Bridging the Gap, part deux

[GreenMunchkin]

I just posted this (http://www.christianforums.com/t5742661-bridging-the-gap.html) in the WWMC forum, and I don't know how it'll pan out, but maybe we all need to start communicating more.

I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind, but we do all need to understand one another better, so I hope some of you will get involved, as well, maybe? Praying, cos, am surprised at how nervous I am :sorry:

:hug: :hug:

[GreenMunchkin]

Any takers? :clap:

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

I just posted this (http://www.christianforums.com/t5742661-bridging-the-gap.html) in the WWMC forum, and I don't know how it'll pan out, but maybe we all need to start communicating more.

I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind, but we do all need to understand one another better, so I hope some of you will get involved, as well, maybe? Praying, cos, am surprised at how nervous I am :sorry:

:hug: :hug:
I agree with you Green...:) And I think the success of it will be determined by how serious people are to see peace. Instead of slamming their opinions and beliefs in each others faces...perhaps we can finally come to a place where we "agree to disagree" and move on. Good idea! :hug: I don't know how much of a help I can or will be as I get so emotional and upset I can't think clearly before I post. :doh: But I will try...and at least I can pray. :prayer:

[Lel]

Liberal invader here. :P

Well, I'm about as conservative as it gets over there, but nonetheless I still lean strongly towards using democratic processes when possible and finding God through reason, well-informed by tradition, scripture, and the Church.

That's what seems to make me liberal. I try to respect God, but I just have so much difficulty with submission to authority. I don't know where this gap comes from. I've been taught that the conservative approach is preferable. I just can't do it very well.

So, I think I'll try to observe examples of submission and try to work on it. And pray - it's all I can do. :pray:

[GreenMunchkin]

Thank you, lovely ladies :hug: And thank you for coming, binarier :hug:

I think, for the mosr part, most people seem to be more interested in fisticuff topics for some reason.

It's all very disheartening and what's-the-pointy.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Thank you, lovely ladies :hug: And thank you for coming, binarier :hug:

I think, for the mosr part, most people seem to be more interested in fisticuff topics for some reason.

It's all very disheartening and what's-the-pointy.
Who's binarier? :scratch: :)

[Lel]

0110 1011 0001

Guess who? ^_^

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

0110 1011 0001

Guess who? ^_^
Ah! ^_^

[Joykins]

:wave: Been poking around between here and WWMC tonight. Lel's analysis over there was very thoughtful and spot-on, I think.

I find it helps not to post under the influence of negative emotion. I have also discovered this past week it is also easy to be misunderstood or mis-express myself when tensions are running high. I like to make my points, but I would hope not to make them at the expense of the brother or sister at the other computer receiving those words.

I hope to stick around here also in the hope of building some bridges :thumbsup:

[NewGuy101]

I've talked to several liberal inviduals in the philosophy and ethics forum. I don't think we have anything in common with them what's so ever. Not to mention several "liberal christians" tend to side with athiest and pagans.

[Sophia7]

I just posted this (http://www.christianforums.com/t5742661-bridging-the-gap.html) in the WWMC forum, and I don't know how it'll pan out, but maybe we all need to start communicating more.

I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind, but we do all need to understand one another better, so I hope some of you will get involved, as well, maybe? Praying, cos, am surprised at how nervous I am :sorry:

:hug: :hug:

Thank you for starting these threads. I think it's a great idea to open up the lines of communication. :)

[Izdaari]

I think G.M. is onto something here, and not just on something. ;)

Although conservatives and liberals have plenty of things to disagree on, they can agree on the most important things: that we are followers of Christ first and foremost, and that love is the greatest commandment. I exempt those who are so liberal that they really aren't Christians anymore (to me, Spong seems like one of those), and those who are so conservative that they aren't either (scribes and Pharisees, oh my!), but for all of us in between, it fits.

I am myself a theological moderate (which makes me very liberal for an Assembly of God person I suppose) and a political neolibertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolibertarianism) who is a regular on WWMC. But I think perhaps I could fit in here too... sometimes. I want to do what I can to heal the divide. I believe in shedding light on the issues, not just heat.

:groupray:

[NewGuy101]

I think G.M. is onto something here, and not just on something. ;)

Although conservatives and liberals have plenty of things to disagree on, they can agree on the most important things: that we are followers of Christ first and foremost, and that love is the greatest commandment. I exempt those who are so liberal that they really aren't Christians anymore (to me, Spong seems like one of those), and those who are so conservative that they aren't either (scribes and Pharisees, oh my!), but for all of us in between, it fits.

I am myself a theological moderate (which makes me very liberal for an Assembly of God person I suppose) and a political neolibertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolibertarianism) who is a regular on WWMC. But I think perhaps I could fit in here too... sometimes. I want to do what I can to heal the divide. I believe in shedding light on the issues, not just heat.

:groupray:
Slight problem...the liberal Christ isn't the same as the biblical christ. They make him out to be some sort of hippie.

[Hishandmaiden]

I've talked to several liberal inviduals in the philosophy and ethics forum. I don't think we have anything in common with them what's so ever. Not to mention several "liberal christians" tend to side with athiest and pagans.
I disagree. I used to be liberal and yet I still love Jesus very much. Just that I tend to love Him even more now, so I want to follow more closely by the Bible.

I think the liberals share one common thing with us: They accept Jesus as their saviors.

By liberals, I mean those who believe Jesus is the one who saves them from their sins.

[Izdaari]

Slight problem...the liberal Christ isn't the same as the biblical christ. They make him out to be some sort of hippie.
I believe in the biblical one. Of course the '60s Hippy movement wasn't around when Jesus was... but then neither were Yankee Puritanism or Southern Redneckism... from which IMO entirely too much of today's American Christian subculture is derived. Same error the liberals make, in mirror image. Jesus doesn't conform to any of our 20th Century molds.

:hug:

[Hishandmaiden]

I think G.M. is onto something here, and not just on something. ;)

Although conservatives and liberals have plenty of things to disagree on, they can agree on the most important things: that we are followers of Christ first and foremost, and that love is the greatest commandment. I exempt those who are so liberal that they really aren't Christians anymore (to me, Spong seems like one of those), and those who are so conservative that they aren't either (scribes and Pharisees, oh my!), but for all of us in between, it fits.

I am myself a theological moderate (which makes me very liberal for an Assembly of God person I suppose) and a political neolibertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolibertarianism) who is a regular on WWMC. But I think perhaps I could fit in here too... sometimes. I want to do what I can to heal the divide. I believe in shedding light on the issues, not just heat.

:groupray:
I agree. Amen.

[Albion]

I disagree. I used to be liberal and yet I still loved Jesus very much. Just that I tend to love Him even more now, so I want to follow more closely by the Bible.

I think the liberals share one common thing with us: They accept Jesus as their saviors.

Yes, but this is why we have to have a definition of "conservative" here, and that it not be something so wide and broad that although it offends no one by shutting them out, it doesn't restrict the voters to conservatives.

[Hishandmaiden]

Keep up your work, GM! :)

[Albion]

Although conservatives and liberals have plenty of things to disagree on, they can agree on the most important things: that we are followers of Christ first and foremost, and that love is the greatest commandment.

That's a good statement of what unites Liberals and Conservatives; it doesn't do anything for finding a definition of Conservative for this forum, however, which is intended for the Conservative viewpoint, not to be a place where the two contend equally. There are several other forums for that.

[PostTribber]

[COLOR=green]I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind, but we do all need to understand one another better, so I hope some of you will get involved, as well, maybe?

Jesus said it this way, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." He desires us to be either hot or cold, but luke warm makes Him puke. Catholisim sought to maintain unity by burning heretics. Protestants respond by burning bridges (church splits). and yet there is only One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, etc. the liberal wants worship he can feel, the conservative wants liberals to heel, and all us in between want a salvation that's real. a 'denomination' is just another way of calling each other names. I believe what Jesus said, "when the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the Earth?" :prayer:

[Hishandmaiden]

I agree. Amen.
I think our differences is we believe the scripture is the absolute truth, while they focus more on the changing social circumstances.

They see us as old-fashioned and rigid, we see them as not being true to the bible. I hope that helps you with the defination of conservative part.

(But this thread is about bridging the gap, and that is why I talk about the similarities we have with the liberals.)

[GreenMunchkin]

I believe in the biblical one. Of course the '60s Hippy movement wasn't around when Jesus was... but then neither were Yankee Puritanism or Southern Redneckism... from which IMO entirely too much of today's American Christian subculture is derived. Same error the liberals make, in mirror image. Jesus doesn't conform to any of our 20th Century molds.

