Losing Salvation

[FenderElctrc]

I know people won't agree with me, but you can't lose salvation. When we fall, it is the grace of God that picks us up. Salvation is a free gift and it not received through works. Jesus died for all men so that all could be forgiven of their sins. God doesn't take away our salvation if we are in habitual sin or sinning often.

Here is a link to a thread I made of sin. I want you to pay close attention to to the explanation of 1 John 2:12-14:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5687438-sin.html

Also, here is a link to a video on this topic by thevinerhyme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QDWi9DVgY

[ephraimanesti]

I know people won't agree with me, but you can't lose salvation. When we fall, it is the grace of God that picks us up. Salvation is a free gift and it not received through works. Jesus died for all men so that all could be forgiven of their sins. God doesn't take away our salvation if we are in habitual sin or sinning often.

Here is a link to a thread I made of sin. I want you to pay close attention to to the explanation of 1 John 2:12-14:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5687438-sin.html

Also, here is a link to a video on this topic by thevinerhyme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QDWi9DVgY

MY BROTHER,

"eternal security" is a very dangerous delusion to dangle in front of new Christians.

ephraim

[heymikey80]

Just listening to Jesus.

I am giving them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28

A qualification, for people who're looking at some particular public statement they've made or prayer they've made though. God gives people eternal life, and not because of public actions or private prayers. The Apostle who wrote down what Jesus said above, also wrote this:

I write these things to you who rely in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 Jn 5:13

The Apostles urge us in almost every letter to make sure of who we're trusting in. Because that's important. But they also assure us, the One in Whom Christians trust is giving us eternal life, and keeping us secure.

[Ishida]

Maybe we can't, but bring up what is "true repentance".
If one lives in sin so much, can you really trust that they were initially saved to begin with?

[PowderedGold]

If one lives in sin so much, can you really trust that they were initially saved to begin with?

What does it matter if you trust or not? What matters is whether Christ trusts that they truly repented.

[Ishida]

Yeah, you're right. But won't we be hypocrites, claiming to be with God but then doing whatever we want?

[jazzypooh]

yeah we would. we cant turn His grace into lasciviousness...

[Shiversblood]

I think Salvation is something that stays with someone forever, and cant be taken away from them.

[jazzypooh]

i believe that we are secure as long as our relationship with Him is maintained. if someone renounces God then how can they still be saved?

i had this same conversation with a deacon at my old church, and i cant understand his theology for anything. if someone accepts Christ when they're young, and then changes their mind and becomes an atheist or a buddhist, and dies in that state without ever coming back to Jesus then are they still eternally secure?

[PostTribber]

I know people won't agree with me, but you can't lose salvation. When we fall, it is the grace of God that picks us up. Salvation is a free gift and it not received through works. Jesus died for all men so that all could be forgiven of their sins. God doesn't take away our salvation if we are in habitual sin or sinning often.[/URL]

....not so sure you can't lose your salvation. if anything the Bible warns us to 'work out your own salvation with fear & trambling."
a person in habitual sin is certainly not fearful or trembling, neither are they working it out. I'b be very careful to counsel someone when it's one's eternal destiny at stake. "and the books were opened", note 2 books; the book of life, and the Lamb's book of life. and the warning is that one's name may be erased. :prayer:

[heymikey80]

What does it matter if you trust or not? What matters is whether Christ trusts that they truly repented.
Yeah, you're right. But won't we be hypocrites, claiming to be with God but then doing whatever we want?
Yes, we don't live without doubts and worries -- yet we live on the Rock that can't be shaken.

To me God's saying not to be troubled by your own doubts when you know you've trusted in Him. (1 Jn 5:13)

But it'd be a horrifying thing to try to contradict God when He says, "I never knew you." He knows who He knows. "It's a scary thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." Hypocrisy won't get you there. The bouncer at the door knows too much about you! =grin=

[heymikey80]

i believe that we are secure as long as our relationship with Him is maintained. if someone renounces God then how can they still be saved?

i had this same conversation with a deacon at my old church, and i cant understand his theology for anything. if someone accepts Christ when they're young, and then changes their mind and becomes an atheist or a buddhist, and dies in that state without ever coming back to Jesus then are they still eternally secure?
I think this is a good point to bring up, too. Just accepting Christ and getting religion for some period of time doesn't make your salvation secure. It's actually relying on Jesus alone, instead of yourself, instead of all other things.

How do you take back that reliance, if you're relying on Him alone? How does it get broken? To me it only gets broken if you're not relying on Jesus alone.

[cygnusx1]

What does it matter if you trust or not? What matters is whether Christ trusts that they truly repented.

happy birthday PowderedGold !!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :D

[PowderedGold]

Thanks very much :)

The way I see it: Christ wants all people to be saved. He doesn't want anyone to be damned. So I think that Christ will allow anyone who meets the minimum requirements into heaven. Once a person receives salvation, Christ will never take it away, because he loves that person and wants that person to come to heaven.

If you talk about God removing salvation from a person, it creates this assumption that God is watching every person, just waiting for him to slip up so he can retract that person's salvation.

