Don't worry about it, guys -- I'm gone

[Macrina]

Having a female pastor in your midst seems to be upsetting what was supposed to be a peaceful forum for you, so I will bow out.

For those of you who have been kind, whether or not you believed in my calling, thank you for your respect. I appreciate being treated as a sister in Christ.

For those of you who have been rude, belittling, and accused me of ungodly motivations -- I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. Insulting me isn't going to help.

At the end of the day, all I can do is go by what I know the Lord is telling me. And a small minority of posters here has made it so that my energy is going into a useless debate rather than the ministry I'm called to do. It's a shame, because I came here for fellowship, and the majority of you were ready to fellowship with me. But the minority is louder and more hurtful.

Anyone who sincerely wants to be in conversation with me may PM me.

I wish you the best in your new forum.

:wave:

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

Having a female pastor in your midst seems to be upsetting what was supposed to be a peaceful forum for you, so I will bow out.

For those of you who have been kind, whether or not you believed in my calling, thank you for your respect. I appreciate being treated as a sister in Christ.

For those of you who have been rude, belittling, and accused me of ungodly motivations -- I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. Insulting me isn't going to help.

At the end of the day, all I can do is go by what I know the Lord is telling me. And a small minority of posters here has made it so that my energy is going into a useless debate rather than the ministry I'm called to do. It's a shame, because I came here for fellowship, and the majority of you were ready to fellowship with me. But the minority is louder and more hurtful.

Anyone who sincerely wants to be in conversation with me may PM me.

I wish you the best in your new forum.

:wave:
Macrina please don't leave!

My mother is a retired Pastor...it has been a difficult road for her in some respects. But I'm proud of her and you know what? In her situation she is what she is because a man wouldn't step up to the plate.

I don't think this necessarily makes my mother a liberal...in fact she's quite the opposite. She's a servant.

[Criada]

:hug: :hug:
Love you, sister - and hope you reconsider and don't let the minority win!
Cos we really would like to have you here!

[~*Lady Trekki*~]

:hug: :hug:
Love you, sister - and hope you reconsider and don't let the minority win!
Cos we really would like to have you here!
:amen:

[porterross]

Macrina

Obviously, given the faith icon I display, I adhere to a doctrine that does not allow women to be ordained. For me it is also a personal matter of choice. I'm that way about most female physicians, too, not sure why. :scratch:

However, I don't like that your ministry has been attacked or your efforts and calling discounted here. If you feel called to serve God in this capacity, your denomination allows it and a congregation welcomes you, it is not anyone's place to harass you.

Would I be comfortable with a female pastor? Not that I can imagine, but then that's one of the reasons I remain in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

Just my $0.02

God bless you. :pray:

[Brennin]

This is my first time checking out this forum, but I am sorry for any ill-treatment you received while participating here.

[GreenMunchkin]

Mac, what happened? I haven't been online all day.

I love you, lady, and you are an incredible woman of God.

[meh]

Oh please don't go :( We all just got here. I don't know what has gone on, but when I was on staff you are someone whose posts I was always glad to see come up. :hug:

[catofhope]

:hug: :hug: Mac :hug: :hug:

So sorry for bad treatment against you.

I have not been online all day either.

Thinking I do not want to check into the women ordination thread.

[GreenMunchkin]

Sweetie, you epitomize what this forum is about.

Don't allow bullies to chase you away.

Bullies are afraid, and need to be shown compassion and love, especially by the very people they attack.

Stay, ok? Love them, because they need that so badly.

A million, trillion hugs.

xxx

[4Everloved]

Stay, Macrina. We need you.

Please stay.

[Greenthumb]

Macrina...I'm so sorry you've been treated this way. :( I wish you would stay. There will be lots of other places here for you to post in. I myself will probably be staying out of those other threads as well. I may read them, but I no longer will be posting in them. But I will understand if you don't want to stay. :hug: God bless you.

[~free~]

Mac, if YOU know that you are following Gods will for your life, who give a rats tail what anyone else thinks of it? You are SO pleasing to God!! PLEASE, don't go!!! We need people like you!!!

[4Everloved]

We do need you; please don't go. Please pray about staying. Your input and good character is needed.

