Why isn't the Rosary common in Orthodoxy?

[Punchy]

I'm familiar with the prayer beads for reciting the Jesus prayer, but at one time, the Catholic rosary was also practiced among Orthodox Christians.

http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/hiver2004/prayer.htm

For what reason has this changed?

[buzuxi02]

The RC rosary is simply that, roman catholic. The Jesus prayer is commonly prayed among monastics.

There is no devotional prayer in Orthodoxy as there is in RC. For instance there is no prayer service in Orthodoxy where the Jesus Prayer is repititiously prayed. Its a personal devotion, done on ones own time.
Prayer ropes among the laity are not that popular in Orthodoxy neither. Perhaps there more popular in the russian tradition than the greek.

[Rowan]

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary

Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos: Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed in is the fruit of they womb, for you hath borne the Savior of our souls!

[Rowan]

There is no devotional prayer in Orthodoxy as there is in RC. For instance there is no prayer service in Orthodoxy where the Jesus Prayer is repititiously prayed. Its a personal devotion, done on ones own time.


Well, I found at least WR church that does it as a devotional:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~ashtonm/owpp/staugust.htm (http://spot.colorado.edu/%7Eashtonm/owpp/staugust.htm)

It's just not really all that common.

[Anhelyna]

The Rosary is not that common among ECs either.

Yes I'll grant you it is still said in some Churchs before DL - BUT if they had Hours/Orthros before DL that could not happen . It is a latinisation that crept in and should creep out again .

There is really nothing wrong with it as a private and personal devotion - but it's not meant to be a communal one.

Do I still have a Rosary - yes - 2 :) how many Chotki have I got ? -4 and 2 Lestovkas .

Which do I prefer using ? give you one guess.

OH and for information - at the Stavropegal [sp ?] Orthodox Monastery of St John the Baptist in Tolleshunt Knights where I am going next weekend [ it's a double Monastery :) most unusual I'm told ] the Jesus prayer is recited on Monday , Wednesday and Friday from 6-8am and 5.30-7.30pm :)

[Punchy]

The RC rosary is simply that, roman catholic.

Rosary

The rosary was originally an Orthodox form of prayer that was later adopted by the Roman Catholics. It has since fallen out of common practice in the Church. Contents [hide]

[edit]
History

The prayer rope was formed by St. Pachomius in the fourth century. From there the rosary developed, some say as early as the eighth century. It is said that even centuries later St. Seraphim of Sarov (1754-1833) used it to pray to the Virgin Theotokos. In the thirteenth century, Roman Catholics started using in the West following its discovery by Dominic de Guzmán, a Spanish priest.
[edit]
Method

The prayers said on this form of the prayer rope are the Hail Mary (also Hail Mother of God and Virgin), the Lord's Prayer, and the Jesus Prayer. The Hail Mary is said in groups of ten, and in between each group of ten are said the Lord's Prayer and the Jesus Prayer. Between each grouping of Hail Marys, a meditation is also pronounced, which is then thought of throughout the succeeding Hail Marys.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Rosary


It seems that the past history of the rosary has been forgotten.

[Anhelyna]

Punchy

Please note that the quotes you have used all keep saying "it is said "

From time immemorial prayer has been frequently of the type of
X repetitions of such and such prayer - and some method of counting had to be found for this - some authorities suggest it was pebbles being passed from one pocket to another.

At any rate whatever it was eventually we ended up with strings of beads - like Rosaries , Chotki / Comboskini [sp? ] Lestovka and the many forms of Anglican Prayer beads . All these were really used for counting and then most likely developed from there.

St Seraphim of Sarov gave his nuns a Prayer Rule - one that would take a while to complete - but as it is more than likely that their reading skills were not developed as well as those of Priests - he gave them a rule of 100 repetitions of the Angelic Salutation and then the same number of Our Fathers.

The Rosary as practised / used in the West is simply one form of Prayer using repetitions of prayers in a particular order .

So is the Jesus Prayer as practised by many of us - our SFs will suggest that we say a certain number during the passage of the day - and we need something to help us keep track of how many we have said - a Chotki or whatever we use.

This is not meant to be a comment on HOW the Rosary is prayed

[Monica, child of God]

I don't see where we need the Rosary among our devotions. We have the Akathist Hymn and the Paraklesis to the Theotokos which may be done privately or corporately. Besides those there are other Akathists to the Theotokos. And she is honored at every Divine service in song and by supplication.

