So what is your new churches official view on....

[stivvy]

In regard to choosing His male apostles, Mark says that Jesus called to Him "those whom He desired" (Mk 3:13). This proves that Jesus chose men according to His desire, and not according to the culture. Since Jesus' will was perfectly united to that of the Father, He cannot be criticizing for choosing males only, without indicting God Himself.

[D'Ann]

yup... that makes sense. HUGS

[Fish and Bread]

So what is your new churches official view on....

You'll have to ask our new Pope. ;)

[Protinus]

In regard to choosing His male apostles, Mark says that Jesus called to Him "those whom He desired" (Mk 3:13). This proves that Jesus chose men according to His desire, and not according to the culture. Since Jesus' will was perfectly united to that of the Father, He cannot be criticizing for choosing males only, without indicting God Himself.

it is not a church stivvy. That is lame. Where is your church?

[Lel]

Well, this isn't a church.

But seriously, women were uneducated and society was more stratified then. In a time like this maybe Jesus would have called a few female apostles, who knows?

Why is it so important what gender a priest is anyway?

[JasonV]

In regard to choosing His male apostles, Mark says that Jesus called to Him "those whom He desired" (Mk 3:13). This proves that Jesus chose men according to His desire, and not according to the culture. Since Jesus' will was perfectly united to that of the Father, He cannot be criticizing for choosing males only, without indicting God Himself.

Which church? Those in communion with Rome? I suspect you know that one.

The Lutherans or Anglicans here? Guess we'll wait for an answer to that.

Old Catholics? Which denomination? My own has women in both the Minor and Major Orders.

As for disciples, I believe Jesus showed us who were His favorites when he resurrected. And unless I'm not mistaken, they were all WOMEN! :thumbsup:

[WarriorAngel]

No one knew Jesus better I suggest, than His Own Mother.
If someone were choosen on knowledge..and having undisputable Grace from the start....and being the teacher to Jesus ...it would be His Mother.
Who home schooled Him.;)

Women were not considered stupid in those ages...

They just were not choosen for the role imparted on men.

Just as we do not see women football players, because the role was created with men in mind.

I am not debating if anyone's opinion is valid or invalid, I am just giving a thought about what Lel said.

[Protinus]

Which church? Those in communion with Rome? I suspect you know that one.

The Lutherans or Anglicans here? Guess we'll wait for an answer to that.

Old Catholics? Which denomination? My own has women in both the Minor and Major Orders.

As for disciples, I believe Jesus showed us who were His favorites when he resurrected. And unless I'm not mistaken, they were all WOMEN! :thumbsup:


thanks Jason, the first individuals who witnessed our risen Lord where women. And we need to talk about those women and the first disciples!!

[Protinus]

No one knew Jesus better I suggest, than His Own Mother.
If someone were choosen on knowledge..and having undisputable Grace from the start....and being the teacher to Jesus ...it would be His Mother.
Who home schooled Him.;)

Women were not considered stupid in those ages...

They just were not choosen for the role imparted on men.

Just as we do not see women football players, because the role was created with men in mind.

I am not debating if anyone's opinion is valid or invalid, I am just giving a thought about what Lel said.
here we go...i'm sorry to have nm

[Fish and Bread]

Just as we do not see women football players, because the role was created with men in mind.


I'm not taking sides here, but the football fan in me feels compelled to point out that the NFL has no rule prohibiting women from playing. :) It just happens that no woman has yet shown an ability to compete at an NFL level. Duke University did once have a female kicker train with them, though, and there is an all-women pro league, so people do seem to in theory be open to women playing.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled theology discussion. :)

[Protinus]

it's interesting that WA is the first to freely be able to freely ask this question!! Thanks WA!!:clap:

we all know what "free" is.


we are are talking freely given fellowship and discourse and service...no less.

[stivvy]

The Catholic church says that marriage is between man and woman. This is backed by scripture where the lude acts of homosexuals are condemned time and time again (Rom 1:27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10).

We Catholics do show love for those born in the life of homosexuality but are against the actions of homosexuality between two of the same sex persons (or persons with animals). Since you are not in communion with the official Catholic church, what is your church's backing on your stance of same sex marriage? Please show sources as I am genuinely interested in finding an answer...

[PetertheRock]

Jesus warned us there would be a great falling away from the Church near the end of time. With what I can see in here I can see the liberals falling away in great numbers.

[stivvy]

Choices of those that put the world before God and His Church and no faith in the leadership because they refuse to bow to the world instead of God's laws.