You help me to remember to bid God's calling no matter what He asks me to do. Your example helps me to remember to care much more what GOD thinks than what man thinks. Please, please stay. You are an important part of CF.

[John1and1]

No one attacked her 'ministry'

She saw fit to post in a conservative forum, that upholds conservative tradition and scripture. The thread concerned women pastoring a church and she was pressed to give scripture declaring her position.

Asking for scripture to prove a point of doctrine certainly does not constitute 'attacking her ministry'.

If one supports a doctrine not supported by scripture, and yet chooses to act as though its a personal attack to ask for scripture in a discussion, then i would say we need to grow a bit thicker skin. If it is a matter of personal offence on the other hand, just because people take scripture literally in a conservative forum, i would say the offence isnt coming from the poster, but rather the gospel, given the fact your ministry was not personally attacked by any poster. If you disagree, paste this attack against your ministry please.

Threads like this seem to be more of a special pleading or an emotional thing in an effort to cause people to compromise their doctrine, if we cant ask one to be accountable enough to provide a passage of scripture.

[porterross]

Her behavior has been far more admirable than those who disagree with her ordination. This is what causes many to be turned off by self-described conservative churches.

Shouting Scriptural adherence is not synonymous with being Christ-like. It can easily become the same trap the Pharisees kept themselves in by which to judge others and that benefits no one.

You weren't quick enough on the edit button. :sigh:

[John1and1]

Her behavior has been far more admirable than those who disagree with her ordination. This is what causes many to be turned off by self-described conservative churches.

Shouting Scriptural adherence is not synonymous with being Christ-like. It can easily become the same trap the Pharisees kept themselves in by which to judge others and that benefits no one.

You weren't quick enough on the edit button. :sigh:
If you believe her behavoir is admiral this is good. I note though that you have nothiing to paste showing her ministry was attacked and this is the crux of the issue

[Simon_Templar]

Having a female pastor in your midst seems to be upsetting what was supposed to be a peaceful forum for you, so I will bow out.

For those of you who have been kind, whether or not you believed in my calling, thank you for your respect. I appreciate being treated as a sister in Christ.

For those of you who have been rude, belittling, and accused me of ungodly motivations -- I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. Insulting me isn't going to help.

At the end of the day, all I can do is go by what I know the Lord is telling me. And a small minority of posters here has made it so that my energy is going into a useless debate rather than the ministry I'm called to do. It's a shame, because I came here for fellowship, and the majority of you were ready to fellowship with me. But the minority is louder and more hurtful.

Anyone who sincerely wants to be in conversation with me may PM me.

I wish you the best in your new forum.

:wave:
You personally were never the issue. The conversation existed before you came in, and people got heated before you ever posted.

If you don't feel the forum will be productive for you, thats something you have to decide for yourself. Don't imagine, however, that you or your presence were the issue, or the cause of the contention.

[GreenMunchkin]

Sweetie, don't be bullied into leaving, please?

You are a conservative Christian, with so much love. This forum is yours as much as anybody else's.

Love you, sis.

[porterross]

If you believe her behavoir is admiral this is good. I note though that you have nothiing to paste showing her ministry was attacked and this is the crux of the issue


The crux of your issue seems to be your desire to make your point.


Refusal to acknowledge her (or her church's) perspective on her ordination and seeing as how she does hold an office of ministry in her church, is indeed an attack on that ministry.

[John1and1]

The crux of your issue seems to be your desire to make your point.


Refusal to acknowledge her (or her church's) perspective on her ordination and seeing as how she does hold an office of ministry in her church, is indeed an attack on that ministry.


Her perspective was acknowledged. And we asked for scripture to back her perspective.

Surely you dont suggest that acknowledging a perspective does not negate our responsibility to ask what scriptures her perspectives are based on?


Is her perspective for some reason above public critique if placed publicly in a conservative forum? I dont understand your point here could you clarify this for me?

[Hishandmaiden]

Having a female pastor in your midst seems to be upsetting what was supposed to be a peaceful forum for you, so I will bow out.

For those of you who have been kind, whether or not you believed in my calling, thank you for your respect. I appreciate being treated as a sister in Christ.

For those of you who have been rude, belittling, and accused me of ungodly motivations -- I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. Insulting me isn't going to help.