:hug:
Hiya, Izdaari :hug:

Am sorry for any rudeness you're getting. You're 100% welcome here :clap:

[Izdaari]

Hiya, Izdaari :hug:

Am sorry for any rudeness you're getting. You're 100% welcome here :clap:

Thank you, G.M.! :hug:

Is ok, I'm a big girl and I can take it. And I know I'm not really a conservative, so it would be redundant for anyone to point that out. I'm just a moderate who thinks we Christians are all in this together, united by our common savior despite our doctrinal differences. I'll just hang out here sometimes and share some Izzy love with y'all. :D

:amen:

[Albion]

Thank you, G.M.! :hug:

Is ok, I'm a big girl and I can take it. And I know I'm not really a conservative, so it would be redundant for anyone to point that out. I'm just a moderate who thinks we Christians are all in this together, united by our common savior despite our doctrinal differences. I'll just hang out here sometimes and share some Izzy love with y'all. :D

:amen:

And on behalf of all American Christian subculturists, 'Yankee Puritans', Southerners, and 'Rednecks', may I also welcome you and apologise for you feeling unwelcome.

[Izdaari]

And on behalf of all American Christian subculturists, 'Yankee Puritans', Southerners, and 'Rednecks', may I also welcome you and apologise for you feeling unwelcome.
:blush: Heh, thanks! Best left-handed compliment I've had in a while. ;)

And btw, I am myself an American Christian who has lived in the South, and thinks highly of the region in many ways. I was just pointing out that those cultural influences are no more biblical doctrine than the Hippy influence is.

:preach:

[Albion]

:blush: Heh, thanks! Best left-handed compliment I've had in a while. ;)


OK, but maybe it's a right-handed compliment actually. ;)

Seriously, we all know that liberals will drop in from time to time, I just found the idea of anyone having been unwelcoming to you as silly, because that didn't happen. And it's certainly not as though you are a shrinking violet when it comes to harsh language, right? I should actually have posted it to the one who was trying to play the peacemaker on the forum rather than to you yourself, and for that I apologize.


Cheers.

[Izdaari]

Thanks, Albion. I actually do feel pretty welcome here. :hug:

Right, I'm no stranger to confrontations, nor am I offended by them, though I'd rather have discussions that shed more light than heat.

I'm liberal compared to conservatives, but conservative when compared to liberals. Since there is no forum for theologically moderate, politically neolibertarian folks like me, and probably not much demand for one, I'll just have to fit in wherever I can.

:cool:

[Joykins]

shrinking violent

I love this typo.

[Izdaari]

I love this typo.

^_^

That is a good one! Violents are my favorite flowers. ;)

[Joykins]

That's what seems to make me liberal. I try to respect God, but I just have so much difficulty with submission to authority. I don't know where this gap comes from. I've been taught that the conservative approach is preferable. I just can't do it very well.

I'm the opposite--I have no problem actually submitting to authority. But I have come to realize that any given authority itself may be corrupt or hostile. What does this mean for the Christian who has been taught to submit and resist not evil? What does this mean to modern people who hold enlightenment ideas about rights? What does it mean when there are people in authority the church who are committing evil? I mean, you don't go on letting them abuse the little ones because they are pastors do you? I'm torn.

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm the opposite--I have no problem actually submitting to authority. But I have come to realize that any given authority itself may be corrupt or hostile. What does this mean for the Christian who has been taught to submit and resist not evil? What does this mean to modern people who hold enlightenment ideas about rights? What does it mean when there are people in authority the church who are committing evil? I mean, you don't go on letting them abuse the little ones because they are pastors do you? I'm torn.That's the thing, isn't it? Man will always be wholly fallible, and behave appallingly under the umbrella of "Christianity". Can't submit to people like that. Look at David Berg. People truly believed in his ministry... to this day people still do.

And Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda. Along with any number of people, including the ones in the news at the moment.

That's why we all need to see we all have a relationship with Jesus. Yah, we all have varying theological interpretations, but Jesus should be the beginning and end of it.

[GreenMunchkin]

Don't want this to be forgotten :blush: :sorry:

[~free~]

Lel, great post earlier....clarified a lot of things!! Like many here, I had no idea there were different kinds of Christians....thought I was just a Christian, not conservative. Naive, maybe, but peacful. :)

Anna, this is exactly the sort of thing I would expect Jesus to do...peace among the body. Good on ya sister!! :hug:

[GreenMunchkin]

Lel, great post earlier....clarified a lot of things!! Like many here, I had no idea there were different kinds of Christians....thought I was just a Christian, not conservative. Naive, maybe, but peacful. :)Isn't it weird?!! So many people are only now realising they're a "type" of Christian, in terms of label!

Something specific at CF has made people become super-aware that there's different types (not denomination-wise) of Christians, but can't figure out what it is. It was before the changes, as there were already liberal and fundamentalist forums... tis a head-scratcher.

But whatever it is, we'll all be in Heaven together, no? So disagreeing with each other is ok, but despising each other - over something we didn't even notice beforehand - is veddy veddy bad.

[Macrina]

This is an interesting thread -- can we bring this discussion back?

[Voegelin]

Any takers? :clap:

No. Not interested in "bridging the gap".

1 Corinthians 13 is enough. Don't need to split the difference or engage in the dialectic to fulfill that. No need to build an undefined type of bridge over a gap. That there is "gap" there doesn't concern me at all in fact. I don't stay awake a night fretting over relativists, materialists and liberal Christians. They've always been there and always will.

Nor do I need to "understand" liberal Christianity or relativism. I know what both are. Our popular culture, secular as it is, is a result of it.

Nor do I agree with your comment, "I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind" as obviously people do become conservative Christians. You say you did. There are Saul on the road to Damascus conversions but most convert after hearing another person speak to them.


Nor do I agree with your comment that liberals " may have a point in many ways" when they say conservative Christians are "incredibly judgemental".


Liberals aren't making any valid point at all when they say that. All they are saying is they don't agree with orthodox theology. Liberal Christians are as judgemental as anyone else. But that is OK. Christians are not commanded to be potted plants. Despite what many outside the faith repeatedly tell us there more to the faith than John 8:7 and Matthew 7:1

[Macrina]

I've spent a good bit of time in both liberal and conservative environments, theologically speaking. From my experiences, I offer a few random thoughts:

Labels are tricky things. We tend to define "liberal" and "conservative" relative to our own position. In one environment, I'm a fundamentalist, and in another environment, I'm a liberal -- according to how others label me, that is; my theology doesn't change, just my environment does. So just like I wouldn't want a liberal to paint all conservatives with a broad brush, generalizing all of us, I want to be cautious about doing that with liberals.

I will freely say that I have spoken with some liberals whose theology horrifies me and causes me to wonder how anyone can claim to be a Christian and believe such things. But I have also spoken with liberals who are fairly orthodox and who affirm the same things that I would consider essentials of the faith. I might think they are very wrong on certain matters, but I do believe they are sincere Christians. Although I'm as guilty of generalizations as anyone else, I do try to remind myself to get to know each person as an individual rather than make assumptions about their faith according to what "party" they belong to.

This may land me in a bit of hot water, but I there seem to be some people, both liberal and conservative, who haven't been exposed to one end or the other of this spectrum. This can lead to some inaccurate labeling. I'll give two offline examples: At one of the two theological schools I attended, people like me who believed in the literal resurrection of Christ were labeled fundamentalists -- whereas we would just call ourselves "Christian!" It was such a liberal environment that the spectrum was skewed. Where I live now, a female pastor is automatically assumed to be a flaming liberal on the basis of that one issue; I sometimes wish I could show those individuals what real liberal feminism is like, so they'd realize that I in no way fit that category. My point here is that I've seen people on both "sides" make judgments about others based on an incomplete view of the entire spectrum. It's because of this that I tend to resist labels such as "liberal" and "conservative." Since the labels are usually assigned based on the speaker's own experience, they tend to be very slippery terms.

I think this thread and the companion thread in WWMC are helpful discussions. Instead of villifying others according to a label which may or may not be accurate, I'd like us to look at individual ideas and convictions. I'm not saying we'll all believe exactly alike and sing kum-ba-ya together, but I'm thinking that seeing each other as individuals rather than categories can only be helpful.

[Voegelin]

I have no trouble distinguishing between Joseph Ratzinger and Jim Wallis, between Barry Lynn and James Dobson. The difference between the Cube and the Cathedral, between Boys Town and Planned Parenthood, between Mother Teresa and Princeton Ethicist Peter Singer are clear too.

I also know some would prefer not to be labeled and I know why.

[GreenMunchkin]

No. Not interested in "bridging the gap".:sigh: Another of my posts you're jumping on.

1 Corinthians 13 is enough. Don't need to split the difference or engage in the dialectic to fulfill that. No need to build an undefined type of bridge over a gap. That there is "gap" there doesn't concern me at all in fact. I don't stay awake a night fretting over relativists, materialists and liberal Christians. They've always been there and always will.Good for you. However feeling like people despise one another because of an artifical label warrants the issue be addressed. It was.

Nor do I need to "understand" liberal Christianity or relativism. I know what both are. Our popular culture, secular as it is, is a result of it.Agreed, but if you're unwilling to understand the people, that's your call.

Nor do I agree with your comment, "I can't see any of us on either side ever changing any one else's mind" as obviously people do become conservative Christians. You say you did. There are Saul on the road to Damascus conversions but most convert after hearing another person speak to them.I became increasingly conservative the more time I spent with God, not the more time I spent with conservative Christians. We will never convince them. God will do that.

Nor do I agree with your comment that liberals " may have a point in many ways" when they say conservative Christians are "incredibly judgemental".Do you feel we're incapable of being judgemental? When we acknowledge and say it's relativism and apostasy, do you really feel we always do it in love?