They are "Pro-Choice" Peter, "Pro-Choice"

[PetertheRock]

Choices of those that put the world before God and His Church and no faith in the leadership because they refuse to bow to the world instead of God's laws.

They are "Pro-Choice" Peter, "Pro-Choice"
You know what I find humorous. It's no secret that before the "new changes" on this forum I felt my conservative views were being attacked by some of the mods and admins on here. I know I am not the only one that felt that the conservative viewpoint (that is to say traditional Catholic teaching) was being supressed on here. But yet it's the liberals that are whining and complaining saying they have been the victims.

Why does this not surprise me. I am not in favor of a liberal Catholic forum just as I am not in favor of a conservative or traditional Catholic forum. I feel if the liberal Catholics get their way and have this place or another place where they can just pick and choose whatever teaching of the Church they want to follow and whatever teaching of the Church (hint: Jesus is the Church) they want to throw away they will just be dancing and singing "I did it my way" on their merry way to Hell and bringing who knows how many souls with them. This is the real danger of this forum.

[JasonV]

Stivvy,

As we attempt to set the tone for this forum, please attempt to reword your posting in such a manner as to be one of courteous inquisitivity, rather than the accusatory you are taking.

Pax Vobiscum.

[Protinus]

Stivvy,

As we attempt to set the tone for this forum, please attempt to reword your posting in such a manner as to be one of courteous inquisitivity, rather than the accusatory you are taking.

Pax Vobiscum.

I bring a whole new dimension of trolling jason...let them declare themselves.

[Fish and Bread]

I am not in favor of a liberal Catholic forum just as I am not in favor of a conservative or traditional Catholic forum. I feel if the liberal Catholics get their way and have this place or another place where they can just pick and choose whatever teaching of the Church they want to follow and whatever teaching of the Church (hint: Jesus is the Church) they want to throw away they will just be dancing and singing "I did it my way" on their merry way to Hell and bringing who knows how many souls with them. This is the real danger of this forum.

Peter, I appreciate your concerns for people's souls. That shows compassion. I hope, however, that you'll understand that this is just an Internet forum and that people rarely take it too seriously and, when they do, the results are not always what one anticipates. A lot of folks who have viewed OBOB have formed negative impressions of Catholicism based on their experience there, in addition to those who have formed positive ones. Some of those people may actually form more favorable opinions of Catholicism based on a forum that has a different culture. Nothing about this forum so far refutes anything the magesterium teachers, it is just an open forum where no one is required to affirm anything or to be anything -- just a group of friends, chatting. It's a different approach than OBOB, not necessarily any better or any worse, just different.

[Annabel Lee]

The Catholic church says that marriage is between man and woman. This is backed by scripture where the lude acts of homosexuals are condemned time and time again (Rom 1:27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10).

We Catholics do show love for those born in the life of homosexuality but are against the actions of homosexuality between two of the same sex persons (or persons with animals). Since you are not in communion with the official Catholic church, what is your church's backing on your stance of same sex marriage? Please show sources as I am genuinely interested in finding an answer...

Who exactly is 'you'? I see quite a few posters here that are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

[JasonV]

Good question Annabel. As far as I can tell, I'm the only self-styled Catholic on this board who is not in communion with the See of Rome.

[stivvy]

Who exactly is 'you'? I see quite a few posters here that are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.
Well if those that agree with the Catholic church stance are here, then yes they are in communion with Her. But if they do not then they are not in communion with her.

From what I understand, this forum was started because the "you" I speak of has these issues with the Catholic church. So I want to find out what the their church's stance is. I am intrieged.

[WarriorAngel]

I'm not taking sides here, but the football fan in me feels compelled to point out that the NFL has no rule prohibiting women from playing. :) It just happens that no woman has yet shown an ability to compete at an NFL level. Duke University did once have a female kicker train with them, though, and there is an all-women pro league, so people do seem to in theory be open to women playing.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled theology discussion. :)


AS I said...
because the role was created with men in mind.

Which doesn't negate the fact that the new NFL rules under societal dictation
[I'll sue you if you dont let me join] status dominates the new ruling to allow women.

BUT the role was created with men in mind.

Just as Jesus created the role of Bishop/priest/Pope with men in mind.

But I thank you considerably for demonstrating how the world tries to dictate and blur the lines of what was originally intended. ;)

Although that doesn't mean God is changing just because the world is. In fact we are told He is constant and unchanging.

