Something we can all agree on...

[EmperorConstantine]

Something we (Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox) can all agree on. Or at least a few things.

We have the Eucharist.
We have priests.
We have bishops.
We have Apostolic Succession.
We have Saints and venerate them.
The Great Schism was a tragedy.
Sacraments.
Chant is good.

and we all are here in the Apostolic Churches sub forum.

Now in the words of the notorious Rodney King "Can we all get along?"

Just tone down the polemic levels a little bit.:)

[Don5925]

You say some pretty smart things, especially for a kid! Maybe your elders might hear you and learn.

:thumbsup:

[Macarius]

We also, excepting some of the more liberal episcopalians, have the worship of the incarnate Christ, the Son of the Father, glorified with the Holy Spirit: one God, three persons, perfect Trinity, who for our salvation died and (again excepting some of the liberal episcopalians) rose again on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures.

That's some great common ground!

[Wigglesworth]

What are polemics?

[EmperorConstantine]

What are polemics?
From dictionary.com:
1.the art or practice of disputation or controversy: a master of polemics. 2.the branch of theology dealing with the history or conduct of ecclesiastical disputation and controversy.
Basically, the way of arguing for the sake of arguing. If one is polemical, they are being argumentative; or just arguing their point of view.

Unless of course someone finds a better definition.

[Lotar]

I know that all these things are Orthodoxy; them I am not so sure about.

[Aymn27]

I know that all these things are Orthodoxy; them I am not so sure about.
Well, I tend to be more evangelical - so not big into venterating saints - but I don't find offense if you all do...the rest I say Amen to!

[WarriorAngel]

Something we (Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox) can all agree on. Or at least a few things.

We have the Eucharist.
We have priests.
We have bishops.
We have Apostolic Succession.
We have Saints and venerate them.
The Great Schism was a tragedy.
Sacraments.
Chant is good.

and we all are here in the Apostolic Churches sub forum.

Now in the words of the notorious Rodney King "Can we all get along?"


:hug:

What I love about this little space...is not having to hear offenses presented against the Eucharist, Our Lady and Tradition. :clap:

CAN I get AN AMEN to that??


Well, I tend to be more evangelical - so not big into venterating saints - but I don't find offense if you all do...the rest I say Amen to!

Its nice to see you fellowshipping Aymn. :hug:
The rules of the former congregational rules still apply.

But I wanted to say hello!!

Who knows, maybe you will convert to the EO and become a priest.

[Secundulus]

We have everything in common except the one thing that Jesus prayed for before the crucifixion - UNITY.

[a_ntv]

We have the Eucharist.
We have priests.
We have bishops.
We have Apostolic Succession.
We have Saints and venerate them.
The Great Schism was a tragedy.
Sacraments.
Chant is good.

We all also use the Sign of the Cross, that is very important in our today life.


And we have Mary...
And we praise the way of live of the monks..
And we all use the Liturgy of the Hours...

And we use vestments during the Mass...

[EmperorConstantine]

We all also use the Sign of the Cross, that is very important in our today life.


And we have Mary...
And we praise the way of live of the monks..
And we all use the Liturgy of the Hours...

And we use vestments during the Mass...
That is also true, although Orthodox call it the Divine Liturgy (but I understand what you're saying).

Most of the stuff I thought up off the top of my head.

[WarriorAngel]

We have Tradition too. ;)

[WarriorAngel]

We also pray for the dead. Almost forgot that one. :)

[Mary of Bethany]

:hug:

What I love about this little space...is not having to hear offenses presented against the Eucharist, Our Lady and Tradition. :clap:

CAN I get AN AMEN to that??



AMEN!!!

[WarriorAngel]

[[[[[HUGS]]]]]

[Epiphanygirl]

Something we (Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox) can all agree on. Or at least a few things.

