This is me

[PowderedGold]

Hi everybody, my name is Morgan. I'm a 24 year old (going to be 25 on Sunday) American guy. I am trying to reach out but I would like to share a little back story if you don't mind.

I was raised in a totally non-religious household. My mother is a lapsed Catholic and my father is an ardent atheist. I received no religious instruction whatsoever growing up from my family. Yet I believed in God, despite having many doubts, although I was by no means a Christian.

Around the time I was 18, two things happened. I started reading the "Left Behind" series and a Christian friend of mine from childhood named Ryan began ministering to me, for lack of a better word. It was more like we had discussions about theology, a subject which has always fascinated me. During this time, the seeds were planted in me.

When I got to college, I was invited by a girl I met to attend a Bible study. I fell in with a group of Christian college students living in Boston and was thoroughly converted to Christianity. I had high ambitions for myself as a Christian, including one day being a full time minister and devoting my life fully to God. Then my old friend Ryan, who suspected something was not quite right about this group, revealed to me that they are listed as a cult by cult watchdog groups. I read some material he sent me and decided that, yes, this was indeed a dangerous cult and I had to leave it. Fortunately, I was able to do so without much difficulty because my life was not so enmeshed in the church that I could not leave (unlike some of my poor friends who I had to leave behind.)

For the past 5 years, I have been in sort of a limbo of spirituality. I still believe in God, but I continue to have heavy doubts. I still consider myself a Christian, but my doubts there are even heavier. I feel like I'm sometimes waiting for something to push me in one direction or another (and I hope it's not the direction of doubt.)

So I am trying to reach out for help.

I am very wary of churches because I can't help but see churches as human, not divine, organizations. My faith is in God and in Christ, not in a group built by people who have agendas. I believe in a personal relationship with God and Christ, not a public one.

Yet sometimes I feel very alone. I've lost touch with my friend Ryan and I often feel as if I have no one to talk to, to answer my questions about matters of theology, or to help bolster my faith. I don't have any Christian friends and I'm afraid of joining a local church for many reasons (including those mentioned in the above paragraph.)

So maybe this post has been long and rambling, but I don't know what I'm really looking for. I guess I am hoping that those of you out in the cyberworld can help me find my way again. I want to be a Christian and I want to have faith, but it feels like a constant struggle sometimes.

Please help in any way you can.

-Morgan

[ephraimanesti]

Hi everybody, my name is Morgan. I'm a 24 year old (going to be 25 on Sunday) American guy. I am trying to reach out but I would like to share a little back story if you don't mind.

I was raised in a totally non-religious household. My mother is a lapsed Catholic and my father is an ardent atheist. I received no religious instruction whatsoever growing up from my family. Yet I believed in God, despite having many doubts, although I was by no means a Christian.

Around the time I was 18, two things happened. I started reading the "Left Behind" series and a Christian friend of mine from childhood named Ryan began ministering to me, for lack of a better word. It was more like we had discussions about theology, a subject which has always fascinated me. During this time, the seeds were planted in me.

When I got to college, I was invited by a girl I met to attend a Bible study. I fell in with a group of Christian college students living in Boston and was thoroughly converted to Christianity. I had high ambitions for myself as a Christian, including one day being a full time minister and devoting my life fully to God. Then my old friend Ryan, who suspected something was not quite right about this group, revealed to me that they are listed as a cult by cult watchdog groups. I read some material he sent me and decided that, yes, this was indeed a dangerous cult and I had to leave it. Fortunately, I was able to do so without much difficulty because my life was not so enmeshed in the church that I could not leave (unlike some of my poor friends who I had to leave behind.)

For the past 5 years, I have been in sort of a limbo of spirituality. I still believe in God, but I continue to have heavy doubts. I still consider myself a Christian, but my doubts there are even heavier. I feel like I'm sometimes waiting for something to push me in one direction or another (and I hope it's not the direction of doubt.)

So I am trying to reach out for help.

I am very wary of churches because I can't help but see churches as human, not divine, organizations. My faith is in God and in Christ, not in a group built by people who have agendas. I believe in a personal relationship with God and Christ, not a public one.