I love you all, and thank for you allowing me this brief discussion.

May God bring you all peace!

[Annabel Lee]

Well if those that agree with the Catholic church stance are here, then yes they are in communion with Her. But if they do not then they are not in communion with her.

From what I understand, this forum was started because the "you" I speak of has these issues with the Catholic church. So I want to find out what the their church's stance is. I am intrieged.

Stivvy, what church are you talking about?

I think a majority of those that wanted a new forum had issues with OBOB, not necessarily the Catholic church.

[WarriorAngel]

:scratch: Issues with OBOB...how so?

[JasonV]

AS I said...
because the role was created with men in mind.

Which doesn't negate the fact that the new NFL rules under societal dictation
[I'll sue you if you dont let me join] status dominates the new ruling to allow women.

BUT the role was created with men in mind.

Just as Jesus created the role of Bishop/priest/Pope with men in mind.

But I thank you considerably for demonstrating how the world tries to dictate and blur the lines of what was originally intended. ;)

Although that doesn't mean God is changing just because the world is. In fact we are told He is constant and unchanging.

I love you all, and thank for you allowing me this brief discussion.

May God bring you all peace!

But Jesus had women as disciples. God has used women as vehicles for prophecy too. There were Sects in early Christianity that allowed women a greater role than did the Great Church. Just because one sect that did not allow for a greater role for women became dominant, does not mean that it's right.

As Thomas Paine said: "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." (Common Sense)

[WarriorAngel]

But Jesus had women as disciples. God has used women as vehicles for prophecy too. There were Sects in early Christianity that allowed women a greater role than did the Great Church. Just because one sect that did not allow for a greater role for women became dominant, does not mean that it's right.

As Thomas Paine said: "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." (Common Sense)

Yes everyone followed and served Christ, no doubt.
And they loved Him and did so for Him.

But when it came to teaching outside the parables, it was always the Choosen men whom He defined these things to.
Taking them aside away from the disciples.

He had a variety of disciples...and women also followed Him....however it was the Apostles He choose whom were given instructions about what He meant. It was the 12 Choosen whom were present at the LAST SUPPER.

It was the Choosen whom went out on Pentecost to Teach...



There is a difference.

I also add that women do have roles in the Church..Different, not less meaningful.

[JasonV]

WarriorAngel,

I respect your views, and they are quite Orthodox. I differ in my belief. I see women as the faithful disciples of Christ. No woman ever denied the Christ. There were gospels that were omitted from our Bible because they gave women too prominent a role in the Church.

There were female Deacons, and likely Bishops as well.

But your tradition merits respect, and I don't wish to debate it with you.

Pax Vobiscum.

[WarriorAngel]

As Thomas Paine said: "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." (Common Sense)

I will give some insight to why women were not choosen at that time...and why things in the world of God go unchanged...

See, God made us different sexes, and He made us different Roles.
God is not a respecter of the world nor does it influence Him.....

Jesus never had qualms with being 'different' OR AUTHORITATIVE ...which is part why He was Crucified....

Therefore I find it difficult to accept He was concerned with the cultural aspect regarding women, IF He had ever intended them to be His choosen preachers, they would have been duly noted as such.

Jesus is unchanging...
He is faithful and cannot deny Himself.
Paul tells us that in Timothy.

So outside influences such as the world, neither influenced Christ....nor will it change His mind in our time...since He is outside of time.

I enjoyed our discussion.

God Bless.

[WarriorAngel]

WarriorAngel,

I respect your views, and they are quite Orthodox. I differ in my belief. I see women as the faithful disciples of Christ. No woman ever denied the Christ. There were gospels that were omitted from our Bible because they gave women too prominent a role in the Church.

There were female Deacons, and likely Bishops as well.

But your tradition merits respect, and I don't wish to debate it with you.

Pax Vobiscum.

I was going to leave...but you made a comment I do not believe you have the full truth to.
:crossrc:

Deaconess is quite different than a Deacon.

Her role was subject to helping women in baptism because of 'decency' purposes.

I also have their Rite of blessing on hand, and it is not the same as a male Deacon's [pre-ordination] of position with the inclusion that his role may obtain to the priesthood.

Just wanted to help inform you that Tradition has not left us totally unaware ...

Again, God Bless. :crossrc:

[stivvy]

Stivvy, what church are you talking about?

I think a majority of those that wanted a new forum had issues with OBOB, not necessarily the Catholic church.
In the discussion group on starting this group, it was stated that "The Liberal Catholic Church" has issues with a whole list of points with the Catholic Church. So I am just getting clearity on "The Liberal Catholic Church's" stance on the said issues.

