Anglican / Episcopal

[eoe]

What is the relationship between the Anglicans and the Episcopals?

[Aymn27]

The Episcopal Church is the American arm of the worldwide Anglican Communion. I you have not heard/read though, they are under great pressure to repent from their ways or be expelled from the union. The entire Communion is in a great struggle now - between liberal and "orthodox" factions - please pray for us...

[eoe]

So according to the Anglican Church - Bishop Spong has valid Apostolic Succession?

[Secundulus]

So according to the Anglican Church - Bishop Spong has valid Apostolic Succession?

Yes he does. He is also an unrepentant heretic. The fact that the Episcopal Church failed to deal with him and several other Bishops like him is one of the reasons they are in so much trouble right now.

A Church which willfully embraces heresy will fail.

[EmperorConstantine]

A Church which willfully embraces heresy will fail.
Couldn't have put it better myself.

Not to forget that a Church willing to dump Tradition (note the big T) is also willing to fail. And they have.

[Albion]

So according to the Anglican Church - Bishop Spong has valid Apostolic Succession?

There is no "the Anglican Church." There are Anglican churches in the way that there are Orthodox churches. The American branch of the largest association of Anglican churches worldwide, the Anglican Communion, is "The Episcopal Church."

As noted, it is in jeopardy of being expelled because of various liberal and unfraternal doings on her part. And then there are about 30 million Anglicans in other churches and federations, also more orthodox than The Episcopal Church.

Bishop Spong IS in Apostolic Succession because he was validly consecrated a bishop in Apostolic Succession and has never been found to be a heretic by any official inquiry conducted by his own church, the Episcopal Church. Given its present mindset, that would never happen.

We might add that most of his "Progressive Christianity" views only were publicized after he became a bishop.

[kamikat]

Is there any truth to the story I heard that the church (in America) changed it's name from Anglican to Episcopalian during the American Revolution?

[Secundulus]

Is there any truth to the story I heard that the church (in America) changed it's name from Anglican to Episcopalian during the American Revolution?

That is true. The head of the Anglican Church was the King of England. Since we were in open rebellion to England we could not at the same time recognize him as our head. The name was changed but the beliefs remained constant (other than having the King as the Head) and Apostolic Succession was maintained.

[Albion]

Is there any truth to the story I heard that the church (in America) changed it's name from Anglican to Episcopalian during the American Revolution?

Yes and No. There was no American juridiction, strictly speaking, while this was a British possession. When the American church was established after the war, the name "Episcopal" was chosen because of not wanting to be linked in the public mind with things English-- "Anglo" as we'd say today. The Scottish church and several others have done the same. No one, however, denies that we are Anglicans.

[eoe]

So Anglicans are still in Communion with Spong?

[Aymn27]

So Anglicans are still in Communion with Spong?
LOL...some Anglicans are...TEC is a hotbed of liberalism - they are being dealt with by the remainder of the communion...the problem, though, is that Canturbury has become almost as bad (first-world syndrome)..we shall see the outcome within the next year or two..

[eoe]

some Anglicans are.
Some? It is not one communion? Where does the schism lie? Which Bishops have seperated themselves from the atheist?

If it is in fact true that there is in reality only one communion then ALL Anglicans are in communion with the atheist. Could you please elaborate on where the schism is?

[Albion]

So Anglicans are still in Communion with Spong?

"in communion with?"

Bishop Spong is not an active bishop anymore, having retired. But he is still a member of The Episcopal Church in the USA. Other Anglicans not in communion with that church are not connected to Bishop Spong and have, in fact, been active in denouncing his treachings.

[eoe]

Other Anglicans not in communion with that church
Where are the lines drawn? I am just attempting to figure out where Spong fits. He is still a member - he still participates in the sacraments?

Perhaps you guys have a different understanding of Communion than we do. You see, in the EOC there is one cup. Is it not the same in the AC?

[Albion]

Some? It is not one communion?

No. I believe this has been addressed before. About 70 million of the world's Anglicans are members of the Anglican Communion, but many of them belong to provinces which lately have broken communion with "The Episcopal Church in the USA," the American member province. About 30 million other Anglicans are affiliated with churches not part of the Anglican Communion and overehelmingly are opposed to the theology of Bishop Spong.

Which Bishops have seperated themselves from the atheist?

It would be easier to list provinces than individual bishops. Most of the Anglican churches of the Anglican Communion which are in the Southern Hemisphere--Aftica, Latin America, SE Asia have declared themselves out of communion with ECUSA because of one or several of its unorthodox policies. And that's referring to those who are IN the Anglican Communion. The 30% or so of Anglicans not members of the Anglican Communion are not in communion with ECUSA anyway, as said in my last post.

