Once saved always saved?

[GreenMunchkin]

This is such a fundamental part of our faith, but no-one seems to know for sure. I certainly don't. I think yes, but it'd be good for us to discuss it.

Equally, we all sin every day so, as many believe, do we need to repent in order to stay saved? If we don't repent, do we lose salvation? If so, what did Jesus accomplish on the Cross if not our salvation?

Maybe collectively we'll come up with some never before discovered jewel of information that tells us definitively one way or the other :D

[Lisa0315]

I am OSAS, but I am too sleepy to defend it. :D :yawn:

I am going to bed. :wave:

G'night y'all.

Lisa

[Rep Daddy]

OJSG
Once justified, surely glorified
Romans 8:30

Eternal Life is eternal (what a concept)

[A New Dawn]

OJSG
Once justified, surely glorified
Romans 8:30

Eternal Life is eternal (what a concept)

Hey! I was going to post that! :D

I'll just add a copy of the scripture. :)

Romans 8:30

[Vambram]

I believe in OSAS, but this doctrine is better understood in my opinon as the eternal perseverance of the saints. Once Saved, a person becomes sealed into the family of God, and he is always saved, under the power of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of the Father keeping them Saved. However, as we know, it takes more than just a mere verbal prayer or verbal profession of faith to receive the forgiveness of Sin and Salvation from Sin.

Let me post just a couple of verses that I believe teach the eternal security of believers.

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one."


And I also love what the Apostle Paul says in 2 Timothy 1:6-12
6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

There are indeed many other passages of Scripture that teach about the eternal security of the believer and that one whom is truly born-again cannot lose his salvation. However, I believe that the two passages I posted are extremely clear in supporting the doctrine of OSAS or the eternal perseverance of the saints.

[NewGuy101]

OJSG
Once justified, surely glorified
Romans 8:30

Eternal Life is eternal (what a concept)

:amen:

[waiting for him]

John 3:16..., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (Note this is Jesus). That whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have EVERLASTING life.
Pretty much sums it up. Why would God send his son to die on the cross to save us and then turn around and take it away. Mind you that on that day when Jesus died he knew then what our sins where. He shed his blood so that it would cover our sins. Now if it was for nothing why in the world would God let those people beat his son to death. Jesus was perfect and that is why he done it. Just for us. God says to turn from your sin. Because you are a Christian God doesn't want you to fall over and over when you know what is right. You can not loose your salvation. If that was so then how can anyone proclaim they are saved or for that fact..., there is probably no one in heaven right. I mean not to make anyone madd but it is the truth. I will speak of him because he is my savior. He gave me a new life and without him I would be nothing. Why would someone who has gave us so many promises and turn around and snatch it away??? I hope you will find your answer. I will be praying for you.
Christian Ann

[Angel4Truth]

Salvation is assured :

John 6: 28. Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?''
29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.''

Ephesians 1: 13. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 8
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8 :15. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father.''

[Melethiel]

You cannot lose salvation, but you can reject it.

[dinkime]

You cannot lose salvation, but you can reject it.

:thumbsup: :amen: :clap:

[Albion]

You cannot lose salvation, but you can reject it.

So that would be to deny OSAS, right?

[Zacharias]

If you are of the elect (your name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will be saved. If you are not of the elect (your name wasn't written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will not be saved.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Revelation 17:8 ... whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[GreenMunchkin]

You cannot lose salvation, but you can reject it. :clap: That's exactly how I see it, too :) So what does it mean to reject it? People who were Christian and then turned their back on it and converted to Islam or Buddhism or get involved in occultism, for example... or if you reject it, does that mean you were never one of the elect?

[Zacharias]

:clap: or if you reject it, does that mean you were never one of the elect?

It means that you were never one of the elect. The Bible says the Book of Life was written before the world was made. :)

[NewGuy101]

It means that you were never one of the elect. The Bible says the Book of Life was written before the world was made. :)

AMEN!

[~free~]

I do believe once saved, always saved. God promises eternal salvation to those who believe in Jesus. Eternal salvation isn't from death on, it isn't for 10 years, 20 years...it's for eternity. God doesn't lie, when He says eternal, He means eternal...when God makes a promise, He doesn't break it.

As in Romans 10:9, salvation is from the time that you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:13 For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that we are sealed by God to guarantee our future inheritance. We are saved by God, our salvation is secured by God, we are forever secure...whereas if we are responsible for securing our own salvation, it will be lost.

[Rep Daddy]

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[GreenMunchkin]

It means that you were never one of the elect. The Bible says the Book of Life was written before the world was made. :)So does that in any way negate the idea of free will?

And where does that leave blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Or do you never need to have been a believer to do that?

[CyberPaladin]

I figure I will throw in my 2 cents on this which is I tend to lean towards OSAS camp because of indications given in Scripture. However though I'm unwilling to reject the possibilty that someone who was save could turn there back on Christ for something like Isalm for inorder to do that I would have to judge someone else's heart which is clealy an action Christians are not supposed to do.

[Zugzwang]

Obviously i'm new to this part of CF, I too tend to lean towards OSAS, cept when I don't "feel" saved, b/c of whatever. However, the eventual question always comes up that should be adressed about this topic...

There's a verse that mentions God BLOTTING OUT someone's name in the book of life, so obviously they WERE saved, yet their salvation was removed by God, so how do you explain that?

Now instead of just agreeing, we can actually discuss it.

[Jim47]

This is such a fundamental part of our faith, but no-one seems to know for sure. I certainly don't. I think yes, but it'd be good for us to discuss it.

Equally, we all sin every day so, as many believe, do we need to repent in order to stay saved? If we don't repent, do we lose salvation? If so, what did Jesus accomplish on the Cross if not our salvation?

Maybe collectively we'll come up with some never before discovered jewel of information that tells us definitively one way or the other :D



The short answer is we aren't saved because of repentance from daily sins. We are saved because God gave us faith in Jesus as our Savior.

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
Eph 2:5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast

[Jim47]

You cannot lose salvation, but you can reject it.

:thumbsup: :amen: :clap:



Correcto mundo :preach:

[A New Dawn]

:clap: That's exactly how I see it, too :) So what does it mean to reject it? People who were Christian and then turned their back on it and converted to Islam or Buddhism or get involved in occultism, for example... or if you reject it, does that mean you were never one of the elect?

Why would God offer salvation to someone who is going to reject it? Is Christ's sacrifice in vain? You were either predestined for heaven, or predestined for hell. If you reject it, then you were never elect to begin with.

[GreenMunchkin]

Why would God offer salvation to someone who is going to reject it? Is Christ's sacrifice in vain? You were either predestined for heaven, or predestined for hell. If you reject it, then you were never elect to begin with.I'm not sure I agree with that first bit... I think God offers salvation to *everyone*; even people that flat out reject it straight off the bat.

[Zugzwang]

ok, so no one wants to adresse the whole blotting the name out of the book post?

ok.

[GreenMunchkin]

ok, so no one wants to adresse the whole blotting the name out of the book post?

ok.It'll be discussed :hug: It's just the traffic in this thread hasn't been very trafficky tonight. Someone will come along who wants to comment on it, though :)

[A New Dawn]

I'm not sure I agree with that first bit... I think God offers salvation to *everyone*; even people that flat out reject it straight off the bat.

There is a generalized call to everyone. There is a specific call to those with "ears to hear". Only those with ears to hear will hear. They are the elect. If someone rejects it, they did not have ears to hear.

[GreenMunchkin]

There is a generalized call to everyone. There is a specific call to those with "ears to hear". Only those with ears to hear will hear. They are the elect. If someone rejects it, they did not have ears to hear.No, that I agree with :)

But I'm still not sure someone can't willfully choose to reject Christ even after they've known Him.

