Evil committed in the name of God.

[deathtotheworld]

My friends have brought some of these things up to me and have made me start questioning what I believe, and I have no answer for them when they ask me these things. I was hoping someone here would have an answer and or could share their thoughts on these subjects with me.

In the Old Testament God floods the world destroying about 99% of the population on earth recorded in the story of Noahs Ark. Is this not genocide and if so how is it not wrong? And to me the Bible seems to imply God created the world somehow not knowing he would have to destroy 99% of the population.

other examples of genocide being commanded by God: Deut 7:1-2, Joshua 6:21, Joshua 10:40-41, Genesis 19, 1 Samuel 27:8-9

In the story involving Isaac God ordered Abraham to kill his son in order to test his faith. Did he not already now the faith of Abraham and this still seems like a horrible thing to put a family through.

Mass murder of the first born of Egypt. Exod 12:29-30.
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

Mass murder of 42 little children 2 Kings 2:23-24.
"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Mass murder of the midianite children and rape Numbers 32: 1-18
"...And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Mass murder of Babylonian babies: In Psalms 137:8-9 God is asked to bless those who would bash Babylonian babies against stones in an act of mass infanticide.

Also I have heard some Serbian Orthodox quoted the book of joshua to justify the slaughter of muslims in Bosnia. Claiming it was Gods will to slay the infidels.

There are more. But mainly it comes down to why did God condone and regulate human slavery, oppresion of women, execution and oppresion of homosexuals, transfering sin from guilty to innocent people, and other things that would seem immoral by todays standards?

[JustinHesychast]

Well, firstly, welcome to TAW! ^_^ Love the name.

I'll stand aside and let someone answer that for you. ;)


May you bear the fruit of the Passion,
Love, in IC XC,
Justin

[deathtotheworld]

Thank you! :D

[Sipahi]

There are more. But mainly it comes down to why did God condone and regulate human slavery, oppresion of women, execution and oppresion of homosexuals, transfering sin from guilty to innocent people, and other things that would seem immoral by todays standards?

Why are you evaluating God according to today's standard? Is there any reason to believe that the modern majority moral views are some sort of absolute truth?

(since this is not a religion-specific answer, I hope nobody minds me making this post)

[deathtotheworld]

Genocide and rape and killing of innocent babies just seems to be obviously a wrong thing to me. I also grew up believeing the Bible taught that these things were evil and wrong. I never thought about it untill athiest friends of mine starting bringing it up to me and I am left with no answer to give them which leaves me looking like an idiot.

[Breaking Babylon]

The only thing I can actually answer for you is in regards Psalm 137. The Babylonian infants are not human children. Crushing the heads of the infants of Babylon is in reference to demons.

There's a quote from a Saint that speaks about how the Jesus prayer crushes the heads of the infants of spiritual Babylon. The Bible doesn't support infanticide.

As for the rest, I honestly can't give an answer.

[nutroll]

My friends have brought some of these things up to me and have made me start questioning what I believe, and I have no answer for them when they ask me these things. I was hoping someone here would have an answer and or could share their thoughts on these subjects with me.

As a little bit of a preface to what has turned into a fairly long reply, I wanted to welcome you to TAW. I also want to point out that I'm sure there are many other people on here with patristic sources they can point to, or with much greater knowledge of the Bible, but I wanted to address some of the points brought up as I have thought a lot about them myself. I am a pacifist, and as such, some of these things have been difficult for me to reconcile, but I have done so.

In the Old Testament God floods the world destroying about 99% of the population on earth recorded in the story of Noahs Ark. Is this not genocide and if so how is it not wrong? And to me the Bible seems to imply God created the world somehow not knowing he would have to destroy 99% of the population.
The story of Noah's ark would not be genocide. Genocide refers to one group of people killing another whole group of people. By your friends' standard, one could say that God is responsible for every single person that has ever lived and will live because everyone that is born into this world will die. Rather, we need to look at why we die. We die because we sin. How we die may vary from person to person, but everyone in the story of Noah would eventually have died anyway.