If it is in fact true that there is in reality only one communion then ALL Anglicans are in communion with the atheist. Could you please elaborate on where the schism is?

Anglicans are far from all being in one communion.

Even many who are members of the largest of them--"the Anglican Communion" --have broken communion with the American province while retaining membership in the association themselves until it is decided if ECUSA will be permitted to retain its own membership.

[Albion]

Where are the lines drawn? I am just attempting to figure out where Spong fits. He is still a member - he still participates in the sacraments?

Perhaps you guys have a different understanding of Communion than we do. You see, in the EOC there is one cup. Is it not the same in the AC?

Bishop Spong belongs to one church, ECUSA. The national churches of some other countries have broken communion with ECUSA, and therefore with Bishop Spong. Others are debating it. Some are very unlikely to do so, believing that the unorthodoxy of one man wouldn't warrant it.

[eoe]

So it is only the ECUSA that is in communion with him? Rather, they allow him to remain? (same thing..)

Just looked at the official ECUSA website and it states they are a member of the worldwide Anglican communion. What is that?

[Albion]

Just looked at the official ECUSA website and it states they are a member of the worldwide Anglican communion. What is that?

A loose association of 38 (I think) national churches which represent about 70% of the world's Anglicans. Some of them are not in communion with each other, but all are in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, its "chairman."

[RobNJ]

Although the Diocese of Newark does still maintain a "shrine" to Spong & his ideas.
http://www.dioceseofnewark.org/jsspong/

[Fish and Bread]

A loose association of 38 (I think) national churches which represent about 70% of the world's Anglicans. Some of them are not in communion with each other, but all are in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, its "chairman."

This contention is highly disputed within the Anglican Communion. Traditionally all of it's members have been in communion with each other. It has only been in recent years that some have unilaterally declared themselves out of communion with the US Episcopal Church (And possibly the Anglican Church of Canada) without declaring themselves out of communion with the other members of the communion. Many have argued that they can not actually do that without leaving the Anglican Communion. A lot of this has yet to be resolved and is still under discussion. The 2008 Lambeth conference of all the bishops of the Anglican Communion may be an interesting in terms of who shows up and who doesn't and what the wider implications are of that in terms of membership in the AC (The Nigerian Anglicans and others have intimated that they may not attend).

[Albion]

This contention is highly disputed within the Anglican Communion.

What contention?

Traditionally all of it's members have been in communion with each other. It has only been in recent years that some have unilaterally declared themselves out of communion with the US Episcopal Church (And possibly the Anglican Church of Canada) without declaring themselves out of communion with the other members of the communion.

Sure, but I was answering a non-Anglican inquirer who asked about the current state of affairs. He did not even know what the Anglican Communion is, so a lengthy explanation of its history and internal procedures didn't seem to me to be the place to start.

Many have argued that they can not actually do that without leaving the Anglican Communion.

Probably as many as argue that ECUSA cannot defy the Communion's explicit policies and not leave the Communion.

A lot of this has yet to be resolved and is still under discussion.

I did make mention of that.

[Fish and Bread]

What contention?

Your posting may have given the impression that the Anglican Communion is not a true communion where all member churches recognize each other as part of the same body. This has not been the case historically, and nothing has been officially changed, though many churches are testing the boundaries by declaring one church or another "out of communion" with them while trying to maintain communion with the others. Whether or not the nature of the Anglican Communion will/has adjust(ed) to truly allow for that is something that has not really been clarified or finalized. Many people are proposing that it should, with many others opposed. It's in flux.

[Albion]

Your posting may have given the impression that the Anglican Communion is not a true communion where all member churches recognize each other as part of the same body.

Well, I suppose almost anything is possible no matter how carefully one chooses his words. On the other hand, he asked if they believe the same, not whether all members acknowledge the others as members. As we both know, they don't and haven't done so for some time.

[eoe]

but all are in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury, its "chairman."
Alright - so here goes again....

Is Spong in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

[Secundulus]

Alright - so here goes again....

Is Spong in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Yes.

The continuing Anglican Church's are not.

[Secundulus]

Alright - so here goes again....

Is Spong in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Yes.

The Continuing Anglican Churchs are not though.

[Wigglesworth]

Just because John drinks with Rowan, and Al drinks with Rowan, doesn't mean that Al will drink with John. It's that simple. You can go into a pub without sitting at someone else's table. The Anglican Communion is more akin to the pub than the tables within the pub; the national churches are more akin to the tables within the pub. Rowan is the bartender, and he lets just about anybody come into the pub, as long as they have reserved a table. Some folks talk about leaving the pub altogether, though, because the folks at one of the tables have gotten so rowdy that you can't hear yourself think in there anymore.