Liberals aren't making any valid point at all when they say that. All they are saying is they don't agree with orthodox theology. Liberal Christians are as judgemental as anyone else. But that is OK. Christians are not commanded to be potted plants. Despite what many outside the faith repeatedly tell us there more to the faith than John 8:7 and Matthew 7:1 Yes, they are. They are judgemental of conservative Christians more than anyone else. Hency my opening a dialogue.

[Macrina]

I became increasingly conservative the more time I spent with God, not the more time I spent with conservative Christians. We will never convince them. God will do that.

You know, this raises an interesting issue: How can we exert a positive influence on the theology of others without being judgmental? Is it even possible?

I agree that God is the ultimate source of conviction. I do believe, though, that the Lord uses believers to influence each other. He often speaks through the community of faith. So I would say that the question is "how can we make ourselves available to be a godly influence on the thinking of others, without overstepping ourselves into judgment?"

I see some people who are rude and condescending to those who disagree with them; I do not see the fruit of the Spirit in those interactions. I see other people who too readily agree to disagree and rarely speak up for what they believe/know is right; this is an equally serious mistake. We probably all err on one side or the other. We shouldn't shrink away from expressing truth, but we should certainly flee from a judgmental attitude.

Bottom line (IMHO ;) ): We don't change people's minds, but we might be the means through which the Lord chooses to do so. That gives us a responsibility to speak up in such a way that the other person can hear, if such is at all possible.

[Tangeloper]

I'm liberal compared to conservatives, but conservative when compared to liberals. Since there is no forum for theologically moderate, politically neolibertarian folks like me, and probably not much demand for one, I'll just have to fit in wherever I can. :cool:

**Newbie here**

Gosh, do I hear you Izdaari (more conservative than liberal, and a touch more liberal than some conservatives). I'm a former Libertarian (dues-paying National & State member, State Board Member, and very much an activist during that time). I am now an independent politically for a variety of reasons, although I definitely fit the definition of a conservative in my views on God, the Bible, and society.

I will say that I don't find myself fitting in with "liberals" at all the closer I have gotten to God and Jesus (and due to current events) in the last few years. In fact, my emotions sometimes really get in the way nowadays when I try to debate with "liberals" on matters of faith and politics/society.

I do attempt to "bridge the gap" by trying as hard as I can to understand that we are all coming from a place of wanting what's best for society and each other even though we may have a different vision of how to get there, or even what's "best". This has for some reason become harder for me in the last few years -- when I was a Libertarian activist I found I could tolerate many different viewpoints and very calmly explain why I disagreed, but I think I've made more firm decisions (and some of my views have changed) as far as my beliefs (politically & religiously) since then.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with trying to bridge the gap as far as trying to decrease the amount of anger and wrath that I've seen on both "sides" over the last few years. However, I don't think that people should betray their strongly held beliefs in an effort to do so. I guess basic human respect (not attacking someone personally like accusing them of being stupid, etc...) should always be foremost in our minds.

As far as this particular board -- and I know I'm a newbie here -- but I don't think this would be the place to debate over such matters (Liberal vs. Conservative -- socially or politically) I think rather this should be a board where members who are Conservative feel comfortable expressing their opinions and beliefs without having to justify them to "liberals" who have completely divergent viewpoints.

A side note: I really hate labels, but I guess in our society they are somewhat necessary. If anything I think we should work on coming up with definitions of liberal and conservative that clearly help people decide where they belong. I know I was a bit confused at first, but in reading the posts, understand that I definitely belong in here rather than in the "liberal" section... :)

Thanks for reading...
~~ Tangeloper

P.S. Izdaari -- you may answer this in a PM if you would like so as not to hijack this thread -- but, what do you mean when you call yourself "neolibertarian"? I've never come across that term before... Just curious! :)

[SallyNow]

I've talked to several liberal inviduals in the philosophy and ethics forum. I don't think we have anything in common with them what's so ever. Not to mention several "liberal christians" tend to side with athiest and pagans.

I was going to post in this thread and attempt to explain myself and commonly-held so-called "liberal positions" to see if I could help bridge the gap between the two groups. There often seems to be a lot in common if both sides are willing to see it. Many Christians who are liberals have some conservative views, and vice versa. But none of that seems to matter right now. It seems that my place has already been decided by those who do not even know me.

I usually have a thick internet skin, but right now, I'm close to tears. The gap is so large, and it causes so much strife.

I am very sorry for ever stepping into this thread.

:(

[Izdaari]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with trying to bridge the gap as far as trying to decrease the amount of anger and wrath that I've seen on both "sides" over the last few years. However, I don't think that people should betray their strongly held beliefs in an effort to do so. I guess basic human respect (not attacking someone personally like accusing them of being stupid, etc...) should always be foremost in our minds.
Exactly so. We don't need to compromise our beliefs. All we need to do is respect others, have a humble attitude and walk in love. Both sides can do much better on that.

P.S. Izdaari -- you may answer this in a PM if you would like so as not to hijack this thread -- but, what do you mean when you call yourself "neolibertarian"? I've never come across that term before... Just curious! :) No need, there's nothing private about it. It's basically just a way of saying I'm one of the more conservative libertarians, particularly on foreign policy, where I fit better with Republicans (particularly Goldwater and Reagan), and on ideological purity vs. pragmatism, where I have to go with what works, politics being the 'art of the possible'.

Here's the Wikipedia definition, which seems pretty accurate to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolibertarianism

[Voegelin]

I was going to post in this thread and attempt to explain myself and commonly-held so-called "liberal positions" to see if I could help bridge the gap between the two groups . . .

Your position is clear.

So is what liberals mean when they say they want dialogue, understanding and to bridge the gap.

It means they want acceptance. Of this today, of that tommorow and more of this and more of that next week. We've seen the dialectic used against orthodoxy all our lives. When rebuffed on it, the reaction, feigned in my opinion, is to express hurt, disappointment and sadness.

With the changes in CF the game has become so transparent it is almost comical. Seen more than a few say they "just have questions", say they only want understanding and then make it clear elsewhere they are social activists whose position consists of turning, for instance, the Catholic church, into a church which accepts gay marriage, accepts married priests, accepts abortion, accepts euthanasia and accepts the form of Liberation Theology John Paul II and then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger pushed out of the church a quarter of a century ago.

Ecumenicalism is good. But liberals have used it as a weapon against orthodoxy.

Wouldn't it be refreshing to agree this particular show has run long enough? I am not hurt, saddened and disappointed when liberals do not agree with my position. I do not expect them to "bridge the gap" with me (they never do with conservatives, so-called "progress" to them demands conservatives compromise their position, not for liberals drop any of their beliefs). I know they understand what the majesterium of the Catholic church teaches, what James Dobson and Frank Page believe. The reason they are liberals is because they don't agree with it. There doesn't have to be a theological war between the two sides but neither do we have to keep up rhetoric about the problem being a lack of understanding.

I understand perfectly well. And I know liberals do as well.

[Sothron]

Liberalism in terms of Christianity is almost always some form of moral relativity and I absolutely despise it and renounce it.

For an example go to the liberal christian board here and see their thread on what they feel sin is. Its post after post affirming moral relativity. "Essentially its "only wrong if you feel its wrong" and if others call a sin a sin (or a spade a spade in other words) they are guilty of "judging others".

I see no point in dialogue as the root for any debate is to to ascertain some common truth and understanding. As stated above liberals only want to win "acceptance" for anything and stand for nothing. There can be no compromise: either a spade is a spade or its some cheesy cop-out of moral relativity left to the individual.

Link to their thread on sin, judge for yourself:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5800547-what-do-you-believe-about-sin.html

[GreenMunchkin]

Wow, one post *precisely* stated exactly what relativism is: "Sin is subjective".

The thing I have a problem with, though, is when we verbally "bash" them as people, rather than discuss the lies they've been tricked into believing, because by hurting them, we push them further away from the truth. If someone is unwilling to hear the truth about their beliefs, such as "sin is subjective", ony God can convict them of that. But if we hurt their feelings by making it about them, we are allowing them to retreat further into relativism, and apostasy.

We must never, ever compromise the truth, but we must be loving, even when we rebuke. And both "sides" have been very guilty of hatred, which is the problem. Being judgemental isn't rebuking their errors in terms of their beliefs; it's in being mean to them as people, and I know when the announcements were first made and it all went nuts, I was very guilty of that.

I guess an analogy would be in boiling a frog. Heat the water slowly, and the frog is fine. Toss a frog into boiling water and it will suffer and try to escape. That's the difference between doing it in love, and bashing them over the head and being angry.

[Macrina]

Ewww, frog-boiling!







;)

Good points, Greenie.

[GreenMunchkin]

Ewww, frog-boiling!
;)

Good points, Greenie.Yay, Mac!! Hullo! :hug::hug::hug:

Honestly, though, if you gradually heat a frog in water until it's cooked, it won't even bat an eyelid.

Frogs are silly :D

[Sothron]

Wow, one post *precisely* stated exactly what relativism is: "Sin is subjective".

