What are we to talk about

[Simon_Templar]

In the women's ordination thread there has been some heated debate.

In the midst of it there have been a number of suggestions that we should not discuss the issue because it is contentious and we should just all agree to disagree.

My question is.. if we can't talk about things we disagree on... why even bother coming to a forum? Do you guys seriously just want to sit around and say "yep thats right!" to each other all day?

for me the point of forums is to talk about things. That of necessity involves having differing opinions and views.

[Macrina]

Speaking for myself, it is the tone of the discourse which bothered me; I am happy to discuss, or not discuss, as anyone wishes -- but I will not allow insults to my character or relationship with God.

[Simon_Templar]

Speaking for myself, it is the tone of the discourse which bothered me; I am happy to discuss, or not discuss, as anyone wishes -- but I will not allow insults to my character or relationship with God.
I understand and feel the same way. I can't answer for everyone, but I think I've maintained a reasonable tone and haven't impugned anyone's character.

To me, issues of reasoning and debate are impersonal. Thus if someone questions my reasoning, I don't take it as any reflection on me, but I also don't see if is any reflection on another person if I think their reasoning, or their understanding on a particular issue is wrong.
We're all wrong a good portion of the time, so no use getting bent out of shape over people thinking that you are wrong.

Don't let that fool you of course... i AM right ;)

[Macrina]

I understand and feel the same way. I can't answer for everyone, but I think I've maintained a reasonable tone and haven't impugned anyone's character.

To me, issues of reasoning and debate are impersonal. Thus if someone questions my reasoning, I don't take it as any reflection on me, but I also don't see if is any reflection on another person if I think their reasoning, or their understanding on a particular issue is wrong.
We're all wrong a good portion of the time, so no use getting bent out of shape over people thinking that you are wrong.

Don't let that fool you of course... i AM right ;)

;)

No, I am not upset at you, nor do I feel insulted by anything you've posted. I appreciate your effort to respect those who disagree with you. As I mentioned in the other thread, I have great respect for people who disagree with me out of scriptural convictions. If we arrive at different conclusions, at least we can recognize the shared value of turning to scripture for answers, and I admire anyone who seeks truth (even if they don't realize that I'm right ;) ).

[Albion]

My question is.. if we can't talk about things we disagree on... why even bother coming to a forum?

We can talk about things we disagree on...all day long.

But it's supposed to be a discussion among Conservatives.

Here's a topic:

To what extent is a church responsible for pastors who are revealed to be child molestors or other kinds of similar aggressors and perverts? This is not a question about legal damages, for that is a matter for the courts.

(Is this a conservative topic? Sure. It supposes that such actions are morally wrong and not just a violation of secular mores or the law.)

[Simon_Templar]

We can talk about things we disagree on...all day long.

But it's supposed to be a discussion among Conservatives.

Here's a topic:

To what extent is a church responsible for pastors who are revealed to be child molestors or other kinds of similar aggressors and perverts? This is not a question about legal damages, for that is a matter for the courts.

(Is this a conservative topic? Sure. It supposes that such actions are morally wrong and not just a violation of secular mores or the law.)
I think the church's main issue of responsability here is that all across the board, churches use wrong standards to make leaders. In many churches you become a leader by getting a degree, regardless of actuall heart attitude and belief.

In others leaders are made because they can work a crowd well and they have strong personality that enables them to excite people.

When actual wisdom, and maturity in relationship with God and really knowing God cease to be the necessary qualifications for being an elder, problems result.

The churches bear the responsability and the result not only for sexually immoral leaders, but leaders who teach false doctrine and subvert the Truth of God. Leaders who don't lead people into knowledge of God. etc

[talitha]

That topic would be fine, brother.

I am with Macrina - the topic was fine - it was the way it was handled by some - not you, Simon - that was NOT fine.

I understand your concerns, Albion, about the groundwork that is being laid for this forum. That is why I have continued in that discussion. In fact, I'm apologizing here and now for posting after you said the topic was closed. Even though you are not a moderator, nor really in "authority" over me in any way, and even though I felt it was out of order for you to assume the authority to speak imperatively like that, I should have submitted to you out of reverence for Christ, as the Bible indicates that we should all submit to one another. My bad.

blessings
tal

[Lisa0315]

Well, I think one of the problems we are going to have is the fact that Conservative can mean so many things to so many people.

How liberal does one have to be before they are disqualified to be a Conservative? Do you see my point?

Anyway, in that other thread, I was not saying, "Stop the discussion!" I was just saying to take a breather and let things settle down for a bit. I just didn't want it to become a free-for-all, and I wanted to remind people that we are Christians.

We should be able to discuss without sarcasm, bitterness, or anger. That is all that I am saying.

