyrios?

Please, think about this question honestly and what it means.

Are you *really* saying that the elder Porphyrios was anathematized for following the new Calendar?

Lord have mercy...

And Lord have mercy on the poor souls of the esphigmenou monastery for their scandalizing the Church in such a despicable way.

You don't know the 10% of the real story behind the Esphigmenou monastery Michael. But seeing your attitude, learning the sad facts is the least of your problems right now...

You are willing to go to a Church that does not share the same cup with THE SAINTS. Have you even stopped to think what this means for your soul?

[MishaM]

This whole thread frightens me because I am plagued by these thoughts of "correctness" due to the amount of time I have spent in the "head" of the TOC movement. I still have thoughts that "World Orthodoxy" is not Orthodoxy, that it is not "good enough. "

It has taken me a long time to get to the point I am at now and I am no closer to an Orthodox way of life then I was when I was focusing on the letter of the Law and not on the Heart of the Church.

I fear that I will fall in to the pit of self-righteousness again, but I have found a Serbian parish and a Serbian priest who is willing ot walk with me through all of this. I thank God for him every day because without him I would be almost surely in a worse mess then when I started.

Michal I am praying for you. I wish there was more that I could do because I see so much of myself in you. I can only hope and pray that you will not have to go through half of the things I have and that you will be shown y the Grace of God the path of the Saints.

In Christ,
Juvenaly

[DarkNLovely]

Macarius- Thanks for that! With all do respect I think I see why Protestanism exists. It's far easier to say "You have your way, I have mine, so God Bless you and leave me alone!", than it is to be in churches with so many schisms and this idea that not being "right" condems another. I'm just now familiarizing myself with the EOC, but I can tell you for certainty that this is why soooo many people leave the RCC and many more are not interested. I can say so many good things about my non-denom Sola Scripturista background and one of them is that I was NEVER taught to write-off my fellow Christians just because they did not belive exactly how I belive. Our Savior gave us no such example. Thanks Macarius!

[nutroll]

To be fair, we don't have lots of schisms. There are those on the periphery that feel the need to break away from the church over various issues, but the church does not split. The Orthodox Church continues on, still united. There are far less of these splinter groups than there are Protestant denominations and non-denominational groups. We are not taught to condemn others, but we also recognize that the theology and the practice of the church have value, and that changing them is not to be taken lightly. However, what most of us are saying is that one ought not to take the unity of the church lightly. The church would have to be in grave error to necessitate a schism. There have been errors that have arisen over the history of the church, and they have been overcome and corrected.

[DarkNLovely]

nutroll!
I didn't mean to apply anything negetive to EOC. Just making genearl observations. I didn't want to target them in the post but I was mainly refering to RCC! Sorry if my RCC friends are offened! Didn't mean to do it! I love everybody!

[Orthosdoxa]

BTW, we're not condemning Michael or writing him off. We love him and are extremely concerned for him. It is no small thing to have found the Truth of Orthodoxy, then spit on it and join some schismatic group. There are Saints and Church Fathers who have said this is among the worst of sins. Don't misinterpret our nagging Michael as anything other than love and concern.

[JustinHesychast]

I'm down as is, and this is making me fall all the worse. It's so confusing. Something as trivial as a calendar? What the heck??

I try to stop reading this thread, but can't.

[kamikat]

Closed
This topic violates the TAW FSR #4
4.Active Promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of canonical Orthodox Churches are prohibited.

[kamikat]

now that we have a debate section, we can open this up

[EmperorConstantine]

I'm down as is, and this is making me fall all the worse. It's so confusing. Something as trivial as a calendar? What the heck??

I try to stop reading this thread, but can't.
The calendar is a bit of an issue. Shall we celebrate the Nativity on December 25, or January 7? January 7 would merit great deals, but December 25 is the day you get off from work.

Politics. That's what it really is. The priest I know in Miami would use both calendars. He'd say "next week we will be celebrating such-and-such feast. And if you miss that, come back in two weeks when we will be celebrating such-and-such feast Old Calendar!"^_^


Really, this is one of many differences between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. Protestants argue about the saving power of baptism. We argue about calendars. The thing is, when Protestants change it is a change in theology which becomes a change is worship and even a change in one's way of life. Orthodox when there is change it really is "did this happen in 19th century Russia or 7th century Constantinople?" because how can we say that we are THE Church if we change something?

[nutroll]

The calendar is a bit of an issue. Shall we celebrate the Nativity on December 25, or January 7? January 7 would merit great deals, but December 25 is the day you get off from work.

Politics. That's what it really is. The priest I know in Miami would use both calendars. He'd say "next week we will be celebrating such-and-such feast. And if you miss that, come back in two weeks when we will be celebrating such-and-such feast Old Calendar!"^_^


Of course both old calendar and new calendar celebrate Nativity on the 25 of December, it's just that for those on the Old Calendar December 25th doesn't come around until 13 days later...

As for celebrating twice, I don't know that that would be appropriate. We believe in one God, we commemorate moments in our Salvation history that occurred once, I don't think we should commemorate those events twice in a year.

[EmperorConstantine]

Of course both old calendar and new calendar celebrate Nativity on the 25 of December, it's just that for those on the Old Calendar December 25th doesn't come around until 13 days later...
You know what I mean. Old Calendar Nativity comes on civil calendar's January 7th.

It was an interesting setup down there.

[Sothron]

I selfishly wish we had the same date as Easter when we celebrate Pascha because I could use the day off from work to actually make the 2 hour or more drive to the nearest OCA church. :blush: