Capital punishment...

[Hishandmaiden]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!

[GreenMunchkin]

You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)

Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin (Psalm 51:1-2)

You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit (Job 10:12)

Am as against capital punishment as I am against abortion and war (legal or otherwise), because life isn't ours to take. That's up to God, and God alone.

In the Western world, we judge people in Muslim countries for the way they treat people... their punishments. The stonings, and hangings, etc. But we're no different when we inject people with poison. Both are as wrong as the other, as they're essentially the same thing. But our version is more "civilized". Except, it's so not.

[Colabomb]

John 8

Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, they said to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?’ They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, ‘Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, ‘Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ She said, ‘No one, sir.’ And Jesus said, ‘Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again.’

[MrJim]

You shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)


Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them

NOW let's see: Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy. OK so God said don't murder, but then told the Israelites to utterly destroy some people later on. Funny how these OT things work out.

I was anabaptist for a lot of years, I'll outdog ya anyday on the 'nonresistant' (or pacifist if you prefer) passages of scripture. When approaching this topic you do best working from a NT basis and toss that OT stuff to history~it doesn't do much to aid your argument.

Being a pacifist/nonresistant on the captial punishment/war issue is dandy, but know that government doesn't run by that rule as God as said:

Rom13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

[GreenMunchkin]

Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them

NOW let's see: Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy. OK so God said don't murder, but then told the Israelites to utterly destroy some people later on. Funny how these OT things work out.

I was anabaptist for a lot of years, I'll outdog ya anyday on the 'nonresistant' (or pacifist if you prefer) passages of scripture. When approaching this topic you do best working from a NT basis and toss that OT stuff to history~it doesn't do much to aid your argument.

Being a pacifist/nonresistant on the captial punishment/war issue is dandy, but know that government doesn't run by that rule as God as said:

Rom13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.Fair enough :) This really isn't an issue am gonna debate or "argue", though, so we'll just agree to disagree, if that's ok?

God bless you, bro :hug:

[Izdaari]

Capital punishment was authorized in the Mosaic Law, and so far as I am aware, there is nothing in the New Covenant that changes that.

I'm not against capital punishment in principle, but I'm uneasy about it in practice since the false conviction rate is too high. I would want as near absolute certainty as possible (something like having led police to the body plus a DNA match) on a conviction before I could approve an execution.

[Albion]

And the conservative answer (with thanks to GreenMunchkin for stating the liberal one for comparison sake):

The Christian church has never held that capital punishment is wrong. Check your history. With the exception of a few Medieval cults such as the Cathars and a handful of modern Protestant churches of small membership, the Church has never held capital punishment to be wrong. I'd say that that's obvious since Christianity animated almost every Western nation until recently and no governmental unit in the world outlawed the practice until the mid-19th century, so there should be no uncertainty about this.

HOWEVER, there is plenty of room for us to discuss how and when it is applied, what methods are right to use, and if current practice is in need of change.

Any thoughts along those lines, guys?

[MrJim]

And the conservative answer (with thanks to GreenMunchkin for stating the liberal one for comparison sake)

...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment, though generally will not interfere with the gov't right to do so.

The Christian church has never held that capital punishment is wrong. Check your history. With the exception of a few Medieval cults such as the Cathars and a handful of modern Protestant churches of small membership, the Church has never held capital punishment to be wrong. I'd say that that's obvious since Christianity animated almost every Western nation until recently and no governmental unit in the world outlawed the practice until the mid-19th century, so there should be no uncertainty about this.

HOWEVER, there is plenty of room for us to discuss how and when it is applied, what methods are right to use, and if current practice is in need of change.

Any thoughts along those lines, guys?

I still hold to the old mennonite position. I do not deny the gov't right to do so but would not seek it for one if I had the decision to make, even if it was one that murdered one of my loved ones. That the link between church and state has been so close in those days of yesteryear does not so justify its existence as it does show that perhaps the church was too close to state (ooops, by anabaptist/baptist is showine:blush: ). That "christianity animated" western governments isn't really something to be proud of, considering the way things have turned out.

Again, a "conservative" forum is going to bring out these theological worldview differences, and this topic could devolve the same as the "women ordination" thing~that the only correct conservative POV has to be (fill in the blank). Unlike the liberal forum, where "truth is truth for you" and so there's no real arguing, conservatives are more staunch in their beliefs. Therefore the clash happens. A conservative catholic and a conservative anabaptist and a conservative calvinist really have little in common, except for the perceived common enemy (liberals).

[Albion]

...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment[/quote}

So on this subject, they are not conservative. There's nothing hard to understand with that. What matters is what the view of Christians historically has been, not whether a tiny group has distanced itself from that--and not even if they remain conservative on OTHER issues (which is true).


[quote]Again, a "conservative" forum is going to bring out these theological worldview differences, and this topic could devolve the same as the "women ordination" thing~that the only correct conservative POV has to be (fill in the blank).

In these two cases, that is correct. There is only one conservative answer for each of those issues. The liberal answer could be taken by an otherwise conservative person, yes. But this is not just he-said, she-said, the other guy-said. WE CAN KNOW THE ANSWER. What has the historic church said? Do we know what Christians did before the Mennonites appeared. Yes we do. Do we know what 99% of the world's Christians since the founding of the Mennonits believe on these issues? Yes. We certainly do and can prove it.

So the Conservative answer clear. It could, as I always say, be the WRONG answer, and you can argue that with my full support. But what is the Conservative answer is known.

Therefore the clash happens. A conservative catholic and a conservative anabaptist and a conservative calvinist really have little in common, except for the perceived common enemy (liberals).

As has been said before, an individual can be conservative generally and liberal on specific points. Also, many people label THEMSELVES as conservative without fully knowing what the word implies. It is to conserve, not to innovate.

[MrJim]

[quote=MrJim;36959626]...zing...

You will not find a more conservative Christian group than plain mennonites yet they are against capital punishment[/quote}

So on this subject, they are not conservative. There's nothing hard to understand with that. What matters is what the view of Christians historically has been, not whether a tiny group has distanced itself from that--and not even if they remain conservative on OTHER issues (which is true).




In these two cases, that is correct. There is only one conservative answer for each of those issues. The liberal answer could be taken by an otherwise conservative person, yes. But this is not just he-said, she-said, the other guy-said. WE CAN KNOW THE ANSWER. What has the historic church said? Do we know what Christians did before the Mennonites appeared. Yes we do. Do we know what 99% of the world's Christians since the founding of the Mennonits believe on these issues? Yes. We certainly do and can prove it.

So the Conservative answer clear. It could, as I always say, be the WRONG answer, and you can argue that with my full support. But what is the Conservative answer is known.



...and being in agreement about Capital Punishment. Yes, I know there are dissenters within each group. The churches however are in agreement and are not opposed to Capital Punishment.

OOOKay I can see where this is leading...I guess you can go ahead and write the book on correct conservative thought.

[Albion]

[quote=Albion;36960366]

OOOKay I can see where this is leading...I guess you can go ahead and write the book on correct conservative thought.

I'm only reporting it. The book was written long ago, although you speak as though the idea is whatever one wants to make of it. That would be like saying some Pacifists are against violence, but some others think that we should shoot it out. Or that some vegetarians think it a bad idea to eat meat--but that's just their POV. Other vegetarians eat meat and potatoes at every meal. Or that some Communists favor free enterprise.

My friend, some isms or sets of ideas are what they are.

[Jim47]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!


I ama firm believer in capital punishment and also believe it is what God wants as well.





Ro 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Ro 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
Ro 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Ro 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Ro 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
Ro 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Ro 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[Epiphoskei]

Capital punishment is a civil matter. Did Jesus give us instructions on how to create a state?

Scripture gives us numerous verses about the death penalty, giving the right of capital punishment to men - Romans 13, God's covenant with noah, and old testament verses describing righteous kings having criminals killed (David had the man who claimed to kill saul killed, and asked his son to have Joab killed after his own death) without negative comment. So it's apparent that man has been given that right, but the christian church has not.

And, though a government can do it, if a government doesn't want to use it, the Bible neither says it's unrighteous for doing so.

[Lisa0315]

I would think the death of One Innocent Man should be the example of why the Death Penalty should be abolished. Yes, He gave His life for us, but it still stands as an example of how people can be wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced.

Suggestion: Read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It is not a work of fiction as he usually writes, but a true story.

Lisa

[Jim47]

I would think the death of One Innocent Man should be the example of why the Death Penalty should be abolished. Yes, He gave His life for us, but it still stands as an example of how people can be wrongly accused and wrongly convicted and wrongly sentenced.

Suggestion: Read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It is not a work of fiction as he usually writes, but a true story.

Lisa



While I understand your reasoing, much if those mistakes are made because of the corrupt legal system we have, where lawyers make millons trying get law breakers off scott free. Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing.

[GreenMunchkin]

While I understand your reasoing, much if those mistakes are made because of the corrupt legal system we have, where lawyers make millons trying get law breakers off scott free. Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing. Hullo! :hug:

I get what you're saying, bro, but citing OJ as a reason to support capital punishment is a little like saying an apple that's gone brown is a reason to stick to beef.

It's a travesty that he got off, but he should have been sent to prison for life. That would have been a suitable punishment.

And about people who have been brutally raped and murdered... it's been proven time and time again that restorative justice is actually more effective than the threat of capital punishment. Killing a murderer is fighting fire with fire, and we're commanded to turn the other cheek.

A judge is just a man who sits in a chair; a jury is just a collection of people. If they send a person to their death, they've then become murderers, also, haven't they?

What's the difference between killing someone directly, and using the state to kill them - the state just becomes the middle man.

Life in prison ought to mean *life* - that's more of a punishment, anyway. And giving the victims/family of the victim the option of restorative justice can be a healing thing for everyone. The focus should be on healing rather than punishment you can't go back on.

[Epiphoskei]

Just look at OJ, do you call that justice.

What about the millions of people who have been brutally murdered, raped and beaten. Do they stand for nothing.

What with more and more people believing there is only oblivion after death, thus they do not fear it so much, and more and more death-row inmates trying to get their sentances carried out sooner simply to escape prison, it appers that the greater punishment in the minds of so many isn't to die, but to be forced to live.

And in the end, they die anyway and recieve their due justice from the Lord.

[Albion]

I hate to be the fly in the ointment again by asking why on "CONSERVATIVE Christians" forum, the debate is--as I knew it would be--between equally adamant, opposite POVs.


This debate could as well be taking place on any of a half dozen other forums, but here where Conservative principles supposedly are our reason for being...

...no one dropping in could tell it from a Liberal or General Theology forum if they neglected to read the forum's title.


Sooooooo,


anticipating the obvious--that if I dare to mention that Conservative principles are what we are supposed to be about, not Conservative and Liberal equally, duking it out for post after post--I will be told in reply by some of you, "Who are you to say what conservative is?,"


I will only ask everyone this: What has the Christian church said about it?


Knowing that there are many different denominations, etc. the question can be refined to:


What has been the standard position of Christianity through all the years, taking account of as many branches or denominations as possible in your thinking and accounting for the size of each?


The answer is the Conservative Christian position, by definition, like it or not.

[Colabomb]

This forum was intended for people who take the Scriptures and the Creeds seriously. Who see the Scriptures as the Inspired Word of God and the Creed as the most perfect summary of our faith, and not documents of man.

The conservative aspect of the forum is that we assume in debate that Scripture is True, and that the Creed is True. How they are interpreted is up for debate.

Example.

I don't think that is what paul really meant = Acceptable

Paul was a mysogenist jerk and he put his own cultural beliefs down= Not Acceptable as it puts into question the inspiration of the Scripture.

[Albion]

And I think that everyone posting here does take the Bible seriously. That alone, however, doesn't make them "Conservative" Christians. Perhaps the problem with the forum is one that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far--the title was a mistake. Based upon your observation (and really good example you gave, BTW) it might better be titled "BIble Believing Christians" or something like that. Or join with the Fundamentalists, one leader of whom has asked that we do just that.

I might add that if any ol' interpretation is as acceptable as any other (as you said, "up for debate"), Mormons, Unitarians, and Jehovah's Witnesses are right at home here. Somehow I don't that this is what you had in mind. But I'll let you answer that without trying to answer it for you. Maybe you will say "Yes, of course, they are "Conservative Christians."

[Sothron]

I believe in capital punishment both as a deterrent and as a fair consequence for your earthly actions. God may (and will if asked) forgive for a sin that great but that does not preclude the sinner from receiving on Earth the justice their crimes call for.

[Colabomb]

Note the fact that the Creeds are also enforced.

And no. We are not fundementalists. There are significant differences.

For example a catholic is welcomed here, a Catholic in a fundie board would be torn up.

[Albion]

Note the fact that the Creeds are also enforced.

And no. We are not fundementalists. There are significant differences.

For example a catholic is welcomed here, a Catholic in a fundie board would be torn up.

All of that is based upon certain assumptions that I respectfully say are true only in theory.

First, there is no unanimity here. Topics often draw almost equal postings pro and con. So the question becomes just this--are the differences there greater? I would say no.

Second, there is nothing here that is "enforced." But even if the Nicene Creed were to be enforced, that would disallow almost nothing but a rejection of the Trinity.

No matter what the Wiki says at any moment, there are plenty of people who are members claiming to be conservative who do not hesitate to argue, not just mention, but argue for the truth of the liberal POV. No one does anything about it, Wiki or not, because the prevailing attitude is "there are many definitions of 'conservative'; each person decides for himself," as if there were no rules.

[Colabomb]

Second, there is nothing here that is "enforced." But even if the Nicene Creed were to be enforced, that would disallow almost nothing but a rejection of the Trinity.




And Resurrection denial, and Virgin Birth Denial, and Crucifixion Denial, And Messianic Denial.......

[Albion]

And Resurrection denial, and Virgin Birth Denial, and Crucifixion Denial, And Messianic Denial.......

The Creed doesn't say that he took up his body again, just that he rose again from the dead. "Virgin" has been translated as "young woman" by various theorists and some Bible versions. And so on. We as conservatives denounce such things as contrary to the scriptural basis, but the words themselves are redefined all the time by others. Come on, Cola, you know that an abstract interpretation has already been placed on most articles in the Creed by some Christians just as they've done with the Articles of Religion.

But on the bigger point, no one knows until it happens, but there's been an invitation to join the fundamentalists and if not everyone fits in, that's no different from here.

[meh]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!


I try to be against the dealth penalty.

Exodus 20:13: You shall not murder.

Repaying murder or crime with another murder solves nothing. It just makes people (sometimes me, I admit) feel better to see a murderer killed himself or herself.

Romans 12:19:
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Vengeance is the Lord's. Only His justice is perfect. We can try with a court system, but let me tell you, when my nephew was beaten severely last summer, there was no justice that could have been satisfactory. My first instinct was to kill the guy who did it. What would that accomplish? Nothing. I would have just winded up in prison as well, my nephew would still have been injured. Nothing would change that. The outcome of the case, though heavily in favor of "our" side still didn't make me feel better. Nothing would have because it still happened. That the guy is on probation for forever and paid my nephew a lot of money made no one feel better. Seeing him die wouldn't have changed anything, either. Because it all still happened. A nice kid was attacked by a thug. What justice could there be to erase that or change it? None in this world it seems to me.


Matthew 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

We should remember those in prison. They are a captive audience, so to speak. Get in there and evangelize.


I will also say this: when I see parents of murdered children on TV who want the death penalty for the offender, I pass no judgment on them. They know a pain I will never know and could never know.

On another note, my state had to actually put a stop to carrying out the death penalty because they found so many innocent men on death row. One innocent killed is too many.

The only fair thing I can come up with is to abolish the death penalty and quit making it so a life sentence actually means you come up for parole in 30 years. Make a life sentence actually mean life sentence, and I don't see much reason for the death penalty. They can serve their time, be witnessed to, and have a life with purpose even in prison. If they are dead, chances are gone and if they were innocent, justice wasn't served for anyone.

[Tahillah]

Very good post meh!
I agree with it.

And I would like to add, if the convicted person is not a Christian we should give him/her the opportunity to become one instead of killing them.
Jesus did away with "an eye for an eye" and said "turn the other cheek"
I see the death penalty as against Jesus' teaching. How is murder of a guilty person ("an eye for an eye") in keeping with Jesus (turn the other cheek)?

We need to turn the other cheek (forgive and give another chance).
While we also need to protect innocent people from possible harm. That is easily done with incarceration.

[Jim47]

Hullo! :hug:

I get what you're saying, bro, but citing OJ as a reason to support capital punishment is a little like saying an apple that's gone brown is a reason to stick to beef.

It's a travesty that he got off, but he should have been sent to prison for life. That would have been a suitable punishment.

And about people who have been brutally raped and murdered... it's been proven time and time again that restorative justice is actually more effective than the threat of capital punishment. Killing a murderer is fighting fire with fire, and we're commanded to turn the other cheek.

A judge is just a man who sits in a chair; a jury is just a collection of people. If they send a person to their death, they've then become murderers, also, haven't they?

What's the difference between killing someone directly, and using the state to kill them - the state just becomes the middle man.

Life in prison ought to mean *life* - that's more of a punishment, anyway. And giving the victims/family of the victim the option of restorative justice can be a healing thing for everyone. The focus should be on healing rather than punishment you can't go back on.



You do realize that 90% of people who commit crimes are never caught and 70% of those who are sent to prision will again commit the same or worse crime?

I fail to see your reasoning. Just because we have done away with justice does not mean that it isn't more effective. For one thing, if we punish those who have commited capital offences with the death penality we won't have them committing crimes again will we? :eek:

[Ishida]

Against. Murder dosen't make murder right. I think our state is with sin, so it can't throw stones. + a point of bringing those who are in prison to Christ, think of the good that will bring...or could in the case of the executed..

[Voegelin]

And I think that everyone posting here does take the Bible seriously. That alone, however, doesn't make them "Conservative" Christians. Perhaps the problem with the forum is one that I don't think anyone has mentioned so far--the title was a mistake. Based upon your observation (and really good example you gave, BTW) it might better be titled "BIble Believing Christians" or something like that. Or join with the Fundamentalists, one leader of whom has asked that we do just that.

I might add that if any ol' interpretation is as acceptable as any other (as you said, "up for debate"), Mormons, Unitarians, and Jehovah's Witnesses are right at home here. Somehow I don't that this is what you had in mind. But I'll let you answer that without trying to answer it for you. Maybe you will say "Yes, of course, they are "Conservative Christians."

I agree. The title was a mistake. How many conservative Christians do you know who catagorically oppose both the death penalty and war? Not many. Not today and not historically. Yet it is being promoted here. Perhaps that is why we see the repeated request to quote scripture for every position taken. Select this and that, ignore this and that and one can promote either side--including the most liberal side--of many issues. Traditional conservative Christian positions can be and are being opposed in the name of conservative Christianity.

I am not saying anyone is being disingenuous. But when I see, time after time, liberal positions on the death penalty, war, separation of church and state (Christians should stay out of politics) promoted, I do wonder.

Demanding scripture for everything also puts to one side much of the teaching, as I'm sure you know, of the largest church in Christendom--the Catholic church. The majesterium wasn't created ex nihilo, it comes from Scripture. It is conservative. On the death penalty it gives a very nuanced and useful guide (OK if society needs it to defend its very existence; not OK if, as in the case in most countries, it does not). It has a doctrine of just war. Right there we have half the Christians in the world, conservatives if they follow the catechism, who do not hold views being promoted--vigorously--in a "conservative" Christian forum. Add the Protesants who hold similiar or less liberal views and an overwhelming majority of Christians, not just conservative Christians, do not agree with the "No war, no death penalty ever" argument promoted on this thread.

[Gregged]

Against.

In the Word where it says a life for a life etc, the nation of Israel was under God. There were ways which God showed the offender. There wasn't pressure on police to come up with someone. There were no scapegoats etc. God was in control and moved with the people, or through the Judges.

Today, no nation is under (the true) God - despite what some ;) may think because of what's on their money, or pledge. There are false convictions. There are judges and a criminal system which is not in line with God's way.

And what happened to the Biblical leaving room for God's judgement - that it's His to repay? Or mercy triumphing over judgement? I think God said those things because He knew the way the world was going.

[Jim47]

No where in scripture does it say to not punish criminals, in fact is says we are to punish them and the verse I quoted before proves that.

[JimfromOhio]

What do you guys and girls think about it?

1) Quote scriptures, please
2) State your views, it is all right to differ in opinions but please do not attack the person.
3) Only people who can take different viewpoints participate.

I want to find basically the scripture for your differing views to aid me in my consideration of what my stand on this will be.

Mod, close the thread if it gets too hot!

Thanks all!

Biblically, I support the death penalty if a person clearly did the crime of killing another person (without any reasonable doubt). Studying government biblically for many years, I have learned so much in each topic in the bible.

God gave the governments the sword and He gave them the sword to use. This is to keep goodness prevalent and evil subdued. If you will read I Peter 2:14, “Governors we are to be subject to as under them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers.” That’s the law enforcement. They are sent for the punishment of evildoers. They do not bear the sword in vain.

Romans 13:4
In KJV: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

NIV: For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

In the New Testament, Matthew 26:52 and Acts 25:11, the sword means kill. The "Sword" was not used to spank someone, but to kill them. Jesus was referring sword as "shall perish with the sword." Perish means death.

In Greek for SWORD, it is ajpovllumi , Strong's # 622, the translated word for greek is Apollumi. Perish is defined as to destroy; to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin; render useless; to kill; to declare that one must be put to death; metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell; to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed.

So, when Paul was using the word "Sword" in Romans 13 means death. In Genesis 9:6: “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made He man.” Because of the sanctity of man, because he is created in the image of God, God instituted a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc. Murder is a crime against God in whose image man is made—it defiles God—so capital punishment is required. God instituted capital punishment. Therefore, ONLY GOD can remove the capital punishment.

[JimfromOhio]

Against.

In the Word where it says a life for a life etc, the nation of Israel was under God. There were ways which God showed the offender. There wasn't pressure on police to come up with someone. There were no scapegoats etc. God was in control and moved with the people, or through the Judges.

Today, no nation is under (the true) God - despite what some ;) may think because of what's on their money, or pledge. There are false convictions. There are judges and a criminal system which is not in line with God's way.

And what happened to the Biblical leaving room for God's judgement - that it's His to repay? Or mercy triumphing over judgement? I think God said those things because He knew the way the world was going.

Governments are God's ordained. Jesus taught that the government should work in harmony with the church and should recognize its sovereignty in spiritual matters (Matt. 22:21). You may say, “Well, that’s a different government than today.” Yeah, you know whose government that was? Nero’s! Nero’s government. Even though the Government is God-ordained but human (sinners) are leading governments are also guilty of injustice however Christians should not stop working for justice or cease to be concerned about human rights.

According to Scriptures government is ordained of God. Government, as such, is ordained of God. It has been corrupted, obviously, but the institution is still ordained of God. Government represents God’s rule in the world. It is God’s way of ordering society. Even the worst of governments around the world, still part of God's ordained government, simply to secure the good and punish the evil.(Rom. 13:1–7) It is an easy topic but NOT easy to accept the fact. Therefore, God allowed fallible man to run for government such as Hitler, Stalin, Rwanda and others. God is the one who began the process of government. Back in the Book of Genesis, God gave the right of capital punishment to government.

This is from PAUL:
Romans 13:3 says: "Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you." Verse 4 says: "if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Verse 5 says: Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

This is from PETER
1 Peter 2:13-17 Verse 14 says: "submit to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right." Verse 15-16 says: "For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God."

There is a balance view of respecting God's creation and how we ought to protect the innocents who would be a victim of future crimes that may kill them.

If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.

[Jim47]

Great posts Jim :thumbsup:

[Gregged]

Governments are God's ordained. Jesus taught that the government should work in harmony with the church and should recognize its sovereignty in spiritual matters (Matt. 22:21). You may say, “Well, that’s a different government than today.” Yeah, you know whose government that was? Nero’s! Nero’s government. Even though the Government is God-ordained but human (sinners) are leading governments are also guilty of injustice however Christians should not stop working for justice or cease to be concerned about human rights.

According to Scriptures government is ordained of God. Government, as such, is ordained of God. It has been corrupted, obviously, but the institution is still ordained of God. Government represents God’s rule in the world. It is God’s way of ordering society. Even the worst of governments around the world, still part of God's ordained government, simply to secure the good and punish the evil.(Rom. 13:1–7) It is an easy topic but NOT easy to accept the fact. Therefore, God allowed fallible man to run for government such as Hitler, Stalin, Rwanda and others. God is the one who began the process of government. Back in the Book of Genesis, God gave the right of capital punishment to government.

This is from PAUL:
Romans 13:3 says: "Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you." Verse 4 says: "if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Verse 5 says: Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

This is from PETER
1 Peter 2:13-17 Verse 14 says: "submit to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right." Verse 15-16 says: "For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God."

There is a balance view of respecting God's creation and how we ought to protect the innocents who would be a victim of future crimes that may kill them.

If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.



Jim, I would have no problem with capital punishment when things are done God's way, and when there is not the injustice and the scapegoats, or pressure to pin a crime on somebody. Jim47 cited OJ. You know that people with money buy the best lawyers / connections etc.

As has been said, one innocent death is one too many.

I don't agree that government represents God's rule in the world. Certainly no government is a mirror of how God would rule. If it was reflective of God, why are the so many different types of government, at conflict with each other? God is not in conflict with Himself! And Heaven will not be (in your case) a capitalist democracy! God's will was for the earth to be ruled by Him, for mankind to follow Him as our King. Not for us to reject Him / want other "kings". The earth would be much different than with today's government!

Also, as you say - the Bible says that our leaders are put in place by God. It's a little OT ;) but (just a thought) would you then say that nations, such as yours, are wrong for invading other countries because of their governments?

[Gregged]

Therefore, God allowed fallible man to run for government such as Hitler, Stalin, Rwanda and others.


God allows people to rise to power for many reasons which are for a completely different thread :) But His Kingdom still advances, and His glory - whether in the past, present or future will be known through them.

[JimfromOhio]

Jim, I would have no problem with capital punishment when things are done God's way, and when there is not the injustice and the scapegoats, or pressure to pin a crime on somebody. Jim47 cited OJ. You know that people with money buy the best lawyers / connections etc.

As has been said, one innocent death is one too many.

I don't agree that government represents God's rule in the world. Certainly no government is a mirror of how God would rule. If it was reflective of God, why are the so many different types of government, at conflict with each other? God is not in conflict with Himself! And Heaven will not be (in your case) a capitalist democracy! God's will was for the earth to be ruled by Him, for mankind to follow Him as our King. Not for us to reject Him / want other "kings". The earth would be much different than with today's government!

Also, as you say - the Bible says that our leaders are put in place by God. It's a little OT ;) but (just a thought) would you then say that nations, such as yours, are wrong for invading other countries because of their governments?