The thing I have a problem with, though, is when we verbally "bash" them as people, rather than discuss the lies they've been tricked into believing, because by hurting them, we push them further away from the truth. If someone is unwilling to hear the truth about their beliefs, such as "sin is subjective", ony God can convict them of that. But if we hurt their feelings by making it about them, we are allowing them to retreat further into relativism, and apostasy.

We must never, ever compromise the truth, but we must be loving, even when we rebuke. And both "sides" have been very guilty of hatred, which is the problem. Being judgemental isn't rebuking their errors in terms of their beliefs; it's in being mean to them as people, and I know when the announcements were first made and it all went nuts, I was very guilty of that.

I guess an analogy would be in boiling a frog. Heat the water slowly, and the frog is fine. Toss a frog into boiling water and it will suffer and try to escape. That's the difference between doing it in love, and bashing them over the head and being angry.

I am not opposed to treating any poster from Christian to non-Christian with a common decency and respect. That is simply good netiquette manners and I totally agree with trying to stop some of the personal attacks or hard feelings.

I just do not think its possible to have some kind of real understanding since ultimately it boils down to one side believing in absolute truths and the other side believing in absolute relativity.

[Joykins]

I just do not think its possible to have some kind of real understanding since ultimately it boils down to one side believing in absolute truths and the other side believing in absolute relativity.

I'm identified at this board as liberal and I believe in absolute truth. What I'm not so sure of is my ability to comprehend it.

[Gukkor]

I am not opposed to treating any poster from Christian to non-Christian with a common decency and respect. That is simply good netiquette manners and I totally agree with trying to stop some of the personal attacks or hard feelings.

I just do not think its possible to have some kind of real understanding since ultimately it boils down to one side believing in absolute truths and the other side believing in absolute relativity.

For someone so concerned with absolute truth, you sure do seem caught up in your sweeping, largely inaccurate generalizations. I'm one who considers himself a liberal Christian, and I too believe in absolute truth, and if you'll read my post in the sin thread, objective sin as well. What say you to me? What say you to others like me? When this handy heuristic of yours (namely, "liberal Christianity=relativity=evil") falls apart, how do you address us? I would implore you not to bunch liberals up into one oversimplified group as you seem to be doing, for most of us have not done the same to conservatives. Understanding and some degree of reconciliation is possible, but only when we put such thinking aside.

[LivingLifeHisWay]

I don't like labels. Probably because none fit me. I don't fit into a mold and I never will. Most liberals would consider me conservative and some conservatives would consider me liberal.

I wear pants, I read from the NIV translation, I wear jeans to church :swoon: , I befriend non-Christians, I worship God with my hands in the air, I laugh a lot, I tell jokes, I DANCE :tutu: , I watch TV, I watch movies, I have 2 tattoos BUT

Jesus is my Saviour, He has changed me from the inside out and I love and serve Him with my whole heart. I make a lot of mistakes but the awesome thing about Him is that He loves me no matter what. He is there when I repent and crawl back to Him. He is there to dust me off and send me on my way - whole and clean. I bieleve that the Word of God is perfect, flawless...we are saved by grace not by works.

My issue with extreme liberals is their view of the Bible - it should be our anchor. It should be our guide. The Bible is the very words of God. How awesome is that? Shouldn't it be our sole authority?

I've heard it said...."The Bible is not divine but a human product" These comments make me cry because yes - God used humans to write it but they are His thoughts, His Words. The Bible is not flawed...study the dead sea scrolls - they are the same scriptures we have today.

There is something though....Heaven will not be filled with just Baptists, or just Anglicans, or just Protestants, or just anyone...there will be many people from different denomonations and we will all be praising the King.

I always tell extreme conservatives....Heaven would be such a lonely place if you are the only one who is going to be there.

I don't know if there is a point to this post but my ending will be this:

I honestly don't feel like I belong to either the Liberal or Conservative forums BUT I choose to come here because I agree with the conservative theology of salvation. We need to repent from sin, and turn to God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Peace and Love...:hug:

[Sothron]

For someone so concerned with absolute truth, you sure do seem caught up in your sweeping, largely inaccurate generalizations. I'm one who considers himself a liberal Christian, and I too believe in absolute truth, and if you'll read my post in the sin thread, objective sin as well. What say you to me? What say you to others like me? When this handy heuristic of yours (namely, "liberal Christianity=relativity=evil") falls apart, how do you address us? I would implore you not to bunch liberals up into one oversimplified group as you seem to be doing, for most of us have not done the same to conservatives. Understanding and some degree of reconciliation is possible, but only when we put such thinking aside.

Because in all due respect the label fits. In this particular discussion can you honestly tell me that between a choice of conservative or liberal Christians which of the two groups is more likely to believe that sin is relative to the individual or that sin is an absolute regardless of the individual? Can you honestly tell me that the liberal label would not be a better fit on the relativist side of that argument?

There is no way a label can apply to all situations and all people. Some degree of labelling is a necessity to discuss a particular. In this particular of sin as relative moralism it is appropriate to use labels. Individuals like yourself can disagree but you sadly do no represent all liberal Christians in this matter just as I do not represent all conservative Christians. ;)

[Sothron]

I'm identified at this board as liberal and I believe in absolute truth. What I'm not so sure of is my ability to comprehend it.

There is a disciple of Plato whose name escapes me that would agree with you. I personally believe that Plato was right in that we can discern the absolute truth and that they (obviously) do exist.

Not all liberals disagree with absolute truth but since we have two boards pencilled "con" and "lib" the latter side is the one most likely to not believe in absolute truth. Can we agree on that?

[Macrina]

My issue with extreme liberals is their view of the Bible - it should be our anchor. It should be our guide. The Bible is the very words of God. How awesome is that? Shouldn't it be our sole authority?

I've heard it said...."The Bible is not divine but a human product" These comments make me cry because yes - God used humans to write it but they are His thoughts, His Words. The Bible is not flawed...study the dead sea scrolls - they are the same scriptures we have today.



Your entire post resonated with me. Reps coming your way. ;)

But the part that I quoted got me thinking that maybe it would help this conversation if we all tried to articulate the place of scripture in our faith. In my experience, I've talked with liberals who believe the Bible is an inspiring but human text, and I've talked with other liberals who agree that the Bible is divinely inspired and our one infallible guide for faith and life. Most I've talked with fall somewhere in between these two, but there is variation.

So, for those in this thread, both liberal and conservative, I pose this question:

What role does scripture play in your faith? What is the nature of its authority?

[Sothron]

I hold Scripture and Holy Tradition as absolute truths that are a necessity to true Christian living and worship.

[Macrina]

Because in all due respect the label fits. In this particular discussion can you honestly tell me that between a choice of conservative or liberal Christians which of the two groups is more likely to believe that sin is relative to the individual or that sin is an absolute regardless of the individual? Can you honestly tell me that the liberal label would not be a better fit on the relativist side of that argument?

There is no way a label can apply to all situations and all people. Some degree of labelling is a necessity to discuss a particular. In this particular of sin as relative moralism it is appropriate to use labels. Individuals like yourself can disagree but you sadly do no represent all liberal Christians in this matter just as I do not represent all conservative Christians. ;)

Sure, one group may be more likely than the other to fall into a particular error. I would estimate that a higher percentage of liberals slip into some form of relativism, and that a higher percentage of conservatives slip into judgmentalism. But I do not want to be called judgmental just because I am a conservative, so I refrain from generalizing liberals as relativists. It's that whole "do unto others" bit. ;)

I think we'll make progress if we try to see each other as individuals, rather than categories.

[Sothron]

Sure, one group may be more likely than the other to fall into a particular error. I would estimate that a higher percentage of liberals slip into some form of relativism, and that a higher percentage of conservatives slip into judgmentalism. But I do not want to be called judgmental just because I am a conservative, so I refrain from generalizing liberals as relativists. It's that whole "do unto others" bit. ;)

I think we'll make progress if we try to see each other as individuals, rather than categories.

Unfortunately since we have two boards whose exact purpose *is to label* then I do not think that is possible. I understand your point and while I judge an individual on an individual basis I think for terms of general agreement on terms that we can say one position of a debate is more likely to be liberal or conservative.

If I said for instance which side is more likely to believe that if you are not saved you are condemned to hell which side would generally agree? It works both ways. In order to have any kind of discussion then some degree of labelling or stereotyping is needed because on those particulars it is necessary to describe proponents of one side of an argument or the other.

[Joykins]

Not all liberals disagree with absolute truth but since we have two boards pencilled "con" and "lib" the latter side is the one most likely to not believe in absolute truth. Can we agree on that?

I think the conservative is more likely to believe that they have the absolute truth; the liberal may believe that it exists but that we do not have as good a grasp on it as we would like.

[Macrina]

Unfortunately since we have two boards whose exact purpose *is to label* then I do not think that is possible. I understand your point and while I judge an individual on an individual basis I think for terms of general agreement on terms that we can say one position of a debate is more likely to be liberal or conservative.

If I said for instance which side is more likely to believe that if you are not saved you are condemned to hell which side would generally agree? It works both ways. In order to have any kind of discussion then some degree of labelling or stereotyping is needed because on those particulars it is necessary to describe proponents of one side of an argument or the other.