[A New Dawn]

Obviously i'm new to this part of CF, I too tend to lean towards OSAS, cept when I don't "feel" saved, b/c of whatever. However, the eventual question always comes up that should be adressed about this topic...

There's a verse that mentions God BLOTTING OUT someone's name in the book of life, so obviously they WERE saved, yet their salvation was removed by God, so how do you explain that?

Now instead of just agreeing, we can actually discuss it.

There is only one verse in the Bible that mentions blotting something out, and it is not in relation to the Book of Life.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

There are 8 verses about the Book of Life

Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Were you thinking of one of the above verses?

[Angel4Truth]

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[Zugzwang]

lets look at this in context, ok?

Revelation 3:1-5 “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels”.

i see a big difference when taken in context.

[A New Dawn]

So, I am confused. :scratch: Are you saying that that scripture implies that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life? I think it implies just the opposite. I see it as an assurance of salvation, that people will not have their names removed from the book.

[Rep Daddy]

http://www.pimall.com/nais/images/dispen.gifhttp://www.pimall.com/nais/images/dis.gif

[Albion]

So, I am confused. :scratch: Are you saying that that scripture implies that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life? I think it implies just the opposite. I see it as an assurance of salvation, that people will not have their names removed from the book.

The verse that was quoted by Zugz said that there would NOT be a blotting out, so I don't see how you could be wrong.

Of course the verse can be made to look different if it is reproduced like this: I will not blot out

with the "not" deemphasized and the "blot out" emphasized.;)

[IamRedeemed]

I think it depends on what one's definition of it is. We can know we are saved by where we are in our walk. We know if we are walking with the Lord or not, therefore everyday we can know if we died that day, we will be with Him in eternity. We know if we have contended for the faith or if we were lukewarm.

If we are backslidden there is a good reason to get back to moving forward. Because you can only go back so far, before one is cut off and turned over to a reprobate mind, and a veil placed over one's eyes by the Lord that they will no longer be able to see the truth. There is a load of Scripture that does not back the "doctrine" of once saved always saved, in the way it is presented. Many think they say a "sinner's prayer" and they are good to go!
That's a lie.

If we find ourselves comfortable in a backslidden state, we are then lukewarm and on our way to growing cold. We don't have to be cold to be spewed from the Lord's mouth.

One such Scripture, off the top of my head that refutes OSAS completely is Revelation 3:5, out of the mouth of Jesus, regarding blotting the name of one out of the book of Life. (as I said there are tons of other Scriptures that refute it. Choosing Christ and committing to following Him for the rest of our lives is NOT summed up in a little ole "sinner's prayer."

If one's name was never there in the Book of Life to begin with as OSAS doctrine beholders claim, how is it possible that there could there be a threat of it being blotted out?

Revelation 3:5
He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.




This is such a fundamental part of our faith, but no-one seems to know for sure. I certainly don't. I think yes, but it'd be good for us to discuss it.

Equally, we all sin every day so, as many believe, do we need to repent in order to stay saved? If we don't repent, do we lose salvation? If so, what did Jesus accomplish on the Cross if not our salvation?

Maybe collectively we'll come up with some never before discovered jewel of information that tells us definitively one way or the other :D

[IamRedeemed]

So, I am confused. :scratch: Are you saying that that scripture implies that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life? I think it implies just the opposite. I see it as an assurance of salvation, that people will not have their names removed from the book.


I did not read all of the posts before I replied, but I see that some have already quoted Rev. 3:5

No, your understanding is not correct on that verse, in that there is a condition spoken by the Lord as are most of His promises. You will see here, that the condition is for "he that overcomes". Not he who says a sinner's prayer and then continues to live the same life he always did or attempts to enter in by a life of compromise and serving two masters.

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5

Some additional Scriptures to look at closely are Hebrews 6:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:4-6;&version=9)
Hebrews 10:26-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:26-31%20;&version=9) , John 15:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:1-4;&version=9;), 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:1-12;&version=9;) , Romans 12:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Romans+12%3A1), Romans 8:13-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:13-17;&version=9) , 2 Peter 2:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%202:20-22;&version=9) , James 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:22;&version=9;)

[A New Dawn]

I did not read all of the posts before I replied, but I see that some have already quoted Rev. 3:5

No, your understanding is not correct on that verse, in that there is a condition spoken by the Lord as are most of His promises. You will see here, that the condition is for "he that overcomes". Not he who says a sinner's prayer and then continues to live the same life he always did or attempts to enter in by a life of compromise and serving two masters.

"He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev. 3:5

Some additional Scriptures to look at closely are Hebrews 6:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:4-6;&version=9)
Hebrews 10:26-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:26-31%20;&version=9) , John 15:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:1-4;&version=9;), 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:1-12;&version=9;) , Romans 12:1 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NASB&passage=Romans+12%3A1), Romans 8:13-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208:13-17;&version=9) , 2 Peter 2:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%202:20-22;&version=9) , James 1:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:22;&version=9;)

Being that I am a Calvinist, and believe in the perseverance of the saints, and that, when we are born again, we are created for good works, I believe that that would be the same as "overcoming" or enduring to the end.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[DaRev]

If you are of the elect (your name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will be saved. If you are not of the elect (your name wasn't written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will not be saved.


The problem with this then would be the reason for the crucifixion of Christ. If God has already determined who will be saved and who will be damned, then there was absolutely no point in the suffering and death of Jesus.

The fact is that our salvation is completely and totally God's doing. Our damnation is completely and totally our own doing. Grace is indeed resistible. If it were not, then Adam and Eve would not have been able to sin in the Garden.

[furry001]

If you are of the elect (your name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will be saved. If you are not of the elect (your name wasn't written in the book of life from the foundation of the world), you will not be saved.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Revelation 17:8 ... whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

A couple of problems arise when you take this stance, namely the "whosoever". John 3:16 says, "...that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish..." There are others but this will suffice. If only the elect can be saved, why did Jesus say that whosoever believeth shall be saved?

On topic, OSAS is true because John 3 tells us that "ye must be born again". Someone who is born cannot be unborn. Spiritually speaking if we are born again, we have eternal life and we cannot die (we cannot be unborn).

[A New Dawn]

A couple of problems arise when you take this stance, namely the "whosoever". John 3:16 says, "...that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish..." There are others but this will suffice. If only the elect can be saved, why did Jesus say that whosoever believeth shall be saved?

On topic, OSAS is true because John 3 tells us that "ye must be born again". Someone who is born cannot be unborn. Spiritually speaking if we are born again, we have eternal life and we cannot die (we cannot be unborn).

Because the "whosoever believeth" are the elect.

[Rep Daddy]

Because the "whosoever believeth" are the elect.

I love it when you talk Calvinistic. :thumbsup:

[NewGuy101]

The problem with this then would be the reason for the crucifixion of Christ. If God has already determined who will be saved and who will be damned, then there was absolutely no point in the suffering and death of Jesus.

The fact is that our salvation is completely and totally God's doing. Our damnation is completely and totally our own doing. Grace is indeed resistible. If it were not, then Adam and Eve would not have been able to sin in the Garden.
Isn't it a little pressumptious to assume that election dissolves sin? Just because we are choosen for God that doesn't imply we wont fail him?

Also, how is the cross less meaninful if it's for a select few which God chose rather than for an arbitrary system which we all have "free will"?

[NewGuy101]

I love it when you talk Calvinistic. :thumbsup:
It's HAWT! :P

[Jim47]

So, I am confused. :scratch: Are you saying that that scripture implies that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life? I think it implies just the opposite. I see it as an assurance of salvation, that people will not have their names removed from the book.


So why would Paul write this?

1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Paul clearly believes Timothy has faith, yet warns him not to fall away.

And he wrote this to the Corinthians

1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

Also, I would like to what scripture you use to support your belief of couble predestination.

[sanctifiedband]

This is such a fundamental part of our faith, but no-one seems to know for sure. I certainly don't. I think yes, but it'd be good for us to discuss it.

Equally, we all sin every day so, as many believe, do we need to repent in order to stay saved? If we don't repent, do we lose salvation? If so, what did Jesus accomplish on the Cross if not our salvation?

Maybe collectively we'll come up with some never before discovered jewel of information that tells us definitively one way or the other :D


I believe that one does not lose salvation when one sins. Sinning is something that happens everyday.. Even my youth pastor sins.. But he is still a Godly man and follows Jesus in everything he does. However, I do believe that if you have done something wrong, and that wrong is bearing heavily on your heart, then you should go to God and ask for His forgiveness. However, I do not believe that it is that easy to lose your salvation. One must purposefully walk away from God and declare his independence from God. To do this, I think it takes a bit more than just sinning.

God loves us no matter how many times we sin or even if we walk away from Him. So I believe that once you become saved, that it is almost impossible for you to just lose that salvation through everyday sinning

[A New Dawn]

So why would Paul write this?

1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Paul clearly believes Timothy has faith, yet warns him not to fall away.

And he wrote this to the Corinthians

1Co 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.



I believe that there is a difference between losing your faith and falling away. I believe that God gave us our faith and preserves us so that we can't lose it, but we all sin and fall away to certain extents. Sometimes we fall away to the point where God needs to discipline us. Such instances are recorded in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 5:1-8

This makes it clear that God will preserve us and not let us fall away, to the point of ending our life so we can't fall away to the point that we cannot return.

Also, I would like to what scripture you use to support your belief of couble predestination.

I don't believe in double predestination.

[DaRev]

Isn't it a little pressumptious to assume that election dissolves sin? Just because we are choosen for God that doesn't imply we wont fail him?

Precisely why OSAS is bogus.

Also, how is the cross less meaninful if it's for a select few which God chose rather than for an arbitrary system which we all have "free will"?

But we don't have "free will." Our will is bound to the sinful nature. Free will would suggest that we are free to choose to not sin which is contrary to Scripture on so many levels.

In John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world..." In Greek the word is 'kosmos" which encompasses all people, not a select few. Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 28 to make disciples of "all nations". In Greek it's "panta ethnos" which encompasses all people, not just a select few. In Romans 10 Paul quotes the prophet Joel when he says "Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved." He doesn't say "only the elect who call on the Name of the Lord...."

Righteousness comes from God alone. Man cannot make himself righteous. Yet in Ezekiel 33:12 it says, "whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin." If a righteous man, who can only be made righteous by God, sins - thus turning away from his God given righteousness - he is lost.

Christ's death on the cross was for all people (the "kosmos" "panta ethnos"), not a select few. While there are many who will acknowledge this and be saved, there are many more who will reject this free gift of God's grace and be lost. Our salvation is wholly God's doing. Our damnation is wholly our doing. God does not send anyone to hell. We do that all by ourselves.

[Rep Daddy]

The Parable of the Amyraldian*

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

He also sends a Special Courier to deliver three of the tickets to a select group of the ten and has the Courier earnestly persuade them to go {His persuasion is irresistible!} The Courier then escorts them onto the plane insuring they get to Hawaii.

The other seven get the letter and the ticket that has been purchased for them, but because they hate the wealthy man [he makes them feel guilty] they refuse to use the ticket. They each think. If I ever go to Hawaii, I'm going MY way. No one is paying my way, especially not That Guy!

The wealthy man, his son and the courier rejoice with the three in Hawaii. The other seven never make it and their tickets, while paid in full, are never used. While the three are in the beauty of Hawaii with the wealthy man a plague strikes the home towns of the seven and they perish.

NOTE: This is an artificially constructed parable to show how the price can be paid in full for those who refuse to receive the gift. The Father's election and the Spirit's persuasion are limited to the elect, yet a ticket purchased by the Son is legitimately extended to all.

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment

[Angel4Truth]

I believe that he that overcomes is he that has received eternal life , they have overcome death by being brought to life in the Spirit.

I also believe that the lambs book and the book of life are 2 different books. One book is all who have been saved (lambs book) and the book of life is everyone who has ever been born (physically) and those who go to the second death at the judgment have their names blotted out of that book.

[Albion]

The Parable of the Amyraldian

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

The analogy or artificial parable demonstrates free will, not any version of election.

[NewGuy101]

Precisely why OSAS is bogus.



But we don't have "free will." Our will is bound to the sinful nature. Free will would suggest that we are free to choose to not sin which is contrary to Scripture on so many levels.

In John 3:16 it says "For God so loved the world..." In Greek the word is 'kosmos" which encompasses all people, not a select few. Jesus tells the apostles in Matthew 28 to make disciples of "all nations". In Greek it's "panta ethnos" which encompasses all people, not just a select few. In Romans 10 Paul quotes the prophet Joel when he says "Everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved." He doesn't say "only the elect who call on the Name of the Lord...."

Righteousness comes from God alone. Man cannot make himself righteous. Yet in Ezekiel 33:12 it says, "whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin." If a righteous man, who can only be made righteous by God, sins - thus turning away from his God given righteousness - he is lost.

Christ's death on the cross was for all people (the "kosmos" "panta ethnos"), not a select few. While there are many who will acknowledge this and be saved, there are many more who will reject this free gift of God's grace and be lost. Our salvation is wholly God's doing. Our damnation is wholly our doing. God does not send anyone to hell. We do that all by ourselves.
Let me highlight the important parts of the scripture you missed...

kosmos <2889>
kosmov kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Origin: probably from the base of 2865
Reference: TDNT - 3:868,459
PrtSpch: noun masculine
In Greek: kosmou 71, kosmon 46, kosmw 36, kosmov 31
In NET: world 176, world's 5, worldly 2, age 1
In AV: world 186, adorning 1
Count: 187
Definition: 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. \\#1Pe 3:3\\
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (\\#Ro 11:12\\ etc)
8b) of believers only, \\#John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47\\
\\#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19\\

You right, God does love the world, but that doesn't imply that he loves every individual the same. Also you are missing the second part of that verse..

NET ©

For this is the way 1 God loved the world: He gave his one and only 2 Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish 3 but have eternal life. 4

You are not going to believe unless you a part of God's elect. The same problem carries on with Matthew 28, he does want to make deciples of all nations that doesn't imply everyone will believe. Also conciding with your argument if God really did love everyone he would orgenize a system in which he would show himself and everyone would clearly see he is the one. If God wanted everyone to get saved he would do so. And you are partially right we send ourselves to hell because we are responsible for our actions...because we all deserve HELL. Except God saves a select few through Grace.

Romans8:28 And we know that all things work together 32 for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son 33 would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 34 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified


...because non are rightous not one and we all deserve internal damnation...


The Condemnation of the World

3:9 What then? Are we better off? Certainly not, for we have already charged that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin, 3:10 just as it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one,

3:11 there is no one who understands,

there is no one who seeks God.

3:12 All have turned away,

together they have become worthless;

there is no one who shows kindness, not even one.” 15

3:13 “Their throats are open graves, 16

they deceive with their tongues,

the poison of asps is under their lips.” 17

3:14 “Their mouths are 18 full of cursing and bitterness.” 19

3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,

3:16 ruin and misery are in their paths,

3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.” 20

3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 21

3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under 22 the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 3:20 For no one is declared righteous before him 23 by the works of the law, 24 for through the law comes 25 the knowledge of sin.

But God has mercy on who he wants to have mercy...

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

[Hishandmaiden]

I will be frank.
I am not sure about the answer to this question.

I used to be sure that it is not once saved, always saved, based on something Jesus said about how some who call Him Lord, Lord, will not be allowed into the Kingdom of heaven.

Then, I met a friend, who showed me the grace message, and I change my mind to think that once a christian is truly saved, that is, he or she is born again, so long as he or she holds onto Jesus, he or she will not be turned away even if he or she is a sinner.

This is based on how Paul scolded the christians in 1st corinthians for having a sexual immorality that is worst than the pagans in their midst and he tells them to expel the immoral brother from their midst and then, in 2nd corinthians, Paul relented and asked the christians to receive back the brother they had put out of fellowship with, in love.

Then, I see something happened in the book of Acts where two believers were slained for lying.

Then, I am confused. Today, I am still trying to determine what God really said about this issue. I am still exploring.

[DaRev]

Let me highlight the important parts of the scripture you missed...

kosmos <2889>
kosmov kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Origin: probably from the base of 2865
Reference: TDNT - 3:868,459
PrtSpch: noun masculine
In Greek: kosmou 71, kosmon 46, kosmw 36, kosmov 31
In NET: world 176, world's 5, worldly 2, age 1
In AV: world 186, adorning 1
Count: 187
Definition: 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. \\#1Pe 3:3\\
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God,
and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages,
pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting,
stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause
of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (\\#Ro 11:12\\ etc)
8b) of believers only, \\#John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47\\
\\#1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19\\

You right, God does love the world, but that doesn't imply that he loves every individual the same. Also you are missing the second part of that verse..

NET ©

For this is the way 1 God loved the world: He gave his one and only 2 Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish 3 but have eternal life. 4

You are not going to believe unless you a part of God's elect. The same problem carries on with Matthew 28, he does want to make deciples of all nations that doesn't imply everyone will believe. Also conciding with your argument if God really did love everyone he would orgenize a system in which he would show himself and everyone would clearly see he is the one. If God wanted everyone to get saved he would do so. And you are partially right we send ourselves to hell because we are responsible for our actions...because we all deserve HELL. Except God saves a select few through Grace.




...because non are rightous not one and we all deserve internal damnation...



But God has mercy on who he wants to have mercy...

First of all, don't pretend to preach Greek to me. I know a little more about it than that.

Second, no where in any of the Scriptures does it say anything about God loving anyone less than others. The kosmos is all encompassing. The text does not say "For God so loved the world, but some more or less than others...". No where is that even implied.

The rest of the verse also says nothing about those who do not believe. Do they not believe because God has not given them the gift of faith, or do they not believe because they have rejected God's giftg of faith and life won for them on the cross of Christ which is for all Men? The latter is true.

I do not doubt at all that there are those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world for His purpose. But that does not at all suggest that they are the ONLY ones to be saved or that others may not be able to lose their salvation.

[NewGuy101]

First of all, don't pretend to preach Greek to me. I know a little more about it than that.

Second, no where in any of the Scriptures does it say anything about God loving anyone less than others. The kosmos is all encompassing. The text does not say "For God so loved the world, but some more or less than others...". No where is that even implied.

The rest of the verse also says nothing about those who do not believe. Do they not believe because God has not given them the gift of faith, or do they not believe because they have rejected God's giftg of faith and life won for them on the cross of Christ which is for all Men? The latter is true.

I do not doubt at all that there are those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world for His purpose. But that does not at all suggest that they are the ONLY ones to be saved or that others may not be able to lose their salvation.
I never pretended to know more Greek than you, I am just showing you the definitions. It's sad that you bring pride to this argument when all I intend to show is truth.

Secondly, although it doesn't directly express that you cannot deny the clear passages that speak of God's elect. You clearly see in the OT that God choose Isreal and several of his decendents as his people and that carries on to the NT.

Other verses speak of how others will be blinded and and how regenerate believers have a new nature. If you connect the passages you clearly who will believe...the elect.

Isa (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Isa&chapter=6#10)6:10 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Isa&chapter=6&verse=10)Make the hearts of these people calloused; make their ears deaf and their eyes blind! Otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, their hearts might understand and they might repent and be healed.”1


Isa (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Isa&chapter=42#16)42:16 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Isa&chapter=42&verse=16)I will lead the blind along an unfamiliar way; 1 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) I will guide them down paths they have never traveled. 2 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) I will turn the darkness in front of them into light, and level out the rough ground. 3 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);) This is what I will do for them. I will not abandon them.

You clearly see through the NT that God has elect and is seen over and over. Not only that but it shows how God is directly involved in the entire process.


John

10:27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 10:28 I give 67 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n67) them eternal life, and they will never perish; 68 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n68) no one will snatch 69 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n69) them from my hand. 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 70 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n70) and no one can snatch 71 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n71) them from my Father’s hand. 10:30 The Father and I 72 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n72) are one.”73 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Joh&chapter=10#n73)

Ephesians

1:4 For 8 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n8) he chose us in Christ 9 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n9) before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished 10 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n10) in his sight 11 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n11) in love. 12 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n12)1:5 He did this by predestining 13 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n13) us to adoption as his 14 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n14) sons 15 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n15) through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure 16 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n16) of his will – 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace 17 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n17) that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. 18 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n18)1:7 In him 19 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n19) we have redemption through his blood, 20 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n20) the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 1:8 that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. 1:9 He did this when he revealed 21 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n21) to us the secret 22 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n22) of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth 23 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n23) in Christ, 24 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n24)1:10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up 25 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n25) all things in Christ – the things in heaven 26 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eph&chapter=1#n26) and the things on earth.

No where in scripture does it state that there is those he choose unconditional election and others for conditional. Scripture clearly shows were are all of his sheep and loves us and choose us.

[John1and1]

NewGuy

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[NewGuy101]

NewGuy

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1) Nope

2) How is saving someone by Grace the same as tauting someone who is sick?

3) I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.

4) This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.

[John1and1]

1) Nope

2) How is saving someone by Grace the same as tauting someone who is sick?

3) I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.

4) This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.




please humor me and answer #2

[NewGuy101]

please humor me and answer #2
What are you talking about? I did. I don't get your analogy. It's completely different.

[John1and1]

it is a very simple question

Is God evil, in that He taunts people for that which is not their fault? As in the example of someone with downs syndrome. Would God taunt someone over things they had no choice in?

[NewGuy101]

it is a very simple question

Is God evil, in that He taunts people for that which is not their fault? As in the example of someone with downs syndrome. Would God taunt someone over things they had no choice in?
What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.

[Rep Daddy]

Reasons to be an Arminian

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!



.

[NewGuy101]

Reasons to be an Arminian

1. If getting saved once was great, Arminians get to get saved over and over and over...

2. Most of the world believes in free will so even atheists have your back on this point.

3. You get to make the eternal difference and God can't stop ya!

4. When (if) you get to Heaven you lose your free will and finally don't have to sweat hanging on to Jesus by your fingernails.

5. Calvinist caricatures are fun to paint.

7. Daisies have more petals than tulips. More fun to play the He loves me, He loves me not game. Those darn 5 petal tulips always end up with He loves me... boring!



.

Answering with sarcasm will only push them farther away. Let them ask what they want, I will point out their logical flaws.

[Rep Daddy]

Just some topical humor.

[John1and1]

What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.



Show me where i said anything akin to that? you are entirely incorrect, and i dont know why this question intimidates you to the posint you cant give me a simple yes or no answer.

Is God evil in that He taunts those who have no control over what they are born into as in the case of someone with downs syndrome? Yes or no, its really very simple

[John1and1]

Just some topical humor.


Dr Steve if you are Calvinist by all means give me your serious topical answers to the 4 questions i asked newguy


1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[DaRev]

What you are saying is that sinners deserve that God saves them. And you are dead wrong on that one.