God created the world perfect, we corrupted it, and the story of Noah shows us that even if God were to wipe out all of humanity except for enough of a remnant to rebuild it, it would not eliminate sin from the world. Whether you look at the flood as allegory or historical fact, the point is that sin is so much a part of our world, that God cannot just remove sin from the world by getting rid of bad people.


other examples of genocide being commanded by God: Deut 7:1-2, Joshua 6:21, Joshua 10:40-41, Genesis 19, 1 Samuel 27:8-9Most of the verses here refer to the "ban." When the Israelites reached the Promised Land, they were instructed to kill everyone. While on the surface, this seems horrible, one needs only to look at many of the troubled regions in our world to realize that when one group conquers another, the two groups will not live side by side in peace. I would imagine that the reason for the ban is so that the Israelites could live in peace, and so that in the long run, more lives could be spared. This of course, is my take on the ban, I can't say for certain what the actual reason was, but one need not assume that God is a malevolent being because of this. As for the other verses, in the 1 Samuel citation, David is killing everyone so as not to be discovered as a traitor. It is plain from the context that this is his reason for doing so. The Genesis citation refers to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which was because of their wickedness. There is also the story of Abraham negotiating with God for God to spare the cities if there are righteous people there. There weren't.

There is no doubt that some of these stories are difficult to evaluate through our modern eyes, but that has more to do with the world that we live in than with the scriptures themselves.

In the story involving Isaac God ordered Abraham to kill his son in order to test his faith. Did he not already now the faith of Abraham and this still seems like a horrible thing to put a family through.Of course God knew Abraham's faith. However, we each have free will. We can choose to depend on God or to not depend on God. It is for our sake that we are tested. It is for us to learn to depend on God. I'm sure it was a horrible thing for Abraham to experience as he walked up the mountain. However, how wonderful it must have been when he realized that God would provide for him and his family.

Mass murder of the first born of Egypt. Exod 12:29-30.
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."The Pharaoh had every opportunity to comply with the demand to free the Israelites. Each time a plague was threatened, it came to pass. When Moses said that God would kill Egypt's firstborn sons, he should have let the people go. He didn't. Was this too harsh? Who am I to judge God? Again, none of us is guaranteed a certain number of days on this earth. We can die at any time.

Mass murder of 42 little children 2 Kings 2:23-24.
"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
The children were mocking God and his prophet. They were not innocent little angels. However, this story appears to be one of those enigmatic stories in scripture that has very little context. That makes it very difficult to determine what the story was meant to convey besides that mocking God and his Prophets is not a good idea.

Mass murder of the midianite children and rape Numbers 32: 1-18
"...And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."Again I suspect that this was to prevent future violence. To have kept them alive would have created more problems at a later time. The part about "these caused the children of Israel" shows that there were problems when captives were kept. I'm sure that male children would be seen as dangerous because they might grow up and want to avenge their families. I think the implication is that female children either would not or could not avenge their families. I may be wrong, but I don't see a mention of rape here. It says to keep the female children alive for yourselves, I could be wrong, but I don't think that rape is the only interpretation of that.

Mass murder of Babylonian babies: In Psalms 137:8-9 God is asked to bless those who would bash Babylonian babies against stones in an act of mass infanticide. This psalm speaks against a group of people that violently oppressed the Israelites, that tore them from their land. It does not ask God to bless those who would bash Babylonian babies with stones. It is more like saying that no matter what bad things might happen to them, they deserve every bit of it. The children can also be seen as referring to later generations of Babylonians, and that defeating a current generation is like killing off the later generations (children).

Also I have heard some Serbian Orthodox quoted the book of joshua to justify the slaughter of muslims in Bosnia. Claiming it was Gods will to slay the infidels. I can't speak to this one as I am not Serbian, and don't even know that many Serbians.