Actually, I think the danger lies in taking the "more likely" and applying in unknown situations. That's my point -- that the original phrasing didn't adequately recognize the variation in positions. Be careful of assumptions. Just because we have labeled forums doesn't mean we can assume what that label means, especially when it's not even our forum we're talking about.

[Joykins]

Unfortunately since we have two boards whose exact purpose *is to label* then I do not think that is possible.

I thought they were safe havens for fellowship of like-minded people--not necessarily to label. Self-identification is largely the key.

I understand your point and while I judge an individual on an individual basis I think for terms of general agreement on terms that we can say one position of a debate is more likely to be liberal or conservative.

More or less--but for me, a lot of times I see something attacked and it's called liberal. It may or may not be something I believe! If it's about something promoted by Bishop Spong, it's probably not very close to what I believe! Yet I'm somehow included. It's very confusing!

If I said for instance which side is more likely to believe that if you are not saved you are condemned to hell which side would generally agree?

Once everyone can agree on what being "saved" means :D ...I'm not sure any interdenominational group can get there right now.

It works both ways. In order to have any kind of discussion then some degree of labelling or stereotyping is needed because on those particulars it is necessary to describe proponents of one side of an argument or the other.

There is a simply huge spectrum on both sides. That's part of what makes the label so difficult to deal with...like is any hypothetical attack on "Liberal Christains" intended for me or not??? Should I answer it? Who knows?

[GreenMunchkin]

I don't like labels. Probably because none fit me. I don't fit into a mold and I never will. Most liberals would consider me conservative and some conservatives would consider me liberal.

I wear pants, I read from the NIV translation, I wear jeans to church :swoon: , I befriend non-Christians, I worship God with my hands in the air, I laugh a lot, I tell jokes, I DANCE :tutu: , I watch TV, I watch movies, I have 2 tattoos BUT
*loveliness snipped*

Peace and Love...:hug:Love you, C :hug::hug::hug: :clap:

[Rochir]

Right now I feel we are burning more bridges than building any! :(

[Macrina]

There is a simply huge spectrum on both sides. That's part of what makes the label so difficult to deal with...like is any hypothetical attack on "Liberal Christains" intended for me or not??? Should I answer it? Who knows?

Yeah, I never know how to deal with those things, either. :scratch:

I wonder if it's my exposure to such a wide spectrum of theologies that I am very cautious about making assumptions. I've encountered, and really gotten to know, soooo many different approaches that might fall under the same label -- I can't just lump everyone who is more liberal than me into one category and consider the job done.

[Macrina]

Right now I feel we are burning more bridges than building any! :(

What would you suggest?

[Sothron]

I thought they were safe havens for fellowship of like-minded people--not necessarily to label. Self-identification is largely the key.



More or less--but for me, a lot of times I see something attacked and it's called liberal. It may or may not be something I believe! If it's about something promoted by Bishop Spong, it's probably not very close to what I believe! Yet I'm somehow included. It's very confusing!



Once everyone can agree on what being "saved" means :D ...I'm not sure any interdenominational group can get there right now.



There is a simply huge spectrum on both sides. That's part of what makes the label so difficult to deal with...like is any hypothetical attack on "Liberal Christains" intended for me or not??? Should I answer it? Who knows?

I would venture the opinion that on your last question(s) that if you felt on a particular issue it attacked or disagreed with your position on that issue then you would be justified in disagreing with it. Fair enough?

Take for instance..trying to think of a current political issue...universal health care coverage. I personally believe in it and I also feel it is simply Christian to care for one another and provide medical benefits to those who can not afford it.

Is that "conservative"? I would argue it is not. Does that then invalidate me from the label? No, just on that one issue.

As to your first point if the boards are only for self-identification we again have the same problem: if half the room says its blue and the other half says its green then bammo! we already have labels for each other. Its simply unavoidable. :(

[Rochir]

What would you suggest?

Less conciliatory talk - more conciliatory action!

[Macrina]

Less conciliatory talk - more conciliatory action!

That sounds great, but what would it look like?

[LivingLifeHisWay]

I hold Scripture and Holy Tradition as absolute truths that are a necessity to true Christian living and worship.

Why is there an "and" after Scripture if we are not to add to His Holy Word? What does tradition mean to you?

[SallyNow]

Your position is clear.

So is what liberals mean when they say they want dialogue, understanding and to bridge the gap.

It means they want acceptance. Of this today, of that tommorow and more of this and more of that next week. We've seen the dialectic used against orthodoxy all our lives. When rebuffed on it, the reaction, feigned in my opinion, is to express hurt, disappointment and sadness.

With the changes in CF the game has become so transparent it is almost comical. Seen more than a few say they "just have questions", say they only want understanding and then make it clear elsewhere they are social activists whose position consists of turning, for instance, the Catholic church, into a church which accepts gay marriage, accepts married priests, accepts abortion, accepts euthanasia and accepts the form of Liberation Theology John Paul II and then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger pushed out of the church a quarter of a century ago.

Ecumenicalism is good. But liberals have used it as a weapon against orthodoxy.

Wouldn't it be refreshing to agree this particular show has run long enough? I am not hurt, saddened and disappointed when liberals do not agree with my position. I do not expect them to "bridge the gap" with me (they never do with conservatives, so-called "progress" to them demands conservatives compromise their position, not for liberals drop any of their beliefs). I know they understand what the majesterium of the Catholic church teaches, what James Dobson and Frank Page believe. The reason they are liberals is because they don't agree with it. There doesn't have to be a theological war between the two sides but neither do we have to keep up rhetoric about the problem being a lack of understanding.

I understand perfectly well. And I know liberals do as well.

If you knew what I understand, what I know, what I believe, and what my opinions are, you would know that what you said does not describe my beliefs. But instead you insist you "understand perfectly well".

I am sorry, but you do not not understand my position.

I try my best not to make broad generalizations or judge people based on one label, and I thought that duel threads like these would help. Perhaps they still can. But can listen to each other in these two threads, rather than prejudge?

Is there any point in me trying to post, or will others judge me on what you say about me, rather than what I have to say for myself?

:sigh:


Liberalism in terms of Christianity is almost always some form of moral relativity and I absolutely despise it and renounce it.

For an example go to the liberal christian board here and see their thread on what they feel sin is. Its post after post affirming moral relativity. "Essentially its "only wrong if you feel its wrong" and if others call a sin a sin (or a spade a spade in other words) they are guilty of "judging others".

I see no point in dialogue as the root for any debate is to to ascertain some common truth and understanding. As stated above liberals only want to win "acceptance" for anything and stand for nothing. There can be no compromise: either a spade is a spade or its some cheesy cop-out of moral relativity left to the individual.

Link to their thread on sin, judge for yourself:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5800...about-sin.html (http://www.christianforums.com/t5800547-what-do-you-believe-about-sin.html)


You will notice that some liberals have opinions close to yours, and some do not. :wave: Just as some conservatives have overlapping views. You will also notice that liberals do not want win bold-faced "acceptance". The issues of acceptance are clear, and what we stand for varies, but is often just as firm (and often similiar to) as any conservative view.

A keen observer sees far beyond the few and far-between posts of "moral reletivity". But a lot of us on both sides often just see what we want to see rather than what there is. I am no different! We all do it. But we all need to look beyond that.

I think we all need take a step back and at least try. :wave:

[Macrina]

...duel threads like these would help...

I think you meant "dual."
Freudian slip much? ;)


On a more serious note, I appreciate your presence and your comments, and I hope you will help me better understand your position.

[GreenMunchkin]

I've just read the complemetary thread in WWMC, and I can't really be bothered to try anymore, either.

The problem is, on both "sides" there will always be people who disagree, but do it civilly, and then there are those who simply say and believe hateful things, and I can't be bothered to filter the hate out. If people really want to be believe conservatives are all bad, then that's their prerogative.

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Love you, C :hug::hug::hug: :clap:

Love ya 2, A :kiss:

[Gukkor]

I've just read the complemetary thread in WWMC, and I can't really be bothered to try anymore, either.

The problem is, on both "sides" there will always be people who disagree, but do it civilly, and then there are those who simply say and believe hateful things, and I can't be bothered to filter the hate out. If people really want to be believe conservatives are all bad, then that's their prerogative.

Eh? I was under the impression things were going rather smoothly in the WWMC version of this thread.:confused:

[SallyNow]

I think you meant "dual."
Freudian slip much? ;)


On a more serious note, I appreciate your presence and your comments, and I hope you will help me better understand your position.

Freud always get me in so much trouble! I really don't know why I hang out with him anymore...:P

I appreciate your presence, too. Please don't give up. There are those trying to find common ground and at least some sembalance of understanding.

I've just read the complemetary thread in WWMC, and I can't really be bothered to try anymore, either.

The problem is, on both "sides" there will always be people who disagree, but do it civilly, and then there are those who simply say and believe hateful things, and I can't be bothered to filter the hate out. If people really want to be believe conservatives are all bad, then that's their prerogative.

But there those that are trying on both sides... can't we just try? Those who are willing to have civil discussions... can't we just try? :groupray:

[Sothron]

Why is there an "and" after Scripture if we are not to add to His Holy Word? What does tradition mean to you?