We have the Eucharist.
We have priests.
We have bishops.
We have Apostolic Succession.
We have Saints and venerate them.
The Great Schism was a tragedy.
Sacraments.
Chant is good.

and we all are here in the Apostolic Churches sub forum.

Now in the words of the notorious Rodney King "Can we all get along?"

Just tone down the polemic levels a little bit.:)Wise indeed, let us explore our common ground and celebrate it......let us come to know our differences in respect, this in GEneral Theology.........let us set the bar far non Apostolic churches to witness what is holy.

[Albion]

Well, I tend to be more evangelical - so not big into venterating saints - but I don't find offense if you all do...the rest I say Amen to!

I suppose we'd say that we honor them, at least those who are held universally to be saints. We do, after all, name churches after them and have a dozen or so saint's days on the calendar for which there are propers.

[WarriorAngel]

Wise indeed, let us explore our common ground and celebrate it......let us come to know our differences in respect, this in GEneral Theology.........let us set the bar far non Apostolic churches to witness what is holy.
:hug:

[Dorothea]

Fantastic! Love it! :)

[Kas]

something else we can all agree on is that Islam is our common enemy as is the liberal enlightenment ideology that permeates many post christian societies...

Kas

[Sothron]

something else we can all agree on is that Islam is our common enemy as is the liberal enlightenment ideology that permeates many post christian societies...

Kas

I definitely agree with that.

[Kas]

I definitely agree with that.

we need an alliance between the apostolic churches to take our fight to the enemy...no repeat of formwer divisions...but a united front...too free all orthox and catholics from ...nay...alll christians from oppression...

Kas

[WarriorAngel]

If anyone cannot see why the crusades began [in defense]..... :sorry:

[Aymn27]

We also pray for the dead. Almost forgot that one. :)
serious question here - do Orthodox and Roman Catholics have the same theology behind this - I believe Anglican and Orthodox are closer on this....perhaps I've been misguided..

[WarriorAngel]

serious question here - do Orthodox and Roman Catholics have the same theology behind this - I believe Anglican and Orthodox are closer on this....perhaps I've been misguided..

The only difference is the CC gave this a name.
Purification ie the name purgatory.

The Church has not defined it as a state or an action, but just gave it a name for its doctrine.

However; Saints have seen souls from purgatory and have spoke to them or to Mary about the state of the soul.

Souls need prayers so their suffering is less. They also need sacrifice such as the Mass [liturgy] so they can be remitted of their sins and go into the presense of God.

I have some sites to read if you like.
Which is not a definition from the Church but that which the Saints experienced.

link (http://www.opusangelorum.org/Formation/Purgatory.html)
link 2 (http://www.rc.net/marquette/carmelite/purgatory.htm)

Aside from the experiences of the Saints, we have no way of knowing much more on this.

[Mary of Bethany]

Our prayers for the departed are with the understanding that our salvation is determined by our life here on earth, and we cannot change God's judgement.

But we also believe that our prayers are "outside of time" and may have an affect on that person's life on earth, that seems to us to have been "in the past".

Mary

[Aymn27]

Our prayers for the departed are with the understanding that our salvation is determined by our life here on earth, and we cannot change God's judgement.

But we also believe that our prayers are "outside of time" and may have an affect on that person's life on earth, that seems to us to have been "in the past".

Mary
but it is not to lessen their time in purgatory or to lessen the suffering is it? Would you agree that divine liturgy must be offered to expedite the departed soul into heaven as WA stated in the previous post?

[Aymn27]

If anyone cannot see why the crusades began [in defense]..... :sorry:
I'm more scared of liberals than I am of Islamists ;) j/k

[Mary of Bethany]

but it is not to lessen their time in purgatory or to lessen the suffering is it? Would you agree that divine liturgy must be offered to expedite the departed soul into heaven as WA stated in the previous post?

None of the above. :)

Mary

[PaladinGirl]

something else we can all agree on is that Islam is our common enemy as is the liberal enlightenment ideology that permeates many post christian societies...