At the end of the day, all I can do is go by what I know the Lord is telling me. And a small minority of posters here has made it so that my energy is going into a useless debate rather than the ministry I'm called to do. It's a shame, because I came here for fellowship, and the majority of you were ready to fellowship with me. But the minority is louder and more hurtful.

Anyone who sincerely wants to be in conversation with me may PM me.

I wish you the best in your new forum.

:wave:
Sister, I believe that God prefers to use a man to pastor a church rather than a woman. But if you are my pastor, and God calls you to the task, I will respect you for what He had called you to do and not be surprised that He had called you.

I know sometimes, God does use women to be a pastor, like He uses Deborah in judges, I just think He tends to prefer to use men.

[Hishandmaiden]

Oh, by the way, we can love and welcome one another even if we differ in our opinions.

[Hishandmaiden]

No one attacked her 'ministry'

She saw fit to post in a conservative forum, that upholds conservative tradition and scripture. The thread concerned women pastoring a church and she was pressed to give scripture declaring her position.

Asking for scripture to prove a point of doctrine certainly does not constitute 'attacking her ministry'.

If one supports a doctrine not supported by scripture, and yet chooses to act as though its a personal attack to ask for scripture in a discussion, then i would say we need to grow a bit thicker skin. If it is a matter of personal offence on the other hand, just because people take scripture literally in a conservative forum, i would say the offence isnt coming from the poster, but rather the gospel, given the fact your ministry was not personally attacked by any poster. If you disagree, paste this attack against your ministry please.

Threads like this seem to be more of a special pleading or an emotional thing in an effort to cause people to compromise their doctrine, if we cant ask one to be accountable enough to provide a passage of scripture.
We can disagree with her position, but part of the scripture is also to show grace and love to all believers. In speaking the truth, we must speak in love.

We don't water down on our positions, but we accept that none of us is perfect, and that we love each other and speak of truth with grace and patience and love, as what Christ does often with us.

This is a hard balance, but it is something we must learn to do. When speaking truth, we are not speaking it to correct errors, we are speaking it also out of love. The tone in which we use, the attitudes through which we speak it, matter.

Truth must always be spoken with love for the other person.

(This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, brother, or to offend you. )

[GreenMunchkin]

:hug:

Love you. x

[John1and1]

We can disagree with her position, but part of the scripture is also to show grace and love to all believers. In speaking the truth, we must speak in love.

We don't water down on our positions, but we accept that none of us is perfect, and that we love each other and speak of truth with grace and patience and love, as what Christ does often with us.

This is a hard balance, but it is something we must learn to do. When speaking truth, we are not speaking it to correct errors, we are speaking it also out of love. The tone in which we use, the attitudes through which we speak it, matter.

Truth must always be spoken with love for the other person.

(This is not meant to be a personal attack on you, brother, or to offend you. )

I dont take your post at all as a personal attack thank you, it is a good reminder

I completely agree, and she was not spoken to in any hateful derrogitory way, but 3 from her side of the issue certainly were personally attacking 3 from my side of the issue and i can post the quotes.

No one spoke to her out of love in asking for a scripture, that was a straight up request. and when i simply asked not to be directed to her blog, but please give a scripture to back your position,he decided to take this as a personal attack and then started this thread FALSELY stating we had attacked her ministry. If you note, no quote of any attack on her ministry can be posted here.

Whats this show you?

[GreenMunchkin]

Love you, sis.

You're an awesome woman of God :clap:

[desmalia]

.

[Macrina]

Thank you everybody who PMed me or sent rep messages and told me you were supporting me in this thread. I do sincerely appreciate it. From some of the comments I've gotten privately, I think perhaps my reasons weren't clear, so I'll make another post to try and explain:

This isn't about whether or not people will accept my ministry without question. It's not even that people have insulted me personally, per se. Those things have never made me doubt my calling and they have long since ceased to "hurt my feelings" the way an insult normally would. This goes to a couple of other, and deeper, issues:

For one thing, fending off accusations takes a great deal of energy, no matter how unfounded the accusations are. That energy, and the time it takes to respond, might better be put towards other purposes. Some time back, I thought collecting my posts in a sort of "FAQ" might be helpful, but that has proven a failure. Besides, this is far from the only issue that people get heated up about, and I can't possibly do that much writing for every one of them.

