Old Believers?

[JM]

What is an 'old believer?'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/Boyarynja_Morozova.jpg

A fragment of painting Boyarynya Morozova by Vasily Surikov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Surikov) depicting defiant Old Believer arrested by Czar authorities in 1671. She holds two fingers raised: a hint to the old, i.e., "proper" way of putting a cross unto oneself: with two fingers, rather than with three.

Why would three fingers be more important then two, or two better then three?

[xristos.anesti]

Old believers. (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Believers)

I am not sure why they would use two fingers to make a sign of the Cross.

We use all five fingers to make a sign of the Cross.

Three: the thumb, index finger and the middle finger - are straight and connected together - for there is Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Two: fourth finger and the pinky are folded towards the palm - for there are two natures of Christ.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/04/Sign-of-the-cross--fingers-position.jpg/120px-Sign-of-the-cross--fingers-position.jpg


Many years.

[JM]

By the middle of the 17th century Greek and Russian church officials, including Patriarch Nikon, had noticed discrepancies between contemporary Russian and Greek usages. They reached the conclusion that the Russian Orthodox Church had, as a result of errors of incompetent copyists, developed rites and missal texts of its own that had significantly deviated from the Greek originals. Thus, the Russian Orthodox Church had become dissonant from the other Orthodox churches. Later research was to vindicate the Muscovite service-books as belonging to a different recension from that which was used by the Greeks at the time of Nikon, and the unrevised Muscovite books were actually older and more venerable than the Greek books, which had undergone several revisions over the centuries and ironically, were newer and contained innovations (Kapterev N.F., 1913, 1914; Zenkovskij S.A., 1995, 2006).

So what happened? Where do old believers stand today?

[E.C.]

The Mongols invaded the area we know as Russia.

Due to this, the Russian Church I believe was in isolation from the rest of the Orthodox world.


Sometime in the... 16th century? Russian Patriarch Nikon tried to bring in elements that were more Greek. One was the method of the Sign of the Cross. Of course, these reforms were not brought about in the most peaceful of ways.

Those who refused to go with the reforms are what are now called the "Old Believers" or "Old Russian Ritualists" or if one wishes to be polemical, "raskols".

This bit of reform is interesting in comparison with the Reformation of the West, because in the West people were upset about theological stuff. In the East people get upset about things that really in the long run may not seem to matter that much, however the schismatics keep the same theology.

That is why reunification of Orthodox schismatics with the canonical Orthodox Churches is easier than... this Lutheran group and that Lutheran group.

[Ioan cel Nou]

So what happened? Where do old believers stand today?
Some Old Believers were reconciled to ROCOR (which has since reconciled with the Patriarchate of Moscow) and were allowed to keep the old practices. I believe some also reconciled with the Patriarchate directly. Some remain in schism and these are divided into those with priests and priestless ones, so they don't even make up one united group.

As for the sign of the cross, they use the two outstetched fingers to represent the two natures of Christ and the three curled in ones to represent the Trinity (opposite of us). Rather legalistically, those who remain in schism say that our way of crossing is wrong because we put the whole Trinity on the cross!

James

[nikolayalexandroff]

Some Old Believers were reconciled to ROCOR (which has since reconciled with the Patriarchate of Moscow) and were allowed to keep the old practices. I believe some also reconciled with the Patriarchate directly. Some remain in schism and these are divided into those with priests and priestless ones, so they don't even make up one united group.

As for the sign of the cross, they use the two outstetched fingers to represent the two natures of Christ and the three curled in ones to represent the Trinity (opposite of us). Rather legalistically, those who remain in schism say that our way of crossing is wrong because we put the whole Trinity on the cross!

James
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/r_logo.gif 2007-07-19 12:08:00
Same-Faith communities in USA delighted with revival of Orthodoxy in Russia and Russian believers’ respect for ROCOR

Moscow, July 19, Interfax - A delegation of the Old Belief clergy, who maintain canonical communion with the Russian Church Outside Russia, have completed their week-long visit to Russia. They visited the Moscow Kremlin, the Church of Christ the Saviour, St. Sergius’s Laura of the Trinity and Same-Faith parishes in Moscow.

‘We were struck by the incredible rebirth of Orthodox life, evident in each place we had an opportunity to visit. This has inspired us to persuade Bishop Daniel back in Erie that his fears that the communist ideology, which stifles the Church, is still present are ungrounded’, Archpriest Pimen Simon, rector of the Church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, Pennsylvania, told Interfax on Thursday.

Earlier some opponents of reunification between the Russian Orthodox Church inside and outside Russia tried to persuade Bishop Daniel of Erie in charge of the ROCOR Same-Faith faithful to lead the schism in the Church Outside Russia and become the head of the so-called ‘Provisional Supreme Church Administration of the Russian Church Outside Russia’. Bishop Daniel himself however refuted last June the rumours about his intention to participate in the church schism.

Father Pimen told the agency that upon their return from Russia the delegation told Bishop Daniel about ‘the broad affection for him and Metropolitan Laurus they witness among the Same-Faith flock in Russia’ and described in detail their stay in Moscow, visits to holy places and talks with church officials and Same-Faith clergy.