Yet sometimes I feel very alone. I've lost touch with my friend Ryan and I often feel as if I have no one to talk to, to answer my questions about matters of theology, or to help bolster my faith. I don't have any Christian friends and I'm afraid of joining a local church for many reasons (including those mentioned in the above paragraph.)

So maybe this post has been long and rambling, but I don't know what I'm really looking for. I guess I am hoping that those of you out in the cyberworld can help me find my way again. I want to be a Christian and I want to have faith, but it feels like a constant struggle sometimes.

Please help in any way you can.

-Morgan

HELLO, MORGAN!

WELCOME! MAY YOU BE BLESSED!

i just came across your Post as i am stumbling off to bed, so i won't try to give the Post the reply it deserves tonight because it would just end up being garbled gibberish--it has been a long day!

Just wanted to welcome you, include you in my evening prayers, and bless you for your efforts to seek out the TRUTH. MAY YOU FIND IT QUICKLY!

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

[PowderedGold]

Thanks, Ephraim. I look forward to reading your reply tomorrow.

[ShannonB]

Hello Morgan!

I can relate to what you say about feeling in limbo. I grew up in a somewhat lax household (religionwise) and have recently been re-establishing my faith.

Have you prayed for Christ to come into your heart? Another thing I would HIGHLY recommend is reading your Bible daily but before you do, pray for understanding. I just say "Lord please help me understand your word and show me what YOU want me to see." I have found that it really helps me.

I know how frustrating it is to feel how you do. I wish you the best on your faith journey!

[ephraimanesti]

For the past 5 years, I have been in sort of a limbo of spirituality. I still believe in God, but I continue to have heavy doubts. I still consider myself a Christian, but my doubts there are even heavier.

So I am trying to reach out for help.

MY DEAR FRIEND,

Just a few comments regarding what you have written because, as yet, i don't have a really clear picture of where you are coming from or where it is that you want to go. Rather than ramble and try to cover all bases let me just nail down a few things that i think are initially important to your search as you have described it and we--or more likely you and others who, i am sure, will be along shortly--can go from there.

My first question is "WHY DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN?" You state that you "still believe in God" but that you have heavy doubts. Belief in God, of course, is the basis of everything and i think that most Christians, if they are honest, will admit to doubts from time to time--doubts which are acceptable to God in that belief and, eventually faith, are "the evidence of things not yet seen" and therefore not perfect. Sometimes we even have to limp along on the mere desire to believe which, i think, God accepts as belief itself. Anyway, my question has to do with Who do you see Jesus as being? Was He a "teacher" or a "preacher" or a "prophet"--or was He God's only begotten Son sent to earth to save us from our sins? Have you met Him face-to-face? Has He spoken to your heart? Has He placed His stamp on your soul? This relationship is the cornerstone of Christianity and i am curious what your status in this regard is. Is it abstract or is it concrete?

i would recommend that you do some prayerful reading in this regard so as to be absolutely clear on Who Jesus is to you. i would recommend that you spend some time reading slowly and prayerfully through the 4 Gospels, getting to know our Lord intimately, developing an understanding of Who He MUST be to you in order to consider yourself a Christian and to walk the path He has laid out for you, and developing an interior relationship with Him which is the first step in being transformed into His image--becoming Christ-like. A valuable aid in this process--along with the Gospels which are God's word on this matter--is a book entitled THE JESUS I NEVER KNEW by Philip Yancy--which is the best introduction to the reality of our Lord that i have ever found outside of the Bible. This book, along with the Gospels, is perhaps your best starting point on your quest for the TRUTH. (THE JESUS I NEVER KNEW is available at any Christian Bookstore or at

www.amazon.com/Jesus-Never-Knew-Philip-Yancey/dp/031021923X

I am very wary of churches because I can't help but see churches as human, not divine, organizations. My faith is in God and in Christ, not in a group built by people who have agendas. I believe in a personal relationship with God and Christ, not a public one.
As you say, Churches are human--but they contain a divine spark. God works through Churches and our relationship with Him, as it grows, is based on us becoming a part of Christ's Body--which is the Church. You can safely put this aside MOMENTARILY as you seek to develop a relationship with our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ, but eventually you are going to have to face this issue and allow yourself to be fitted, by God, into the Body of His Son--when and where He decides. Put this truth on the back burner for the moment. Focus on Jesus and get clear on Him, and then the next step--Church--will become clear.