[_Shannon_]

I also have their Rite of blessing on hand, and it is not the same as a male Deacon's [pre-ordination] of position with the inclusion that his role may obtain to the priesthood.

Just wanted to help inform you that Tradition has not left us totally unaware ...

Again, God Bless. :crossrc:

Just a nit picky point that deacons are ordained and receive Holy Orders.

[WarriorAngel]

Just a nit picky point that deacons are ordained and receive Holy Orders.

I don't know where you are coming from...
But it is apparently not nit picky to some who are under the impression the roles are the same.... which is leading some into thinking the Role is going to possibly lead to women Bishops.


Originally Posted by JasonV http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36838461#post36838461)
WarriorAngel,

I respect your views, and they are quite Orthodox. I differ in my belief. I see women as the faithful disciples of Christ. No woman ever denied the Christ. There were gospels that were omitted from our Bible because they gave women too prominent a role in the Church.

There were female Deacons, and likely Bishops as well.

But your tradition merits respect, and I don't wish to debate it with you.

Pax Vobiscum.

[MikeK]

This is backed by scripture where the lude acts of homosexuals are condemned time and time again (Rom 1:27; 1 Cor 6:9; 1 Tim 1:10).



I don't know why the good book won't just let the homosexuals relax just a bit. ;)

[JasonV]

In the discussion group on starting this group, it was stated that "The Liberal Catholic Church" has issues with a whole list of points with the Catholic Church. So I am just getting clearity on "The Liberal Catholic Church's" stance on the said issues.

To my knowledge, stivvy, I am the only person at CF that belongs to the denomination called "The Liberal Catholic Church, International".

So it would be really strange to have a forum, sub-forum, or anyplace dedicated to the teachings of just my church.

I thought that was pretty obvious, but maybe Mr. Obvious is on vacation. :doh:

[JasonV]

WarriorAngel,

I really don't want to debate this point with you. I know you have the rites used in ordaining men to the Diaconate, but must I really point out that the rites you have do not go back 2000 years? Must I be the one to tell you that Jesus didn't write down the liturgy as you have it, or that he didn't have a golden copy of the Catechism brought from heaven and handed to St. Peter? (light jab at our Mormon friends....)

Things, a lot of things, have changed in the last two millenia.

[stivvy]

No, Protinus mentioned it over and over and over again. He was callenged to explain it, but avoided it over and over again as he does here with all my questions.

[Protinus]

I am not avoiding anything and actually, I'm in the OR right now and can't posst really...so chill out until I can respond.

[WarriorAngel]

WarriorAngel,

I really don't want to debate this point with you. I know you have the rites used in ordaining men to the Diaconate, but must I really point out that the rites you have do not go back 2000 years? Must I be the one to tell you that Jesus didn't write down the liturgy as you have it, or that he didn't have a golden copy of the Catechism brought from heaven and handed to St. Peter? (light jab at our Mormon friends....)

Things, a lot of things, have changed in the last two millenia.

Further it is certain (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539b.htm) that a ritual was in use for the ordination (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11279a.htm) of deaconesses by the laying on of hands (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07698a.htm) which was closely modeled on the ritual for the ordination (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11279a.htm) of a deacon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm). For example, the Apostolic Constitutions (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01636a.htm) say:

Concerning a deaconess, I, Bartholomew enjoin O Bishop (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm), thou shalt lay thy hands upon her with all the Presbytery (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12395a.htm) and the Deacons (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm) and the Deaconesses and thou shalt say: Eternal God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), the creator of man (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) and woman (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm), that didst fill with the Spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Huldah, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm); Thou that in the tabernacle of witness (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15677a.htm) and in the temple didst appoint women (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm) guardians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07051a.htm) of thy holy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07386a.htm) gates: Do thou now look on this thy handmaid, who is appointed unto the office of a Deaconess and grant unto her the Holy Spirit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm), and cleanse her from all pollution of the flesh and of the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unto her, to thy glory (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) and the praise of thy Christ.
Comparing this form with that given in the same work with that for the ordination (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11279a.htm) of deacons (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm) we may notice that the reference to the outpouring of Holy Ghost (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm) in the latter case is much more strongly worded: "fill him with the spirit and with power as thou didst fill Stephen the martyr (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm) and follower of the sufferings of thy Christ". Moreover, in the case of the deacon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm), prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) is made that he "may be counted worthy of a higher standing", a clause which not improbably has reference to the possibility of advance to a higher ecclesiastical (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) dignity as priest (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm) or bishop (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm), no such praise being used in the case of the deaconess.
link (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm)

[JasonV]

Ever heard of redaction? I am inclined to accept your thesis generally speaking, but I also believe there have been exceptions, even in Orthodoxy, about women in the Priesthood and Episcopate.