This is true. Sinners do not deserve to be saved. But we are ALL sinners. We ALL deserve death and hell. We are ALL born in a state of rebellion against God (Psalm 51:5). All have fallen short of the glory of God. There is no one who does good, no not one.

But God the Son came so that ALL may have life. His atoning sacrifice was for ALL sin, not just the sin of the elect. The gift of faith and life and salvation is given to ALL. Those who are lost are those who have wilfully rejected that free gift. God gives it to everyone. But not everyone acknowledges it. Many will reject it to their own damnation.

[Rep Daddy]

Dr Steve if you are Calvinist by all means give me your serious topical answers to the 4 questions i asked newguy


1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.

4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.

HOW DID I DO?

[NewGuy101]

Show me where i said anything akin to that? you are entirely incorrect, and i dont know why this question intimidates you to the posint you cant give me a simple yes or no answer.

Is God evil in that He taunts those who have no control over what they are born into as in the case of someone with downs syndrome? Yes or no, its really very simple
Nope, I was hoping that you weren't setting up a straw man argument but now I know that was your intent.

Basically this is your argument

Premise 1 : God is evil if he taunts
Premise 2: God cannot be evil
Premise 3: Predestination is like a taunt

Therefore predestination is wrong since God cannot be evil. Well while premise 1 and 2 are true biblically premise 3 isn't.

[John1and1]

and how is this a straw man when you dont even know where it is leading? The question intimidates you because i believe you know its about to defeat your calvinist doctrine ;)

simple yes or no, if it is a straw man it is easily burnt, i take great joy in burning straw men myself

so before we forget your 3 answers please give us tour 4th

[NewGuy101]

and how is this a straw man when you dont even know where it is leading? The question intimidates you because i believe you know its about to defeat your calvinist doctrine ;)

simple yes or no, if it is a straw man it is easily burnt, i take great joy in burning straw men myself

so before we forget your 3 answers please give us tour 4th
What are you talking about? It's leading to say that God is evil.

...and I don't even know what the bold portion means.

[John1and1]

So you DO believe God is an evil taunter, but you dont want to say it outloud?

I left the question open as to YOUR impression of God and you say it leads you to say God is evil and a taunter?

[NewGuy101]

So you DO believe God is an evil taunter, but you dont want to say it outloud?

I left the question open as to YOUR impression of God and you say it leads you to say God is evil and a taunter?
This is really getting dumb... please if you are going to discuss scripture please attempt to use valid arguments.

[magdiel]

I am not a calvinist, I am free will to the core.

[John1and1]

NewGuy

I agree it isnt smart to run from a question openly in a debate. Makes it look as though you have no answer. Lets look at what we have so far

These are your answers to the quesitons

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?
Answer: 1) Nope

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

Answer: none given excelt to say it would lead you to say God is evil


3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

Answer: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.


4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Answer: This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way.



So much for your answers, now lets move to the points

You say you believe 2 Peter, and yet 2 Peter tells us that it is NOT the fathers will that ANY man perish but that ALL would come to repentence.

If you believe the word NOT meants NOT, and ANY means ANY, and ALL means ALL, then calvinist doctrine is in grosserror because they teach it is NOT the Fathers will that all men be saved but that MOST in fact perish.


let me address a couple other issues

1) GOD is LOVE ... If God therefore chose some intentionally to go to Hell, He is no longer a just and loving God, by a maniacle tyrant. How can He say He loves THE WORLD and decide to keep salvation from most of them... This makes Him a liar as well and my God is no liar

2) Pharoahs heart was hardened... YES it was but only because pharoah himself denied the God of the Hebrew and refused to honor Him as God, so this was by Pharoahs choice and God gave him up to go his own way

3) Romans 1 tells us EVERY MAN is without excuse because even nature itself teaches them there is a God, and when they KNEW this they chose to not glorify Him as God, so God gave them up to go their own way

4) ALL that come to Christ are those given to Him by the Father.,,. for GOD SO LOVED the world that He gave His son so that WHOSOEVER believed could have everlasting life

5) ALL that come are recieved and NOT ONE is cast out

6) Jesus, John 1 tells us, is the LIGHT which lit the heart of EVERY MAN that came into the world... EVERY man

7) ALL these scriptures and many more work together to show us that God is Good, God is Just, God is Love, and that Salvation is for whosover will... not just the ones 'called' for its the Fathers will that ALL men come to repentance


Also if God is an evil taunter as you alledge then i can understand his conversation with Cain. I on the other hand do not believe God is evil OR a taunter, so i muct conclude that God's conversation with Cain was honest.

1) God had a choice. He could create a race of robots, put love in their hearts for Him, offer them no other choice on whom to hold to and serve. On the other hand He could desire we CHOOSE to love Him of our own accord, and even allow us alternate masters to serve. The latter was certainly taking a chance, and most people ARE selfish and wish to serve themselves, not knowing they are choosing in effect to serve satan.

God is not false or pretentious. He is not one who forces our affections, but one who loves us in the desire we love Him back. He even loves and bears long with the wicked, calling and entreating them as He did with Cain.

On a smaller scale we as people sometimes have to let those we love go their own way... we can bear with them and entreat them and warn them of where their rebellion will take them... We can see where all this will lead them and yet to be 'righteous' we must let them eventually make their own decisions despite the fact we know the trouble they are buying for themselves.

In this God is not unrighteous, but totally righteous and loving and careing, even entreating us as we go our own way... Even there for us IF we see the err of our way and repent.

2) God had a choice for His design...

a) predestine us so that we couldnt choose salvation even if we wanted to. Never even putting His light of truth into us, never dealing with us in mind and heart. Never calling those many at all. Having foreknowledge according to HIS predetermined predestination. Creating an entire world of people for hundreds of generations, only to say, "These i will choose for heaven, these i will never give the chance"
Indeed this one IS a mean spirited and bigoted God, and we could NEVER just love Him, but only know fear, because He Himself would not love His creation, nor would Jesus have died for all the sins of the world... it could NEVER be 'whosoever will'.


b) Or God in his foreknowledge could predestine us to be what He calls us to be. This God deals with every man, salvation is for whoever will. He entreated Cain and even the very worst of us.
LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world.


These are 2 entirely differant Gods, the calvinist and the noncalvinist, my friend

[Melethiel]

John - I'm not even Calvinist, and I can see that your question #2 is a complete strawman.

[NewGuy101]

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust?
Answer: 1) Nope

2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them?

Answer: none given excelt to say it would lead you to say God is evil


3) Do you believe every passage in the bible?

Answer: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture, I don't get why you would even bother asking this question.


4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Answer: This means that God wants everyone to be saved, but that doesn't mean he does it. BTW even by the arminian system if God wanted to save everyone he could do it as well but doesn't do it...so that argument doesn't work either way. These questions were a complete waste of time and the reason why I refused to answer question 2 it's because it's a loaded question.




You say you believe 2 Peter, and yet 2 Peter tells us that it is NOT the fathers will that ANY man perish but that ALL would come to repentence.

If you believe the word NOT meants NOT, and ANY means ANY, and ALL means ALL, then calvinist doctrine is in grosserror because they teach it is NOT the Fathers will that all men be saved but that MOST in fact perish.

What that verse says is what God WANTS to happen. Again, because someone or THE ONE (God) want's something that doesn't imply that HE will do it.



1) GOD is LOVE ... If God therefore chose some intentionally to go to Hell, He is no longer a just and loving God, by a maniacle tyrant. How can He say He loves THE WORLD and decide to keep salvation from most of them... This makes Him a liar as well and my God is no liar
Again, God is in control of everything. Then how, is he not responsible in the armian system for doing more? Is it justifiable saying..well someone randomly listened to me while randomly others didn't so it's justifable to send them to hell? God by your own logic would still be responsible since he could do more.