M.

[Anhelyna]

Monica - total agreement :)

Bet that surprised you :)

OH - and I wonder if anyone has ever counted how often She is mentioned in the DL ?

[Dorothea]

I noticed the Theotokos is mentioned quite a few times in the DL. I noticed also the past few times I'd been to church that the chanter (did in the Greek Orthodox Church up in Spokane, WA) and the chanter down here in Colorado Springs says after one of the prayers the priest does in regards to the Theotokos, that the chanter says something like, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." I don't know how I feel about that. Can you tell me what that is supposed to mean?

[Anhelyna]

Not me Dorothea :)

That is not used in the UGCC

[Dorothea]

Hmm, I'm just wondering because it doesn't come off very good if this is being said in our Orthodox faith...it gives the very impression that we ARE praying and worshipping Mary, which I didn't and don't believe. It's just this one like sounds not so good. Nobody can save us but God. I just wonder what they are meaning by this, because I'd guess they wouldn't believe Mary could save us. ???

[eoe]

Why the lack of curry restaurants in Mexico?!

[Orthosdoxa]

"Most Holy Theotokos, save us."

Save us with your prayers. Save us with the motherly boldness before your Son, which only you have.

The word "save" is loaded, esp. to those in Protestant circles. but consider that it has a lot more meaning than just "keep me out of hell, please". Being "saved" is a corporate experience, as we draw closer to the Head, as the Body and all in it share in His divine Life together. (not to mitigate the personal responsibility in it too, of course.) My husband is saving me by teaching me humility and patience as i learn to be a better spouse. My children are saving me as I die to myself and my own wants in order to put theirs first. I had a grandmother who prayed for me earnestly, as I was a troubled/abused child and looked to be headed for serious trouble. (and it worked - I kept my nose clean, stayed out of trouble, and put myself through college, putting my abused past behind me.) If in the end I am saved, she will have had a part in it.

I could name a thousand more people, including saints.

The Theotokos has a part in saving me, as she unselfishly put aside her own self and willingly bore the Saviour of the World, for my sake. And yours. She stands before the throne of grace today, praying for the whole world. I have no problem with asking her to save me. It does not mean she takes on a god-like status.

[Knowledge3]

I noticed the Theotokos is mentioned quite a few times in the DL. I noticed also the past few times I'd been to church that the chanter (did in the Greek Orthodox Church up in Spokane, WA) and the chanter down here in Colorado Springs says after one of the prayers the priest does in regards to the Theotokos, that the chanter says something like, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." I don't know how I feel about that. Can you tell me what that is supposed to mean?


Mary's consent and submission to God's will allowed for the birth of the Savior and presents the mystery of the Incarnation.

[Monica, child of God]

This phrase is very much a part of our Orthodox faith! Many of our ancient services use this phrase like the Paraklesis (http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/mpthn_canon.htm). It is the refrain of the antiphons in the DL as used by the Greek and Arabic churches and it is at the end of every Vespers!

----------------------------------------------------------
Most Holy Mother of God, Save Us!

O Mary, thou sacred dwelling of the Lord, raise us fallen into a bottomless pit of despair, wrongdoing and affliction; for thou art the salvation and succour and powerful advocate of those that have sinned, and thou dost save thy servants. (Tone 1, Matins, sessional hymn)

Sometimes something becomes so familiar to us that we no longer hear what is said. This was brought to mind when a non-Orthodox attended a Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church recently. His question was, "How can Mary the Mother of Jesus, save us?" He said that the priest intoned the plea at the end of the service.

It is true that at the conclusion of most of our services the priest intones, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!" The visitor to the church, along with many other people, did not understand what is meant by this. To ask the Mother of God to save us is an ancient and revered Christian custom. By this expression we do not address the Virgin Mary as our Redeemer. Our only Saviour and Redeemer is Jesus Christ. The Orthodox Church has never had a notion of the Mother of God as a Redemtrix. We ask the Virgin for her prayers for our salvation from perils and sin. We ask her to save us from those things that impede our ascent toward salvation in Christ.

The word "save" as we use it in reference to the Mother of God, is found in a number of places in Sacred Scripture. St. Peter in the Acts of the Apostles (2:40) exclaims, Save yourselves from this ontoward generation. In I Cor. 1:21 we read that it pleased God through the foolishness of preaching to save them who believe. We also find in Romans 11:14 that St. Paul, speaking to the Jews, says that he hopes by his example to save some of them.