I am a catechumen in the Orthodox Church. We hold Holy Tradition to be sacred. Scripture came from Tradition but Scripture does not contain all of Tradition.

[Tangeloper]

Thanks for the explanation Izdaari. I checked out the WIKI definition, and I understand perfectly what you mean now. And, I'll bet we probably have a lot in common re: political views. Thanks again! :)

[Tangeloper]

Yep, I definitely belong on this board! LOL Thanks for the link.

[Izdaari]

Thanks for the explanation Izdaari. I checked out the WIKI definition, and I understand perfectly what you mean now. And, I'll bet we probably have a lot in common re: political views. Thanks again! :)
Sure, glad I could help! :)

We probably have a lot in common in theology too, since I'm at least 90% orthodox in my own weird Pentecostal/Anglican/Lutheran way.

:hug:

[Albion]

I think we all need take a step back and at least try. :wave:

Sure. Maybe we could do it on the other forum since you feel unwelcome or misunderstood on this one. What kind of reception do you think we will be receiving?

[SallyNow]

Sure. Maybe we could do it on the other forum since you feel unwelcome or misunderstood on this one. What kind of reception do you think we will be receiving?

Well, I think that if everyone is kind and respectful in their ways of discussion it should go well.

There are many members in this thread in CC that do make me feel very welcome :wave: There are just sometimes posts that sort of... put me off of trying to find common ground.

I guess I see it like this: one need not have the same building methods to build a house together. All that is required is that through organization and discussion it is decided which methods go where - and tada! A house is built :groupray:

[Albion]

Well, I think that if everyone is kind and respectful in their ways of discussion it should go well.

Good. I have no experience there and rather suspect that we'd be received poorly, but I trust that you'd know what actually is likely to happen. Give me the 'heads up,' and I will certainly join in.

[SallyNow]

Good. I have no experience there and rather suspect that we'd be received poorly, but I trust that you'd know what actually is likely to happen. Give me the 'heads up,' and I will certainly join in.

You would be welcome in the twin thread over in the Liberal Forum, provided, of course, that everyone follows the Liberal Forum rules (just as people are mostly following the conservative rules here)

The WWMC rules include the following: that liberal beliefs not be attacked and that we not be preached at by those of different beliefs.

However, a clear, factual account of what you believe would not be seen as "preaching" provided it was just that: a clear, factual account that did not attack anyone else

So yes, you are very welcome in WWMC's Bridging the Gap thread :wave:

[Joykins]

The WWMC regulars are pretty welcoming as long as you're not there to harangue them ;)

[Pogue]

The WWMC regulars are pretty welcoming as long as you're not there to harangue them ;)

Exactly. We welcome people who are there to have respectful dialogue. And we hardly ever bite people. ;)

[GreenMunchkin]

The WWMC regulars are pretty welcoming as long as you're not there to harangue them ;)Except, and I asked at the time but never got a response, when I first posted the thread, someone in WWMC said it was done out of ego or something? That was kind of mean and unwelcoming...

But, yes, for more the most part, it's a welcoming place. Walls go up automatically slightly, but given the antagonism between the two "sides", that's probably to be expected.

I honestly think it's something endemic to CF that there's such an overt divide.

[Macrina]

I honestly think it's something endemic to CF that there's such an overt divide.

Speaking as someone in a denomination with a split personality, I can say that the divide isn't just on CF. :sigh:

[LivingLifeHisWay]

I would agree that the divide isn't just on CF. I attend a Baptist church but it is the only evangelical church in my area so we have people from different sides attending. There is a lot of debating going on and it's not fun. Liberal vs Conservative is a real issue.

[Macrina]

I would agree that the divide isn't just on CF. I attend a Baptist church but it is the only evangelical church in my area so we have people from different sides attending. There is a lot of debating going on and it's not fun. Liberal vs Conservative is a real issue.

Just a comment on terminology: In the common usage of my denomination and some other American mainlines I know about, "evangelical" is considered almost synonymous with "conservative." Personally, that's not how I would define it, but that's how people use it. These labels are crazy!

[Joykins]

I identify as evangelical.

[SallyNow]

Also, in many European nations "evangelical" has little bearing on whether a church is liberal, conservative, or moderate.

:wave:

[Tangeloper]

Just a comment on terminology: In the common usage of my denomination and some other American mainlines I know about, "evangelical" is considered almost synonymous with "conservative." Personally, that's not how I would define it, but that's how people use it. These labels are crazy!

Re: Evangelical being synonymous to conservative... I always thought Evangelical meant those people who openly shared their faith in Christ with others vs. people who moreso remain quiet within society about their religious beliefs. Evangelical, in the community I grew up in, was more synonymous with those who wished to encourage unbelievers and believers alike to attend their church! (No offense to any evangelicals -- that's just the way things were in my community, and with the people who attended the Evangelical church that was next to my Jr. High. I attended some youth group activities at the church and found the people to be loving and caring, so it's not meant as a mean statement...)

In my experience, a lot of people who define themselves as liberal, and are not particularly religious assume that all who share the message of Jesus are Conservatives.

I really don't like labels, either. I think sometimes it serves to divide people based on stereotypes. Then again, I do find that I get along better with those who would define themselves as Conservatives vs. Liberals so it helps me to sort of know when I might be among people with whom I have to tread gently when sharing my world-views.

~~ Tangeloper

[WalksWithChrist]

Bumping this thread just to say hi!

:wave:

[synger]

Also, in many European nations "evangelical" has little bearing on whether a church is liberal, conservative, or moderate.

:wave:
Very true. The first churches to be called "evangelical (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05642a.htm)" were the churches of the Reformation -- Lutheran and Calvinist (that's what they called themselves... the moniker "protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#Protestant_Reformation_.281521.E2.80.931579.29)" came later). It goes back to their emphasis on what they considered the true euangelion."(good news), as opposed to the RC emphasis on tradition.

So in Europe, the "Evangelical" church on the corner is likely to be Lutheran or Reformed. And some American Lutherans still consider themselves "Evangelical Catholics" rather than "Lutherans".

[jameseb]

You know, it's a shame that this thread in the LC is being consumed by those who have nothing nice to say about the CC members. Maybe this is fruitless. Maybe I'm cynical. I'm really afraid I'm just a realist.

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Re: Evangelical being synonymous to conservative... I always thought Evangelical meant those people who openly shared their faith in Christ with others vs. people who moreso remain quiet within society about their religious beliefs. Evangelical, in the community I grew up in, was more synonymous with those who wished to encourage unbelievers and believers alike to attend their church! (No offense to any evangelicals -- that's just the way things were in my community, and with the people who attended the Evangelical church that was next to my Jr. High. I attended some youth group activities at the church and found the people to be loving and caring, so it's not meant as a mean statement...)

In my experience, a lot of people who define themselves as liberal, and are not particularly religious assume that all who share the message of Jesus are Conservatives.

I really don't like labels, either. I think sometimes it serves to divide people based on stereotypes. Then again, I do find that I get along better with those who would define themselves as Conservatives vs. Liberals so it helps me to sort of know when I might be among people with whom I have to tread gently when sharing my world-views.

~~ Tangeloper

You've said a mouthful here Tangeloper! :thumbsup:



I HATE the labels....I really do. People make assumptions based on labels. God's heart is for to be united...do a search on biblegateway.com and you'll see just how important it is to the Lord that we come together as one body. What...does anyone think we'll be wearing labels in heaven? Is there gonna be a Catholic church on one corner, and then a Pentecostal church on the other...with the Lutherens down the street and the Baptists down by the river having a picnic? LOL! No my friends...we will be standing next to each other Praising the King of Kings together. As we SHOULD be here on earth. :groupray:

[Tangeloper]

You've said a mouthful here Tangeloper! :thumbsup:



I HATE the labels....I really do. People make assumptions based on labels. God's heart is for to be united...do a search on biblegateway.com and you'll see just how important it is to the Lord that we come together as one body. What...does anyone think we'll be wearing labels in heaven? Is there gonna be a Catholic church on one corner, and then a Pentecostal church on the other...with the Lutherens down the street and the Baptists down by the river having a picnic? LOL! No my friends...we will be standing next to each other Praising the King of Kings together. As we SHOULD be here on earth. :groupray:

:thumbsup: :amen: :clap:

[WalksWithChrist]

I have many conservative friends online and in "real life" and I love them all!
:wave:

[Macrina]

As a companion to DarkMage's thread, how about I bump this one? In that thread, there is talk of what we can do to forge peace... maybe in this thread, we can get to know each other better?

[Criada]

Excellent idea!
:hug:

[Athene]

Sounds like a good plan. I'll start. My name is Athene, I'm a stay at home mum and I have 3 kids who are 10, 8 and 1, the oldest and the youngest are both girls.

By UK standards I'm probably quite moderate theologically but politically I'm decidedly on the left . . . and I drink tea not coffee and I like my tea hot.

[Albion]

. "and I drink tea not coffee and I like my tea hot."

This disturbs us very much and we are deeply concerned for you.