2) Pharoahs heart was hardened... YES it was but only because pharoah himself denied the God of the Hebrew and refused to honor Him as God, so this was by Pharoahs choice and God gave him up to go his own way This is were you seem to misunderstand calvinism. God's will and mans desire go hand in hand so Pharoah was hardended by his own choice and God was responsible of it.

3) Romans 1 tells us EVERY MAN is without excuse because even nature itself teaches them there is a God, and when they KNEW this they chose to not glorify Him as God, so God gave them up to go their own way Yes, but they will not be able to see it. And certainly while nature defines a god that doesn't imply that it points to a triune God. Are Muslims going to heaven as well?

4) ALL that come to Christ are those given to Him by the Father.,,. for GOD SO LOVED the world that He gave His son so that WHOSOEVER believed could have everlasting life Key word is believe...who will genuinely believe? God's elect. I explained this already.

5) ALL that come are recieved and NOT ONE is cast out All who come genuinely will be God's elect.

6) Jesus, John 1 tells us, is the LIGHT which lit the heart of EVERY MAN that came into the world... EVERY man How exactly does that imply salvation?


7) ALL these scriptures and many more work together to show us that God is Good, God is Just, God is Love, and that Salvation is for whosover will... not just the ones 'called' for its the Fathers will that ALL men come to repentance

Yep, but unless you are God's elect you cannot will to come to God because you are totally depraved.

Also if God is an evil taunter as you alledge then i can understand his conversation with Cain. I on the other hand do not believe God is evil OR a taunter, so i muct conclude that God's conversation with Cain was honest. Actually you alladed him to be a taunter. That's why you set up question number 2 with straw man.


1) God had a choice. He could create a race of robots, put love in their hearts for Him, offer them no other choice on whom to hold to and serve. On the other hand He could desire we CHOOSE to love Him of our own accord, and even allow us alternate masters to serve. The latter was certainly taking a chance, and most people ARE selfish and wish to serve themselves, not knowing they are choosing in effect to serve satan.
So love is an arbitrary feeling? Wow awesome love, certainly violates

1Co (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Co&chapter=13#4)13:4 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Co&chapter=13&verse=4)Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up.



God is not false or pretentious. He is not one who forces our affections, but one who loves us in the desire we love Him back. He even loves and bears long with the wicked, calling and entreating them as He did with Cain. Again, you don't understand the calvinistic system so I wont even dignify this with a response since it's another strawman.


On a smaller scale we as people sometimes have to let those we love go their own way... we can bear with them and entreat them and warn them of where their rebellion will take them... We can see where all this will lead them and yet to be 'righteous' we must let them eventually make their own decisions despite the fact we know the trouble they are buying for themselves.
No one said not to treat them warmly another strawman.

In this God is not unrighteous, but totally righteous and loving and careing, even entreating us as we go our own way... Even there for us IF we see the err of our way and repent. Actually your god is an uncontrolling god that logically cannot know how events will occur.


2) God had a choice for His design...
He sure did, I think he made the best choice.


a) predestine us so that we couldnt choose salvation even if we wanted to. Never even putting His light of truth into us, never dealing with us in mind and heart. Never calling those many at all. Having foreknowledge according to HIS predetermined predestination. Creating an entire world of people for hundreds of generations, only to say, "These i will choose for heaven, these i will never give the chance"
Indeed this one IS a mean spirited and bigoted God, and we could NEVER just love Him, but only know fear, because He Himself would not love His creation, nor would Jesus have died for all the sins of the world... it could NEVER be 'whosoever will'.
You just keep showing me that you don't understand calvinism.



b) Or God in his foreknowledge could predestine us to be what He calls us to be. This God deals with every man, salvation is for whoever will. He entreated Cain and even the very worst of us.
LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?
How exctly did God know what Cain was going to do if Cain could make an arbitrary choice?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it. Useless question.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world. Scriptural evidence for this...


These are 2 entirely differant Gods, the calvinist and the noncalvinist, my friend Sure are, your god doesn't exist since he violates logic.

[Angel4Truth]

Not calvanist and my God exists. I am a christian, not a calvanist, not a baptist, not a methodist, not a catholic, etc... I am a follower of Christ who was God in the flesh who came to die for the sins of the world including mine and rose again.

[John1and1]

These questions were a complete waste of time and the reason why I refused to answer question 2 it's because it's a loaded question.

Of course you would consider it a loaded question since it goes against your doctrine. Either God wanted Cain to decide for himself to do good, or He was taunting Cain at best, outright lying to him at worse. But God was neither taunting not lying. He gave Cain the chance to decide for himself whom he would serve. Do you believe this, and if not why? If you do belive this you are not calvinist.




What that verse says is what God WANTS to happen. Again, because someone or THE ONE (God) want's something that doesn't imply that HE will do it.

So now according to calvinistic thought, God will not choose everyone to be saved, but only a select few. Yet in 2 peter we are told that His desire is that all men be saved. Here you imply this is what He wants and yet He will not choose to bring it to pass. Excuse me but this God seems very schiziphrenic. If it is His will that no one perishes, why does calvinist doctrine sayHe chooses most to perish anyway? Is God confused? MANIC DEPRESSANT? Schizophrenic? or is calvinist doctrine simply wrong?




Again, God is in control of everything. Then how, is he not responsible in the armian system for doing more? Is it justifiable saying..well someone randomly listened to me while randomly others didn't so it's justifable to send them to hell.

I cant answer for the armenian, i am neither calvinist nor armenian

This is were you seem to misunderstand calvinism. God's will and mans desire God hand in Hand so Pharoah was hardended by his own choice and God was responsible of it.

Calvinism denies free will, so you would be an exception to calvinism if you believe this


Yep, but unless you are God's elect you cannot will to come to God because you are totally depraved.

So then do you say "Whosoever will" cannot really come? If it is the Fathers will that all men be saved wouldnt He call them all?

Actually you alladed him to be a taunter. That's why you set up question number 2 with straw man.
So love is an arbitrary feeling? Wow awesome love certainly violates

1Co (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=1Co&chapter=13#4)13:4 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Co&chapter=13&verse=4)Love is patient, love is kind, it is not envious. Love does not brag, it is not puffed up.



. Again, you don't understand the calvinistic system so I wont even dignify this with a response.


It is quite possible i have debated calvinism since you were in diapers, so by what criteria do you suggest i dont not understand calvinism? By the fact that you yourself are at odds with it and yet uphold it?



Actually you god is an uncontrolling god that logically cannot know how events will occur.
He sure did, I think he made the best choice.

You just keep showing me that you don't understand calvinism.

You yourself are at odds with calvinism and claim to know what it is and yet you condescend to judge my God?

My God does not control mens decisions in this you are true, yet He foreknew every one ever made, and His plan still comes to pass... hows that for might compared to a god that says he wants all men saved yet refuses to call most of them?


How exctly did God know what Cain was going to do if Cain could make an arbitray choice?

You are going to pretend to debate an issue when you dont even understand foreknoeledge? You do not comprehend that God is not only omnipresent but omniscient as well? Isnt it possible for God to be all knowing without making men into robots who have no choice as to whom they will serve?


New guy

If it is Gods will that all men are saved, why did He not call them all and send most to hell anyway?

[Rep Daddy]

HOW DID I DO?

No answer??

[John1and1]

DrSteve

Yes i have an answer. You have potential but did poorly.

Lets look at your questions and answers

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

No God takes no poll, yet you claim He is just. Is it just for a God to say His will is that all men repent and no man perish and then not ALLOW whosoever will to come?



2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

So i take it you do not believe that God would taunt a man with downs syndrome. Why would He taunt a sinner who had no choice nor chance to be saved? Is this your idea of justice and righteousness?