This is directly from the Word of God. God governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

Jeremiah 10:23 [ Jeremiah's Prayer ] I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Reading the book of Esther show how God controls history through providence. There isn't a miracle in the book and the name of God isn't mentioned but at the same time, without anyone realizing that God is always in control of every single event in this world. The king mentioned in Esther favored Esther and Mordecai, spared all the Jewish people, made Mordecai the Prime Minister and hanged Haman on the gallows he build himself for the Jewish people and preserved the nation Israel. Hadassah, "myrtle" in Hebrew (Esther 2:7), or Esther, "star" or "Ishtar" in Persian. One of the greatest and most essential attributes of God is His sovereignty, God rules over all things and controls all things. God also uses providence to accomplish His will in the world. You won't find the word providence in the Bible. It's like the word Trinity. God directs and uses events to accomplish His own Will which meant: "the providence of God."

God's divine intervention BOTH WAYS. All circumstances can turn people to God. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them."

Romans 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden

Throughout the Bible, I can see hundreds and much more of God's divine intervention. One example. Corrie ten Boom was schedule to die in Nazi Camp like the rest of family did, but came out of Nazi prison alive due to clerical error through God's divine intervention. Through Corrie ten Boom, God was glorified through Corrie's ministry through many years until the day she died. Her ministry is still alive even though she is no longer with us physically but she is in heaven.

More examples:
Jonah in flight from the will of God got swallowed by the whale.

Satan sought to kill Christ in the slaughter of the babies by Herod but God had Mary & Joseph moved elsewhere. Satan tried to stop Christ from growing up. If he could kill that baby while He was still a baby, Christ could never proclaim his Messiahship. God allowed other babies to die except for ONE.

Satan tried to have Peter try to keep Jesus from the cross but God determined that Jesus is to die on the Cross. In Matthew 16, Peter says, “Lord, don’t you do that! Don’t go to the cross!” and Jesus knew the source and said, “Get thee behind me, Satan.” Satan knew the power of the Cross and the Death Penalty by the Government which was established by God. "The authorities that exist have been established by God" (see Romans 13). How did God know that the Roman Government will use the "Cross" for their death penalty?

Satan used Judas and the Jewish leaders to kill Jesus. Satan was hoping that the Jewish people would STONE Jesus to death based on the Jewish Law and Custom. But the Jewish leaders were smart enough not to take the law into their hands and asked the Roman Government to crucify Christ.

Another good example is Pharaoh. Satan have been using Pharaoh to persecute Jewish people for years. In Exodus 9:16 "But I (God) have raised you (Pharaoh) up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Paul confirmed this in Romans 9:17 "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: 'I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' " God will allow many things to happen as long as they don't interfere His will and plans. God will allow Satan deceive people as God allowed Satan afflict Job. God will allow a drinker get drunk and drive... if this driver messed up and crashes, hit Christians, Christians were not at fault, neither was God's but the person who chose to drink alcohol. Over the years, I have seen God's interventions that I thought they surely could happened but didn't since God had another plan. Everything that happens in our lives (including trials) somehow fits into the plan of God.

I simply trust God in all government matters than I trust human government. Whatever happens, God allows thing to happen for a good reason.

[JimfromOhio]

God allows people to rise to power for many reasons which are for a completely different thread :) But His Kingdom still advances, and His glory - whether in the past, present or future will be known through them.

And what makes you think this is not connected? Anyway, I have explained in my last post.

[magdiel]

I do not need to read the thread, but I did read this page.

I am against capital (killing) punishment. There is no reason when we can keep a dangerous person behind bars so they never harm another person.
If in prison they harm another inmate then there is alway a way to keep them from other inmates.

Why kill a person and deny them the time to repent and turn to the Lord, even if it takes 50 years?

If we commit one sin we are guilty of them all.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Does God give anyone Capital Punishment (kill you) for a sin. He gives mercy.
I am not against punishment just against revenge.
Everyone should get a chance to come to the Lord in repentance no matter the sin.
To deny that is wrong.

[JimfromOhio]

Great posts Jim :thumbsup:

Thanks :wave:

[Lisa0315]

What do we sinners deserve?

What did God give?

Now, apply this to every murderer and rapist out there, truly guilty of their crimes.

Did Jesus set an example for us or not?

Lisa

[magdiel]

What do we sinners deserve?

What did God give?

Now, apply this to every murderer and rapist out there, truly guilty of their crimes.

Did Jesus set an example for us or not?

Lisa
That is exactly right Lisa!

[Lisa0315]

That is exactly right Lisa!

Thanks!:hug:

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

What do we sinners deserve?

What did God give?

Now, apply this to every murderer and rapist out there, truly guilty of their crimes.

Did Jesus set an example for us or not?

Lisa

I understand what you are saying but I can play the logic against God's Word. We all can think of helping the criminals to avoid harsh punishment like death penalty. We often forget the victims of the cimes. The victims are aways invisibile in this situation. No one speaks for them. Especially children when sexual predators are out there abusing and killing kids for their sexual pleasures.

In the last 20 years, I have been seeing so much advocacy for the criminals and little advocacy for the victims. Our laws are so relaxed that they do not cause fear in the criminals' minds. Criminals usually do not have a conscience to respect other human beings.

My personal thought (with the help from the Holy Spirit on this): In over-all, I support the death penalty if a person clearly did the crime of killing another person (without doubt).

The main theme of this issue at hand really turned out to be taking the life of someone else. Another issue have been brought up was that governments can become corrupt. Let me go through the list of different theories and reasonings.

Social Argument: "Capital punishment does not restrain crime."

Penal Argument: "Capital punishment does not rehabilitate the criminal."

Moral Argument: "Capital punishment does not reflect love."

Pacifist Argument: "Capital punishment does not rectify evil. Two wrongs don’t make a right."

Christian Argument: "Capital punishment could snatch sinners out of heaven before salvation. Our efforts should be on salvation, not condemnation."

Christian with Human Reasoning Argument: We humans don't exactly have a sterling record of being fair when it comes to the administration of justice, unlike God. God did say "thou shall not kill" so that means governments should not kill.

Biblical Argument: Capital punishment as a fact of life, the consequences of a criminal act which is one of God's eternal laws that really there is no question about. A man condemned to die on death row is there because of his own actions. He murdered and it is simply coming back to him. God told Moses, "I AM, that I AM." God said "Thou shall not MURDER" (Notice that He did NOT say "thou shall not kill").
Exodus 20:13
NIV: You shall not murder.
NLT: Do not murder.
KJV: Thou shalt not kill (in hebrew "murder").
ESV: You shall not murder
NKJV: You shall not murder

Hebrew Word for MURDER: Xcr Transliterated Word: ratsach The Hebrew word for MURDER covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence, to murder, slay. (Qal) to murder, slay, premeditated, accidental as avenger, slayer, kill (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle)(subst). "We reap what we sow" The scripture teaches, if nothing else, that we are all accountable for our own actions. Sow love, and love will be returned. If you want friendship, the bible says "show yourself friendly." Jesus told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. (I am sure you know what happened, it was when Peter cut off a soldier's ear).

I may be harsh but I am looking at the victims more than I am looking at the criminals. This is why we have victims ministry as well as prision ministry. There are more prision ministries than there are victims ministries. We are to bear one another (victimes) as Galatians 6:2 says "Bear one another's burdens"

[Lisa0315]

I understand what you are saying but I can play the logic against God's Word. We all can think of helping the criminals to avoid harsh punishment like death penalty. We often forget the victims of the cimes. The victims are aways invisibile in this situation. No one speaks for them. Especially children when sexual predators are out there abusing and killing kids for their sexual pleasures.

In the last 20 years, I have been seeing so much advocacy for the criminals and little advocacy for the victims. Our laws are so relaxed that they do not cause fear in the criminals' minds. Criminals usually do not have a conscience to respect other human beings.

My personal thought (with the help from the Holy Spirit on this): In over-all, I support the death penalty if a person clearly did the crime of killing another person (without doubt).

The main theme of this issue at hand really turned out to be taking the life of someone else. Another issue have been brought up was that governments can become corrupt. Let me go through the list of different theories and reasonings.

Social Argument: "Capital punishment does not restrain crime."

Penal Argument: "Capital punishment does not rehabilitate the criminal."

Moral Argument: "Capital punishment does not reflect love."

Pacifist Argument: "Capital punishment does not rectify evil. Two wrongs don’t make a right."

Christian Argument: "Capital punishment could snatch sinners out of heaven before salvation. Our efforts should be on salvation, not condemnation."

Christian with Human Reasoning Argument: We humans don't exactly have a sterling record of being fair when it comes to the administration of justice, unlike God. God did say "thou shall not kill" so that means governments should not kill.