Peace be with you.

:crossrc:

[erin74]

Spong's over here at the moment.

Would you like him back?

[WarriorAngel]

I admit, I am confused...

Basically the AC broke up amongst itself between following the more protestant flavor, or following the more Traditional flavor.

IS there some sort of chart for this...
Visuals might help.

[Albion]

I admit, I am confused...

Basically the AC broke up amongst itself between following the more protestant flavor, or following the more Traditional flavor.

No. No single "AC" ever existed to break up, and the splits of the past two centuries have their parallels in all the other Apostolic communions. The most significant of them in the Anglican case concern liberal innovations, anyway, not the historic range of belief and practice that could be called more protestant or more catholic.

[Aymn27]

Spong's over here at the moment.

Would you like him back?
no thanks-- wasn't Austrailia an "island" for criminals in the first place?? ;)

btw - I've missed you being around...we've basically been booted from STR b/c we won the subforum vote..now the libs are coming out of the woodwork..I fell like I no longer have a home here on CF..

[Aymn27]

Alright - so here goes again....

Is Spong in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Yes, I understand the confusion - maybe by God's grace the current debacle will unfold into a better eccleisiology for the AC - hopefully a more conservative one!

[eoe]

Just because John drinks with Rowan, and Al drinks with Rowan, doesn't mean that Al will drink with John. It's that simple.

It is not like that where I come from. Communion is a sign of unity in belief. If you are in communion with a heretic then you have just jumped into the boat with them.
I understand what you are saying - I just disagree with it.

So who is NOT in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

[Secundulus]

It is not like that where I come from. Communion is a sign of unity in belief. If you are in communion with a heretic then you have just jumped into the boat with them.
I understand what you are saying - I just disagree with it.

So who is NOT in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

That is why the Continuing Anglican Churches broke with Canterbury in 1978. We think they accept heretical teachings by Bishops. We also broke because they severed tradition with women's ordination.

The Continuing Churches were formed in 1978. This is the statement the Bishops made when they formed. http://www.acahome.org/tac/library/docs/affirm.htm

This is the homepage of the International Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). http://www.acahome.org/tac/index.htm

I think there are two of us on this forum who belong to TAC.

There are also several other Continuing Churches that essentially believe exactly the same thing and are more or less in Communion but that formed separately due to personal disagreements between Bishops. Currently, these divisions seem to be on the mend.

However, our separation with Canterbury is permanent unless they return to the historic faith. I do not think this will happen though because they claim to have been given new revelation from the Holy Spirit.

[Albion]

It is not like that where I come from. Communion is a sign of unity in belief. If you are in communion with a heretic then you have just jumped into the boat with them.
I understand what you are saying - I just disagree with it.

So who is NOT in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Essentially, those Anglican churches called "Continuing Anglican" churches plus several independent Anglican church bodies that preceded the Continuing Churches' departure from communion with the Anglican Communion. These include the Reformed Episcopal Churches of the US and UK, the Church of England in South Africa, and many of the Anglican churches of India.

[Albion]

That is why the Continuing Anglican Churches broke with Canterbury in 1978. We think they accept heretical teachings by Bishops. We also broke because they severed tradition with women's ordination.

The Continuing Churches were formed in 1978. This is the statement the Bishops made when they formed. http://www.acahome.org/tac/library/docs/affirm.htm

This is the homepage of the International Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). http://www.acahome.org/tac/index.htm

I think there are two of us on this forum who belong to TAC.

There are also several other Continuing Churches that essentially believe exactly the same thing and are more or less in Communion but that formed separately due to personal disagreements between Bishops. Currently, these divisions seem to be on the mend.

However, our separation with Canterbury is permanent unless they return to the historic faith. I do not think this will happen though because they claim to have been given new revelation from the Holy Spirit.

We'd better not leave our friend in any doubt when he reads the Affirmation of St. Louis. At that time (1978) the complaint was with the Episcopal Church in the USA and the Anglican Church of Canada, but with hopes that communion with Canterbury would continue. Because things have only gotten worse since then, all the Continuing Anglican churches now consider that article in the Affirmation a dead letter and do not consider themselves in communion with Canterbury.

[RadixLecti]

It is not like that where I come from. Communion is a sign of unity in belief. If you are in communion with a heretic then you have just jumped into the boat with them.
I understand what you are saying - I just disagree with it.