Secondly, there is the matter of what is "conservative." It has been said that there is only one acceptable conservative position on women's ordination, and those of us who hold a different position should not be allowed to discuss our views on this board. If it were just this one issue, I could probably live with it -- but what happens the next time I don't toe the "party line" that someone thinks every conservative should? Can any dissent be shut down simply by saying "that's not the conservative position, and you have no right to present it here?" My feeling is that if a conservative Christian posts a thread asking other conservative Christians for their opinions, then any conservative Christian should be able to participate in a discussion about the meaning of scripture. If in such a circumstance, I can be accused of bringing liberal attacks merely by asking for a little civility, then what's to prevent people from demanding rigid adherence to particular doctrine in other matters? That thread would have been awfully flavorless if the only people allowed to post were those who were against female pastors. Silencing the opposition might make some people happy, but it's not a realistic approach when conservatives have different interpretations of scripture. So, if I am only allowed to voice those opinions which meet with the approval of certain fundamentalist members who think they can decide what the party line is, then how can I know what topics I can post on? Are we to exclude theistic evolutionists, for example? People who like to have rock music in church? Women who braid their hair? Who gets to draw the line and demand what is and is not an essential conservative position, and what is up for discussion? At some point, the party line has got to stop if you want to have real discussion, even amongst people who all identify as conservatives. We are not all going to be identical.

Finally, and most importantly, it's about the mean-spiritedness that has been allowed on this forum. No Christian community should cannibalize itself like this. Unfortunately, conservatives all too easily fall into the trap of "my way or the highway," because we are assured that we have God on our side. But no matter how right we think we are, it never, ever excuses us from the requirement to extend grace to each other. It grieves me that the people who claim to adhere most to scriptural principles are the ones with the worst reputation for hate-mongering and condemnation. I hoped that having this forum, as separate from the fundamentalist forum, would allow for a variety of conservatives to co-exist in a community. But if such ugly attitudes are permitted to flourish here, there cannot be true community.

It grieves me when I see this on any issue -- creation/evolution in Origins Theology, Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox in General Theology, etc -- so it's not just this one. If it were commonly understood that conservative Christians could, in good faith, differ on biblical interpretation, that would be a different matter. If we could speak Christ to each other in our conversations, I would treasure it. But insults and demands that everyone who wants to discuss must conform to one perspective or else they don't belong in the conversation? I don't see the grace in that.

I'm taking a break from posting on CF for awhile, because it seems like the entire forum is filled with far too much hate. If when I come back there is grace extended within this forum, I would still like to have a "congregational" home. If there is acceptance that there is more than one "conservative" view on some matters, and a refusal to stand for mean-spirited posts, then I might try again. But hopefully this has helped clarify why this does not feel like a welcoming place for me right now.

I will be unsubscribing (again) from this thread, so if you would like to reply, please do so via PM. Again, I appreciate the encouragement and friendship; I hope that someday this will be a grace-filled forum where we can talk together in peace.

[John1and1]

I would say this is more about the fact you clicked into a thread, knowing this is a conservative board, dealing with the question 'should a woman pastor a church?' If you are unaware of the conservative viewpoint regarding this, i certainly dont see how it is the fault of the conservative posters. I do however, believe you know the conservative stance.

You were not 'insulted' nor was your 'ministry attacked'. You were asked for scripture, but rather than posting scrpture for your stand you referred me to a blog. I AGAIN asked for scripture, and you left in a huff, and came here posting to everyone accusing people of attacking' your ministry'

THAT was the accusation and it is completely wrong. Asking you to present scripture backing your stance is in no wise 'attacking' anything, unless you believe you are beyond question and we should simply accept your doctrine no matter if there is scripture to back it or not.

I clearly do not understand your points here.

[Macrina]

I would say this is more about the fact you clicked into a thread, knowing this is a conservative board, dealing with the question 'should a woman pastor a church?' If you are unaware of the conservative viewpoint regarding this, i certainly dont see how it is the fault of the conservative posters. I do however, believe you know the conservative stance.