I feel like I'm sometimes waiting for something to push me in one direction or another (and I hope it's not the direction of doubt.)
YOUR PASSIVITY EXPRESSED HERE IS MOST DANGEROUS! If it persists, i can guarantee you that Satan will most surely push you in the direction of doubt and you will remain in darkness, separated from the TRUTH. You must be violently pro-active!!!!!!!!! This is a spiritual battle and only the violent achieve victory. Passivity is Spiritual death, so gird yourself for a fight. (Matthew 11:12) Allow NOTHING to disuade you or turn you aside from plunging on towards your goal.

Yet sometimes I feel very alone. I've lost touch with my friend Ryan and I often feel as if I have no one to talk to, to answer my questions about matters of theology, or to help bolster my faith. I don't have any Christian friends and I'm afraid of joining a local church for many reasons (including those mentioned in the above paragraph.)
i, and many others who will doubtless appear shortly, will most lovingly and willingly act TEMPORARILY to help you deal with your feelings of isolation and answer--to the best of our abilities--your questions, helping you bolster your faith. (As was mentioned by a Poster above, we have all been in the situation in which you find yourself at present.) P.M as needed. But again, you will need at some point to allow God to place you in living fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ who can love, support, and guide you in person. Church participation is ultimately a requirement of being a Christian--as the writer to the Hebrews warns, "FORSAKE NOT THE GATHERING TOGETER OF YOURSELVES" (Hebrews 10:25) before and in the Lord.

So maybe this post has been long and rambling, but I don't know what I'm really looking for. I guess I am hoping that those of you out in the cyberworld can help me find my way again. I want to be a Christian and I want to have faith, but it feels like a constant struggle sometimes.
My brother, it is indeed a "constant struggle" and will continue to be so as long as you are on earth. You need to accept this fact now or you will quickly burn out, give up, and fall away. The question is HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT WHAT YOU CLAIM TO BE SEEKING AND WHAT ARE YOU WILLING TO SACRIFICE TO REACH YOUR GOAL?

Reading over this, i see that i have said nothing really important and little that is helpful, but i am out of time and off to work. i will look forward, if it seems good to you, to speaking with you again. In the meantime--BE BLESSED.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

[TrustingmyLord]

That was a great post from Ephraimanesti. You should read over that a couple of times.

I can relate to you in one area. Let me give you my quick background...

I was raised in a halfway Christian household. My father didnt care too much for church, but I learned alot from my mom.

When I was about 17, I got wrapped up in the things of the world and totally forgot about God. I did what I wanted, etc. Had a very rough time for years. Then, years later, when I was about 27, I heard God speaking to me... I was feeling pulled to go back to church. After many years of not going, I didnt know where to start. I picked this church down the street. The people were awesome! I made great friends, was feeling very close to God.... then the weirdness started. They encouraged me to read my Bible, but as I did, I realized that alot of their teachings and beliefs were contrary to the Bible. I left the church.

I do believe God led me to that church. Why? Cause he knew it would get me to studying the Bible and searching for HIS truth, and no one elses.

After that ordeal, I still wanted a church but was VERY leery. I must have sounded like a fool, calling up various churches, asking them what their core beliefs were, etc. Did alot of online research. I visited quite a few churches. I prayed that God would lead me to where he wanted me. I did find a few churches that taught the truth, yet there was still something not right. Finally, I found the right church and I have been there about 4 or 5 years.

Understand this: Do NOT believe anything just because a person says it. If they claim its in the Bible, look and see for yourself. Study Gods word so you will know and understand the teachings.

Satan can use churches. Maybe he was trying to use that one church to get me to thinking all churches were wackos. Maybe thats what he tried to do to you with this Bible study.

