Wolf Invasion

[BelindaP]

Just as the OBOB'ers predicted, the wolves are here. Or at least I am. Just wanted to say 'hi' and mark the shiny new forum.

:wave:

[Protinus]

Just as the OBOB'ers predicted, the wolves are here. Or at least I am. Just wanted to say 'hi' and mark the shiny new forum.

:wave:
so true...bless you Belinda for your true discernment and ability to make a case for true fellowship. Please contribute as a founder in Christ.

[JasonV]

I'm glad you're here!

[Pogue]

:wave:

*howls*

*forages for food*

[PetertheRock]

I had a big long thought out post written out on the request topic but by the time I got ready to send it the topic had been closed and I lost the post. I guess God didn't want me to post it.

I will just hope that the liberals with their schismatic views stay here and leave us with the OBOB.

[Protinus]

I will just hope that the liberals with their schismatic views stay here and leave us with the OBOB.
you have your wish...but this is online. You can not escape the changes in the Church in real life and in your heart.

[Protinus]

:wave:

*howls*

*forages for food*
bless your soul for the good fight and the thread that you started in WWMC. I read all of your concerns and I respect all of them! Please know that I appreciate all of your support in the original thread.

[JasonV]

Well Peter, you are welcome to post here as well.

[Pogue]

bless your soul for the good fight and the thread that you started in WWMC. I read all of your concerns and I respect all of them! Please know that I appreciate all of your support in the original thread.

Aw, thanks! For what it's worth, I think you did well in sticking to what you wanted and for keeping calm in what turned out to be quite a heated debate. Hopefully now we'll have a period of calm for a bit :)

[Benedicta00]

you have your wish...but this is online. You can not escape the changes in the Church in real life and in your heart.
What has changed in the Church?

[SiobhanClancy]

I'm DELIGHTED to see this (sub)forum,and look forward to interacting with fellow liberal Catholics. I never felt a bit comfortable about particiapting in OBOB,as I am one of those "bad Catholics"...but Catholic nonetheless.:)

[Protinus]

What has changed in the Church?
nothing has changed Michelle...my ability to finally express myself has changed....though I dissent.

[Protinus]

I'm DELIGHTED to see this (sub)forum,and look forward to interacting with fellow liberal Catholics. I never felt a bit comfortable about particiapting in OBOB,as I am one of those "bad Catholics"...but Catholic nonetheless.:)

you are not a bad catholic...that is what we are trying to dispel here...we are with Christ and our Church...we fail often.

bless you for coming and please contribute!

[Benedicta00]

nothing has changed Michelle...my ability to finally express myself has changed....though I dissent.
FWIW, I'm happy you can freely express yourself with out the harassment.

I just feel bad for you (that's sincere) because Prot, the pope is not going to change anything you want him too, the last one didn't, this one won't do it and the next won't either. Why? because a pope is powerless to change the faith Jesus left for us.

I just feel bad because your wasting a lot of energy and your being hurt.

[drstevej]

Can I be the Liberal Catholic Forum's official "Separated Brother" ???
or perhaps grounds keeper of the Tulip garden ???

non voting that is

[Protinus]

FWIW, I'm happy you can freely express yourself with out the harassment.

I just feel bad for you (that's sincere) because Prot, the pope is not going to change anything you want him too, the last one didn't, this one won't do it and the next won't either. Why? because a pope is powerless to change the faith Jesus left for us.

I just feel bad because your wasting a lot of energy and your being hurt.

I'm glad you identify my pain but I am empowered to change tradition, as a lay person...I offer it up every day...my dissent ; then I derive strength, that I am able to satisfy change in my Church before Him. That carries me.

[Protinus]

Can I be the Liberal Catholic Forum's official "Separated Brother" ???
or perhaps grounds keeper of the Tulip garden ???

non voting that is
you are very welcome!!

[_Shannon_]

I'm glad you identify my pain but I am empowered to change tradition, as a lay person...I offer it up every day...my dissent ; then I derive strength, that I am able to satisfy change in my Church before Him. That carries me.
That is actually a huge struggle of mine-- the Head can do nothing without the Body.

[Protinus]

That is actually a huge struggle of mine-- the Head can do nothing without the Body.

bless you for coming here...you are so meaningful to me Shannon. It helps so much!

[_Shannon_]

I'm just a gal struggling to be holy...

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Just as the OBOB'ers predicted, the wolves are here. Or at least I am. Just wanted to say 'hi' and mark the shiny new forum.

:wave:
/me gives the cute wolf a hug. :P

[BelindaP]

Aw, thanks. You think I'm cute? I'm going to have to work harder on my vicious.

[Protinus]

so we keep Charlie and belinda coming back here for the love connection?:scratch:

We're in formation!! please respect us!!:sick: :wave:

[Protinus]

just kidding...we are taking all members right now!!