You were not 'insulted' nor was your 'ministry attacked'. You were asked for scripture, but rather than posting scrpture for your stand you referred me to a blog. I AGAIN asked for scripture, and you left in a huff, and came here posting to everyone accusing people of attacking' your ministry'

THAT was the accusation and it is completely wrong. Asking you to present scripture backing your stance is in no wise 'attacking' anything, unless you believe you are beyond question and we should simply accept your doctrine no matter if there is scripture to back it or not.

I clearly do not understand your points here.

Dude, I attempted to give you a number of scriptures and well-articulated answers to your questions. I attempted to show you how a conservative Christian can hold the opinion that I do. Simply because you did not like how I presented the scriptures doesn't mean that I didn't present them.

I am now unsubscribing and won't be back, so feel free to have the last word.

[John1and1]

Dude, I attempted to give you a number of scriptures and well-articulated answers to your questions. I attempted to show you how a conservative Christian can hold the opinion that I do. Simply because you did not like how I presented the scriptures doesn't mean that I didn't present them.

I am now unsubscribing and won't be back, so feel free to have the last word.


I am here straightening out the facts of your opening post

Therefore i give you 2 challenges, which i wager go unanswered


1) Go to that thread and copy and paste here the scriptures you used to say a female can postor a church and exercize authority over men

2) Post any personaly attack against 'your ministry'


If you cant do either what is the point of the accusations in this thread?

[GreenMunchkin]

Still praying you'll come back, sis :hug: :kiss:

[~free~]

Still praying you'll come back, sis :hug: :kiss:As am I!!! :hug::hug::hug:

[BelindaP]

I am here straightening out the facts of your opening post

Therefore i give you 2 challenges, which i wager go unanswered


1) Go to that thread and copy and paste here the scriptures you used to say a female can postor a church and exercize authority over men

2) Post any personaly attack against 'your ministry'


If you cant do either what is the point of the accusations in this thread?

You may not see yourself as attacking, but you have single-handedly convinced me, a conservative Christian, to completely avoid this forum as long as you are here. Your posts were nasty, condescending and showed very little Christian charity. The fact that you justify your nastiness with God's word is despicable.

FWIW, I agree with your position, just not your demeanor.

[Sothron]

I will be honest, I have not seen anyone "attack" her or her ministry on this forum. Asking for Scripture is not tantamount to a personal attack. Obviously as an Orthodox Christian I do not believe in female ordination but I do not think one disagreement on an issue should drive someone from this forum.

There is no possible way everyone here can agree what "conservative" means in every single facet of religious life.

[4Everloved]

What are you men so threatened about? What is actually bothering you?

And if you were an ordained pastor, would it not bother you to have people question you rudely at a christian forum where you were active?

[John1and1]

What are you men so threatened about? What is actually bothering you?

And if you were an ordained pastor, would it not bother you to have people question you rudely at a christian forum where you were active?



What threatens me? Nothing but disobedience to God


What is bothering me?
That people claiming to believe God, claiming He is important to them, seem to put personal pride over their perported love, so that not only do they not esteem His word over their own 'feelings', but that they also see fit to say asking for a passage of scripture is a personal attack, and conservatives, posting in a conservative forum are ridiculed because they believe God and take Him at His word.

But actually i dont even let that bother me much. I will just shoot it down as it comes and do it with scripture, not personal justification

[Sothron]

What are you men so threatened about? What is actually bothering you?

And if you were an ordained pastor, would it not bother you to have people question you rudely at a christian forum where you were active?

To be honest if I was a female pastor and I was posting in an interfaith message board I would have to reasonably expect other posters to question about my status since not all faiths believe in female ordination.

I will also submit again that simply asking for a Scripture backing to your rights to be ordained does not merit "rudeness" unless the context calls for it. Simply asking does not.

[NewGuy101]

Being a reformed Christian I know that most of them hold a complimenterian view of scripture while I hold an egalitarian view. I'm glad to see we have sisters out there doing God's work. I really hope that you don't leave. I hope that your complimenterian brothers and sisters open minds to preaching the Gosple rather than legalism. :prayer:

[NewGuy101]

I honestly think that because of ancient tradition that there wasn't many women in leadership. I can see this by how God used these women in the past...

