OO's

[WarriorAngel]

Which Patriarch do you follow?

St Mark?

[Colabomb]

I thought it was St. Thomas.

Not sure.

[EmperorConstantine]

Copts are under the Coptic Pope Shenouda III.

And a couple other folks depending on area.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3071024-who-heads-the-oo-church.html

[WarriorAngel]

Ok EC, but which Apostle have their Popes succeeded from?

[a_ntv]

Ok EC, but which Apostle have their Popes succeeded from?

The OO are composed of different churches:

The Coptic Church, in Egypt, have been founded by St Mark

The Syrian Church, based in Antioch, have been founded by St Peter

The Indian OOs trace back their succession, through the ACoE, to St Thomas

The Armenians trace trace back their succession to St Gregory the Illuminatori, who was orained bishop by the bishop of Cesarea in Turkey, who can trace back to the first comunities founded by St Paul

The OO Ethipean never had a own bishop succession (up about the the 1970), but their bishop arrived each time from the Coptic Egypt

[WarriorAngel]

Ok...so St Mark...

Yea, I love that St Peter set up Antioch. :)

Then he went to Rome...and well, the rest is history. Crucified upside down. :(

[EmperorConstantine]

The OO Ethipean never had a own bishop succession (up about the the 1970), but their bishop arrived each time from the Coptic Egypt
Really? I always thought Orthodoxy got to Ethiopia rather early and via one of the Apostles.:scratch:

[minasoliman]

The Oriental Orthodox Church is not just one tradition, but a diversity of traditions of other churches. So, as a_ntv showed, each church of the OO communion have different histories and origins.

The Ethiopian Church received its patriarchal privileges through the see of St. Mark. But the Ethiopian Church had Christians even at Apostolic times. In fact, the Ethiopians are "Judaic Christians," in which Judaism can be traced back to the time of King Solomon in the Old Testament. St. Philip met an Ethiopian Eunuch Jew reading the Old Testament, and upon St. Philip's explanation was baptized. Many more would come.

Nevertheless, it has been said that the bishops of Ethiopia started through St. Athanasius the Apostolic via St. Frumentius, the first bishop of Ethiopia.

God bless.

[Yeznik]

The OO are composed of different churches:

The Coptic Church, in Egypt, have been founded by St Mark

The Syrian Church, based in Antioch, have been founded by St Peter

The Indian OOs trace back their succession, through the ACoE, to St Thomas

The Armenians trace trace back their succession to St Gregory the Illuminatori, who was orained bishop by the bishop of Cesarea in Turkey, who can trace back to the first comunities founded by St Paul

The OO Ethipean never had a own bishop succession (up about the the 1970), but their bishop arrived each time from the Coptic Egypt

Correction, the Armenian trace their roots to the Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus who were martyred there. Saint Gregory is the First Katholico's of Armenia.

[EmperorConstantine]

The Ethiopian Church received its patriarchal privileges through the see of St. Mark. But the Ethiopian Church had Christians even at Apostolic times. In fact, the Ethiopians are "Judaic Christians," in which Judaism can be traced back to the time of King Solomon in the Old Testament. St. Philip met an Ethiopian Eunuch Jew reading the Old Testament, and upon St. Philip's explanation was baptized. Many more would come.

Nevertheless, it has been said that the bishops of Ethiopia started through St. Athanasius the Apostolic via St. Frumentius, the first bishop of Ethiopia.

God bless.
So, while Ethiopian Orthodoxy itself can be traced to the Apostles, the line of bishops came from other bishops?

Did I say that correctly?

[a_ntv]

So, while Ethiopian Orthodoxy itself can be traced to the Apostles, the line of bishops came from other bishops?

Did I say that correctly?