Biblical Argument: Capital punishment as a fact of life, the consequences of a criminal act which is one of God's eternal laws that really there is no question about. A man condemned to die on death row is there because of his own actions. He murdered and it is simply coming back to him. God told Moses, "I AM, that I AM." God said "Thou shall not MURDER" (Notice that He did NOT say "thou shall not kill").
Exodus 20:13
NIV: You shall not murder.
NLT: Do not murder.
KJV: Thou shalt not kill (in hebrew "murder").
ESV: You shall not murder
NKJV: You shall not murder

Hebrew Word for MURDER: Xcr Transliterated Word: ratsach The Hebrew word for MURDER covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence, to murder, slay. (Qal) to murder, slay, premeditated, accidental as avenger, slayer, kill (intentional) (participle) (Niphal) to be slain (Piel) to murder, assassinate murderer, assassin (participle)(subst). "We reap what we sow" The scripture teaches, if nothing else, that we are all accountable for our own actions. Sow love, and love will be returned. If you want friendship, the bible says "show yourself friendly." Jesus told Peter that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. (I am sure you know what happened, it was when Peter cut off a soldier's ear).

I may be harsh but I am looking at the victims more than I am looking at the criminals. This is why we have victims ministry as well as prision ministry. There are more prision ministries than there are victims ministries. We are to bear one another (victimes) as Galatians 6:2 says "Bear one another's burdens"

You gave many arguments against death penalty, Jim, and one argument for. However, those IN GOVERNMENT who are for the death penalty do not care about the Bible. They care about the money that it costs to house a prisoner.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

You gave many arguments against death penalty, Jim, and one argument for. However, those IN GOVERNMENT who are for the death penalty do not care about the Bible. They care about the money that it costs to house a prisoner.

Lisa

That just a theory in some states who are for saving money by putting "life-sentence" criminals to death. But, still that does not change God's Word about the death penalty. One of the issues that I have learned about Moral Laws and Civil Laws when I was studying God's perspective in "governing" is abortion. An illustration: if a man hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury. According to the Old Testament law (Exodus 21:22-23), the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life (capital punishment). Politically, I don't agree with some of today's government laws because in relation to abortion, is part of Exodus 21:22-23 law, our authorities (United States) have made it legal to abort babies. The use of the word sword which stands for the government's God ordained right to inflict severe punishment, to include death Capital Punishment (see Matt 26:52; Acts 25:11).

[Gregged]

I agree Magdiel and Lisa :) We all deserve the death penalty. We've all broken God's law.




How often are we to forgive those that have wronged us? Or are we just to kill these people? There are some tragic stories heard every day on the news. There may be the murder of a Christian person - and you hear later the family has forgiven the murderer. It doesn't mean of course that there is no punishment. Surely, that's the better choice than demanding death, and going to watch the guilty person die (vengeance)?

My natural self may want to rid the earth of them. But then I God that there is nothing that God does not see. And I know He sees me too, so I am very grateful for His mercy, and for that mercy triumphing over judgement. In Psalms, David asks why the wicked prosper. But they don't... their judgment will come in due course.


I simply trust God in all government matters than I trust human government.
So do I!


Whatever happens, God allows thing to happen for a good reason.
...which is what I said. On other things, I hear your argument. I don't agree with it all, but accept your different views :)

Logging off for the night as my concentration is waning! I hope you understand this post!

Good night, and God bless all - whether you agree with me or not! ^_^ :wave:

[magdiel]

God bless you Gregged and thank you for your posts.

[Lisa0315]

That just a theory in some states who are for saving money by putting "life-sentence" criminals to death. But, still that does not change God's Word about the death penalty. One of the issues that I have learned about Moral Laws and Civil Laws when I was studying God's perspective in "governing" is abortion. An illustration: if a man hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury. According to the Old Testament law (Exodus 21:22-23), the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. If there is serious injury, you are to take life for life (capital punishment). Politically, I don't agree with some of today's government laws because in relation to abortion, is part of Exodus 21:22-23 law, our authorities (United States) have made it legal to abort babies. The use of the word sword which stands for the government's God ordained right to inflict severe punishment, to include death Capital Punishment (see Matt 26:52; Acts 25:11).

Well, here is the thing, Jim. I understand that it is an ordained right. However, that is not the same as a command.

While, we may have the authority, does it mean that we should use it? Jesus had the authority and the power to condemn every single one of us, but instead, He chose to bear our punishment for us. We, that know Him, are inprisoned here in this world, tried and tested, and rehabilitated into the next world. We will still be sinners when we die, but we will be sinners under grace.

A murderer will be a murderer whether dead or alive. He will be judged. I say that we should let God be the judge. Put them where no further harm can be caused, preach the gospel to them day and night, and let God be their final judge in HIS time, not ours.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

I agree Magdiel and Lisa :) We all deserve the death penalty. We've all broken God's law.




How often are we to forgive those that have wronged us? Or are we just to kill these people? There are some tragic stories heard every day on the news. There may be the murder of a Christian person - and you hear later the family has forgiven the murderer. It doesn't mean of course that there is no punishment. Surely, that's the better choice than demanding death, and going to watch the guilty person die (vengeance)?

My natural self may want to rid the earth of them. But then I God that there is nothing that God does not see. And I know He sees me too, so I am very grateful for His mercy, and for that mercy triumphing over judgement. In Psalms, David asks why the wicked prosper. But they don't... their judgment will come in due course.


[/COLOR][/FONT]
So do I!



...which is what I said. On other things, I hear your argument. I don't agree with it all, but accept your different views :)

Logging off for the night as my concentration is waning! I hope you understand this post!

Good night, and God bless all - whether you agree with me or not! ^_^ :wave:

Yes.. Jesus wants us to remember that even though believers have been forgiven for all sin--past, present, and future. Love hopes all things (1 Corinth 13). Love refuses to take human failure as final. With Christ in me, my human failures are never final. Love never keeps a record of wrongs. Love forgives and love is unable to think about them anymore. Forget the past and move on. Focus on the future as I focus on Christ at the same time. Romans 4:8 (also Psalms 32:2) "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him"

The incentive to peacemaking is love, but it degenerates into appeasement whenever justice is ignored. To forgive and to ask for forgiveness are both costly exercises. All authentic Christian peacemaking exhibits the love and justice—and so the pain—of the cross. John R. W. Stott

There are people who believe that God is a God of love and grace, yet not of justice.

The wisdom of God has ordained a way for the love of God to deliver us from the wrath of God without compromising the justice of God. John Piper

Christians should not stop working for justice or cease to be concerned about human rights in the administration of justice, unlike God. God did say "thou shall not kill" does not mean the "government should not kill" but rather individuals cannot "murder". We are to be concerned with social justice. The only area I am against the death penalty is when the government justice system leave room for reasonable doubt, when that happens, should be life in prison without possibility of parole. Many times, I try to avoid what my thoughts are because as a Christian, I should abide in God's Word rather than "reasoning" of why there should not be "death penalty".

Often, many Churches are allowing human reasoning get in the way of truth which is why we have "liberal Churches" rather than "Conservative Churches". I do believe very much in being a responsible Christian, however that responsibility is defined for the Christian by the Bible but no humanism reasoning. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective. We must be careful not to disobey God's Word to any church reasoning. I am going to abide God's clear message (without even trying to interpret to our own human reasoning) of God's Character. Of who He is and of who "I AM" He is. As God told Moses in Exodus 3:14, "I am who I am .

[JimfromOhio]

Well, here is the thing, Jim. I understand that it is an ordained right. However, that is not the same as a command.

While, we may have the authority, does it mean that we should use it? Jesus had the authority and the power to condemn every single one of us, but instead, He chose to bear our punishment for us. We, that know Him, are inprisoned here in this world, tried and tested, and rehabilitated into the next world. We will still be sinners when we die, but we will be sinners under grace.

A murderer will be a murderer whether dead or alive. He will be judged. I say that we should let God be the judge. Put them where no further harm can be caused, preach the gospel to them day and night, and let God be their final judge in HIS time, not ours.

Lisa

It looks like this is one area that we don't agree. ^_^

We have to remember, even Jesus submitted to the Roman government and allowed the Government to put Him to death on the Cross. Jesus taught that the government should work in harmony with the church and should recognize its sovereignty in spiritual matters (Matt. 22:21). God never commanded the governments to "spread the Gospels" because God dictated governments to "govern" the people and live in a civilized world. God commanded "CHRISTIANS" to spread the gospel.

[magdiel]

Jim,
what ever happened to Jesus saying
"if someone strikes your cheek offer him the other also" ?
what ever happened to Jesus saying
"if someone takes your cloak give him your garment also"
Luke 6:29 +

What ever happened to forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us???

And remember one that commits a sin, commits a sin against the whole law.

I don't care about long winded posts without Scripture, show your "stance" with the words of Jesus.
Show how Jesus would want the death penalty against someone that sinned, when He didn't demand it of you.

Even the most dispictable, corrupt sinner deserves a chance at forgiveness. To Jesus, that was me and you.

[Lisa0315]

It looks like this is one area that we don't agree. ^_^

We have to remember, even Jesus submitted to the Roman government and allowed the Government to put Him to death on the Cross. Jesus taught that the government should work in harmony with the church and should recognize its sovereignty in spiritual matters (Matt. 22:21). God never commanded the governments to "spread the Gospels" because God dictated governments to "govern" the people and live in a civilized world. God commanded "CHRISTIANS" to spread the gospel.