On the other hand, everything else about you is OK with us and we thank you for posting your message. Maybe you will start an avalanche of such introductions!

[~free~]

You've said a mouthful here Tangeloper! :thumbsup:



I HATE the labels....I really do. People make assumptions based on labels. God's heart is for to be united...do a search on biblegateway.com and you'll see just how important it is to the Lord that we come together as one body. What...does anyone think we'll be wearing labels in heaven? Is there gonna be a Catholic church on one corner, and then a Pentecostal church on the other...with the Lutherens down the street and the Baptists down by the river having a picnic? LOL! No my friends...we will be standing next to each other Praising the King of Kings together. As we SHOULD be here on earth. :groupray:I agree Trekki!!
It's not a mouthful but, what unites us is infinately greater than what divides us!! That's where our focus should be!


As a companion to DarkMage's thread, how about I bump this one? In that thread, there is talk of what we can do to forge peace... maybe in this thread, we can get to know each other better?

Great idea sis!! :hug:

[Macrina]

You can call me "Mac." I'm a Presbyterian pastor of a small rural church. I'm a vegan (well, as vegan as I can be -- I'm not constantly asking waiters if there's butter in something). I'm absurdly fond of my two cats, both long-haired gray tabbies. I met a fella on this website and in about a month, I'm going to visit him for the second time. I'm trying to lose weight, which is somewhat possible now that my PCOS (insulin disorder) is being properly treated. I think belly dancing is fun. I love the Pacific Ocean. I enjoy trying out new creative projects, whether it's knitting or cooking or trying my hand at interactive fiction. I have three-inch long multicolored grasshoppers that live in my yard. That's about it for now. ;)

[Criada]

Were they multicoloured originally, or is that one of the creative projects? :D

[Macrina]

Were they multicoloured originally, or is that one of the creative projects? :D

Haha!! When they're born, there are hordes of them all over my yard. They're jet black with little red splotches, and they're about the size of normal grasshoppers. When they get to be adults, they are jet black with yellow, red, and sometimes orange splotches. Quite the interesting mutant insect. They look right at you... you get the feeling they're intelligent somehow. :D

[Izdaari]

Hi! I'm Izzy (and yep, my friends call me that in real life too), just your average tall skinny tomboyish middle-aged punk/biker chick, who happens to be a neolibertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolibertarianism) and a follower of Christ.

I'm single, married once long ago, no kids. Haven't found the right person since, but I haven't given up. I'm a self-employed PC tech; I build and fix computers for people, and sorta kinda make a living at that. My hobbies are reading (politics, history and theology in non-fiction, mostly sci-fi and mysteries in fiction), gaming (online roleplaying games mostly these days), martial arts (just getting back into it after a long absence -- I used to do Karate, tried out Krav Maga recently, and am now preparing to take up JKD), and online message boards such as this one.

I attend an Assembly of God church, and I'm happy there, but my theology is more in the Lutheran to Anglican range, leaning charismatic and emergent. I'm only mostly conservative, but enough so that I seem to fit in here. I also spend some time on WWMC because though I disagree with those folks on a lot, that's not a big deal to me. It's more important that I like their company and we have good conversations.

[Criada]

Hi.
I'm a Christian - not into labels, though more conservative than liberal :)
I'm married, and have four kids, a dog, three cats, a rabbit and a hamster...
I'm a teacher, teaching teenagers in a secure residential unit (only started that today :))
I have many good friends on both sides of this 'divide', and would love to see us learning to understand and accept one another in Christ.
Cos He loves us so very much, whatever labels we put on ourselves...He calls us friends - and that is what matters!

[Tangeloper]

As a companion to DarkMage's thread, how about I bump this one? In that thread, there is talk of what we can do to forge peace... maybe in this thread, we can get to know each other better?
:amen: I'm in my self-imposed "cooling off" time though, so I'll come back when I'm in a more loving place. :)

[Macrina]

:amen: I'm in my self-imposed "cooling off" time though, so I'll come back when I'm in a more loving place. :)

Ok. It's a wise person who knows when a cooling-off time is needed. :)

[3girls2dogs]

Ok, I'll go. I've just returned to the Catholic Church after a long absence. I could not find any other Christian Church that was as in line with my beliefs (which, incidentally, were formed by 12 years of being taught by Nuns ;) ). I'm a Marine Corps wife, a mother of 3 beautiful girls, and I am owned by 2 very sweet but naughty Boxers. I work full time, my husband is deployed, and I am very, very close to losing my mind.

I tend to run on the Conservative side of even Conservative beliefs. I believe that the truth is absolute and does not change with the wind. I was once very liberal. I won't lie. But I was shown the truth by the grace of God.

[Macrina]

Ok, I'll go. I've just returned to the Catholic Church after a long absence. I could not find any other Christian Church that was as in line with my beliefs (which, incidentally, were formed by 12 years of being taught by Nuns ;) ). I'm a Marine Corps wife, a mother of 3 beautiful girls, and I am owned by 2 very sweet but naughty Boxers. I work full time, my husband is deployed, and I am very, very close to losing my mind.

I tend to run on the Conservative side of even Conservative beliefs. I believe that the truth is absolute and does not change with the wind. I was once very liberal. I won't lie. But I was shown the truth by the grace of God.

I'm sorry that your husband is deployed -- military families make great sacrifices. I'm not from a military family myself, but I grew up in a small Navy town, so I had lots of friends whose dads or husbands would be gone for months on end, including many gone during the first Gulf War. Being the one left on the home front is not an easy job. :hug:

On a happier note, I LOVE Boxers! They are awesome dogs!

[Freedom&Light]

I love the idea of getting to know each other. :) Fellowship is good!

I'm Frances, and I'm a social worker at a nursing home. I'm owned by a 7 yr old chihuahua named Ollie, who is too smart for his own good. :cool:

I love visiting churches in this area, which is different than where I grew up. My church home, however, is a Church of Christ in a nearby area. I went to a Church of Christ college (which was known as a liberal one because we could wear shorts! :swoon: ), and got my minor in Bible, which was a lot of fun. I wish I had done a double-major in ministry. Someday I'd love to be a missionary (I have fantasies of becoming a nurse and going to a far off land to be a nurse missionary), but for right now, my mission field is the nursing home I work in. :)

I wish CCC was started earlier than it was. I probably would have come here first. But WWMC became my home because of the weird conversations and the ice cream. I think the ice cream became too fattening, so we all switched to coffee. I disagree with a lot of the theology over there, but enjoy the discussions we have. :) I identify myself as a moderate because I work to see how others get the interpretations they do. Often, when I can see the other side of the coin, it's harder for me to come out and say that the view is wrong. I figure that God will sort all that out in the end. :)

So that's me, then. :tutu:

[chaoschristian]

As a companion to DarkMage's thread, how about I bump this one? In that thread, there is talk of what we can do to forge peace... maybe in this thread, we can get to know each other better?

I am chaoschristian, follower of Christ, husband, father, stay-at-home-dad, avid reader, all around handy-man, gidget fixer and gadget tinkerer (speaking of tinkering, we need to get Tinker Grey in here if he's so inclined) and hopefully soon a store owner.

I have many animals who share their habitate with us, a cat, a rabbit, three rats, two hamsters, a tree frog and five Madagascar Hissing Cockroaches.

My kids are ChaosBoy (9) and PrincessChaosGirl (7). Their primary occupations are school and teaching other people how to have fun.

My wife, Bride of Chaos, is an Officer of the Court and views her profession more as a ministry than a job.

I'm ornery, crotchety and meddlesome, but I'll never close my door on you or refuse the call for hospitality.

My favorite tv show doesn't exist. It's a fantasy cross-over of Doctor Who and House.

I bowl duck pins on a league.

I grok Zippy the Pinhead.

:wave:

[Athene]

It would be funny to have a Doctor Who as nasty and bad tempered as House.

[Pogue]

:wave: Hello everyone! I'm Pogue, I'm a student doing German with Dutch. Born into a fairly traditional Catholic family in some ways, but unconventional in others (we're all vegetarians and I've never eaten meat or fish:eek: ) My dad's not religious in any way, which I think gives me a different perspective on some things.
Hobbies include reading, languages, knitting, archery, politics, drinking far too much coffee and listening to crazy music. Ooh, and I started my First Ever Job last week, sorting mail. It's not the most interesing job in the world ever, but the people are nice and friendly and it might help in the quest to avoid huge student debt, so that's good. And I haven't had coffee in four days, so I'm getting a bit snappy and headachy, and apologise in advance for anything I might say or do which is mean and/or nasty.
And that is all! :kiss:

[£amb]

Oh, I can't resist...someone mentioned Doctor Who and I feel the need to post...:) My husband and myself really enjoy the show.

Anyway, I grew up in a christian home. A very fundamentalist/conservative house...take your pick...;)

I grew up at the church I attend now. I was baptised, married and work there. Was I always the model christian?....no. There were several years where I did not attend church just out of pure laziness. It wasn't until after I was pregnant with my second child that I felt God calling me to come back to church. As soon as I stepped back into church, I started to work the Preschool. It was through that time that I started to study the bible, attend church and surrounded myself with wonderful fellow believers. I have matured spiritually and thank God for getting my life back on track.