There are more. But mainly it comes down to why did God condone and regulate human slavery, oppresion of women, execution and oppresion of homosexuals, transfering sin from guilty to innocent people, and other things that would seem immoral by todays standards?The basic problem here is that there is so much written in scripture that a person who wants to dismiss it can grab a few things here and there and make it look like all of the Bible, and all of Christianity (and Judaism) is crazy for putting trust in such a flawed book. Fortunately, the Bible is not composed of only those verses. There is much in the Bible that is confusing and disturbing on the surface. The easiest solution is to just get rid of it all, and pretend like it has no use for modern enlightened minds. The next easiest way is to excise all that we don't like, and pretend that only the good parts matter. The truly difficult approach is to understand that even the disturbing things can teach us something. I don't believe that God is malevolent, I don't think that God wants us to commit mass murder. I don't believe that God wants all of us to die at His hands. It might be easy to think that the reason I don't believe these things is because I ignore everything in the Bible that goes against this belief, but the reality is that I know what God has done for us, even to the point of becoming man to die for our sakes, destroying death. I know God in my heart as well, and God is not malevolent. Part of being a Christian is seeing the benevolent God in some of the worst situations imaginable.

I would imagine that it is very difficult to choose between the respect of your friends, and the love of God. When I was in high school, only one of my friends was an atheist, and he was very interested in religion from the standpoint of its cultural relevance. As such, he was not constantly mocking the faith of others, he simply didn't believe it himself. It is amazing to me to see the hatred towards religion of so many atheists today. It saddens me that they feel the need to tear down your beliefs. It will not make them any more right in their beliefs, and hopefully will not sway you from your beliefs. Ultimately, however, we all will face ridicule from time to time for our beliefs, but don't forget that we are blessed when people revile and persecute us.

[Protoevangel]

Who are you to judge God?

[nestoj]

My friends have brought some of these things up to me and have made me start questioning what I believe, and I have no answer for them when they ask me these things. I was hoping someone here would have an answer and or could share their thoughts on these subjects with me.

In the Old Testament God floods the world destroying about 99% of the population on earth recorded in the story of Noahs Ark. Is this not genocide and if so how is it not wrong? And to me the Bible seems to imply God created the world somehow not knowing he would have to destroy 99% of the population.

other examples of genocide being commanded by God: Deut 7:1-2, Joshua 6:21, Joshua 10:40-41, Genesis 19, 1 Samuel 27:8-9

In the story involving Isaac God ordered Abraham to kill his son in order to test his faith. Did he not already now the faith of Abraham and this still seems like a horrible thing to put a family through.

Mass murder of the first born of Egypt. Exod 12:29-30.
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

Mass murder of 42 little children 2 Kings 2:23-24.
"And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

Mass murder of the midianite children and rape Numbers 32: 1-18
"...And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Mass murder of Babylonian babies: In Psalms 137:8-9 God is asked to bless those who would bash Babylonian babies against stones in an act of mass infanticide.

Also I have heard some Serbian Orthodox quoted the book of joshua to justify the slaughter of muslims in Bosnia. Claiming it was Gods will to slay the infidels.

There are more. But mainly it comes down to why did God condone and regulate human slavery, oppresion of women, execution and oppresion of homosexuals, transfering sin from guilty to innocent people, and other things that would seem immoral by todays standards?
Well, I think, God cares more about salvation of the soul then of the body. If million of us are already lost, and there is one good and faithfull man, should we be spared and then corrupt that one man. Remember Sodom and Gomor??? Should the last be lost too, and hope for all that would come later lost with him too????? Perhaps I would like Byzantine empire to last till the second comming, but would that distort The Faith in irreparable way, I don't know - God knows. If it would, then the fall of Constantinople was a small price...

Now, since Adam and Eve, humans make their own choices, God is not making them for us. We are all given chance for union with Him in Heaven, if we don't, it's our own fault - not God's. There is no predestination, noone is sentenced by God to do some evil even before he was born.

If a man does something wrong, he can qote Bible all he wants, and try to find excuse. Fact is, he made the choice.

About Serbs in Bosnia, for every murder done there by us, muslims or Croats, we could blame God - fact is those who did it are to be held accountable (another fact is that most of the Serbs in that time ware Orthodox Christians as much as it is the first bird you run into next time you pass by some tree).