Deborah

Meaning: a bee

Deborah was a judge (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/judge.html) and prophetess (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/prophet.html), the "wife" (woman?) of Lapidoth (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/lapidoth.html). Jabin (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/jabin.html), the king of Hazor (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hazor.html), had for twenty years held Israel (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/israel.html) in degrading subjection. The spirit of patriotism seemed crushed out of the nation. In this emergency, Deborah roused the people from their lethargy. Her fame spread far and wide. She became a "mother in Israel" (Judg. 4:6 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/judg4.html#6), 14 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/judg4.html#14); 5:7 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/judg5.html#7)), and "the children of Israel came up to her for judgment" as she sat in her tent under the palm tree "between Ramah (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/rama.html) and Bethel (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/bethel.html)."
Preparations were everywhere made by her direction for the great effort to throw off the yoke of bondage (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/bondage.html). She summoned Barak (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/barak.html) from Kadesh (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/kadesh.html) to take the command of 10,000 men of Zebulun (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/zebulun.html) and Naphtali (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/naphtali.html), and lead them to Mount Tabor (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/tabor.html) on the plain of Esdraelon (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/esdraelon.html) at its northeast end.
With his aid she organized this army. She gave the signal for attack, and the Hebrew host rushed down impetuously upon the army of Jabin (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/jabin.html), which was commanded by Sisera (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/sisera.html), and gained a great and decisive victory. The Canaanitish (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/canaanite.html) army almost wholly perished. That was a great and ever-memorable day in Israel.
In Judges 5 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/judg5.html) is given the grand triumphal ode, the "song of Deborah," which she wrote in grateful commemoration of that great deliverance.


Anna
Meaning: grace.
This is the name of an aged widow mentioned in the Bible. She was the daughter of Phanuel (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/phanuel.html). She was a "prophetess (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/prophet.html)."

After seven years of married life her husband died, and during her long widowhood she daily attended the temple (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/temple.html) services. When she was eighty-four years old, she entered the temple at the moment when the aged Simeon (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/simeon.html) uttered his memorable words of praise and thanks to God that he had fulfilled his ancient promise in sending his Son into the world (Luke 2:36-37 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/luke2.html#36)).

Huldah

Meaning: weasel (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/weasel.html)
This was the name of a prophetess (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/prophet.html) -- the wife of Shallum (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/shallum.html). She was consulted regarding the "book of the law" discovered by the high priest (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/highpriest.html) Hilkiah (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hilkiah.html) (2 Kings 22:14-20 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/2ki22.html#14); 2 Chr. 34:22-28 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/2chr34.html#22)). She resided in that part of Jerusalem (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/jerusalem.html) called the Mishneh (A.V., "the college (http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/college.html);" Revised Version., "the second quarter"), supposed by some to be the suburb between the inner and the outer wall, the second or lower city, Akra.

[John1and1]

Being a reformed Christian I know that most of them hold a complimenterian view of scripture while I hold an egalitarian view. I'm glad to see we have sisters out there doing God's work. I really hope that you don't leave. I hope that your complimenterian brothers and sisters open minds to preaching the Gosple rather than legalism. :prayer:



NewGuy

I hope you dont mind a couple questions intended to draw out the point being made.


Repent and be baptized... if we conform to this are we conforming to legalism? What are the consequences of not conforming to this standard?

Also, which command of God would you deem as having been 'unimportant?

[NewGuy101]

NewGuy

I hope you dont mind a couple questions intended to draw out the point being made.


Repent and be baptized... if we conform to this are we conforming to legalism? What are the consequences of not conforming to this standard?

Also, which command of God would you deem as having been 'unimportant?
Are you seriously comparing repenting and coming into salvation to a person leading the church?

I don't deem any command as unimportnat I just see the difference between cultural significance of a day to essential doctrine...we all hold different views to different aspects of scripture we should focus on the essentials.

[John1and1]

Are you seriously comparing repenting and coming into salvation to a person leading the church?

I don't deem any command as unimportnat I just see the difference between cultural significance of a day to essential doctrine...we all hold different views to different aspects of scripture we should focus on the essentials.



Ok

I have an answer for the 3rd quesiton, which is that you do not deem any command of God as unimportant.

This means then that since we see in scripture, that the priesthood for instance, is limited to the sons of Levi and the sons of Aaron, that the exclusion of women is not an unimportant command of God. This has been Hebrew tradition, by command of God, for 3400 years or more. It further means that you deem it as an important command since you see no command of God as unimportant. Is this correct?