[Joykins]

I'm Joy.

I'm a working mom of two, enjoy reading, writing (poetry and very short fiction), knitting, science fiction/fantasy lit, ethnic foods, and have an interest in learning home repair but am a little scared to start. My day job is in software development for a reference publishing / information service company for which I used to be an editor.

I was raised in and go to a conservative church, but I'm not conservative. I'm not super liberal either, so I describe myself as "on the liberal side of moderate."

IRL I am an extreme introvert which is why I tend to try to socialize online, but I'm trying to burst out of my shell IRL which is diminishing my online time somewhat.

[chaoschristian]

and have an interest in learning home repair but am a little scared to start.

The great thing at being a beginner at home repair is that anything you break is just one more opportunity to practice.

[Joykins]

The great thing at being a beginner at home repair is that anything you break is just one more opportunity to practice.

See, I am still in the rut of seeing it as just one more opportunity to pay the handyman $100 / hour to come fix again... ^_^

[chaoschristian]

See, I am still in the rut of seeing it as just one more opportunity to pay the handyman $100 / hour to come fix again... ^_^

Measure twice, cut once. Have duct tape at the ready.

[Joykins]

Measure twice, cut once. Have duct tape at the ready.

The problem is, I don't even know where to START. My screen door won't close due to positioning and the little arm that closes and I don't know how to fix it or who to even ASK :cry::cry::cry:

[No Swansong]

I'm John;
There is no question by anyone who knows me that I am probably more conservative than almost anyone else. I make no apologies for that. I am a Fundamentalist by the definition that we utilize on CF. I won't even go to a swimming pool because I feel it is inappropriate for me to see women other than my wife dressed in the manner that they do at swimming pools. Nor do I believe those who say that this has no affect on them male or female. I just don't buy it. (although I can probably outswim most people as far as distance is concerned. I used to swim miles at a time)

I spent a number of years in the Navy and served as a medic, although for some of my time I served with a Marine Corps unit. They lovingly called us DevilDocs.

I am crotchety, and ill tempered at times. I enjoy such things as studying Theology, History and Literature. I have been involved in Shorin Ryu Karate for over 30 years and since becoming disabled miss it more than anything else that I used to spend my time on. I also crochet and knit.

Almost 25 years ago I was hit by a drunk driver. Because of that I eventually was forced to retire from serving on an EMS department about 4 years ago. I have seizures daily and sometimes experience something called Status Epileptus which is a condition in which one seizure starts either immediately after the previous one or before the previous one ends. I have experienced this event 3 times in the past month. As a result of the seizure activity I suffer from an enlarged heart and am sometimes reduced to walking with a cane. In case you can't tell I am bitter about all of this.

However one benefit of becoming disabled is that I was able to return to school. I am now pursuing my first Graduate Theology degree (surprisingly from a Roman Catholic University) I also have a degree from Ohio University and some others.

As for trying to bridge the gap. I spent some time modding on WWMC and was received fairly well. I also post there from time to time. I never forget that it is the Liberal board and I purposely don't cross any lines (well at least knowingly) I would never attempt to interfere with their running of the their board or to influence their decision making. It really irritates me that there are however some who have tried to do just that at CC.

I am married for 21 years to the only woman who could possibly have the grace to love someone like me. We have two boys both Christian young men who surprisingly haven't grown up with my pessimistic view of the world. (click on my picture they are on either side of me)

[Macrina]

http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1188245238-1188063298900.b.jpg

[Criada]

:D

You've been following the same links as me..

[No Swansong]

My question for the WWMC folks here. What can I as an individual poster do to make your experience on CF more meaningful?

[GreenMunchkin]

Measure twice, cut once. Have duct tape at the ready.:eek: Chaos has a dolly! And he seems to be dressed as a jester...

[Izdaari]

My question for the WWMC folks here. What can I as an individual poster do to make your experience on CF more meaningful?
I'm not a WWMC member, but I am a regular there and I think you're doing just fine. :thumbsup:

"Probably more conservative than almost anyone else" you may be, but I haven't seen you be unloving towards those less conservative than yourself. If we walk in Faith, walk in Love, and stay in the Word, we're doing good.

:holy:

[Pogue]

I'm not a WWMC member, but I am a regular there and I think you're doing just fine. :thumbsup:

"Probably more conservative than almost anyone else" you may be, but I haven't seen you be unloving towards those less conservative than yourself. If we walk in Faith, walk in Love, and stay in the Word, we're doing good.

:holy:

I agree. I've noticed that most visitors to WWMC have been really respectful and polite- explaining why they believe what they do, and not being over-critical of anyone else's beliefs. We couldn't ask for much more. They've been a pleasure to talk to :thumbsup:

[Criada]

Help!!!
Invasion of the cat-heads!!
:D
:hug:

(Have you considered offering the ferret a ladder?)

[Pogue]

Help!!!
Invasion of the cat-heads!!
:D
:hug:

(Have you considered offering the ferret a ladder?)

:idea: Now there's a thought! But the question is: can ferrets climb ladders?

[Criada]

This one just did!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w188/Criada/29033000.jpg

:)
(You may need a longer one, tho!)

[Pogue]

This one just did!

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w188/Criada/29033000.jpg

:)
(You may need a longer one, tho!)

:clap: There's still hope! Although...won't my head get cold without a cat on it? Winter's approaching...

[Aquamarine81]

Hi all! :wave:
I'm Aqua, 26 years old, and work in retail. I love reading, writing, and listening to music(mostly country). I'm a huge NFL fan(Go Panthers!) and really looking forward to the upcoming season. I like politics and keeping up with current events. I don't watch much TV other than news shows(CNN, MSNBC, and Fox) but I do like Family Guy and American Idol.
I am mostly liberal -- but I do have some conservative beliefs. I am very much pro-life, and against gun control.
I respect anyone's opinion -- and think we can just agree to disagree on some things. :)

[Tangeloper]

Hello, everyone! I post a lot here in the CCC, but thought I would post a little about myself here in the thread!

I'm 35 years old, and am the mother of 4 girls aged 9-15. I have been married for 15 years to a wonderful man -- Praise the Lord! And, we homeschool our daughters.

I have worked in Retail, Restaurants, and Politics over the years -- my most recent paid job was a Domestics Department manager in a Discount Department store in Denver, Colorado.

I grew up in the NW Suburbs of Chicago, moved to Denver in 1997 -- stayed there for about 8 years, and then moved back to the mid-west -- this time in North Central Wisconsin.

I enjoy reading, singing, and writing. I don't watch a lot of Television -- mostly DVDs of movies and old TV series that we can rent for free from our awesome library! I get most of my news from online sources as our local newscasts leave a lot to be desired, and we don't have cable! LOL

Hmmm... what else??? LOL As far as my beliefs... I'm a former Libertarian, who just recently joined the Republican party. I am definitely a conservative, but do have some views that some might consider "liberal" politically but it's only due to my respect of the Constitution and its limits...

As far as religious views -- I'm definitely a conservative. I was raised Catholic, attended a Lutheran Church in Colorado for a number of years where my children were all baptized, and now I'm "church-shopping" as I have a greatly renewed faith in the last year alone and I'm not sure where I "belong" right now! LOL

I'm glad to have this thread so that we can get to know each other outside of debates and such! I have a lot of friends who are "liberal" and although I will debate tooth and nail for my position I respect other's views as well, and of course I am a firm believer in Freedom of Speech! LOL

OK, this is long enough... If there's anything else you'd like to know about me, just ask!!! :)

Hugs to everyone on the thread! :hug:

-- Tangeloper

[Nadiine]

Help!!!
Invasion of the cat-heads!!
:D
:hug:

(Have you considered offering the ferret a ladder?)
DID SOMEONE SAY CAT-HEADS??!! *perk*
:sorry:

[Criada]

DID SOMEONE SAY CAT-HEADS??!! *perk*
:sorry:
*runs away screaming..*

This is getting beyond a joke - tis an epidemic!

[WalksWithChrist]

Cat Heads offend me.
:P ;)

------------------------------------------------>>

[Criada]

But feathers are OK?
You could be hiding a cat behind there, how do we know you're not a cathead spy?
:P

[Nadiine]

Cat Heads offend me.
:P ;)

------------------------------------------------>>
And Feathers make Bubba the Kitty HUNGRY!!!!
:yum: :yum: :yum:

[Nadiine]

But feathers are OK?
You could be hiding a cat behind there, how do we know you're not a cathead spy?
:P
ROFLL Criada!!! ^_^ ^_^
Ya, what else might be behind that thing? hahha

[WalksWithChrist]

But feathers are OK?
You could be hiding a cat behind there, how do we know you're not a cathead spy?


http://www.siliconhell.com/Images/Mad%20Cat/images/humour/spy.jpg

And Feathers make Bubba the Kitty HUNGRY!!!!
:yum: :yum: :yum: Bubba Kitty HUNGRY!!!!!!!

Must FEED!!

http://garynuke.homestead.com/lostpets/Fat_Cat_1.jpg

[Nadiine]

ROFL walks!!!! thanks, too funny ^_^ :P

[Criada]

^_^ ^_^