You clearly are still feeling called by God, or you wouldnt be on here posting about this. Not all churches are wacko. Really. ;)

I suggest you pray about this and read the Bible, go try out some different churches. You will find many that are not quite right. And even in a good, Biblical teaching church, theres always going to be a few people who give Christians a bad name, but we are all sinners. We all mess up. But there are really good people out there and really good churches that teach the truth. Dont give up!!

If you have questions about the Bible, Christianity, etc, feel free to ask them all here. Many times you will get a variety of ideas. Lots of people have much Godly wisdom to share, and theres still some people who are all wrong in their beliefs, but ask questions and make sure you check the answers with the Bible.

[twistedsketch]

Well, one of the things you need right now is church. A good, solid one that is not cultish. When Christians are around other Christians that focus on God, their spiritual life just picks right up. You went to ONE bad church. That doesn't mean all of them are that way.

[Countrygirl1976]

Morgan,
First of all I would like to welcome you. I too was looking for a church to go to and I went to several until I found the one that I am going to now. I will pray for you and when you get down and don't know what to do just look up. God will look down on you and tell you which direction to go. I have read all the Left Behind books twice and I want to read them again. I just love them.:)

[PowderedGold]

I don't want to be part of a church. I've heard the reasons why being a part of a Christian community is important, but it's the last thing I want. I've been to many Churches, church groups, and Bible studies, and I hate it. I hate all the phony friendliness I get from people, and the mindless, automatic faith that many people seem to have. Most of all, I hate the hypocritical attitudes that people have. A good Christian should want all people to be saved, but it seems to me like the majority of people who call themselves Christians are actually using their faith as a means to convince themselves that they are superior to others. A lot of church gatherings seem, to me, to be a group of people sitting around patting one another on the back for being so good when everyone else is so evil.

I'm sorry if all of this seems a bit harsh. I'm really not trying to be offensive or insulting to any particular person or group. I just feel a Christian community can often be humanity at its ugliest and I would just as soon not see the beautiful side if I have to see the ugly side as well, because it's that ugly side that will stick with me. That's the kind of person I am. That's why I'm so reluctant to join a church. I don't want to be indoctrinated into this system of self-serving hypocrisy.

[TrustingmyLord]

Well, just so you know, it is not that you just view things differently than other people. Its not as if all the stuff you decribed bothers only you, while the rest of us are ok with it.

Anyone who has ever visited different churches have seen those things. Even in my church, we do have a couple of people who rub me the wrong way, give me the fake smile, etc, but there are some really good people out there that do not have the attitudes you have described.

It reminds me of a conversation I once had with my mother in law. She said she would never go to church because they were full of hypocrites. I asked her, but you hang out in bars, are there any hypocrites there?? She said.... yes. All of them.
I am not sure if she grasped the irony in that.

Do you realize that a whole lot of people in this world that you come in contact with DO have all the characteristics you've described? People are people. You almost sounds as if you believe that people in a church SHOULD be perfect. Thats never going to happen. There will be snooty, self righteaous people in church, just like everywhere else, but they are people in church just like you or me. No putting on airs, no fake greetings, real people, there to learn and love. Give them a chance.

Someone once compared church to Alcoholics Anonymous. There are many alcoholics, but the ones in AA admit they have a problem. So it is with church, we are all sinners, but those in church admit to it and seek help. Thats why we go.

Anyway, just some stuff to think about.

[Johnnz]

I don't want to be part of a church. I've heard the reasons why being a part of a Christian community is important, but it's the last thing I want. I've been to many Churches, church groups, and Bible studies, and I hate it. I hate all the phony friendliness I get from people, and the mindless, automatic faith that many people seem to have. Most of all, I hate the hypocritical attitudes that people have. A good Christian should want all people to be saved, but it seems to me like the majority of people who call themselves Christians are actually using their faith as a means to convince themselves that they are superior to others. A lot of church gatherings seem, to me, to be a group of people sitting around patting one another on the back for being so good when everyone else is so evil.

I'm sorry if all of this seems a bit harsh. I'm really not trying to be offensive or insulting to any particular person or group. I just feel a Christian community can often be humanity at its ugliest and I would just as soon not see the beautiful side if I have to see the ugly side as well, because it's that ugly side that will stick with me. That's the kind of person I am. That's why I'm so reluctant to join a church. I don't want to be indoctrinated into this system of self-serving hypocrisy.