Lisa

[Albion]

That topic would be fine, brother.

I am with Macrina - the topic was fine - it was the way it was handled by some - not you, Simon - that was NOT fine.

I understand your concerns, Albion, about the groundwork that is being laid for this forum. That is why I have continued in that discussion. In fact, I'm apologizing here and now for posting after you said the topic was closed. Even though you are not a moderator, nor really in "authority" over me in any way, and even though I felt it was out of order for you to assume the authority to speak imperatively like that, I should have submitted to you out of reverence for Christ, as the Bible indicates that we should all submit to one another. My bad.

blessings
tal

It was a lighthearted an obviously unofficial appeal for everyone to put this to rest...and now THAT has to become the topic of a lecture.

I give up.

[Lisa0315]

It was a lighthearted appeal for everyone to put this to rest, and now THAT becomes the topic of a lecture.

I give up.

No, don't give up. If you think about it, it worked. Now, we are here talking about how we should discuss things without rancor. That is sucess, not failure!

Lisa

[talitha]

I was apologizing. I should have submitted, no matter what I thought of your posting that - that is what I was trying to say.

bless you, brother
tal

[Albion]

No, don't give up. If you think about it, it worked. Now, we are here talking about how we should discuss things without rancor. That is sucess, not failure!

Lisa

Thank you Lisa, and you too, Tal.

I am really exasperated, but I will tell you why precisely.

It's because I feel, deep down, that there are a majority of really good and decent people here such that it is a SHAME that the functioning of the board can't go better. If this were a place populated by the quarrelsome, meanspirited folks that predominate on other ones, I wouldn't have labored half so long as I did to get my plea across.

And I do apologize for the bogus Mod stuff. It must have looked more convincing than I thought it would.:D

I figured that having my name on it would instantly indicate that is wasn't a real Mod speaking; there's no "M" by my name, etc.

[talitha]

It's because I feel, deep down, that there are a majority of really good and decent people here such that it is a SHAME that the functioning of the board can't go better. If this were a place populated by the quarrelsome, meanspirited folks that predominate on other ones, I wouldn't have labored half so long as I did to get my plea across.
I'll take what I can get, lol....... ((((((albion, bro)))))))

God bless us, every one
tal

PS _ SIMON FOR MODERATOR!

[Lisa0315]

I'll take what I can get, lol....... ((((((albion, bro)))))))

God bless us, every one
tal

PS _ SIMON FOR MODERATOR!

Yes, Yes, Yes!!! Simon For Moderator!!!! :thumbsup: :clap:

Lisa

[beverhome]

I really think the question is more centered to this being a conservative forum. I could go to pretty much any forum and read about whether woman should preach and see it get into a heated debate. But what is the conservative view about preaching? Maybe we could take a vote on that and set aside emotions for a little bit.
But I do not want to post in what I think is conservative area and have to defend myself. Then this forum is no different than any other. I thought I could post conservative opinions freely and with out prejudice. If that is not the case I will leave because I do not need a other area to try to defend myself and my narrow minded way of thinking.
Blessings
April

[Criada]

Please don't leave, april!
No one is slamming anyone for being too conservative - if anything, the opposite is the case!

But - no votes, please!!
That is one of the causes of the chaos here!
Democracy is not in any way Biblical!!

God bless you, Sis!

:hug:

[Macrina]

Don't worry guys, I'll leave so you won't have to deal with me. Enjoy your forum. :wave:

[Lisa0315]

Don't worry guys, I'll leave so you won't have to deal with me. Enjoy your forum. :wave:

I was very much enjoying reading your posts, Macrina. I hope you will stay.

Lisa

[Simon_Templar]

Don't worry guys, I'll leave so you won't have to deal with me. Enjoy your forum. :wave:
No, don't go. The forum is never going to get anywhere useful if everyone leaves because of the possability of contentious discussion.

We can't be afraid of stuff like that, we have to just accept responsability for ourselves and our community here on the forum. If offenses arise, we can handle them in humility and love. Better that than never fellowshipping for fear that we might offend, or be offended.

[Lisa0315]

No, don't go. The forum is never going to get anywhere useful if everyone leaves because of the possability of contentious discussion.

We can't be afraid of stuff like that, we have to just accept responsability for ourselves and our community here on the forum. If offenses arise, we can handle them in humility and love. Better that than never fellowshipping for fear that we might offend, or be offended.

I completely agree! Humility and Love are the key. We should be able to talk about ANYTHING, but every conversation needs to be as if we were talking with Jesus.

Lisa

[Macrina]

That's all well and good, guys, but you're not having to deal with it from my perspective. I can be as nice as I want and still be accused of being a godless rebel who wants to twist scripture in order to lead people astray. You go through enough of these conversations in enough threads and you realize that it just isn't worth it. My idea of a fun hobby is not to sit online for hours everyday justifying myself to condescending strangers. Most of you have been great, but hopefully you can understand that for someone in my position, that minority makes this too draining.