Right, and so we should submit to our govenrment also. Fortunately, we are not under the rule of a dictator. Instead, we the people, govern ourselves via representation and national elections. So, in saying that, Jesus had no say in the laws of the land. We do. It is a vital part of our government that the people contribute to. So, if we so choose to show mercy, we can elect representatives that will abolish the death penalty.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,
what ever happened to Jesus saying
"if someone strikes your cheek offer him the other also" ?
what ever happened to Jesus saying
"if someone takes your cloak give him your garment also"
Luke 6:29 +

What ever happened to forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us???

And remember one that commits a sin, commits a sin against the whole law.

I don't care about long winded posts without Scripture, show your "stance" with the words of Jesus.
Show how Jesus would want the death penalty against someone that sinned, when He didn't demand it of you.

Even the most dispictable, corrupt sinner deserves a chance at forgiveness. To Jesus, that was me and you.

Let me ask:

Did He say them to the "government"? No.....

Or did He say them to the people who were listening to them? Yes... to US

If the government's power to kill is a mercy, it's a mercy otherwise evil people dominate that man's worse enemy is man.

[JimfromOhio]

Right, and so we should submit to our govenrment also. Fortunately, we are not under the rule of a dictator. Instead, we the people, govern ourselves via representation and national elections. So, in saying that, Jesus had no say in the laws of the land. We do. It is a vital part of our government that the people contribute to. So, if we so choose to show mercy, we can elect representatives that will abolish the death penalty.

Lisa

I do believe very much in being a responsible Christian citizen. As good testimony to outsiders, Christians can work with non-Christians (& government) in attempting to promote justice and civic peace because it is good for all people, not just Christians (Galatians 6:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:15).

I will still not abolish the death penalty simply because God did not stop the death penalty. Christ died under the death penalty.

[~free~]

Christ died under the death penalty. Unjustly, I might add.

[JolieHeart]

God bless you all.

[JimfromOhio]

There is a "non-debating" thread poll regarding this topic. Please vote. Thanks.

Vote Here (http://www.christianforums.com/t5786954-how-many-of-us-conservative-christians-believe-in-capital-punishment.html)

[Voegelin]

Well, here is the thing, Jim. I understand that it is an ordained right. However, that is not the same as a command.

While, we may have the authority, does it mean that we should use it?

Lisa

Exactly. That one of the things which makes Christianity different. We are not obligated to put anyone to death. But we are not prohibited from doing so either. We are allowed to use reason and compassion to decide.

Because of this I cannot answer the poll as it is currently phrased.

[JimfromOhio]

So, what does conservative mean? Conservative Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on. I thought it meant the belief in the Bible as the written standard for Truth and the belief that God IS truth, and everything that is good, right, and true comes from HIM. Beliefs are biblical and doctrinally orthodox. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly. Do we accept the Bible as the Word of God, as the sole Authority in all matters of faith and practice, or do we not? It should be remembered that acceptance of the Bible as the sole authority for teaching comes not from rational arguments or human traditions. Its not the scriptures that are corrupted. Its a man's heart that is corrupted. Intelligence, reason, and choice. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority.

This is one of the reason I was debating "Capital Punishment". Its in the Bible but we are reasoning based on Christ's teaching that we should not have Capital Punishment. Nowhere in the Bible God removed Capital Punishment. If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.

[Lisa0315]

So, what does conservative mean? Conservative Christians believe what the Bible teaches in context which are the basics of what Christians believe and unite on. I thought it meant the belief in the Bible as the written standard for Truth and the belief that God IS truth, and everything that is good, right, and true comes from HIM. Beliefs are biblical and doctrinally orthodox. God's Word (the Bible) sometimes wounds us deeply and it is imperative because through the Bible, God speaks loudly. Do we accept the Bible as the Word of God, as the sole Authority in all matters of faith and practice, or do we not? It should be remembered that acceptance of the Bible as the sole authority for teaching comes not from rational arguments or human traditions. Its not the scriptures that are corrupted. Its a man's heart that is corrupted. Intelligence, reason, and choice. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority.

This is one of the reason I was debating "Capital Punishment". Its in the Bible but we are reasoning based on Christ's teaching that we should not have Capital Punishment. Nowhere in the Bible God removed Capital Punishment. If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.

Jim,
Jesus did not come to remove the law, but to fulfil it. Agreed. However, by His death, we are freed from the law and are now under grace. Grace! What a concept! A free gift of compassion and love. It does not remove judgement or justice, but fulfils it!

The death of Christ was ordained in Heaven not on Earth. To say that the death of Christ is justification of the death penalty is not logical because He was INNOCENT! He GAVE His life. It was not taken from Him.

I just read "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham. A NON-FICTION work by the author. Four men in one small town were put on death row because of the arrogance, bungling, and illegal actions of a prosecutor in the town of Ada, Oklahoma. The Innocent Project is an organization that was started because of all the wrongly convicted death row inmates in this country. Prosecutors have a political agenda to solve crimes in this country. Before we could justly apply Scripture as justification to using the death penalty, we must fix our system! There are too many innocent people who are put to death because of our system.

We are allowed under Scripture to put criminals to death. However, there should be no doubt of their guilt, and many times there is! That is the problem with systematically supporting the death penalty simply because it was not abolished by Jesus Christ. If our system was perfect, then, I suppose I could agree that there are some who are deserving of death. However, our system is NOT perfect.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Jim,
Jesus did not come to remove the law, but to fulfil it. Agreed. However, by His death, we are freed from the law and are now under grace. Grace! What a concept! A free gift of compassion and love. It does not remove judgement or justice, but fulfils it!

The death of Christ was ordained in Heaven not on Earth. To say that the death of Christ is justification of the death penalty is not logical because He was INNOCENT! He GAVE His life. It was not taken from Him.

I just read "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham. A NON-FICTION work by the author. Four men in one small town were put on death row because of the arrogance, bungling, and illegal actions of a prosecutor in the town of Ada, Oklahoma. The Innocent Project is an organization that was started because of all the wrongly convicted death row inmates in this country. Prosecutors have a political agenda to solve crimes in this country. Before we could justly apply Scripture as justification to using the death penalty, we must fix our system! There are too many innocent people who are put to death because of our system.

We are allowed under Scripture to put criminals to death. However, there should be no doubt of their guilt, and many times there is! That is the problem with systematically supporting the death penalty simply because it was not abolished by Jesus Christ. If our system was perfect, then, I suppose I could agree that there are some who are deserving of death. However, our system is NOT perfect.

Lisa
In reality, NOTHING in this world is perfect until we get into heaven. It was not perfect when God made the law and it is still not perfect after Christ's death.

Christ didn't preach to the Roman government nor any other governments how to forgive. Governments are to "govern", not forgive. We Christians are to love and forgive unconditionally according to Christ's teachings.

[Lisa0315]

In reality, NOTHING in this world is perfect until we get into heaven. It was not perfect when God made the law and it is still not perfect after Christ's death.

Christ didn't preach to the Roman government nor any other governments how to forgive. Governments are to "govern", not forgive. We Christians are to love and forgive unconditionally according to Christ's teachings.

Correct. However, comparing the Roman government to any democratic society is comparing apples and oranges. We, the People, ARE the government. Therefore, WE do have the ability to forge our laws under the commands of Christ to love one another and to spread the gospel.

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Correct. However, comparing the Roman government to any democratic society is comparing apples and oranges. We, the People, ARE the government. Therefore, WE do have the ability to forge our laws under the commands of Christ to love one another and to spread the gospel.

Lisa

That I agree.. AS people, not as government. I guess we will always disagree in this area. Its not a bad thing. My wife and I don't agree in this either. LOL

[Lisa0315]

That I agree.. AS people, not as government. I guess we will always disagree in this area. Its not a bad thing. My wife and I don't agree in this either. LOL

Good example of how people can disagree but still remain friends. True? :hug:

Lisa

[JimfromOhio]

Good example of how people can disagree but still remain friends. True? :hug:

Lisa

I agree... we can disagree and still remain friends. I enjoy healthy debates.... :thumbsup:

[irateional]

I hate to rehash what has probably already been posted, but assuming we divorce any religious connotations from the debate on the death penalty, it simply becomes ILLOGICAL.

Why?

Because for something to be wrong, we first have to establish why.

Murder is wrong because of one or both of these two reasons (the reason these ones matter is because they apply to all people regardless of situation)

a) It's wrong to take someone's life without their consent.
or
b) It's wrong to kill a person in any situation short of immediate self-defense.

Thus...what do we have when dealing with a murderer in prison?

If we kill them, we contradict both a and b. Afterall, only a few murderers have ever wanted to die. Secondly, if you hold to morality b, then it's still murder.

When you had in the high chances of prosecutorial misconduct, well, you can see why any sensible person is opposed.

You see, if a person is arrested as a murder suspect and convicted, but the evidence isn't very strong and it's highly unlikely they are guilty, the prosecutor is still going to try and get them tried. Because if a prosecutor loses cases, they aren't a prosecutor for long. As a result, innocent people DO end up on death row.

As if that isn't enough, think about this. In a lot of states, being for the death penalty is viewed as being, "tough on crime". Think about this. Do you really want politicians using the lives of people as stepping stones to power?