St Frumentus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frumentius) (died 383) and his brother, St Edesius were christian Syrians who, taken as slaves when boys, spreaded christianity in Ethiopia: that is history
All legends of Ethiopia evangelization before St Frumentus cannot be proved historically.
St Frumentus later went to Egypt to get the bishop ordination from the patriarch of Alexandria: so he get the first "Abuna"

The very interesting thing, was that the "abuna" was the only bishop in Ethiopia (he was not a patriarch, he was not the head of the Church, that was governed by an Archideacon. the abuna work was only to ordain deacons and priests, to consacrate churches and similar episcopal works).
When an abuna died, the See of Alexandria sended to Ethiopia from Egipt a new Abuna (an egiptean monk consacrated bishop)
It was only in the 1930 that there the fisrt 5 bishops consacration in Ethiopia, and the creation of an Ethipean Patriarcate is more recent

[zhilan]

I just wanted to add that the Ethiopians are really cool.

[Rowan]

I just wanted to add that the Ethiopians are really cool.

They have to be -- they got Bob Marley ^_^

[Yeznik]

Some interesting facts regarding the OO Churches.


1) Did you know that Armenia was the first Christian nation.

2) Saint Anthanasius was from the Coptic Church.

Anyone care to ad?

[EmperorConstantine]

Some interesting facts regarding the OO Churches.


1) Did you know that Armenia was the first Christian nation.

2) Saint Anthanasius was from the Coptic Church.

Anyone care to ad?
Oriental and Eastern Orthodox have good relations with each other.

When I was in Miami, before becoming EO, the cathedral there was allowing the local Coptic community to use the cathedral. Now the Coptic folks have their own building.

If two Christian bodies every reunite, it would be the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Also you guys have some interesting history.

[xristos.anesti]

Oriental Orthodox means Eastern Orthodox - and that is all about that - there are neither monophysites nor dyaphysites - we shall do what the fathers did not, God willing, in our time the 1500 years of schism will be healed and sees of St. Andrew (Constantinople), St. Mark (Alexandria), St. James (Jerusalem) and St. Peter (Antioch) shall be in the East in full communion - as they already are geographically and by the shared history, the sins of brothers and against brothers shall be forgiven and the bells will sound the new dawn - the dawn of the sun of the East, forever in communion as it is proper and right...

[WarriorAngel]

Oriental Orthodox means Eastern Orthodox - and that is all about that - there are neither monophysites nor dyaphysites - we shall do what the fathers did not, God willing, in our time the 1500 years of schism will be healed and sees of St. Andrew (Constantinople), St. Mark (Alexandria), St. James (Jerusalem) and St. Peter (Antioch) shall be in the East in full communion - as they already are geographically and by the shared history, the sins of brothers and against brothers shall be forgiven and the bells will sound the new dawn - the dawn of the sun of the East, forever in communion as it is proper and right...

I know Rome wants everyone to be back together.
And I am seeing the Spirit of God working these days in the Churches.

HE also desires our prayers for this..
In prayer we are strong.

He will mend the fences, we must pray.

I am interested in the schism too. How did it happen?

[xristos.anesti]

I know Rome wants everyone to be back together.
And I am seeing the Spirit of God working these days in the Churches.

HE also desires our prayers for this..
In prayer we are strong.

He will mend the fences, we must pray.

I am interested in the schism too. How did it happen?

Many years,

We know Rome wants everyone to be together - the problem is that Rome wants everyone to be together UNDER Rome. It is not really the case that Rome wants everyone to be back together as there was no time in the first 1000 years when all were under Rome. So if Rome wants everyone to be together as we were for the first 1000 years - there is a lot of Dogmatic postulations of See of St. Peter that would have to be re-declared as matters of pious opinion – starting of with the decrees of the Vatican One (1) –

Especially the fourth (4th) chapter of its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Pastor Aeternus, solemnly promulgated by Pope Pius IX, the First Vatican Council in 1870 declared the following:

We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.

And also,

This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion. And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful.

Coming from this we are under anathema of Rome – given that we can not accept this nor will ever be able to.

The other issues should also be looked upon – i.e. the question of procession of the Holy Spirit.

Foremost the question of Papal infallibility and supremacy of power as all others flow from this one.




As far as the Oriental Orthodox are concerned the reason for schism is a disagreement upon terms and victimisation of some fathers of the both churches.

There were indeed two schisms in the same period – the Alexandrian and Antiochian – we declared them monophysite and they declared us Nestorian.

The reason and issues for this separation is question of Christological nature and language of formulae of Holy and Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon.