Kas
You're kidding me right? Liberal enlightenment ideology is a common enemy? You do realize that there are many liberal Apostolic Christians around right?

[Aymn27]

You're kidding me right? Liberal enlightenment ideology is a common enemy? You do realize that there are many liberal Apostolic Christians around right?
yes...and we've gathered our torchs and pitchforks^_^

[WarriorAngel]

we need an alliance between the apostolic churches to take our fight to the enemy...no repeat of formwer divisions...but a united front...too free all orthox and catholics from ...nay...alll christians from oppression...

Kas

Oops, I missed this. :wave:

Unity!!! :crossrc:

[Kas]

You're kidding me right? Liberal enlightenment ideology is a common enemy? You do realize that there are many liberal Apostolic Christians around right?


I'm aware that Liberal ideology has infiltrated and replaced apostolic tradition mutated within the church and appears as Christianity. I am aware, that Christians have lost our radicalism due to liberal ideology, I am aware that, we have been quitened and pacified by it...

...yes...I am aware of it...the question is are you?

Kas

[zhilan]

I'm aware that Liberal ideology has infiltrated and replaced apostolic tradition mutated within the church and appears as Christianity. I am aware, that Christians have lost our radicalism due to liberal ideology, I am aware that, we have been quitened and pacified by it...

...yes...I am aware of it...the question is are you?

Kas
I think we should focus on Christ and repenting of our own sins before we go looking for people to burn at the stake....

[Kas]

I think we should focus on Christ and repenting of our own sins before we go looking for people to burn at the stake....

I agree but for me repentence is more than just words....so lent us repent of our apathy, let us repent, of our inactivity in not helping the persecuted brethren, let us repent of our cowerdice before Islam and Liberal enlightened prejudices, let us repent of no0t deffending the honour of Christ, let us repent of division that has allowed these things to gain ground while we have fought one another...

...so, now we've said the repentence how shall we live it...?

Kas...

...I don't know whether you were being serious or joking...iether way its a sad liberal prejudice of the medieval period and of those Christians that don't bow to liberal enlightened humanist dogmas would want to burn people at the stake...lol...kas pitties liberal prejudice as ignorant and reactionary in the face of the radicalism of Christianity!

[zhilan]

I agree but for me repentence is more than just words....so lent us repent of our apathy, let us repent, of our inactivity in not helping the persecuted brethren, let us repent of our cowerdice before Islam and Liberal enlightened prejudices, let us repent of no0t deffending the honour of Christ, let us repent of division that has allowed these things to gain ground while we have fought one another...

...so, now we've said the repentence how shall we live it...?

Kas...

...I don't know whether you were being serious or joking...iether way its a sad liberal prejudice of the medieval period and of those Christians that don't bow to liberal enlightened humanist dogmas would want to burn people at the stake...lol...kas pitties liberal prejudice as ignorant and reactionary in the face of the radicalism of Christianity!

A wonderful Coptic priest from Egypt told me, "persecution is a blessing."


At first I was very surprised when he said that. But when you look at the faithful of those Orthodox who have for centuries been under persecution vs. the corruption of Christians in places where they have been in power, I can see his wisdom and humility.

Perhaps this is why, among all the many Christians from all different backgrounds I have met, I have been most touched by the Copts.

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Infant baptism. Baptismal regeneration. Ritual prayer. Icons.

[Albion]

You're kidding me right? Liberal enlightenment ideology is a common enemy? You do realize that there are many liberal Apostolic Christians around right?

No kidding. Liberalism undermines both our religious and social foundations. That doesn't mean that some of them don't love Jesus or think what they are doing is right.

[nestoj]

Something we (Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox) can all agree on. Or at least a few things.

We have the Eucharist.
We have priests.
We have bishops.
We have Apostolic Succession.
We have Saints and venerate them.
The Great Schism was a tragedy.
Sacraments.
Chant is good.

and we all are here in the Apostolic Churches sub forum.