However, I acknowledge it's entirely possible that a person who accepts Christ but continues to willfully sin without asking for repentance probably never truly accepted Christ in his heart. Salvation isn't being taken away, it was never given in the first place. I feel it's not a person's place to judge another's relationship with God, though, so we should pray for a person to see the error of their sinning ways rather than condemn them.

I think humans condemning other humans is one of the worst things for Christianity. Imagine how many people there are in the US, and in the world, who have rejected Christianity because they feel condemned by people they've never even met (watching televangelists, George Bush, etc.)

[Shiversblood]

I acknowledge it's entirely possible that a person who accepts Christ but continues to willfully sin without asking for repentance probably never truly accepted Christ in his heart. Salvation isn't being taken away, it was never given in the first place.

Sometimes, Christians go through rough times in thier lives. To say they were simply never saved in the first place, is like going back in time and taking away meaning from the time when they were saved. You can't know that just because someone's life is going down hill, that there was no way that he ever could have been saved, because it happens alot more than you would think. My Cousin was a very devout catholic, more then me back in the day. (When I was still catholic, Now Im Christian) Then he got into drinking heavily and never stopped, then got addicted to heroine and died in a overdose. But in my heart I know he is in heaven.

[PowderedGold]

Shiversblood, you misunderstood me. I am not trying to say that everyone who seems to be saved, but then turns to a life of sin again, was never truly saved in the first place. I am simply saying that I believe that may be the case in SOME instances. Notice in that quote I say that it's "possible" that the hypothetical person in question was never truly sincere.

I believe that most people who are saved, and then sin, were genuine in their repentance and thus continue to be saved despite sinning later on.

I hope you understand what I meant. I'm sorry for giving the wrong impression and implying something I do not mean. Regardless, I believe that whether a person appears to be saved, or claims to be saved, isn't what's important because that's just human perception of another human. If the person and God both know the repentence and acceptance of Christ is sincere, then that person is saved and that salvation will not be revoked. That's what I believe.

[DIVA_for_Christ]

....not so sure you can't lose your salvation. if anything the Bible warns us to 'work out your own salvation with fear & trambling."
a person in habitual sin is certainly not fearful or trembling, neither are they working it out. I'b be very careful to counsel someone when it's one's eternal destiny at stake. "and the books were opened", note 2 books; the book of life, and the Lamb's book of life. and the warning is that one's name may be erased. :prayer:

Amen and then there is this scripture as well:
2 Peter 2:20-22 (AMP)

20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

21For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them. 22There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

The word says it's right here, plain as day, it is better to have never known the Lord than to have known Him and then turn back away from Him. Salvation is a free gift, but just as a gift is received in the natural and can be returned to the giver so can our salvation, when we decide to walk away from our Lord.

[PowderedGold]

The word says it's right here, plain as day, it is better to have never known the Lord than to have known Him and then turn back away from Him. Salvation is a free gift, but just as a gift is received in the natural and can be returned to the giver so can our salvation, when we decide to walk away from our Lord.

So if someone has been saved, then sinned again, they should just keep on sinning for the rest of their lives because it won't make a difference anyway?

[Shiversblood]

Everyone is going to sin again after they are saved. Its human nature everyone sins every day. It makes a difference in the eyes of the Lord. He is displeased everytime we commite a sin. But he still loves us regardless.

[TheListener]

In a nutshell:

We are saved by grace.

But we do have free will.

Ergo, freely given salvation can be rejected. We nurture our salvation with works (prayer, fellowship etc).

[DIVA_for_Christ]

So if someone has been saved, then sinned again, they should just keep on sinning for the rest of their lives because it won't make a difference anyway?

Nowhere does that scripture say if you sin after you've been saved then just stay in your sin for the rest of your lifes since it won't make a difference anyway. Nowhere did I imply that either. The key word that I used was "decide".

In other words, we all already know that salvation is a free gift. Just like a gift received in the natural we can decide to return it to sender by deciding to walk away from God.

The enemy doesn't just want us dead, He wants us dead, separated from Christ.

Here is another scripture:
Ezekiel 33:12-13 (Amplified Bible)

12And you, son of man, say to your people, The uprightness and justice of the [uncompromisingly] righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; and as for the wicked lawlessness of the wicked lawless, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness, neither shall the rigidly upright and just be able to live because of his past righteousness in the day that he sins and misses the mark [in keeping in harmony and right standing with God].

13When I shall say to the [uncompromisingly] righteous that he shall surely live, and he trusts to his own righteousness [to save him] and commits iniquity (heinous sin), all his righteous deeds shall not be [seriously] remembered; but for his perversity and iniquity that he has committed he shall die.

[bigdAddyweAve423]

If I may add, Implying that one can lose there salvation, says that they do not know where it is?? For example, say you lose you car keys, that would imply that you do not know where your car keys are, right??

We know where our salvation is. So, I agree, that you cannot lose your salvation.....however, you can walk away from it.