So who is NOT in communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury?
Your belief is shared by at least half of the Anglican Communion, which is working on a solution for this problem. The possible results are:

1. That the Anglican Provinces in North America would return to their Christian roots.

2. The North American Provinces will separate (or be separated from) the larger communion,

3. The entire communion will split.

Number 3 is the most likely result, although I am praying for number 1.

It is very likely that one of these will happen within the next year and a half if not sooner.

[Dorothea]

The Episcopal Church is the American arm of the worldwide Anglican Communion. I you have not heard/read though, they are under great pressure to repent from their ways or be expelled from the union. The entire Communion is in a great struggle now - between liberal and "orthodox" factions - please pray for us...
:crosseo: I'm putting my sons in a private Episcopal Church this year, and the head there said that their church is on the conservative side and that there is a split going on in the Episcopal Churches. That's really sad to hear, and I sure pray you all can come back together again. :crosseo:

[xristos.anesti]

That is why the Continuing Anglican Churches broke with Canterbury in 1978. We think they accept heretical teachings by Bishops. We also broke because they severed tradition with women's ordination.

The Continuing Churches were formed in 1978. This is the statement the Bishops made when they formed. http://www.acahome.org/tac/library/docs/affirm.htm

This is the homepage of the International Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). http://www.acahome.org/tac/index.htm

I think there are two of us on this forum who belong to TAC.

There are also several other Continuing Churches that essentially believe exactly the same thing and are more or less in Communion but that formed separately due to personal disagreements between Bishops. Currently, these divisions seem to be on the mend.

However, our separation with Canterbury is permanent unless they return to the historic faith. I do not think this will happen though because they claim to have been given new revelation from the Holy Spirit.

So, what are the disagreements that you may have with the us - the Eastern Orthodox - that would prevent you from re-communing with us - sorry I just do not know very much about Anglicans as per the current situation.

Many years.

[Secundulus]

So, what are the disagreements that you may have with the us - the Eastern Orthodox - that would prevent you from re-communing with us - sorry I just do not know very much about Anglicans as per the current situation.

Many years.

We don't consider that we have any differences. In our mind, we are in communion with you. I think it is the EO that considers us not in communion. I don't know the reason why.

[erin74]

no thanks-- wasn't Austrailia an "island" for criminals in the first place?? ;)

btw - I've missed you being around...we've basically been booted from STR b/c we won the subforum vote..now the libs are coming out of the woodwork..I fell like I no longer have a home here on CF..
Sorry - I was on holidays and came back to this mess.

I have no idea what is going on in STR - there were too many threads to track. Feel free to pm me.

[Albion]

So, what are the disagreements that you may have with the us - the Eastern Orthodox - that would prevent you from re-communing with us - sorry I just do not know very much about Anglicans as per the current situation.

Many years.

When you say "you," I don't know if it's directed at Secundulus personally (and his church) or at the Continuing Anglican Churches generally. His church and its international communion (TAC) certainly are much closer to EO than are most of the other Continuing Anglican churches.

All of us share a number of similarities with the Orthodox Eastern churches, but many of us also continue in our Reformation heritage. Anglican churches are like the EO in being a collection of (mainly) national churches, not under a single head as with the RC. The range of belief and practice is greater, I think it's safe to say, than with the EO--something to be kept in mind whenever any question about Anglicanism is asked.

[xristos.anesti]

Secundulus and Albion,

many years and God helps

thanks for your answers -

I did not know that TAC is considering us to be in communion. In which way is this effectively excersised - that is, what is(are) the mean(s) that the fact that you consider us to be in communion practically shown?

Thanks.

[Albion]

Secundulus and Albion,

many years and God helps

thanks for your answers -

I did not know that TAC is considering us to be in communion. In which way is this effectively excersised - that is, what is(are) the mean(s) that the fact that you consider us to be in communion practically shown?

Thanks.


Your churches are considered legitimate; the Orders (ordinations) of your clergy are considered valid and regular, as are your Sacraments/Mysteries; and your members are welcome to commmune in our churches.

[erin74]

With regard to Spong there was a response to his latest visit and book on the Sydney Anglican site. It is written by one of the NT lecturers from the Theological College for the diocese.
http://your.sydneyanglicans.net/culture/reading/jesus_for_the_non_religious

[Simon_Templar]

So, what are the disagreements that you may have with the us - the Eastern Orthodox - that would prevent you from re-communing with us - sorry I just do not know very much about Anglicans as per the current situation.

Many years.
The Anglicans and the EO were on the verge of a formal communion agreement, or at least were far along in talks some years ago and then the Anglicans started to go more liberal and speciffically started ordaining women. That pretty much shot down the talks regarding inter communion etc.