Now in the words of the notorious Rodney King "Can we all get along?"

Just tone down the polemic levels a little bit.:)
We are all living in the world that is beginning to think – “I have overgrown Christ. He is a bump in my road to cozy and easy life. He always forbids things that I like. I don’t need Him.” – and most of us disagrees with that….

Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

nestoj
God helps

Edit: or maybe we don't all agree on this and I'm jumping conclusions?

[Kas]

No kidding. Liberalism undermines both our religious and social foundations. That doesn't mean that some of them don't love Jesus or think what they are doing is right.


I agree...misguided but well intentioned...

Kas

[EmperorConstantine]

Hey now, I made this thread so that there would be at least one on the first page that did not spawn an argument.

If I wanted that, I would have posted it in Nicene Theology.:P

Play nice.:)

[WarriorAngel]

Back to our regularly scheduled 'what we can agree on' :thumbsup: :D

[Aymn27]

I agree...misguided but well intentioned...

Kas
I concur -- I suppose that means that we are correct!

[Don5925]

I think we can agree that XA and WA make for spirited debate we can all learn from.

[WarriorAngel]

I think we can agree that XA and WA make for spirited debate we can all learn from.

One Church, two POV...
Discussions see two sides...to one story. Isnt that always the way it goes. ;)


What can we agree on...?

I want to go back and discuss praying for the dead.
I do not have any particular prayer, but we say 'for the repose of ___________, may the perpetual Light shine upon them'
Or something to that effect. :)

[Mary of Bethany]

WA,

Here's a typical Orthodox prayer for the dead:

A PRAYER FOR THE DEAD

Into thy hands, O Lord, I commend the souls of thy servants NN., and beseech thee to grant them rest in the place of thy rest, where all thy blessed Saints repose, and where the light of thy countenance shineth forever. And I beseech thee also to grant that our present lives may be godly, sober, and blameless, that, we too may be made worthy to enter into thy heavenly Kingdom with those we love but see no longer: for thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of thy departed servants, O Christ our God, and unto thee we ascribe glory: to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit; now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

[WarriorAngel]

Nice prayer. :)

I am sure we have one, but I dont know where to look.
Plus this doozy of a headache.

[Kas]

A wonderful Coptic priest from Egypt told me, "persecution is a blessing."


At first I was very surprised when he said that. But when you look at the faithful of those Orthodox who have for centuries been under persecution vs. the corruption of Christians in places where they have been in power, I can see his wisdom and humility.

Perhaps this is why, among all the many Christians from all different backgrounds I have met, I have been most touched by the Copts.

I too am touched by the plight of the copts and their faith...a thousand years of persecution have not just left a holy church...it has left a dying church...the copts were once a majority in egypt and a thousand copts a year give up...but why shopuld they be abandoned in their suffering...so we can feel 'soothed' by spiritual platitudes...however...accurate...we are obliged by love to come to their assistance and liberate them from the persecution they suffer...we should have done so centuries ago...but sin has seperated us...and made our hearts cold to one another...the church is repenting of that slowly...but too slow I fear to help our brethren...as we should...and its not just in egypt..its all over...serbia, sudan, northern nigeria, indonesia, iraq, iran, ...there is a war being waged against the church...we need to accept that fact and wake up to it...we need to fight back...we need to unite...

love demands actions...not words...not platitudes...not excuses and not apathy!

Kas

[Rowan]

So true.

Isn't that why the Corinthians were needed the a lot of correction? That they were in a young faith and too comfortable in comparison to the other persecuted Christians in other regions?

[Kas]

So true.

Isn't that why the Corinthians were needed the a lot of correction? That they were in a young faith and too comfortable in comparison to the other persecuted Christians in other regions?

MUCH LIKE THE LIBERALISED, PACIFIED, AND APATHETIC WESTERN CHURCHES HAVE BECOME...