There are many mature Christians who share your views about church. Some have just abandoned attending anything formal. Others are trying small groups and home churches. Some do find somewhere that is really suitable for them Others attend traditional churches, while trying to live out a Christ like life at a personal level and hope thereby to influence others.

So, you are not alone.
Bless you
John
NZ

[TrustingmyLord]

John has a good point.

My husband does not attend church with me. He is interested though, in starting up some sort of informal Bible study or house church with a few people we know.

No matter how you do it, I think its important to be around other believers. The church is not a building, its Gods people.

[PowderedGold]

That's a good point about there being hypocrites everywhere in life, but it seems like a Christian group should be somehow exempt from that. Maybe it's just that I don't like a certain type of Christian and don't particularly want to associate with them. I would rather talk about God's love and mercy than constantly condemning other people for their sins. I feel that very few people really believe the "Judge not lest ye be judged" principle.

I understand that the church means God's people, not the physical building or temple in which you're standing, but I suppose I just wish that I could pick and choose which of God's people I associated with. The problem with joining a church is that I'll get the bad apples with the good. I know myself well enough to know that I would find this very discouraging and it would probably drive me to leave that particular church.

I want my relationship with God to be private, or between God and my family when I have one, but I still feel like I need someone to turn to for advice or answers.

-Morgan

[TrustingmyLord]

If I may.... please dont take this offensively, but I'd like to point out something I see.

You want to avoid all the "bad" Christians, the ones who judge and point out the faults of others, but in a sense, isnt that what you are doing? You are assuming that they are mostly bad, self righteous, judging, but yet you are speaking of hypothetical people. You assume people will judge, and in doing this, are you not judging as well?

This thought occured to me as I was about to point out that even my really wonderful church has "bad apples." I worried about saying that, for fear you would find ME judgemental, yet then I remembered that those were your words. Bad apples.


Well, why cant you pick and choose who you associate with, even in a church setting? Unless you go to a church that has a total of 10 people, its possible.

Theres about 150 in my church. There are indeed some "bad apples," but the majority are good people. I do not have to be best buddies with everyone. Some people are not good for me to hang around. "Bad company corrupts good character." I try to avoid being close friends with people who bring out my bad sides and my sinful nature. Gossiping is a good example. I hate gossip. I used to do it myself, and now, if I get around someone and realize they gossip alot, I'll try to put some distance between us, while still treating them with love and respect. Now, this isnt me juding them, saying... "oh look at her, what a gossip she is!!" cause I have been guilty of gossip myself at times. We all mess up.

In my church I have made a few good friends, friends that are truly kind and want to please God, friends that have a positive and encouraging impact on my life. I wouldnt trade them for anything. If this means going to church with them and sharing our building with a few who rub me the wrong way, then so be it. Who know, I may rub some the wrong way too! LOL

Our relationship with God really is a private one, but as you said, we do need someone to mentor us, someone who we can trust to help answer questions and counsel us at times, just someone to talk about God with. These forums are really good for that, but I think we need to physically be around Christians as well.

[ephraimanesti]

I don't want to be part of a church. I've heard the reasons why being a part of a Christian community is important, but it's the last thing I want. I've been to many Churches, church groups, and Bible studies, and I hate it. I hate all the phony friendliness I get from people, and the mindless, automatic faith that many people seem to have. Most of all, I hate the hypocritical attitudes that people have. A good Christian should want all people to be saved, but it seems to me like the majority of people who call themselves Christians are actually using their faith as a means to convince themselves that they are superior to others. A lot of church gatherings seem, to me, to be a group of people sitting around patting one another on the back for being so good when everyone else is so evil.

I'm sorry if all of this seems a bit harsh. I'm really not trying to be offensive or insulting to any particular person or group. I just feel a Christian community can often be humanity at its ugliest and I would just as soon not see the beautiful side if I have to see the ugly side as well, because it's that ugly side that will stick with me. That's the kind of person I am. That's why I'm so reluctant to join a church. I don't want to be indoctrinated into this system of self-serving hypocrisy.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Your harshness (more that "a bit") and your judgmentalism are not auspicious beginnings to your search for the TRUTH.