I urge any responsders to respond using logic and not emotion, as emotion has no place when dealing with such weighty matters.

[Izdaari]

Murder is wrong because of one or both of these two reasons (the reason these ones matter is because they apply to all people regardless of situation)

a) It's wrong to take someone's life without their consent.
or
b) It's wrong to kill a person in any situation short of immediate self-defense.
Your logic is commendable, but you missed it in your premises. I'm not sure why... the applicable principle of justice is well-known and venerable... indeed, it's as old as Moses, and was cited earlier in this thread.

I choose c) Murder is wrong because it is an initiation of force against an innocent victim. Lawful execution is retaliatory force against a guilty perpetrator, who forfeited his own right to life by taking another's life without just cause.

[irateional]

Your logic is commendable, but you missed it in your premises.

I choose c) Murder is wrong because it is an initiation of force against an innocent victim. Lawful execution is retaliatory force against a guilty perpetrator, who forfeited his own right to life by taking another's life without just cause.
Except that our justice system isn't built around retaliation. It's built around repaying a debt to the wronged and to society, and then to rehabilitate.

Bear in mind, I'm not disagreeing with the concept of self-defense. What I'm saying is that when you have a murderer in a jail cell, you are no longer simply defending yourself. It's more revenge. I think I'd rather see murderers spend the rest of their lives doing something to help society, whether that be stamping license plates or such. IT's still better than execution.

And once again, as other shave said, the issue of killing innocents is huge.

What is the point of killing 198 guilty men and 2 innocent? Is it not better to save the lives of all?

This isn't war. Innocent casualties aren't justified. No one is going to die because a murderer is sitting in his jail cell. Now when murderers get early release, that's wrong too, but that's a different issue entirely.

[Izdaari]

Except that our justice system isn't built around retaliation.
But it was once, and perhaps it should be again. Under the old theory, we didn't punish criminals to "pay a debt to society" or to rehabilitate them, but simply because they deserved it. That would be in line with Genesis 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:6;&version=31;). IMO it would also be in line with Natural Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Law). I find C.S. Lewis' argument for retaliatory justice and against the currently prevailing theories very persuasive: The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html).

And once again, as other shave said, the issue of killing innocents is huge.

What is the point of killing 198 guilty men and 2 innocent? Is it not better to save the lives of all?

This isn't war. Innocent casualties aren't justified. No one is going to die because a murderer is sitting in his jail cell. Now when murderers get early release, that's wrong too, but that's a different issue entirely.I agree that execution of innocents is unacceptable. That's the source of my own misgivings about the death penalty. That, and it isn't swift enough to be a good deterrent.

[irateional]

But it was once, and perhaps it should be again. Under the old theory, we didn't punish criminals to "pay a debt to society" or to rehabilitate them, but simply because they deserved it. That would be in line with Genesis 9:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209:6;&version=31;). IMO it would also be in line with Natural Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_Law). I find C.S. Lewis' argument for retaliatory justice and against the currently prevailing theories very persuasive: The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/lewiscs/humanitarian.html).

I agree that execution of innocents is unacceptable. That's the source of my own misgivings about the death penalty. That, and it isn't swift enough to be a good deterrent.
Obviously. And I like your point of view. And understand it Izdaari.

But in the end, I think, as humans, as sentient beings, as being unique from other animals, we can rise above a system based on someting like retaliation. I'd much rather see peace, love and joy. Because while on a small level, retribution might work as a good deterrent, on the larger levels, in the affairs of nations, it's only going to perpetuate violence.

Either way, God bless us all. We need it.

[Iosias]

Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

[Lisa0315]

Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

And for every verse you can give to support Capital Punishment, I can give one that is against it.

We understand that CP is in Scripture and even part of OT law. What is disputed is if we are required to use it.

Lisa

[Colabomb]

Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

You of all people my reformed Brother should know that we are no longer bound to the Law of Israel.

[Iosias]

You of all people my reformed Brother should know that we are no longer bound to the Law of Israel.

The nation of Israel did not exist until many hundreds of years after Genesis 9. The Law of Israel was a restatement of the Covenant given to Adam and which reflects the Moral Law of God.

Read Article 7 or our Articles of Religion:

The Old Testament is not contrary to the New; for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and man, being both God and man. Wherefore there are not to be heard which feign that the old fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the law given from God by Moses, as touching ceremonies and rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet, notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the commandments which are called moral.Now read Article 37 which states that "The Laws of the Realm may punish Christian men with death for heinous and grievous offences."

[JimfromOhio]

I hate to rehash what has probably already been posted, but assuming we divorce any religious connotations from the debate on the death penalty, it simply becomes ILLOGICAL.

Why?

Because for something to be wrong, we first have to establish why.

Murder is wrong because of one or both of these two reasons (the reason these ones matter is because they apply to all people regardless of situation)

a) It's wrong to take someone's life without their consent.
or
b) It's wrong to kill a person in any situation short of immediate self-defense.

Thus...what do we have when dealing with a murderer in prison?

If we kill them, we contradict both a and b. Afterall, only a few murderers have ever wanted to die. Secondly, if you hold to morality b, then it's still murder.

When you had in the high chances of prosecutorial misconduct, well, you can see why any sensible person is opposed.

You see, if a person is arrested as a murder suspect and convicted, but the evidence isn't very strong and it's highly unlikely they are guilty, the prosecutor is still going to try and get them tried. Because if a prosecutor loses cases, they aren't a prosecutor for long. As a result, innocent people DO end up on death row.

As if that isn't enough, think about this. In a lot of states, being for the death penalty is viewed as being, "tough on crime". Think about this. Do you really want politicians using the lives of people as stepping stones to power?

I urge any responsders to respond using logic and not emotion, as emotion has no place when dealing with such weighty matters.

Logical and reasoning are often the main sources of debates. This is called "begging the question in logic", the Latin name petitio principii, is an informal fallacy found in many attempts at logical arguments. An argument which begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way. Such an argument is valid in the sense in which logicians use that term, yet provides no reason at all to believe its conclusion. Intelligence, reason, and choice.

[JimfromOhio]

You of all people my reformed Brother should know that we are no longer bound to the Law of Israel.

Nowhere in the Bible God removed Capital Punishment. If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.

[MrJim]

Nowhere in the Bible God removed Capital Punishment. If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.

Do ya have a concise collected list of these unremoved "CIVIL" laws somewhere handy?


...oh yeah you're moving. Why didn't ya say somethin' sooner and we all coulda come over and helped? I'd a brought the lemonade:yum:

[irateional]

Nowhere in the Bible God removed Capital Punishment. If God says: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." I will abide His law. I have not seen on clear passage from the New Testament that He removed this CIVIL law.
Let's start stoning homosexuals, adultereres and other such criminals!

Oooh! Dont' forget the disobedient kids!

YOU CAN NOT USE THE BIBLE TO SET CIVIL LAW. Sorry folks. That doesn't fly in America. We're not a theocracy, and God willing, we will NEVER become one.

[HypnoToad]

Let's start stoning homosexuals, adultereres and other such criminals!

Oooh! Dont' forget the disobedient kids!

YOU CAN NOT USE THE BIBLE TO SET CIVIL LAW. Sorry folks. That doesn't fly in America. We're not a theocracy, and God willing, we will NEVER become one.
But now you're going back to the Mosaic Law. As already shown, the "whoever sheds the blood of man" law was given BEFORE the Mosaic Law, it is not part of it. Apples and oranges.

[Albion]

Let's start stoning homosexuals, adultereres and other such criminals!

Oooh! Dont' forget the disobedient kids!

Uh, the question concerned whether Capital Punishment can be used. Ever. You're the first to argue that maybe it should be used for all criminal offenses (and child rearing).;)

[Hentenza]

Hi All,

The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19); adultery (Leviticus 20:10); homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution (Leviticus 21:9) and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24-25), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, each and every sin we commit should result in the death penalty (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus said, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her" (John 8:7). This verse should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament Law. They truly did not care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God was the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The Apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-5).

So, basically, yes, God allows capital punishment. But at the same time, God does not always demand the death penalty when it is due. We must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word, therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard than He or be more kind than He. God has the highest standard of any being since He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

We should recognize that God has given the government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. We should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, it is the government’s God given right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

God Bless

[Albion]

Am as against capital punishment as I am against abortion and war (legal or otherwise), because life isn't ours to take. That's up to God, and God alone.
If that were so, I'm pretty sure he would never have allowed executions or wars as recorded in the Bible. And abortion is not the same as war or capital punishment if for no other reason than that the aborted child has not been charged with a crime, only with causing an inconvenience.


In the Western world, we judge people in Muslim countries for the way they treat people... their punishments. The stonings, and hangings, etc. But we're no different when we inject people with poison. Both are as wrong as the other, as they're essentially the same thing. But our version is more "civilized". Except, it's so not.


Of course there are significant differences. For one, we don't execute people without a lot of due process--quite unlike the societies you have compared us to. For another, we don't execute people except for the most heinous of crimes. For yet another, we recoil against the barbaric kinds of executions, kinds that are not legal anywhere in the Western World. Whether this is more "civilized" or not is debatable, but the differences are very notable.