You also agree with me that to repent and be baptized is important since every command of God is imprtant. Is this true?

[NewGuy101]

Ok

I have an answer for the 3rd quesiton, which is that you do not deem any command of God as unimportant.

This means then that since we see in scripture, that the priesthood for instance, is limited to the sons of Levi and the sons of Aaron, that the exclusion of women is not an unimportant command of God. This has been Hebrew tradition, by command of God, for 3400 years or more. It further means that you deem it as an important command since you see no command of God as unimportant. Is this correct?


You also agree with me that to repent and be baptized is important since every command of God is imprtant. Is this true?
Do you not consider prophets as leaders who speak for God?

And yes every command is important, but some issues are not as clear like this one. We should focus on what is clear.

[John1and1]

Do you not consider prophets as leaders who speak for God?

And yes every command is important, but some issues are not as clear like this one. We should focus on what is clear.



The scriptures are very clear in referance to offices and callings, and a prophet is not the same as a pastor or a teacher. A pastor is the captain of that particular ship, in the Master's royal Navy. A pastor must weild some command over people and just as the man is head over the woman in the family, a pastor is head over the flock he tends.

Paul is very clear, issueing commands to the pastors of churches, commands which demand usurping power over the flock. Paul told Timothy what to teach and preach, he wrote to the corinthean church, telling them to demand a man repent or else have no company with him. He writes back later commanding to restore the same repentant brother. A female is not to usurp authority over the husband nor over the flock among whom are men.

Now if you are in agreement with me that God's command to Israel was indeed not unimportant, that ONLY sons of Aaron and Levi could perform as priests, why would you deem it unimportant that He sets the same order in a church that is really the same congregation of believers that Moses is among?

[NewGuy101]

The scriptures are very clear in referance to offices and callings, and a prophet is not the same as a pastor or a teacher. A pastor is the captain of that particular ship, in the Master's royal Navy. A pastor must weild some command over people and just as the man is head over the woman in the family, a pastor is head over the flock he tends. I don't see a reason while a Godly woman can't do this.

Paul is very clear, issueing commands to the pastors of churches, commands which demand usurping power over the flock. Paul told Timothy what to teach and preach, he wrote to the corinthean church, telling them to demand a man repent or else have no company with him. He writes back later commanding to restore the same repentant brother. A female is not to usurp authority over the husband nor over the flock among whom are men.Pauls commands are affected by cultural view. I suggest you post scripture so we can further discuss this topic in context.

Now if you are in agreement with me that God's command to Israel was indeed not unimportant, that ONLY sons of Aaron and Levi could perform as priests, why would you deem it unimportant that He sets the same order in a church that is really the same congregation of believers that Moses is among? Two examples based on Jewish culture. Why aren't you taking prophetess into account?

[John1and1]

I don't see a reason while a Godly woman can't do this.


So then you do see at least one command of God as unimportant.

This would be the one that she learn in silence in the church and does not usurp authority over men.

Now the question is, by what criteria do you establish that this command of God is unimportant. Is it because you esteem the old testament in higher regard than the new? Is it that you believe God had good reason for establishing the priesthood as a priesthood made up of only men, but He had no good reason for establishing the same order in the church?

Also, do you realize that the church is nothing more than sect of the Jews? This is twice stated in the book of acts. So why do you deem it as inconsistant or improper when it is firmly established for 3400 years?

Did Sarah perform sacrifice or did Abraham? Why did Sarah not perform sacrifice? Because it was commanded of Abraham by God Himself.


You have the word of God and 3500 years of established tradition based on the command of God which you say you deem as important. I suggest you not write this one off based on a feeling of unfairness.

[intricatic]

You'll have that problem anywhere you go. People will haunt you and hurl antagonisms of you and call you all sorts of derogatory terms because your beliefs or your convictions contradict their own. Nothing new under the sun.

:hug: I know this section of the site will definitely be less without you, though.

[John1and1]

what hurling antagonisms are you referring to? The one which did not take place against her ministry as it is claimed, or the claim itself?

No one came against anyone's ministry. She was asked for a scripture declaring her position, nothing more.