[BelindaP]

I promise not to debate too much.
And so you know just what breed of wolf I am, I'm a Lutheran--bane to Catholics everywhere. :P

[drstevej]

I'm thinking I'd rather be the forum Token FUN-dy

[Protinus]

you guys are going to leave after 2 months...we know.

[drstevej]

I'll visit from time to time. But I don't want to share the sunshine all in one place. Others would be jealous.

Make sure you invite me to the grand opening when you get your own place.

[Protinus]

I'll visit from time to time. But I don't want to share the sunshine all in one place. Others would be jealous.

Make sure you invite me to the grand opening when you get your own place.


I know we will have you from time to time steve...thank you for you support for this new sub-forum and we are very thankful!! Your posts were persuasive and , well, humorous!! But you will be named as one of the major supporters of this forum.

[drstevej]

I know we will have you from time to time steve...thank you for you support for this new sub-forum and we are very thankful!! Your posts were persuasive and , well, humorous!! But you will be named as one of the major supporters of this forum.

I have been suggesting this for quite some time. I would welcome a traditional Catholic home too. I just think those with OBOB represent the spectrum of Catholics I know IRL.

A place to interact seems consistent with CF's past and present rhetoric. BWAP and a few others I will not name know this was not a new position for me.

I do enjoy discussion and even some good debate will all of the spectrum of those who attend Catholic Churches.

Frankly I enjoy OBOB more than many there enjoy me. And on other sites I have lots of trads who are good friends despite our hammer and tong debates.

So use this area well. Find a reason for being and a team to help you keep on track.

And I'll drop in from time to time just to see if I have been forgotten.

Shalom

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

I promise not to debate too much.
And so you know just what breed of wolf I am, I'm a Lutheran--bane to Catholics everywhere. :P
So, do I have to go find a silver bullet... :P

[CrusaderKing]

I am one of those "bad Catholics"...but Catholic nonetheless.:)

I'm a bad Catholic too. I wouldn't need confession at least once a week if I weren't.

[PetertheRock]

What has changed in the Church?
The Latin Mass is becoming more widely available!! :)

[JasonV]

If I might say, personally speaking, I think the TLM is a very powerful spiritual tool that has been dormant for too long.

[Protinus]

There is nothing wrong with TLM, dormant or not...howwever, it separates the worshipers from the Eucharist...that can not hold...it must be delivered to "the masses" in local language.

[JasonV]

I'm certainly in favor of the vernacular my friend. I'm advocating the ritual, not the language used.

[Domenico]

Latin is a powerful language. I wouldnt have spent years learning it if I didnt believe it to be important.

On the wolf thing... can I be Grey Brother?

[Rochir]

Booh!

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Booh!
/me has heart attack and dies. :P

[Rochir]

/me has heart attack and dies. :P

*immediately gives you mouth-to-mouth*:sorry:

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

*immediately gives you mouth-to-mouth*:sorry:
Keep your unwashed dolphin lips offa me! :P

[Rochir]

Keep your unwashed dolphin lips offa me! :P

Dolphins are very tidy and clean critters ... be thankful it was ME who gave you mouth to mouth and not Rupert himself!:angel:

[Benedicta00]

I'm glad you identify my pain but I am empowered to change tradition, as a lay person...I offer it up every day...my dissent ; then I derive strength, that I am able to satisfy change in my Church before Him. That carries me.
No one is empowered to change what Christ taught.

[Benedicta00]

I'm just a gal struggling to be holy...
obedience and submission is part of holiness.

[WarriorAngel]

I'm glad you identify my pain but I am empowered to change tradition, as a lay person...I offer it up every day...my dissent ; then I derive strength, that I am able to satisfy change in my Church before Him. That carries me.

Protius, you, like any before will not result in change.
Tertullian, Origen, Luther and many others prior to you who tried to wrought change were removed.
The Church hasnt changed on her Tradition for 2000 years, and she will not.

If the vines will bear grapes and other vines will not, then they cut off the vines that will not.

The vine will grow again offshoots that will bear fruit. And the vines that were removed will be tossed away.

This is actually a method used to ensure more vines to actually produce fruit in greater numbers.

Just saying....

[Rochir]

Just saying....

Vatican II, the theology of liberation ... also just saying ;)

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Vatican II, the theology of liberation ... also just saying ;)
Have you read the documents of Vatican II?

Just curious, I know I haven't read most of them...

[JasonV]

No one is empowered to change what Christ taught.

And unfortunately for us, we have so very little of what He actually said. :(

Protius, you, like any before will not result in change.
Tertullian, Origen, Luther and many others prior to you who tried to wrought change were removed.

Are you suggesting that Vatican I and II were not the result of people like M. Luther, Calvin, Knox, or even our own Protius? I would suggest that all Church counsels are the result of church-wide struggle and an attempt at reconciliation and healing.