[heymikey80]

....not so sure you can't lose your salvation. if anything the Bible warns us to 'work out your own salvation with fear & trambling."
The Bible goes on.work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Pp 2:12-13
It seems to me the fear and trembling is from God working within and not ourselves, it's not a fear that God will fail to complete what He began or that we would fail to work out our salvation.
a person in habitual sin is certainly not fearful or trembling, neither are they working it out. I'b be very careful to counsel someone when it's one's eternal destiny at stake.
I'd agree -- I'd just consider that such a person has not really come to rely on the Christ Who died a horrific death for sins. I don't think they recognize such a thing -- they may well be ignorant of it. And when they truly become aware of what they're doing, they shrink in horror from what they've done. Or they really haven't come to rely on Christ Jesus, the slain Lamb.
"and the books were opened", note 2 books; the book of life, and the Lamb's book of life. and the warning is that one's name may be erased. :prayer:
I guess I've never seen a Scripture which asserts that someone is erased from the Lamb's book of life, names written in it from the foundation of the world.

[artgaldayna]

FenderElctrc - I agree with you that you can't lose your salvation. The Bible shows that you cannot: and it does not make sense with God's personality.
You can fall into sin, but if one wallows in it (willfully and not hating the sin) then the love of the Father is not in Him and he is not a Christian. But, once we truly turn from sin and to God, we recieve the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit being in us, we will become closer to God, not abandon Him - not abandon us.

[Jere209]

After many years of studying this, and much prayer, I, too, have come to the conclusion you cannot lose your salvation. But, I've always asked the Lord what becomes of those that are living their lives in blatant sin after becoming Christians..

The Bible does teach “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. But, once someone accepts Jesus into their heart, they question every sin they commit, "will this lose my salvation?" They wonder if it is possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation. I truly believe the answer is no. Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. We refer to this as the doctrine of “eternal security", once saved, always saved.

John 3:15-18 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-3.htm) says this about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is forever, never ending.
Jesus tells us in John 10:28-30 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-10.htm#28) “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." When Christ died on the cross, He died for all sins, past, present, and future. All the sinning we are going to do was taken care of on that cross once and for all. If not, He would have to climb back on that cross again and again, and we know that's not possible.

The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful -- that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/romans-3.htm#10)). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. If we think that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation, it is unscriptural as it states in James 2:10.

Just my thoughts!
God bless
Lisa

[Shiversblood]

After many years of studying this, and much prayer, I, too, have come to the conclusion you cannot lose your salvation. But, I've always asked the Lord what becomes of those that are living their lives in blatant sin after becoming Christians..

The Bible does teach “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. But, once someone accepts Jesus into their heart, they question every sin they commit, "will this lose my salvation?" They wonder if it is possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation. I truly believe the answer is no. Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. We refer to this as the doctrine of “eternal security", once saved, always saved.

John 3:15-18 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-3.htm) says this about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is forever, never ending.
Jesus tells us in John 10:28-30 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-10.htm#28) “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." When Christ died on the cross, He died for all sins, past, present, and future. All the sinning we are going to do was taken care of on that cross once and for all. If not, He would have to climb back on that cross again and again, and we know that's not possible.

The Bible teaches that man is inherently sinful -- that a sinful nature is a part of all of us (Romans 3:10 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/romans-3.htm#10)). This means that even after being saved, every single believer is going to sin from time to time. If we think that we can live a perfect, sinless life after our salvation, it is unscriptural as it states in James 2:10.

Just my thoughts!
God bless
Lisa

I agree 100%. :amen:

[twistedsketch]

MY BROTHER,

"eternal security" is a very dangerous delusion to dangle in front of new Christians.

ephraim
Eternal security is very Biblical. Even if it were possible to lose one's salvation, it would be very hard to do so - and since Jesus called Peter back, it would be for naught anyway. A far more dangerous delusion for the new Christian is that he or she has to walk on a tight rope or else lose their salvation. That's where the devil really has his fun, making us think we've gone too far and that God is unwilling or unable to save us.

[twistedsketch]

The Bible goes on.work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Pp 2:12-13
It seems to me the fear and trembling is from God working within and not ourselves, it's not a fear that God will fail to complete what He began or that we would fail to work out our salvation.
Yes. My church teaches that the fear is more of a holy fear, an awe - that the God who made the Universe is working on you, making you perfect. It's not the terror or insecurity that the devil loves to inject into our lives.

[FenderElctrc]

The free gift of salvation is always available to us. We must remember though, we were told we are forgiven for our sins through Jesus, but we were also told that we must leave our sins. We are being hypocrites when we tell others of their sins and tell them to leave them when we have our own sins that we are captive to. Jesus said we must first take the plank out of our own eye before we look at the speck in everyone else's. Salvation is a free gift that is always available through Jesus. How could we leave our sins except through the grace of God? We can't. Salvation can't be taken away, it is always there. We must make the choice to accept it though.

[FenderElctrc]

Let me also say that if God doesn't make salvation available to us at all times, then doesn't that limit God's grace? Jesus died for us so that we could enter into God's kingdom. God doesn't just take that gift away from us. It is a free gift that is not earned, but given to. I believe Paul said this. If I find it, I post it. God is a graceful God.

[FenderElctrc]

Romans 5:12-21:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.