You need to open your spiritual eyes and not see things with your blurry fleshly vision.

When using the latter, we tend to see things outside of ourselves which are REALLY INSIDE US.

When using the former, we see OURSELVES CLEARLY and have no need to look outside.

BE VERY CAREFUL HERE--satan is playing with your head! Scripture is quite clear about our need to assemble ourselves together before the Lord as brothers and sisters in Christ. OBEDIENCE IS KEY!

IN CHRIST,
ephraim

[ephraimanesti]

I want my relationship with God to be private, or between God and my family when I have one, but I still feel like I need someone to turn to for advice or answers.

MY BROTHER,

"Private relationships with God" are a spiritual impossibility. We are either FAMILY IN THE LIGHT or LONERS IN THE DARKNESS.

BY YOUR STIPULATING THE IMPOSSIBLE YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP FOR FAILURE--as, i am willing to bet, you have in the past.

IF NOTHING CHANGES--NOTHING CHANGES!


ephraim

[heymikey80]

Hi Morgan. I'm a child of a mixed marriage of an agnostic / self-religion and a Christian. Maybe I can help with a little of this.

If you look in Scripture you find Jesus saying a lot of things about the church; Paul and the Apostles say alot too. They're pretty heady things. But both also say a lot about the church being a human institution. It can be faulty. It can be cultic. It can have problems, big problems that can sometimes destroy it as a church. If you read Jesus' letters to the churches in the first chapters of Revelation, you'll find they're often very concrete. They talk about the cults of the day, they warn the church it can be removed from Christ's care.

So yes, the church is a human institution. But it's also a spiritual one. The church is instituted to bring Christians to helping one another with the Spirit of Christ that they all have (cf. 1 Corinthians 12-13). When a church is a good church, the Spirit of God works in it and not other spirits.

To my view you're discovering that fact: you're seeking to regain that spiritual closeness -- but your friend definitely steered you right, it's not just any spirit who will grow you, you have to watch for the Spirit of Christ.

It's not easy to find a church that will grow you, I know, and I'm sorry our history has made it so hard. There are churches of all denominations that have the Spirit at work, in strength, among the church. You might ask in the "congregation" areas here to find people who think like you do about God. I'm sure they can recommend some denominations, and advise you about others that may be more straying.

Often in a cult you find a good thing, used wrongly. We're to submit to one another -- cults exploit that by gaining too much power. We're to love one another -- cults transform that into lust. We're to give to one another -- cults enrich leaders at the expense of followers. We're to learn from one another -- cults teach us things that often leave us spinning in circles, or living out darkness.

So there's reason to be aware & wary when you're talking with a church. But there's also reason for hope. Christ made the church to bring you into communion with your brothers -- His people, His family, those He sacrificed His life for. He made it. It's for you.

[PowderedGold]

BY YOUR STIPULATING THE IMPOSSIBLE YOU ARE SETTING YOURSELF UP FOR FAILURE--as, i am willing to bet, you have in the past.

With God, all things are possible, though, right?

I have been severe and short-sighted in my arguments, I realize that now after reading some of the kind and well-written responses I've received.

I don't know what it is about me. I think perhaps I am afraid to be pushed into believing something that I don't believe in my heart to be true, which I think is possible when one becomes involved with a Christian group. I might join Church A or Church B and find that I disagree with each churches interpretation of the Bible and move on. But I could do this forever and never be content. If that happens, my only option would be to compromise and believe something with my mouth that I don't believe with my heart. I've tried that before (I had a brief stint of nearly joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and it just doesn't work for me.

Maybe another problem is that I hate the hellfire and brimstone, damnation type of preaching but it remains very popular, particularly in the United States. I don't want to go to church and hear people talking about why this group or that group, or this person or that person, is going to Hell, like sinners casting stones. I want to go to church to hear about God's love, Jesus's compassion, and how to lead a better life through example. As I mentioned before, I've thought about being a minister myself, and I know that I would try to convert followers by showing them God's grace, not threatening them with God's wrath.