Now let us discuss these references. Needless to say, St. Peter does not suggest that Christians can save themselves. Certainly we do not replace Christ by "preaching" when we understand that preaching has saved believers. And, of course, when St. Paul expressed his desire to save his fellow Jews, he certainly is not, by this expression, taking the redemptive power of Christ.

As in our prayers to the Mother of God, we are using the word save in a special way. This in no way compromises our belief that Christ alone saves and redeems our souls.

From The Orthodox Herald, September 1994; reprinted with kind permission of the editors.

[Monica, child of God]

10. Our Champion Leader
A constant feature of Orthodox worship is veneration of the Virgin Mary, the "champion leader" of all Christians. We often address her as "Theotokos," which means "Mother of God." In providing the physical means for God to become man, she made possible our salvation.

But though we honor her, as Scripture foretold ("All generations will call me blessed," Luke 1:48), this doesn’t mean that we think she or any of the other saints have magical powers or are demi-gods. When we sing "Holy Theotokos, save us," we don’t mean that she grants us eternal salvation, but that we seek her prayers for our protection and growth in faith. Just as we ask for each other’s prayers, we ask for the prayers of Mary and other saints as well. They’re not dead, after all, just departed to the other side. Icons surround us to remind us of all the saints who are joining us invisibly in worship.

--12 Things I Wish I’d Known… Frederica Mathewes-Green

[Monica, child of God]

Near the end of Vespers in the Orthodox Church, the officiant says, "O holy Mother of God, save us". What does this mean? The Orthodox Church has taught from the very beginning that Mary is the supreme example, or prototype, of what happens to a person who fully places trust and faith in God. Everything we aspire to become in Christ, she already is... "Can Mary save us?" leads to another question: "Can we save others?" Again, the Holy Scriptures speak with resounding clarity. Here are some examples: "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you" (1 Timothy 4:16). "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:20). "And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire" (Jude 22, 23). Fire saves (1 Corinthians 3:15), prayer saves (James 5:15), angels save (Isaiah 63:9), baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21), preaching saves (1 Corinthians 1:21), the Apostle Paul saved (Romans 11:14). New life in Christ, or salvation, is both personal union with Him and an incorporation into the wholeness of the Body, the Church.


Salvation is a Church affair, a Church concern, because we are all affected by it. In another biblical image, salvation is seen as a family matter-God's family ("the whole family in heaven and earth"-Ephesians 3:15). Everybody gets into the act, so to speak. Therefore, under Christ we each have a part to play in the corporateness of His saving act. We do not save alone; Mary does not save alone. Jesus Christ is our wellspring of salvation. And He said, "Without Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). But, "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you" (John 15:7). Mary has a unique role in our salvation because she provided the physical body of Christ and thereby became the "mother" of all those who would be saved. That is why Jesus, while on the Cross, said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" and then said to Saint John, "Behold your mother!" (John 19:26, 27).

--Facing Up to Mary, Fr. Peter E. Gillquist

[Dorothea]

Thank you all for your explanations! I may have been in the faith all my life, but didn't grow up in church, and didn't really come into it (go on a somewhat regular basis) until about 10 years ago, and I'm still learning. :blush: I'm glad to know this! I learn more each day!

[Punchy]

I don't see where we need the Rosary among our devotions. We have the Akathist Hymn and the Paraklesis to the Theotokos which may be done privately or corporately. Besides those there are other Akathists to the Theotokos. And she is honored at every Divine service in song and by supplication.

M.

I don't believe that there is anything deficient in Orthodoxy that one would need the rosary, but it isn't a bad thing either. I find it ironic that part of purging latinizations from Byzantine Catholic churches would be removing the rosary when it was originally an Eastern tradition. The Byzantine Catholic church in my town has a rosary meeting dedicated to the unborn, which seems perfectly fine to me.

[Punchy]

Hmm, I'm just wondering because it doesn't come off very good if this is being said in our Orthodox faith...it gives the very impression that we ARE praying and worshipping Mary, which I didn't and don't believe. It's just this one like sounds not so good. Nobody can save us but God. I just wonder what they are meaning by this, because I'd guess they wouldn't believe Mary could save us. ???