After the Council of Ephesus had condemned Nestorians, a conflict remained between patriarchs John of Antioch and Cyril of Alexandria. Cyril claimed that John remained Nestorian in outlook, while John claimed that Cyril held to the Apollinarian heresy. The two settled their differences under the mediation of the bishop of Beroea, Acacius, on April 12, 433. In the following year, Theodoret of Cyrrhus assented to this formula as well, apparently putting a rest to Nestorianism forever within the Roman Empire.

The near-immediate result of the council was a major schism. The bishops (Oriental) that were uneasy with the language of Pope Leo's Tome repudiated the council, saying that the acceptance of two physes was tantamount to Nestorianism. This is the origin of Oriental Orthodoxy as a distinct communion, which still today rejects the results of this council.

Consequently we used the imperial power to cause harm to Orientals and they fought against – the solution was never found as the Moslems appeared and we remained divided with a lot of bad memories.

Some Oriental Orthodox bishops have indicated that the difference in doctrine was never more than a misunderstanding and have since reintegrated in the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches. Since, the Eastern Orthodox have reciprocated and declared pretty much the same.

I am, personally, against reintegration of Oriental Christian but rather for re-unification, for I deem the reintegration looks awfully a lot like the Roman policy of Uniatism.

I hope that East will be united soon as it is proper and right.



Many years.

[copticorthodoxy]

I know Rome wants everyone to be back together.
And I am seeing the Spirit of God working these days in the Churches.

HE also desires our prayers for this..
In prayer we are strong.

He will mend the fences, we must pray.

I am interested in the schism too. How did it happen?

Back together as one church Yes , but not under Rome

[No Swansong]

Oriental and Eastern Orthodox have good relations with each other.

When I was in Miami, before becoming EO, the cathedral there was allowing the local Coptic community to use the cathedral. Now the Coptic folks have their own building.

If two Christian bodies every reunite, it would be the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Also you guys have some interesting history.
While I would like to see that it certainly is not the case in my city. The Greek Orthodox, and the Russians (OCA) went out of their way when the Coptic Church was established here to let their people know that they were :"heretics" and their liturgies were to be avoided. Perhaps the Orthodox are different here but I can assure you that the Copts were certainly not welcomed.

[EmperorConstantine]

While I would like to see that it certainly is not the case in my city. The Greek Orthodox, and the Russians (OCA) went out of their way when the Coptic Church was established here to let their people know that they were :"heretics" and their liturgies were to be avoided. Perhaps the Orthodox are different here but I can assure you that the Copts were certainly not welcomed.
Really? That really is sad.

If any hope for reunion between EO and OO would have to start at the local parish level when both sides quit calling the other heretics.

It may be different in your area than it was in Miami.

[No Swansong]

Really? That really is sad.

If any hope for reunion between EO and OO would have to start at the local parish level when both sides quit calling the other heretics.

It may be different in your area than it was in Miami.
What was really interesting is that my wife and I had the opportunity to spend the entire day with the Abouna there and he was the most gracious, loving man I have ever had the opportunity to meet. It was a wonderful day. At the end of the day he gave us his blessing and it was one of the most beautiful prayers I have ever heard.

[minasoliman]

Unity needs time to sink in to all the Orthodox. I'm personally surprised the OCA Church (and the Greeks for that matter) think so. St. Vladimir's, an OCA seminar, and the Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological Seminar promotes EO/OO unity. As much I as understand, I have heard there is a Coptic Church somewhere in Texas that considers EO's heretics as well.

God bless.

[No Swansong]

Unity needs time to sink in to all the Orthodox. I'm personally surprised the OCA Church (and the Greeks for that matter) think so. St. Vladimir's, an OCA seminar, and the Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological Seminar promotes EO/OO unity. As much I as understand, I have heard there is a Coptic Church somewhere in Texas that considers EO's heretics as well.

God bless.
It is good to hear that the experience I had here in Central Ohio is not necessarily the same elsewhere. Perhaps if we keep talking we may someday get there.

[zhilan]

While I would like to see that it certainly is not the case in my city. The Greek Orthodox, and the Russians (OCA) went out of their way when the Coptic Church was established here to let their people know that they were :"heretics" and their liturgies were to be avoided. Perhaps the Orthodox are different here but I can assure you that the Copts were certainly not welcomed.