The Church hasnt changed on her Tradition for 2000 years, and she will not.

I do believe that history shows otherwise.

[Benedicta00]

And unfortunately for us, we have so very little of what He actually said. :(


I'm so not interested in stating a debate but... what??

:doh:

[JasonV]

I'm so not interested in stating a debate but... what??

:doh:

Well I'm talking about those texts which purport to be the actual words of Christ while in his mortal ministry.

Even if you take into account various pseudopigraphal and apocryphal texts (even the Gnostic ones), we still don't have very much. Everything we have could have been spoken in a few days, compared with all he may have said that was never written down!

[Benedicta00]

Well I'm talking about those texts which purport to be the actual words of Christ while in his mortal ministry.

Even if you take into account various pseudopigraphal and apocryphal texts (even the Gnostic ones), we still don't have very much. Everything we have could have been spoken in a few days, compared with all he may have said that was never written down!
and you call yourself an apostolic tradition Christian because___?

[JasonV]

....because my church holds valid Apostolic Succession.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Benedicta00]

....because my church holds valid Apostolic Succession.
and what does that mean to you?

[JasonV]

It means that I belong to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It means that my Bishop holds the same authority as any other Bishop in the world.

Again, why the question?

[Benedicta00]

It means that I belong to the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It means that my Bishop holds the same authority as any other Bishop in the world.

Again, why the question?
what does apostolic teaching aka, tradition mean to you?

[WarriorAngel]

And unfortunately for us, we have so very little of what He actually said. :(



Are you suggesting that Vatican I and II were not the result of people like M. Luther, Calvin, Knox, or even our own Protius? I would suggest that all Church counsels are the result of church-wide struggle and an attempt at reconciliation and healing.



I do believe that history shows otherwise.

Vatican l and ll did not come during the 1500-1600 AD...
reform.

SO I dont see how you are equating the two.

Vat l and ll might probably be misunderstood by you.
Just saying...

[JasonV]

what does apostolic teaching aka, tradition mean to you?

What does it mean to you?

[JasonV]

Vatican l and ll did not come during the 1500-1600 AD...
reform.

SO I dont see how you are equating the two.

I don't believe either council would have been called were it not for the Reformation.

[WarriorAngel]

VATICAN l and ll allowed for the Bishops to allow the Mass in vernicular languages.

That is not a change of theology.
I just wanted to demonstarte the vast difference.

[WarriorAngel]

I don't believe either council would have been called were it not for the Reformation.



I think you are referring to Trent.

However; Trent did not change theology either.
It defined the theology against those who proposed to change it, yet again.

The only 'change' you might feel is that abuses of the indulgences ended...but indulgences are still present in the Church today.
SO they were not removed.... but were modified to disallow abuse.

Furthermore, JPll already made a decree that women will never be ordained as priests.

This has been decreed and therefore it shall not be changed.
Change cannot usurp Tradition. Popes cannot change Tradition, and the laity will not change Tradition.

[JasonV]

VATICAN l and ll allowed for the Bishops to allow the Mass in vernicular languages.

That is not a change of theology.
I just wanted to demonstarte the vast difference.

I rather think that Vatican I's "Papal Infallibility" was a major shift in theology. I also believe it was to prevent anyone (read that: Protestants, Liberal Catholics) from having the audacity to question HH on any matter whatsoever.

I'm sure that some of our RC theology buffs here can add more to this discussion than I can.

[JasonV]

Furthermore, JPll already made a decree that women will never be ordained as priests.

This has been decreed and therefore it shall not be changed.

Well Papal decree's have been changed and ignored before...so I suppose we could see the same here.

Change cannot usurp Tradition. Popes cannot change Tradition, and the laity will not change Tradition.

No? So it's just "evolution" then? Or shall we call it "clarification"?

[Loki]

There was also this thing in history called "the counter-reformation" that coincided nicely with the reformation. Hmmm....

[Benedicta00]

What does it mean to you?
that what was handed down to us from the apostles is what was handed down to us and we can not change (because we have no authority to) or do away with teachings that so happen to go against what we personally wish was true.

[JasonV]

that what was handed down to us from the apostles is what was handed down to us and we can not change (because we have no authority to) or do away with teachings that so happen to go against what we personally wish was true.

That's cool. :)

[Benedicta00]

That's cool. :)
so if you say it's cool then my original point stands, the Church has no power to change all the stuff Prot is hoping it does.

And before you say it, "He who hears you hears me, and he who hears me, hears the one who sent me..." The apostolic faith (what the 12 taught) is what Christ taught., The successors in union with the pope ALONE has the authority to speak on matters of faith and morals. Dissenting, schismatic and disobedient bishops do not.

We can not depart from the one true apostolic faith and try to change her. Staying and not technically departing from her but departing from the magisterial teachings is a departure. You are just telling yourself your not.