It is right and just to pray to the Theotokos for her intercession, that she may fervently pray for our salvation.

[eoe]

Ἄξιόν ἐστιν ὡς ἀληθῶς
μακαρίζειν σε
τὴν Θεοτόκον,
τὴν ἀειμακάριστον
καὶ παναμώμητον
καὶ μητέρα τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν.

Τὴν τιμιωτέραν τῶν Χερουβεὶμ
καὶ ἐνδοξοτέραν ἀσυγκρίτως τῶν Σεραφείμ·
τὴν ἀδιαφθόρως Θεὸν Λόγον τεκοῦσαν,
τὴν ὄντως Θεοτόκον, σὲ μεγαλύνομεν.

[redMountian]

Not me Dorothea :)

That is not used in the UGCC
We do pray that during Akathists and Molebens. Like the other said, she helps to save us by her prayers and supplications.

[buzuxi02]

I don't believe that there is anything deficient in Orthodoxy that one would need the rosary, but it isn't a bad thing either. I find it ironic that part of purging latinizations from Byzantine Catholic churches would be removing the rosary when it was originally an Eastern tradition. The Byzantine Catholic church in my town has a rosary meeting dedicated to the unborn, which seems perfectly fine to me.
The Orthodox church has never had a rosary devotion.

It does have the Jesus Prayer, yet even this is more limited to monastics. Same with prayer ropes.

Likewise Hesychasm is a form of Orthodox spiritual meditation, yet 99% of Orthodox christians probably do not practise it. In fact most spiritual fathers probably wouldnt even recommend it.

As far as the RC rosary within Orthodoxy, this should clear things up:

OCA - Q & A - The Rosary (http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=201&SID=3)

[Ioan cel Nou]

The problem many of us have with the RC practice of praying the rosary is that (I don't know if this is required but my RC family and friends seem all to do this) involves meditation on mental images. This is considered something of a dangerous practice in Orthodoxy and is not part of any Orthodox practice. Praying the rosary without such images I can't see an issue with, but with them - well that certainly is peculiarly Latin, and not good in my opinion.

James

[Punchy]

The Orthodox church has never had a rosary devotion.


http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/hiver2004/prayer.htm

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Rosary

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary

[Anhelyna]

Punchy

You are just repeating what you said earlier .

We have given you our comments.

There is nothing wrong with the Roasry as a personal devotion - BUT it should not be used as a Communal devotion .

Sorry if you do not agree - but that is the situation.

The Orthodox Churches do use the Angelic Salutation - but not in the form / method of prayer repetitions you mention.

As to your local Byzantine Church - nothing wrong there BUT it is not the original tradition of the Eastern Catholic Churches and came in as a latinisation.

At this stage you pays your money and you makes your choice as to what you wish to do .

You may pray the Rosary if you wish - I don't

[Emmanuel-A]

The problem many of us have with the RC practice of praying the rosary is that (I don't know if this is required but my RC family and friends seem all to do this) involves meditation on mental images. This is considered something of a dangerous practice in Orthodoxy and is not part of any Orthodox practice. Praying the rosary without such images I can't see an issue with, but with them - well that certainly is peculiarly Latin, and not good in my opinion.

James

That's exactly my opinion, but you said it better and faster. :thumbsup:

[Sothron]

I have an even *better* question:

Why did the RCC stop doing the self-crossing the correct way and reverse it? It had always been done this way; :crosseo: and at some point the RCC changed it.

Now why did they do that?

[Monica, child of God]

I have an even *better* question:

Why did the RCC stop doing the self-crossing the correct way and reverse it? It had always been done this way; :crosseo: and at some point the RCC changed it.

Now why did they do that?

Are you sure about that? The OOs cross the same way as the Latin Catholics. Maybe there wasn't uniformity to start with.

M.

[Sothron]

I asked both our priests about this and they said the ancient way to cross is the way we still do it. They think it was some kind of show of differentation that the Catholics reversed the order. I believe the OCA website has Q&A about this as well.

[Sothron]

Yep, I was right about the OCA site:

http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=7&SID=3

:crosseo:

[Dorothea]

I have an even *better* question:

Why did the RCC stop doing the self-crossing the correct way and reverse it? It had always been done this way; :crosseo: and at some point the RCC changed it.