You'll also find relations much closer with the Antiochians. I know my bishop has often had much better relations with the Coptics than with the Greeks and Russians who he is in full communion with.

[No Swansong]

You'll also find relations much closer with the Antiochians. I know my bishop has often had much better relations with the Coptics than with the Greeks and Russians who he is in full communion with.
Without meaning to be disrespectful this is why I don't pay much attention when many Orthodox argue that they are the same Church. I have known times when the Russians (OCA) here would not commune the Greeks and I have known times when the Antiochians would not be communed by the Greeks.

I just find myself say yeah sure they are the same Church.

[minasoliman]

Without meaning to be disrespectful this is why I don't pay much attention when many Orthodox argue that they are the same Church. I have known times when the Russians (OCA) here would not commune the Greeks and I have known times when the Antiochians would not be communed by the Greeks.

I just find myself say yeah sure they are the same Church.
That's probably because they believe it's more important to be Greek than to be Christian (and likewise for the Russians). It's called racism, and it's a heresy. In this case, I would say these are the ones that are not Orthodox, even though they show off like they are. Lord have mercy!

[SeraphimSarov]

Without meaning to be disrespectful this is why I don't pay much attention when many Orthodox argue that they are the same Church. I have known times when the Russians (OCA) here would not commune the Greeks and I have known times when the Antiochians would not be communed by the Greeks.

I just find myself say yeah sure they are the same Church.

That's something they'll be answering to God for. It is NOT Orthodox behavior. Don't judge all of Orthodoxy for these few people who do such a disservice to the Church.

[Mary of Bethany]

While I would like to see that it certainly is not the case in my city. The Greek Orthodox, and the Russians (OCA) went out of their way when the Coptic Church was established here to let their people know that they were :"heretics" and their liturgies were to be avoided. Perhaps the Orthodox are different here but I can assure you that the Copts were certainly not welcomed.

It also depends upon when (how long ago) you are speaking of. Relations have really warmed over the last 5-10 years.

And that's true with the OCA - not just the Antiochians. My own priest is very friendly with the Coptic priest here, and I have heard statements in my parish that re-union may not be that far away.

Mary

[zhilan]

It also depends upon when (how long ago) you are speaking of. Relations have really warmed over the last 5-10 years.

And that's true with the OCA - not just the Antiochians. My own priest is very friendly with the Coptic priest here, and I have heard statements in my parish that re-union may not be that far away.

Mary
My priest has said he believes we are the same Church just in schism for 1500 years. Copts often come to EO events, such as when Fr. Hopko visited or when we had an Orthodox day at the Ghetty, and other such big events.

[WarriorAngel]

That's probably because they believe it's more important to be Greek than to be Christian (and likewise for the Russians). It's called racism, and it's a heresy. In this case, I would say these are the ones that are not Orthodox, even though they show off like they are. Lord have mercy!

Reminds of the East and West. :holy:

[Yeznik]

My priest has said he believes we are the same Church just in schism for 1500 years. Copts often come to EO events, such as when Fr. Hopko visited or when we had an Orthodox day at the Ghetty, and other such big events.

Are you talking about the Getty Museum in Los Angeles where the Icon exhibition was?

[Yeznik]

Unity needs time to sink in to all the Orthodox. I'm personally surprised the OCA Church (and the Greeks for that matter) think so. St. Vladimir's, an OCA seminar, and the Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Theological Seminar promotes EO/OO unity. As much I as understand, I have heard there is a Coptic Church somewhere in Texas that considers EO's heretics as well.

God bless.

The Armenian seminarians attend St. Vlad's in New York, I have been to a graduation ceremony for some of our seminarians.

[zhilan]

Are you talking about the Getty Museum in Los Angeles where the Icon exhibition was?
Yup! It was awesome! Did you see it?

[Yeznik]

Yup! It was awesome! Did you see it?

Yes! Its was totally amazing! It was truly a gift to see icons that predate the iconoclasm. Please keep me posted if you there are any upcoming orthodox events in the Los Angeles area.