I'm out.

[Criada]

:cry:

[Lisa0315]

That's all well and good, guys, but you're not having to deal with it from my perspective. I can be as nice as I want and still be accused of being a godless rebel who wants to twist scripture in order to lead people astray. You go through enough of these conversations in enough threads and you realize that it just isn't worth it. My idea of a fun hobby is not to sit online for hours everyday justifying myself to condescending strangers. Most of you have been great, but hopefully you can understand that for someone in my position, that minority makes this too draining.

I'm out.

Well, I wish you wouldn't. I really, really wish you would stay. Please?

Lisa

[CyberPaladin]

I completely agree! Humility and Love are the key. We should be able to talk about ANYTHING, but every conversation needs to be as if we were talking with Jesus.

Lisa
I agree with Lisa and Simon and we remove all the discussion and debate all we are left with is little bit of fluff discussion about people's hobby frankly I would hate to see this board become like that. While I agree we need to be respectful of each others opinion and we also need to remember conservative can include a varity of areas such views on politics or religion.

EVERYONE SHOULD CALM DOWN AND ALWAYS KEEP THIS IN MIND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS GENERALY CONSERVATIVE THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE CONSERVATIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Now if we have someone who is constantly being a liberal troll that is something that will need to be addressed eventualy but right it's nothing more than jumping to conclusions based off of only single or acouple of there views.

[Albion]

I agree with Lisa and Simon and we remove all the discussion and debate all we are left with is little bit of fluff discussion about people's hobby frankly I would hate to see this board become like that. While I agree we need to be respectful of each others opinion and we also need to remember conservative can include a varity of areas such views on politics or religion.

EVERYONE SHOULD CALM DOWN AND ALWAYS KEEP THIS IN MIND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS GENERALY CONSERVATIVE THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE CONSERVATIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Now if we have someone who is constantly being a liberal troll that is something that will need to be addressed eventualy but right it's nothing more than jumping to conclusions based off of only single or acouple of there views.

Well, you missed the point completely.

It is not that someone "is" a Liberal. That's a misreresentation I'm sorry to see repeated.

It's that VIEWS may be Liberal.

...even from an otherwise, and generally conservative person. I said that myself dozens of posts ago.

The personalizing of this point has been entirely off the subject from the start.

[GreenMunchkin]

The thing is, while discussion is good, I don't think there's too much wrong with having a place where you can just go to be with people who feel the way you do.

Debate and discussion is going on all over the site. What there's a lack of is kindness, and support and understanding.

I had no idea women as pastors was such a contentious topic, so maybe it was a one off, but if that's what the conservative forum will be about, I don't really want to be a part of it, either.

[Lisa0315]

The thing is, while discussion is good, I don't think there's too much wrong with having a place where you can just go to be with people who feel the way you do.

Debate and discussion is going on all over the site. What there's a lack of is kindness, and support and understanding.

I had no idea women as pastors was such a contentious topic, so maybe it was a one off, but if that's what the conservative forum will be about, I don't really want to be a part of it, either.

Hold on your horsies young lady! :hug: We are just getting started. This shows a real need to have two forums. One for fellowship and one for debate. Then, people can choose which one to take part in. Erwin said we could do that, so that is what we need to do!

Lisa

[GreenMunchkin]

Hold on your horsies young lady! :hug: We are just getting started. This shows a real need to have two forums. One for fellowship and one for debate. Then, people can choose which one to take part in. Erwin said we could do that, so that is what we need to do!

LisaLike having a subforum for debate?

It's just, the wiki for the forum categorically states this is not the fundamentalist forum, but it's such a fluid title maybe there isn't a way around it.

[nyj]

I think we should talk about pizza.

The liberals have ice cream. I say we have pizza!

[Lisa0315]

Like having a subforum for debate?

It's just, the wiki for the forum categorically states this is not the fundamentalist forum, but it's such a fluid title maybe there isn't a way around it.

Yes, I think that is the problem. I love that word used as an adverb, "fluid". It brings such a great word picture to mind, doesn't it.

Lisa

[talitha]

adjective. but yes. :)

I like it fluid, and I've been fighting to keep it that way.

[Lisa0315]

adjective. but yes. :)

I like it fluid, and I've been fighting to keep it that way.

Oops, my bad. It is an adjective. ;)

Lisa

[CyberPaladin]

I think one thing people need to remember is it's a message board if it's a topic that you don't want to talk about don't or if the thread starts spiraling out of control just leave and don't comeback.