3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.




4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.


Yes it is 2 Peter 3 thank you. Now you seem to be acerting that God does not mean many of the words He speaks here. For instance, where you take exception to what is literally stated in 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

[John1and1]

John - I'm not even Calvinist, and I can see that your question #2 is a complete strawman.


You are not only calvinist, but you have no idea where question 2 is leading so how do you judge it as anything?


Since you belive it to be a straw man let me put the same question to you bearing question number 2 in mind.

LOOK at the fact that God PLEADED with Cain and salvation was OFFERED to Cain and God's desire was that he CHOOSE salvation and good and right... Cain HAD the choice...

Genesis 4: 6And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.



He pleads all the day long with our spirits to repent because He doesnt desire our destruciton, and yet has limited Himself not to force our affections. This God, though just, IS love and humbles Himself for our good... bears long with us, loving the whole world.

So was God taunting Cain, outright lying to Cain, or did Cain REALLY have the opportunity to choose to offer a pleasing sacrifice?

[Rep Daddy]

DrSteve

Yes i have an answer. You have potential but did poorly.

Lets look at your questions and answers

1) Is God evil in that He is unjust? GOD IS NEITHER EVIL OR UNJUST. NOR DOES HE TAKE A POLL TO DETERMINE WHAT IS FAIR.

No God takes no poll, yet you claim He is just. Is it just for a God to say His will is that all men repent and no man perish and then not ALLOW whosoever will to come?



2) Is God evil in that He taunts men over things they have no control over? For instance would God taunt a person with downs syndrome and mock them? GOD HONORED ELIJAH'S TAUNTING OF THE PROPHETS OF BAAL. FIRE FELL. AS TO DOWN'S SYNDROME, EX 4:11 GOD TAKES CREDIT FOR THOSE BORN WITHOUS SPEECH, SIGHT AND HEARING.

So i take it you do not believe that God would taunt a man with downs syndrome. Why would He taunt a sinner who had no choice nor chance to be saved? Is this your idea of justice and righteousness?




3) Do you believe every passage in the bible? ORIGINAL TEXT AND UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT, YES? DO I UNDERSTAND EVERY PASSAGE? NO.




4) What do you make of this passage, do you believe this one? If so please explain it.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

FIRST YOU HAVE THE WRONG CHAPTER. IT IS CHAPTER 3. SECOND, CONTEXT MAKES IT PLAIN HE IS SPEAKING OF THE ELECT. AND IT IS A GREAT CALVINIST VERSE. FROM AN ARMINIAN VIEW, JESUS CAN'T RETURN SINCE JUST ONE MORE MIGHT REPENT THE NEXT DAY HAD HE WAITED.


Yes it is 2 Peter 3 thank you. Now you seem to be acerting that God does not mean many of the words He speaks here. For instance, where you take exception to what is literally stated in 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

1. God is just because the Bible says he is just. He is just whether His actions satisfy your or my subjective feelings or fallible logic.

2. Show me where in the Bible He mocks downs syndrome suffers. I showed you where He says He makes folks dumb, deaf and blind. And He does not apologize.

As to mankind. All are born sinners deserving Hell. You seem to think Heaven is a right. That ain't right.

4. Not only did you miss the chapter you missed the context of 2 Pet 3:9. This is addressed to believers (the elect) who are perplexed at the delay of Christ's return. They are being mocked by unbelievers. Peter assures them that God is not tardy, He is patient. He is bringing ALL the elect to Himself and when He's done, GAME OVER.

An Arminian has to explain how Christ can ever return since God is gonna sing just one more verse of Just as I am just in case there is one more. How can He know if it's time to drop the curtain.

Hint. Study a passage in context. It improves your theology.

[John1and1]

1. God is just because the Bible says he is just. He is just whether His actions satisfy your or my subjective feelings or fallible logic.


Then i sure you would likely agree that if God were to design billions of people, and tauntingly give us hope that Jesus died for not just MY sins or OUR sins, but the sins of the world, and then refused to call most of them, desireing rather that most go to hell, And then claims He so loved the world, and whosoever will may come, He certainly couldnt be seen as a just God. If you disagree with me, please define the words "JUST" and " JUSTICE" please

2. Show me where in the Bible He mocks downs syndrome suffers. I showed you where He says He makes folks dumb, deaf and blind. And He does not apologize.

No This IS my point. God does not taunt someone who cannot help the state they were born in. No matter if He designed them with a deficiency as we see it, He will not taunt them.

Now we see we are born into sin. We did not make this choice Adam made it for us. Yet this is certainly a spiritual deficiency. We see that God asked Cain why he was down, and ASSURED him that if he would only do right he would be accepted. Was this a taunt, a lie, or did God REALLY MEAN IT and Cain had this choice to make?
Was God not drawing Cain with these words? Pleaing he would come?

Do you disagree that every man is born with the light of God and he is without excuse to reject it?

Do you agree that God draws EVERY human?



As to mankind. All are born sinners deserving Hell. You seem to think Heaven is a right. That ain't right.

You seem to adore assumption in a manner as to attempt to sidetrack any point made against calvinist doctrine. Where did i say heaven is a right? I said no such thing. However the free ift of salvation is offered equally to EVERY man and it is His desire we accept it, though in His foreknowledge He simply knows this aint gonna happen.

4. This is addressed to believers (the elect) who are perplexed at the delay of Christ's return. They are being mocked by unbelievers. Peter assures them that God is not tardy, He is patient. He is bringing ALL the elect to Himself and when He's done, GAME OVER.

An Arminian has to explain how Christ can ever return since God is gonna sing just one more verse of Just as I am just in case there is one more. How can He know if it's time to drop the curtain.

Hint. Study a passage in context. It improves your theology.



You forgot to address this specificly and answer the questions... Dont think for a moment I will let you escape this lol.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

[Rep Daddy]

John when you have read my posts carefully try again.

[Melethiel]

You are not only calvinist, but you have no idea where question 2 is leading so how do you judge it as anything?

Um...I just stated that I'm NOT Calvinist.

[John1and1]

John when you have read my posts carefully try again.


DrSteve

I was pretty sure yours would be a short conversation due to the nature of the points and questions addressed to you. I might suggest though next time try not to blame your opponant for the fact you cant address the points and questions made to you. It lacks class.


If and when you decide to come back however, this will remain for you to address

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

So in other words, you disagree with Peter scribing the word ANY... as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that some perish.

And you also disagree with peter scribing the word ALL, as in your opinion it is the Fathers will that not ALL come to repentance...

In your opinion peter misheard God, or misrepresented what God REALLY meant to say, and should have written, "its not the Fathers will that SOME of you perish but that SOME of you come to repentance"

is this a fair estimation of what you believe? If not please correct me very specificly as to exactly what i have wrong about your 'interpretation' of 2 peter 3:9

[DaRev]

So was God taunting Cain, outright lying to Cain, or did Cain REALLY have the opportunity to choose to offer a pleasing sacrifice?

The bottom line, though, is that we cannot CHOOSE salvation because CHOICE is a work of ours, and we are not saved by any work of ours. We are incapable for making that choice due to the Fall. The gift of Salvation has already been given to all through Christ. He did the work, we reap the benefit.

Think of it this way...

Say there is a young boy who's 12th birthday is coming up. His mother and father decide to give him a bicycle for his birthday. They go and buy it, they pay for it, they put it together. On his birthday the present it to him.
Noe the question is, at what point does that bicycle belong to that boy? At what point does he own it? While some might say "when his parents gave it to him," the reality is that it was his the moment his parents bought and paid for it. It belonged to him. It was his bicycle. His parents may have even referred to it as "Johnny's bicycle" even before his birthday.
The boy didn't buy it, he didn't choose it, he did nothing to earn it. He didn't have to. It was already his. He just didn't know it until it was presented to him.