At any rate, I am not of the view that women are unable to hold Holy Orders, as if they were some second-class human. I found the rampant sexism of Eastern Orthodoxy sickening in that regard, which is just one of many reasons why I had to leave that fold.

[_Shannon_]

I don't know where you are coming from...
But it is apparently not nit picky to some who are under the impression the roles are the same.... which is leading some into thinking the Role is going to possibly lead to women Bishops.
I was just saying that you were not precise that the rite of deacons could be pre-ordination....it doesn't really have anything to do with this conversation-just sayin' :)

[WarriorAngel]

Ever heard of redaction? I am inclined to accept your thesis generally speaking, but I also believe there have been exceptions, even in Orthodoxy, about women in the Priesthood and Episcopate.

At any rate, I am not of the view that women are unable to hold Holy Orders, as if they were some second-class human. I found the rampant sexism of Eastern Orthodoxy sickening in that regard, which is just one of many reasons why I had to leave that fold.

Therein lies your issue.

Seeing women not being allowed to be a priest or such is YOU and in YOUR mind, saying we are second class.

That is not true. What is true is that God gave women a DIFFERENT role in life and in the Church.

Would you consider God mistaken for allowing women to be the sex to carry life inside their bodies?

Men cannot do it... are they disgusted?

Women cannot be the ones who procreate as men do.... should we stand up and call ourselves second class?

Women are first class bud. :thumbsup: WE just do not share the same positions and roles in the Church.

I am a woman, this doesn't bother me. I am fully submitting to the Authority Christ had and has to call men.

He also calls women in many other ways.

Was Christ, who didn't give a fig for the world's opinions, choose a woman to be an Apostle?

That's the answer.

Women rock...just in another capacity. :wave:

[WarriorAngel]

FWIW.... women are nurturers...
The woman nurturers the ppl another way. Ministering to children [their fortiet] and others in a capacity of reaching out and sharing emotions deeply.

Many women are teaching, administering to the needy children of the world...and caring for the sick and elderly....

WHY is that? Because these are things women do best.

Women are different...we perspire different, ask Secret. :P

[kiwimac]

Good question Annabel. As far as I can tell, I'm the only self-styled Catholic on this board who is not in communion with the See of Rome.

Hey, I'm lurking!

[JasonV]

Therein lies your issue.

Seeing women not being allowed to be a priest or such is YOU and in YOUR mind, saying we are second class.

I know, I know...thinking for myself again. ;)

That is not true. What is true is that God gave women a DIFFERENT role in life and in the Church.

Would you consider God mistaken for allowing women to be the sex to carry life inside their bodies?

That is what we call a Red Herring. Introducing a topic that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

If you told me that women could not be professional chef's, and I argued they could, and you introduced this nonsense about having babies, what does that have to do with anything?

Men cannot do it... are they disgusted?

Well Men can do it...in a test tube. :P

Honestly, if a woman is called, her vocation discerned properly, then I would argue the Holy Spirit has sanctioned her vocation and that's it. I'm not arguing that everyone should be ordained, only those whom God has chosen.

[JasonV]

Hey, I'm lurking!

It's about time! (Hey, do you librarything.com with the same username?)

[kiwimac]

After spending an awful amount of time online yesterday, my wife told me to go to bed! slept for 12 hours. feel much better.

Coming up next an interesting discussion (I hope)

[Protinus]

welcome kiwamac!!!!:wave:

[fragmentsofdreams]

You'll have to ask our new Pope. ;)

Where is Teshi?

[Protinus]

Where is Teshi?
:(
I have no idea...I miss her.

[Caedmon]

Wow. I didn't know that posting in this forum automatically placed you into a new church of married lesbian priests.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Strangely, the most persuasive argument against women priests I've seen was a call for humility. The argument merely raised the possibility that some insight was clear to those who have gone before us but is lost to us now. It does not attempt to make a proof, but the call to humility is a challenge slow down and discern carefully.

[Annabel Lee]

Wow. I didn't know that posting in this forum automatically placed you into a new church of married lesbian priests.

Lol!