Although if all you guys want to do is have light fluff talk while ignoring any sort issue of substance I won't argue that point either afterall there are plenty of forums on this board where conservatives can go to argue.

[Lisa0315]

I think one thing people need to remember is it's a message board if it's a topic that you don't want to talk about don't or if the thread starts spiraling out of control just leave and don't comeback.

Although if all you guys want to do is have light fluff talk while ignoring any sort issue of substance I won't argue that point either afterall there are plenty of forums on this board where conservatives can go to argue.

You have to understand that there are different needs and different people. I am Type A so I can handle a good debate. There are others though who cannot even stand to see it much less participate in it. They are here for fellowship and it is very, very hurtful to them to see a heated debate. That is why I am recommending two sub forums. One for debate. One for fellowship.

I personally have need for both, not one or the other.

Lisa

[CyberPaladin]

Lisa I need both the fellowship and the debate too my thinking simply it's a big message board if it's that upsetting to members of this section I would go to another wasn't bothering people to slug it out.

[Lisa0315]

Lisa I need both the fellowship and the debate too my thinking simply it's a big message board if it's that upsetting to members of this section I would go to another wasn't bothering people to slug it out.

Well, I just think that if clear lines are drawn between the two, we will have less upset people. Many times "fellowship" threads can turn hot. If we were allowed to say, "This is fellowship. I will meet you over in Discussion." That may keep the gentler members "safe". I have just heard the word "safe" in this forum so often, that I really, really think it is important that we try to insure that.

Lisa

[GreenMunchkin]

Lisa I need both the fellowship and the debate too my thinking simply it's a big message board if it's that upsetting to members of this section I would go to another wasn't bothering people to slug it out.I get what you're saying, but that's not what this forum was created for, and being chased out by people isn't ok. There are other forums where that's prevalent. This forum isn't for that purpose.

[CyberPaladin]

I get what you're saying, but that's not what this forum was created for, and being chased out by people isn't ok. There are other forums where that's prevalent. This forum isn't for that purpose.


I thought that you didn't want people arguing things out here which is fine if it's what's decided I will due it else where. The important thing right now is that find out if we have the option of creating a subforum for debating and then decided what we want to do as group in a calm, loving manner.

[GreenMunchkin]

I thought that you didn't want people arguing things out here which is fine if it's what's decided I will due it else where. The important thing right now is that find out if we have the option of creating a subforum for debating and then decided what we want to do as group in a calm, loving manner.Hiya :) I guess, also, there's a difference between debating and flat-out fighting. Not everyone has the constitution for the former, let alone the latter. If we were all able to debate without resorting to meanness, I don't suppose a sub-forum would be necessary. A forum full of "I completely agree!" wouldn't represent all facets of Christianity - conservative or otherwise - but when people are being left in tears after a "debate" and others still feel it's not somewhere they can even begin to spend time in, it's swung too far in the other direction, and something went wrong somewhere. Ya know? :(

Being able to have both would be the best of both. Like having two swimming pools - one with warm water, and one with cool, and then people have the choice of going into both, either or staying away completely. But at least that way, people who can't handle the atmosphere in the rest of CF can still feel safe in here.

[beverhome]

I truly just wish to stay out of strife and debating because of the scriptures.

2 Corinthians 12:20:

20For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:


2 Timothy 2:23:

23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes

Philippians 2:3:

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves

James 3:16:

16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work

Not because I am weak but because I strive to remain strong.

April

[Lisa0315]

http://www.christianforums.com/t5740285-wiki-poll-opening-statement.html

[Hishandmaiden]

I agree with Lisa and Simon and we remove all the discussion and debate all we are left with is little bit of fluff discussion about people's hobby frankly I would hate to see this board become like that. While I agree we need to be respectful of each others opinion and we also need to remember conservative can include a varity of areas such views on politics or religion.

EVERYONE SHOULD CALM DOWN AND ALWAYS KEEP THIS IN MIND JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS GENERALY CONSERVATIVE THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE CONSERVATIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Now if we have someone who is constantly being a liberal troll that is something that will need to be addressed eventualy but right it's nothing more than jumping to conclusions based off of only single or acouple of there views.
I agree. WE are conservative in that we believe in the Bible as unchanging and true, and we are based our lives on it.

Our interpretation of what the Bible says will differ, though, greatly.

[Hishandmaiden]

You have to understand that there are different needs and different people. I am Type A so I can handle a good debate. There are others though who cannot even stand to see it much less participate in it. They are here for fellowship and it is very, very hurtful to them to see a heated debate. That is why I am recommending two sub forums. One for debate. One for fellowship.

I personally have need for both, not one or the other.

Lisa
I agree. For me, I like debate and I rarely fellowship, but I think there are people who come here for fellowship and they get challenged by debates.