Our gift of faith ans salvation is the same way. God decided to save us. He did the work. He paid the price. In the person of Christ, He gave the gift of forgiveness and life and salvation to all humanity. We reap the benefit. It is already ours. It belongs to us.

Now, there are three types of people. There are those to whom the gift of life and salvation have been presented through the proclamation of the Gospel (Romans 10:13-17), and they acknowledge it and say "thank you" through their prayers and praise and thanksgivings. (Just like Johnny said "thank you" to mom and dad for his bike.) We call them 'believers'.
There are those who have been presented with the gift through the proclamation of the Gospel, but have actively rejected it. They don't want it. They push it away. We call them 'unbelievers' and are in danger of damnation.
Then there are those who have not yet been presented with the gift. They, too, are 'unbelievers' and are in danger of damnation because of the natural sinful nature that we are all born into. Again, as Romans 10:13-17 teaches, the proclamation of the Gospel is the means by which the gift of salvation is presented. This is why spreading the Gospel to the world is so important.

Now Johnny could tell his parents "I don't want that bicycle" in which case he derives no benefit from it. He also wouldn't derive any benefit from it if it wasn't presented to him because he wouldn't even know he has it.

We don't have to choose or work or accept our gift from God. It is already ours. It simply has to be presented to us in order for us to reap the benefit. And God moves through His people in the Church to see that the Gospel of Christ, the good news of salvation in Him, is presented to the world for which He died.

[dinkime]

well stated, rev!

[John1and1]

DaRev
From the bottom of my heart, though i partly agree and disagree with you, let me say that was a truly fine post. I certainly agree with almost everything including your reasoning, and yet i still see that we do have ultimately aa choice to make.


Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Genesis 4:6
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Job 34:4
Let US CHOOSE to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.


Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not CHOOSE the fear of the LORD

Proverbs 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and CHOOSE none of his ways.


Isaiah 7:15
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good


Isaiah 7:16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


Isaiah 56:
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and CHOOSE the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.


Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did CHOOSE that wherein I delighted not.


It is OUR choice of whom we will serve and what we will conform to, therefore God is just in punishing those who refuse His salvation, and gracious in that it is offered to ALL

[DaRev]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSEYOU this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Genesis 4:6
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Job 34:4
Let US CHOOSE to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.


Proverbs 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and CHOOSEnone of his ways.

Isaiah 65:12
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did CHOOSE that wherein I delighted not.


These verses speak nothing of "choosing" God. The fact remains that the only "choice" that we as naturally sinful human beings have is to reject God.

In the context of Scripture as a whole (since Scripture interprets Scripture) the other verses must be taken in light of the Gospel, which clearly teaches that it is God who has chosen us. We are already His. In our natural sinful state we cannot, would not, choose God.

St Paul says it best in Romans 8:5-8, "For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

[John1and1]

DaRev

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did that?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse.

Hos is it then that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and draws us to God?

[A New Dawn]

Because God ordained it.

John, what do you do with all the scriptures that do not agree with your point of view? On what basis do you cast them aside?

[John1and1]

New Dawn lol

There ARE NO scriptures that disagree with my view lol...

Now i DO note that some people choose to believe one set of passages and disregard the others. Do you disregard the passages which ALL CLAIM we have a choice in the matter?

No my view must conform to ALL scripture. I conform my doctrine to EVERY word of God not pick the half i want to believe.

If you doubt me throw a scripture my way by all means, and then tell me too if you belive the passages i posted above, aLL showing we have a choice.

[DaRev]

DaRev

Let me ask you this. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did that?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse.

Hos is it then that the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and draws us to God?

I guess I don't understand the nature of your question. But let me ask you this - do you believe that we are saved by works or that we contribute in any way toward our salvation?

[John1and1]

I guess I don't understand the nature of your question. But let me ask you this - do you believe that we are saved by works or that we contribute in any way toward our salvation?



We are certainly saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. But... do you deny that we are to CHOOSE whom we will serve? To say we have no choice is to say God made the choice for us. If God made the choice for us, we are then no better than a a computer, doing only that which it is programed to be.

How is it we can choose this day whom we will serv if we have no choice to make?

How can we choose to do good and not evil, if we have no choice to make? And yet the passages i present to you tell us to just those things.

God told Cain IF he would only choose to do good he would be accepted... this was no lie my friend




Now back to my questions that you didnt understand


Scripture tells us every man is given a measure of faith. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did gave every man that measure of faith? What is it's purrpose?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse. So what purpose does this light instilled in every man serve?

[DaRev]

We are certainly saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God. But... do you deny that we are to CHOOSE whom we will serve? To say we have no choice is to say God made the choice for us. If God made the choice for us, we are then no better than a a computer, doing only that which it is programed to be.

How is it we can choose this day whom we will serv if we have no choice to make?

How can we choose to do good and not evil, if we have no choice to make? And yet the passages i present to you tell us to just those things.

God told Cain IF he would only choose to do good he would be accepted... this was no lie my friend




Now back to my questions that you didnt understand


Scripture tells us every man is given a measure of faith. Do you believe that God gave to every man a measure of faith? If so why would you say He did gave every man that measure of faith? What is it's purrpose?

Also, John tells us that Jesus IS that true light which lights the heart of every man that entereth the world. Romans 1 added to this also tells us that even nature itself teaches us that there is a God so that we are without excuse. So what purpose does this light instilled in every man serve?

Scripture tells us in many places that we cannot do good on our own. The good that we do is moved in us by God through the Holy Spirit. The only "choice" we have is to do evil. Our will is bound by the sinful nature. We cannot "choose" God. He has chosen us. The good that we do is the result of God's choosing us first (the fruits of faith). We love because God first loved us.

Our faith is a free gift of God. We do not choose it, we do not earn it, we do not ask for it because we in our sinful nature cannot. The gift is given to all. We either acknowledge it through the hearing of the Gospel and our response (the fruit of faith), which is totally passive on our part, or we reject it which is totally active on our part.

[John1and1]

Scripture tells us in many places that we cannot do good on our own. The good that we do is moved in us by God through the Holy Spirit. The only "choice" we have is to do evil. Our will is bound by the sinful nature. We cannot "choose" God. He has chosen us. The good that we do is the result of God's choosing us first (the fruits of faith). We love because God first loved us.

Our faith is a free gift of God. We do not choose it, we do not earn it, we do not ask for it because we in our sinful nature cannot. The gift is given to all. We either acknowledge it through the hearing of the Gospel and our response (the fruit of faith), which is totally passive on our part, or we reject it which is totally active on our part.
The scriptures tell us many things my friend. Do they not also tell us to choose this day whom we will serve? If we are told to choose, how can we say we do not have the power to choose?

[A New Dawn]

New Dawn lol

There ARE NO scriptures that disagree with my view lol...

Now i DO note that some people choose to believe one set of passages and disregard the others. Do you disregard the passages which ALL CLAIM we have a choice in the matter?

Since scripture interprets scripture (as has already been pointed out), all scriptures must be taken in light of all other scriptures. Yes, some scriptures speak about a choice. But many others speak about the fact that there is no choice, so one must look at the context of the scripture to understand what is being talked about, to whom it was said, etc. (as was already pointed out, also). You just can't take a scripture out of it's context and apply it to anything you want to apply it to. When you ignore these points, that is how we get these bizarro cultic theologies.

Now, drstevej spoke to the context of the 2 Peter 3 scripture that you posted. Can you speak to the scripture given the context of it?

No my view must conform to ALL scripture. I conform my doctrine to EVERY word of God not pick the half i want to believe.

If you doubt me throw a scripture my way by all means, and then tell me too if you belive the passages i posted above, aLL showing we have a choice.