[TrustingmyLord]

Thanks for not taking offense, none was intended of course, and I am so glad you saw that.

Wow, I can relate to you so much, its insane. When I first got out of the one church that was, well, cultic, I was so leery of churches, of their beliefs, etc. I thought I needed a church that believed every single thing exactly like I did, and since I was getting my beliefs straight out of the Bible, that shouldnt be too much to ask form a church, should it?? But instead, I found that even the "good" non-cultic churches were so very different in their beliefs. I must have been so difficult for them, insisting to know their every small belief on everything, from the moment I went in the door.

What I finally realized was that while there are some very firm beliefs taught in the Bible, such as: Jesus is the only way, the trinity, how to be saved, and so on, there are many things in the Bible that do not seem so clear. We know Jesus will return, we know about the tribulation, but some believe in a rapture, some dont, some believe the rapture will be before the trib, some believe it is after, etc. These ideas can be found in the Bible, yes, but it does not state out a clear timeline. Well, some believe it does.

I was very confused because of the things I had learned in the cult type church, (it is NOT listed as a cult, ) and while I did know that their false phrophetess was false, and knew without a doubt that their legalism was unBiblical, they did teach a few things that seem to make sense, things I found in the Bible and still halfway believe to this day. No regular church believes these things, as indeed, there are some scriptures for both beliefs, but I have seen more scriptures for the belief than against it.

Anyway, to my point. Some beliefs are firm, uncompromisable. Others can be speculated about, and we may never know while we are on earth. I have found a church that believes these firm truths that I believe are important, and then there are some smaller details in which we differ on our opinions. But what I have found is this: not everyone in the church is forced to believe the smaller things, the debatable things. For example, our church believes that having a woman as pastor is unBiblical, and I agree with this. But I have a very dear friend, much wiser than I, a very Godly woman, and she believes women can be in leadership and this is ok. She doesnt demand that her way is right, or make a big fuss about it, but its what she believes.

In my sunday school class we learn straight from the Bible. We search vigilantly to find what God is trying to tell us. We discuss different ideas and if someone has some thoughts that are different, thats cool too. I really love this class.

I, too, hate the hell and brinstone type preaching, but theres another type out there that is just as bad, if not worse. Those who teach a "feel good" prosperity gospel. Its al about what God can do for you, how he will bless you, constant talk about the blessings of God, with no talk at all of obedience or trying to live a Christian life. I think both types of preaching are horrible off the mark.

Just know this, if you do end up visiting a few different churches, you WILL find some screwed up ones, you WILL find some filled with mostly judgemental people, and you will also find that some churches are crazy about their legalism, no nail polish, no men with long hair, women must wear dresses, etc. God doesnt care about all that.

Also know that God uses each of these experiences we have to teach us something. Sometimes we dont realize it until later, but he slowly molds us and teaches us His ways. The main thing is, dont give up on people. We all mess up, but there really are people out there worth knowing and there are indeed churches that are determined to teach Gods truth and not their own.

[ephraimanesti]

With God, all things are possible, though, right?

MY FRIEND,

All things are indeed possible with God, but it our acceptance through the exercise of our free-will--which God will not violate under any circumstances--which will dictate the final outcome for us as individuals.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

[Ishida]

Churches are full of hypocrites, right?
I think they always have room for one more.

[ephraimanesti]

There are many mature Christians who share your views about church. Some have just abandoned attending anything formal. Others are trying small groups and home churches. Some do find somewhere that is really suitable for them Others attend traditional churches, while trying to live out a Christ like life at a personal level and hope thereby to influence others.

So, you are not alone.
Bless you
John
NZ
MY BROTHER,

You have well described the various "options" available to "mature Christians." There are pros and cons to each--a lot depending on the attitude of the person who chooses one particular option over another.

My feeling--after dabbling in all of them at one time or another--is that to reject the injunction "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing . . ." (Hebrews 10:25) due to the fact that "the Church is full of hypocrites" is, well, hypocritical.

From the beginning, he Church has ALWAYS been "full of hypocrites"--beginning with the Apostles who were hypocritical cowards who denied and abandoned their Lord at His time of greatest need.