[Lisa0315]

[/color]
If that were so, I'm pretty sure he would never have allowed executions or wars as recorded in the Bible. And abortion is not the same as war or capital punishment if for no other reason than that the aborted child has not been charged with a crime, only with causing an inconvenience.


[left][color=#008000]

Of course there are significant differences. For one, we don't execute people without a lot of due process--quite unlike the societies you have compared us to. For another, we don't execute people except for the most heinous of crimes. For yet another, we recoil against the barbaric kinds of executions, kinds that are not legal anywhere in the Western World. Whether this is more "civilized" or not is debatable, but the differences are very notable.

John Grisham just wrote a NON-FICTION book about 4 men who were put on death row wrongly. Two of them were executed. Two of them were released after 12 years in prison, and several near executions. He brings to light an organization in this country who have literally fought for thousands of death row inmates releases due to their innocence. It is called The Innocence Project. When you have thousands who are dying due to corruptness in our judicial system, then, it is time to call an end to Capital Punishment.

Lisa

[Albion]

John Grisham just wrote a NON-FICTION book about 4 men who were put on death row wrongly. Two of them were executed. Two of them were released after 12 years in prison, and several near executions. He brings to light an organization in this country who have literally fought for thousands of death row inmates releases due to their innocence. It is called The Innocence Project. When you have thousands who are dying due to corruptness in our judicial system, then, it is time to call an end to Capital Punishment.

Lisa

I disagree. Just as there is a place for Capital Punishment, there is a need to make sure that it is properly applied. The two are separate considerations.

Nothing more complicated than that.

[HypnoToad]

When you have thousands who are dying due to corruptness in our judicial system, then, it is time to call an end to Capital Punishment.
Or keep capital punishment, and fix the judicial system.

[PoliticalGuru]

Or keep capital punishment, and fix the judicial system.

Agreed,we need reform, not a prohibiting of it.

[Lisa0315]

Or keep capital punishment, and fix the judicial system.

In a sinful world, which do you think would be easier? Eliminate CP or fix the judicial system? I just think that America has become so corrupt now...I mean there are certainly fine lawyers and judges still, but I believe they are in the minority now.

We have an attorney who is fighting for us for Worker's Comp from my husband's employer. She, and the judge, and the Attorney General attorney, they are all trying to get justice for us.

However, when you get into publicity, power, elected prosecutors, and police chiefs, there is a problem.

Lisa

[PoliticalGuru]

In a sinful world, which do you think would be easier? Eliminate CP or fix the judicial system? I just think that America has become so corrupt now...I mean there are certainly fine lawyers and judges still, but I believe they are in the minority now.

We have an attorney who is fighting for us for Worker's Comp from my husband's employer. She, and the judge, and the Attorney General attorney, they are all trying to get justice for us.

However, when you get into publicity, power, elected prosecutors, and police chiefs, there is a problem.

Lisa

Christian Churches at times have been corrupt, does that mean we should get rid of them. I have an issue with the dichtonomy people get into on Capital Punishement, as in either make it an express lane or never have it. Yet, we've never even really attempted to reform it even though we know the problems that are in the system, because the two sides aren't willing to try compromise.

[Simon_Templar]

Let's start stoning homosexuals, adultereres and other such criminals!

Oooh! Dont' forget the disobedient kids!

YOU CAN NOT USE THE BIBLE TO SET CIVIL LAW. Sorry folks. That doesn't fly in America. We're not a theocracy, and God willing, we will NEVER become one.
actually, if you were to go back and research the foundations of the american political/legal system you would find that much of it is directly based on the bible.

Easily the single most influential force in the formation of the american legal system is Blackstone, and his legal philosophy was entirely based on the presupposition that the bible was God's revealed truth and deduction from that principle.

Another of the primary influences on the development of political philosophy that lead to the american system was Rutherford's Lex Rex, and he based most of his arguments and beliefs directly off of the bible.

Until very recently, it was pretty much a universal human belief that governmental authority was derived from divine mandates either directly, or indirectly through divinely revealed principles, or both.

In fact the foundation of the american system is the idea of Individual rights, which in and of itself is born from scripture and the belief that since man has duties to God, he has the right to perform those duties without interferance from the state, or from other people. This is the origin of the three basic rights of life, liberty, and property

[rrguy]

Any law that does not follow or agree with Gods law is not a just law. The more we try to make exceptions or separate government ruling from following the same guidelines the more corrupt the laws will become.

[Lisa0315]

Christian Churches at times have been corrupt, does that mean we should get rid of them. I have an issue with the dichtonomy people get into on Capital Punishement, as in either make it an express lane or never have it. Yet, we've never even really attempted to reform it even though we know the problems that are in the system, because the two sides aren't willing to try compromise.

Oh, I am willing to compromise. I have no doubt that it has a Godly purpose and is Scripturally sound. I am not disagreeing when people have support for CP. I just cannot personally support it. There are many reasons.

1) I am strongly Pro-Life, from birth to the grave, I believe it should be in the hands of God.

2) There IS corruption in our current system and innocent men have died.

3) It gives me the shudders to think that our Lord died under CP even though His life was not taken from Him, but given. In the eyes of His accusers, they put Him to death and knew it was unjust.

That does not mean that I do not understand the reasons for CP. It just means that if our laws are to include it, then, it should be used, only when DNA evidence is absolute or there has been a confession.

Even, then, you have the potential for corruption. In the John Grisham non-fiction book, all four of the men who were convicted were convicted based on very flimsy evidence. The strongest evidence against them was "dream confessions" in which after hours and hours of interrogation, no sleep, food, water, or even a lousy cigarrette, the men began telling the interrogators how they thought the crime happened.

In one case, the "confession" was written for one of the men, and he signed it on the promise that he could go back to his jail cell if he signed it.

In one of the other cases, the video confession was edited to remove the accused who was screaming that he didn't do it and would never admit to doing it, but finally broke down and said what he was told to say.

Four cases in one small town. The real killers were never caught, but one was identified once DNA evidence was given.

This happens all the time. The DA's office is under extreme pressure to solve a crime and get a conviction.

Think of all the black men who were wrongly convicted just because they were black.

Just a few months ago, here in my home state, we had a whole team of LaCrosse players accused of raping a girl. Again, the DA was under so much pressure to get a guilty conviction that he surpressed evidence that would have cleared those young men. Eventually, because these are rich young men and their families had a great deal of power, the truth did come out.

Still, what happens in this country if you are not rich and have to depend on Public Defenders, denied the money for research, and a legal team to fight for you?

There is something wrong when power and wealth determine the outcome of a conviction.

Lisa

[HypnoToad]

In a sinful world, which do you think would be easier?
My understanding of what's right and wrong is not determined by what is easiest.

[Hentenza]

Oh, I am willing to compromise. I have no doubt that it has a Godly purpose and is Scripturally sound. I am not disagreeing when people have support for CP. I just cannot personally support it. There are many reasons.

1) I am strongly Pro-Life, from birth to the grave, I believe it should be in the hands of God.

2) There IS corruption in our current system and innocent men have died.

3) It gives me the shudders to think that our Lord died under CP even though His life was not taken from Him, but given. In the eyes of His accusers, they put Him to death and knew it was unjust.

That does not mean that I do not understand the reasons for CP. It just means that if our laws are to include it, then, it should be used, only when DNA evidence is absolute or there has been a confession.

Even, then, you have the potential for corruption. In the John Grisham non-fiction book, all four of the men who were convicted were convicted based on very flimsy evidence. The strongest evidence against them was "dream confessions" in which after hours and hours of interrogation, no sleep, food, water, or even a lousy cigarrette, the men began telling the interrogators how they thought the crime happened.

In one case, the "confession" was written for one of the men, and he signed it on the promise that he could go back to his jail cell if he signed it.

In one of the other cases, the video confession was edited to remove the accused who was screaming that he didn't do it and would never admit to doing it, but finally broke down and said what he was told to say.

Four cases in one small town. The real killers were never caught, but one was identified once DNA evidence was given.

This happens all the time. The DA's office is under extreme pressure to solve a crime and get a conviction.

Think of all the black men who were wrongly convicted just because they were black.

Just a few months ago, here in my home state, we had a whole team of LaCrosse players accused of raping a girl. Again, the DA was under so much pressure to get a guilty conviction that he surpressed evidence that would have cleared those young men. Eventually, because these are rich young men and their families had a great deal of power, the truth did come out.

Still, what happens in this country if you are not rich and have to depend on Public Defenders, denied the money for research, and a legal team to fight for you?

There is something wrong when power and wealth determine the outcome of a conviction.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I have to agree with you in many respects. The innocent project alone has proven many of what you are saying concerning the system. For those who doubt, see this website: http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php

With that being said, there are also criminals that have committed horrible crimes that, in my opinion, should be given the death penalty. I cringe every time I read about the senseless murder of a child by a pedophile or the murder of a mother of 4 working in a convenience store to help make ends meet.
I live in Texas, the most prolific death state in the nation, which consequently has the most cases of sentencing reversals