‘All these details have appeased Bishop Daniel. He assured us he could trust our impressions and was extremely happy to hear that the Church in Russia experienced a miraculous rebirth, while the Church Outside Russia enjoyed respect’, the priest said.

[AJB4]

What's the proper way to do it? These two things, and the way the lady is doing it are similar, but Orthodox Christians generally do it differently, kind of like the picture that Xristos.Anesti posted.

http://www.gnosis.org/images/handsmcl.gif

http://www.goarch.org/en/resources/clipart/icons/IClifegiver.jpg

[Ioan cel Nou]

What's the proper way to do it? These two things, and the way the lady is doing it are similar, but Orthodox Christians generally do it differently, kind of like the picture that Xristos.Anesti posted.

http://www.gnosis.org/images/handsmcl.gif

http://www.goarch.org/en/resources/clipart/icons/IClifegiver.jpg
The proper way for an Orthodox Christian is with thumb index and second finger held with the tips together and the other two curled in. The gesture in the icon that you posted is not the same thing. That's a blessing for others and if you watch an Orthodox priest blessing the congregation you'll see that he does use exactly that gesture. It's also not quite the same as the Old Believer method of crossing oneself.

James

[AJB4]

The proper way for an Orthodox Christian is with thumb index and second finger held with the tips together and the other two curled in. The gesture in the icon that you posted is not the same thing. That's a blessing for others and if you watch an Orthodox priest blessing the congregation you'll see that he does use exactly that gesture. It's also not quite the same as the Old Believer method of crossing oneself.

James
Thank you. That explains a lot.

[Dewi Sant]

The 'original' way of making the hand position for crossing yourself comes from the Roman practice of calling attention in Senate.

The two little fingers flat on the palm, the thumb crossed over on top and the two remaining fingers erect.

The theology is the same as the modern way.
The two fingers and thumb symbolise the trinity
The two remaining fingers symoblise the deity and humanity of Christ.

There is a slight difference in theology with the old one which is that the two fingers which symbolise Christ were to be positioned with one of the fingers slightly bent to show that he came "down from heaven", thus suggesting the incarnation.

In the painting, the dipped finger is there, or at least it is suggested (the two fingers are not equally erect).

The original version is quite tricky to quickly assemble in need of emergency invocation of the Holy Trinity and it is thought that the thumb eventually met the two fingers to form what we have today.

[Mary of Bethany]

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/r_logo.gif 2007-07-19 12:08:00
Same-Faith communities in USA delighted with revival of Orthodoxy in Russia and Russian believers’ respect for ROCOR

Moscow, July 19, Interfax - A delegation of the Old Belief clergy, who maintain canonical communion with the Russian Church Outside Russia, have completed their week-long visit to Russia. They visited the Moscow Kremlin, the Church of Christ the Saviour, St. Sergius’s Laura of the Trinity and Same-Faith parishes in Moscow.

‘We were struck by the incredible rebirth of Orthodox life, evident in each place we had an opportunity to visit. This has inspired us to persuade Bishop Daniel back in Erie that his fears that the communist ideology, which stifles the Church, is still present are ungrounded’, Archpriest Pimen Simon, rector of the Church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, Pennsylvania, told Interfax on Thursday.

Earlier some opponents of reunification between the Russian Orthodox Church inside and outside Russia tried to persuade Bishop Daniel of Erie in charge of the ROCOR Same-Faith faithful to lead the schism in the Church Outside Russia and become the head of the so-called ‘Provisional Supreme Church Administration of the Russian Church Outside Russia’. Bishop Daniel himself however refuted last June the rumours about his intention to participate in the church schism.

Father Pimen told the agency that upon their return from Russia the delegation told Bishop Daniel about ‘the broad affection for him and Metropolitan Laurus they witness among the Same-Faith flock in Russia’ and described in detail their stay in Moscow, visits to holy places and talks with church officials and Same-Faith clergy.

‘All these details have appeased Bishop Daniel. He assured us he could trust our impressions and was extremely happy to hear that the Church in Russia experienced a miraculous rebirth, while the Church Outside Russia enjoyed respect’, the priest said.

That's good news. I just got an "Old Rite" prayer book put out by these very folks in Erie. The prayers are from the Russian church before the Nikonian reforms, and they are given in Slavonic and English. They also give instruction to make the sign of the cross in the way spoken about. And they do a lot more bows and prostrations. :) (I don't try to do them all the way they prescribe!)

Mary

[E.C.]

That's good news. I just got an "Old Rite" prayer book put out by these very folks in Erie. The prayers are from the Russian church before the Nikonian reforms, and they are given in Slavonic and English. They also give instruction to make the sign of the cross in the way spoken about. And they do a lot more bows and prostrations. :) (I don't try to do them all the way they prescribe!)

Mary
If its the one that I think you're talking about, we also have a copy.

Only problem is that it is in the Old Slavonic!:doh:

[Mary of Bethany]

Mine has Slavonic on the left page, English on the right.

Mary

[E.C.]

Mine has Slavonic on the left page, English on the right.

Mary
Ah, that's the one.