...FOR SERBIA, FOR NIGERIA, FOR PALASTINE, FOR CYPRUS, FOR IRAQ, FOR THE SUDAN, FOR INDONESIA, EGYPT, FOR PAKISTAN, ...CHRISTIANS THROW OF THE SHACKLES OF LIBERALISM... DON'T BE PACIFIED... CONFRONT ISLAM AND THE LIBERAL ENLIGHTENMENT... IN MIND IN HEART IN SOUL AND AND IN STREGNTH...

KAS

[Rowan]

I can see what you mean.

((Sorry for the disaster that I tried to pass off as a sentence...it was late last night...))

[Colabomb]

We also, excepting some of the more liberal episcopalians, have the worship of the incarnate Christ, the Son of the Father, glorified with the Holy Spirit: one God, three persons, perfect Trinity, who for our salvation died and (again excepting some of the liberal episcopalians) rose again on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures.

That's some great common ground!

That is THE common Ground. The Gospel of our Lord and Savior.

[WarriorAngel]

I too am touched by the plight of the copts and their faith...a thousand years of persecution have not just left a holy church...it has left a dying church...the copts were once a majority in egypt and a thousand copts a year give up...but why shopuld they be abandoned in their suffering...so we can feel 'soothed' by spiritual platitudes...however...accurate...we are obliged by love to come to their assistance and liberate them from the persecution they suffer...we should have done so centuries ago...but sin has seperated us...and made our hearts cold to one another...the church is repenting of that slowly...but too slow I fear to help our brethren...as we should...and its not just in egypt..its all over...serbia, sudan, northern nigeria, indonesia, iraq, iran, ...there is a war being waged against the church...we need to accept that fact and wake up to it...we need to fight back...we need to unite...

love demands actions...not words...not platitudes...not excuses and not apathy!

Kas

I agree, we need to unite.

United we stand, divided we fall. :crossrc:


Although, and I am going to ask you NOT use caps...
When you speak western Church, you mean American??

Was it not Rome [Latin] who saved the Byzantines in the crusades? :crossrc:

What terrible times, and honestly, I feel like saying 'here we go again...' because it seems like history is repeating itself.

[Secundulus]

Was it not Rome [Latin] who saved the Byzantines in the crusades?

The Western Crusaders, under Rome, conquered Constantinople and did much to weaken the East during the Crusades.

At the same time, the East did very little to support the West in their quest to retake the holy land.

There is adequate guilt on both sides.

Because we were divided then, we were overcome.

This is an important lesson that we should remember in the present.

[Kas]

The Western Crusaders, under Rome, conquered Constantinople and did much to weaken the East during the Crusades.

At the same time, the East did very little to support the West in their quest to retake the holy land.

There is adequate guilt on both sides.

Because we were divided then, we were overcome.

This is an important lesson that we should remember in the present.

I could not agree more, Rome, started right, but ended very badly, and the byzantines were distrustful...quite understandably, Rome should help the east re take constantinople in this present age, as well as all asia minor... that would be truly penatent act...

I pray that church finds its unity against a reurging Islam.. the beast was wounded, but not killed... lets finish this stage of the war as the victors...not as survivers on the loosing side which has been the cause of the war thus far...

the church must accpet that there is a utility to force...against Islam


Kas

[WarriorAngel]

The Western Crusaders, under Rome, conquered Constantinople and did much to weaken the East during the Crusades.

At the same time, the East did very little to support the West in their quest to retake the holy land.

There is adequate guilt on both sides.

Because we were divided then, we were overcome.

This is an important lesson that we should remember in the present.

I think unity would be key to the whole of Christianity.
AND we need that.
If not only for our self preservation, but for unity comes strength.

[copticorthodoxy]

We have bell towers in our churches

[Kas]

We have bell towers in our churches

but sadly a thousand Christians a year give up in Egypt...I would rather have them than towers! Still, I salute this small victory, can your bells ring...