Xristos.Anesti might explain better - trust me, he will know what he is talking about.

nestoj
God helps

[Protoevangel]

By the way, I love your username too.

I assume you know what Death to the World means.

And yet you still place yourself above God, and judge His actions and judgments?

Don't worry, I understand your questions. I myself have struggled with them myself in the past. Read what I am saying though, and take it to heart. Remember what God said to Job when Job thought he was getting unfair treatment...

God bless you deathtotheworld.

[choirfiend]

Nutroll has the best response. We can learn and come to a greater understanding of the faith and the continuity of the goodness of God through the teaching of the Church. This will ultimately take us only so far, as God cannot be fully known by us limited creatures, but questioning and seeking answers is in no way trying to put yourself above God--especially when you realize that there may be ultimate mystery in God's actions. I hope you get some other helpful responses.

[Monica, child of God]

Just a couple of thoughts:

1) Keep in mind that the OT is not a full revelation of God. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God. Therefore Orthodox view the OT in light of the Gospels and the example of Christ. We are not like Protestants who consider a verse from Exodus with the same weight as a verse from Matthew.

2) The Scriptures are both Divine and human. The perspective of the writer must be taken into consideration. Sometimes the Bible contains thoughts, feelings and conclusions from the limited human perspective of the writer.

M.

[icxn]

You have received some very good responses there deathtotheworld. I hope your friends appreciate their value, though the problem is not so easily overcome with atheists as it is their negative mentality and their presupposition to find faults with scripture that is the real issue.

Anyway, we had a conversation with an atheist a week or so ago in this thread (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36643978#post36643978) and gave some unique explanations that might be helpful. Here's also an example (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36646276#post36646276) of applying the principle given in the above thread.

[eoe]

As far as death does - who can say that if those people were allowed to live that they would not have suffered a worse fate eventually? Perhaps they would have been incapable of accepting Christ in hades. Perhaps they would have descended completely into corruption.

Death is not the end and it is not the worst thing that can happen. As limited creatures we can not see the bigger picture that God sees so we can not understand that mass genocide was in reality the kindest thing to do.

Take this situation. Noah is the last faithful man on the planet. Instead of the flood, God does nothing. Noah is murdered and all knowledge of God is lost. Mary is never born and Christ has no suitable ladder to descend to earth. There is no incarnation and mankind is lost forever.

Contrived? Yeah I suppose but you get the idea.


In the end - for your friend's arguments to have any weight at all you have to begin with the assumption that death is the end and that it is the worst thing that can happen. You also have to assume that negative experiences can not have positive outcomes. With a name like death to the world you should have avoided both of these right off the bat.

[Shubunkin]

God could have destroyed the entire world, but instead tried to save it by the flood of Noah. We cannot judge this action by today's standards. Our standards today would not have existed if it had not been for Noah's flood. God created the world, why wouldn't he have the right to destroy it - all of it? The people that were destroyed were inhumane creatures, and not like people today (though some are pretty inhumane too). There was no civilization as we know it. Remember the Bible said that all were killing and sinning all of the time? There was nothing else going on. Imagine complete chaos.

Then there are questions, "What about the children?" Well, apparently, they were bad too! They would have grown up as their parents were.

Someone here said that this proved that God could "clean the slate" and start all over again, but sin would still be in the world. This may be true, but I say what God did in Noah's flood was an improvement. I submit it was not done frivolously just to show what happens when that is done. I believe these people were so inhumane, and so violent, that there was nothing else to do but to get rid of them!

That's my 2¢, anyway.

By the way, I am against the death penalty. Still, I believe those people God destroyed in the flood were even worse than those we have in prison, presently.

[rusmeister]

There are enough good answers here for starters.

One useful short point I can add is regarding Abraham - it wasn't that God needed to know the extent of Abraham's faith. It was that Abraham didn't know. The only way he could learn was by undergoing a test like that. (Never mind the lessons we get from the story.)