Now why did they do that?
Last week, I'd read up on the origins of the sign of the cross on wikipedia. It didn't say why. It seems nobody knows?? :confused:

[Anhelyna]

Frankly I don't think anyone knows the answer to that one

[Greg the byzantine]

Are you sure about that? The OOs cross the same way as the Latin Catholics. Maybe there wasn't uniformity to start with.

M.

I think this is the more realistic answer. After all there is no real conscensus on the significance of the right->left motion.

(because the significance is whatever we personally give it, since making the sign of the cross over our bodies is really what matters in the end)

[isshinwhat]

I was told that the people of the West, in mimicing the priest who was blessing them, inadvertantly reversed the sign of the cross, i.e., if an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox makes the sign facing you, their hands will move head, chest, left, right relative to you. From there, it took on a life of its own and became the way we do it. No source for the claim, though. In all likelihood, I would say there was just no uniformity that early on... Just look at the Canon of the Bible...

[Mary of Bethany]

That's the same thing I heard about it.

Mary

[kamikat]

I was told that the people of the West, in mimicing the priest who was blessing them, inadvertantly reversed the sign of the cross, i.e., if an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox makes the sign facing you, their hands will move head, chest, left, right relative to you..

I've heard this, too. What's funny, is that when the priest is doing the blessing, I will follow him, crossing the Catholic way. When I'm doing it by myself, I do it the Orthodox way. It's the little things that linger, like the forehead, lips, heart crossing at the gospel.

[Dorothea]

I was told that the people of the West, in mimicing the priest who was blessing them, inadvertantly reversed the sign of the cross, i.e., if an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox makes the sign facing you, their hands will move head, chest, left, right relative to you. From there, it took on a life of its own and became the way we do it. No source for the claim, though. In all likelihood, I would say there was just no uniformity that early on... Just look at the Canon of the Bible...
It said that in the wikipedia too as a possible reason. Makes sense in that regard.

[Qoheleth]

There is nothing wrong with the Roasry as a personal devotion - BUT it should not be used as a Communal devotion

I'm curious to know why it should not be communal? Is there a canon that prohibits such a practice?

I would think that the local Bishop would decide this matter.


Q

[Qoheleth]

Are you sure about that? The OOs cross the same way as the Latin Catholics. Maybe there wasn't uniformity to start with.

M

Precisely

In the end, its all the same (left to right, right to left)

Q

[buzuxi02]

http://www.unicorne.org/Orthodoxy/hiver2004/prayer.htm

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Rosary

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary


Don't believe everything you read.
As you know not everything found in wiki is accurate. And i wouldnt take what the westernrite website says all too seriously, this is the same site which claim statues are equal to icons and can be venerated like icons (not even the rc believe the latter). And the unicorn response to the rosary is HIGHLY controversial. Most bishops will find the response given shocking.

Just because 5 or 6 figures in the history of the church can controversially be linked to praying something similar to an rc rosary doesnt mean it was an Orthodox practise. The RC devotion of the rosary began in the 1400's. Even prayer ropes have NEVER played a major role in Orthodoxy neither.

Here is an article from All Saints of North America Orthodox Church in Canada (OCA) concerning the rosary:

Articles: May 2006 (http://www.asna.ca/articles/200605-03.html)

[Anhelyna]

I'm curious to know why it should not be communal? Is there a canon that prohibits such a practice?

I would think that the local Bishop would decide this matter.


Q
It does not need any instruction from our Hierarchs .

The Rosary, and it's communal recitation,is a hangover from the days when latinisation was forced on Eastern Catholics in the USA - then the idea given to them in that very dark period , was that anything from the RC Church was all that was good in catholicism - the same way that celibacy was forced on our priests.

Since John Paul II ,we are returning , on his instructions, to our roots - married men are being ordained and western devotions are no longer given the same precedence - though they do continue.

I repeat there is nothing wrong with the Rosary as a private devotion, but remembering that it does require meditation on a theme which is very visual it is not really an Eastern Devotion.

[buzuxi02]

I have an even *better* question:

Why did the RCC stop doing the self-crossing the correct way and reverse it? It had always been done this way; :crosseo: and at some point the RCC changed it.

Now why did they do that?
this q&a may help"

scroll down to the 10th question. (the second question is also relevant to this thread):

Holy Transfiguration Antiochian Orthodox Church—Q and A for Catholics (http://htaoc.com/faith/qa_roman.html)