It is MOST IMPORTANT, to paraphrase Paul, that i/we never forget that God came to save hypocrites, of whom i/we are chief. Our Lord can much easier be denied with a kiss than with a slap.

For this reason, i would choose the last option you described:
Others attend traditional churches, while trying to live out a Christ like life at a personal level and hope thereby to influence others.
i believe that if we stop worrying about the "purity of the Church" and begin worrying about the "PURITY OF OUR HEARTS"--we AND the Bride of Christ will become what our Lord died and rose again in order that we might be.

There is not--AND NEVER CAN BE--a COMPLETELY pure vessel--either individually or collectively--to contain the Holy Spirit while we are in the flesh. The sooner we realize and accept this and begin, as Christians, to "bloom where we are planted" instead of running around in circles trying to create the wheel, the sooner we--individually and collectively--will find ourselves in our Lord's will and being transformed into His Image. In the process of removing the beams from our own eyes, we likewise remove the speck from the eyes of the collective Body of Christ--the Church.

UNLESS HERESY IS BEING TAUGHT--GOD'S SPIRIT IS THERE AMONG ALL THOSE--few though they may be--WHO LOVE AND SERVE THE LORD!

PEACE, LOVE, AND UNITY TO ALL OF GOD'S CHURCH!
ephraim

[PowderedGold]

Speaking of heresy, here is a link to some information about the cult with which I was involved. I suggest you all read it for your own edification and just in case you encounter this group.

www.cultwatch.org (http://www.cultwatch.org)

Go to that site, then click on "Cults", then on "ICC."

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi :)
We all feel doubt sometimes, but what I've learned is that faith is a choice, not a feeling. Feelings come afterwards. Everytime you feel doubt, try to choose to believe anyway...and your faith might grow.

I understand what you are saying about church...a relationship with God is what truly counts, and I've known really strong Christians who don't ever go to church. But whether or not you go to church, I think it's really helpful to have Christian friends. We should not give up meeting together, as it says in the Bible. We always have God, but sometimes we're weak and find it difficult to approach Him :( but He can use people around us to help. There was a time in my life when I didn't know any Christians at all, and I felt really lonely. Yes, there are bad religious people out there, and Christians aren't perfect. That's why we need God :) But we should love them all anyway, and try to show God's light to others.

No church is perfect, but there are those that teach good doctrine. Make sure you really know what you believe and that it's from the Bible, pray about it, and don't compromise...don't go to a church that teaches something you find very wrong. But I don't think you should give up looking for one, because there are good churches out there, and good Christians :) I hope you find something...and I pray that God would guide you to the right people.

God bless!

monica

ps: Happy Birthday! :D

[ktwalker]

Church is not always an option, I visited the only church In my village and it really wasn't for me, transportation issues mean that i can't try a different church so I must be content to worship by myself, i can sypathise with yuor desire for someone to share discussions with and pray that god will guide you to the right form of worship for you,

on a different note

what are anyones opinions of online churches?

[artgaldayna]

It is good to go to a Christian church, but you are correct in saying many churches are in fact not Christian at all. Though it may be awkward at first, I encourage you to either call or visit churches and ask a questions about their teaching. Some important things for a church to believe are:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 separate persons of the one God (though it seems basic some cults refute this)
Justification only by grace through faith alone
That the Bible is inspired by God and is fully trustworthy and true.

A very, very important teaching of a Christian church is the teaching of God's law: the rules (the Ten Commandments) that show us our sin. If a church denies the following Scripture, I am afraid it is not a church under God.
Romans 3:10 Luke 13:3 Romans 6:23 Romans 5:8
The church must teach repentance, rather than just 'acceptance' of the message of Christ. This is important: even if someone says Jesus is Lord, he must personally come to hate sin and personally love God Himself in order to be 'born again' , or to be saved from eternal death.
Many churches have hypocrisy because they do not acknowledge that we are sinners: we are disgusting creatures without Christ.
I really hope you can find a Church that teaches the Bible - adding nothing and taking nothing away.
God bless you.

The church must agree that we must understand and see our sin, and turn from our sin - and despise our sin.