That is all I really have to say about that. I bid you a farewell because I do not want to disrespect the house rules by getting into it with anyone.

[JasonV]

so if you say it's cool then my original point stands, the Church has no power to change all the stuff Prot is hoping it does.

FYI...by "cool" I meant "cool for you".

And before you say it, "He who hears you hears me, and he who hears me, hears the one who sent me..." The apostolic faith (what the 12 taught) is what Christ taught., The successors in union with the pope ALONE has the authority to speak on matters of faith and morals. Dissenting, schismatic and disobedient bishops do not.

As I am under a completely different jurisdiction than you and everyone else here, I think they should speak with you about this.

As for me, I find that position incompatible with the actual teachings of the Apostles, and the Apostolic Fathers.

Because I am in a different boat than most here, I leave it to them to discuss and reason with you.

[longhair75]

Good evening friends,

i am not much of a wolf, maybe more of a tourist, but I think this will be a very interesting forum so read.

Just for the record: I was an altar boy during the time the changes resulting from Vatican II were being implemented. I was of the last group of servers that learned the Latin Mass responses. I was part of the team to train the first group of servers to learn the responses in English.

The visible changes brought about by Vatican II were huge.

[D'Ann]

Just as the OBOB'ers predicted, the wolves are here. Or at least I am. Just wanted to say 'hi' and mark the shiny new forum.

:wave:


First of all, welcome. HUGS It's wonderful to see you here.

Secondly, when I wrote that the wolves have been unleashed, I wasn't talking about any fellow Christians.

I was talking about the non-Christians who will seek to draw Christians away from Christ. It is and will continue to be open season on the Christians, but I hope and pray that I'm wrong.

I'm deeply sorry if my comment in that other thread offended you or anyone, but I felt at the time, it was the right thing to post.

God's Peace,

Debbie

[Loki]

I was talking about the non-Christians who will seek to draw Christians away from Christ. It is and will continue to be open season on the Christians, but I hope and pray that I'm wrong.


Because allowing people who are gently testing the waters to have access to other Christians would be faith-destroying... It's attitudes like this that've kept me away from these boards.

[D'Ann]

Loki,

I'm not talking about those who are seeking and trying to figure out their spirituality. I'm talking about people who purposely will reach out to the vulnerable and fragile and unsure seekers and/or struggling Christians and sincerely do their best to draw them away from Christ. I would never turn my back on you or any sincere seeker. I'm sorry if you don't understand my heart and I'm sorry that you are misunderstanding my words. I love it that the Congregational forums are open to non-Christians. But we need to have some safety guidelines so that those who are struggling and/or seeking will not be pulled away.

Not all of us want to debate, not all of us are lobbyists, politicians, activists or crusaders. WE love all people and want to share and fellowship with anyone who would like to... they are not the issue. The issue is that the young ones in Christ and those who are looking for answers can and will be persuaded away from Christ.

That is my opinon and it's okay if you don't agree. Unfortunately, the evidence is already showing itself in various forums.

I pray the best for you. :hug:

[Loki]

I'm talking about people who purposely will reach out to the vulnerable and fragile and unsure seekers and/or struggling Christians and sincerely do their best to draw them away from Christ. To the best of my understanding, proselytizing for other faiths, or lack thereof, is still verboten, so even if those pesky atheists come around, they can still be moderated. All the exclusion does is keep out those who are the border, and many of us suffered from that.

[BelindaP]

It's OK, D'Ann. I'm not offended, and I understand why you posted what you did. I do think it was a bit premature, but we'll need to wait and see for sure. I think that the fact that Erwin relaxed his mandate on opening the Congregational fora will help them to remain the safe-havens that the congregations need. And I'm very pleased that OBOB didn't jump on the bandwagon of keeping out everyone with the wrong icon. That is a testament to the fine folks that reside there, that they were able to do that even while fearing their own 'wolf invasion'.

I do hope to see your around some in the future. *Hugs* to you and Newman99.

[pdudgeon]

:wave: just dropping by to wish everyone well in your new home.:thumbsup: :hug:

[WarriorAngel]

I rather think that Vatican I's "Papal Infallibility" was a major shift in theology. I also believe it was to prevent anyone (read that: Protestants, Liberal Catholics) from having the audacity to question HH on any matter whatsoever.

I'm sure that some of our RC theology buffs here can add more to this discussion than I can.

It was not a shift whatsoever.
UNDERSTANDING what Infallibility is and is not would help you immensely.

People see something and do not enquire what it means and will project many ideas for themselves.

The Church itself is always going to be infallible.
'The gates of hell shall not prevail...'
BUT the chair of Peter was given a certain amount of authority to keep it correct.

'I shall give you the keys to Heaven....AND
Whatsoever you shall hold bound shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever you hold loosed shall be loosed in Heaven...'

SO...whatever Peter says will be so in Heaven...because he has the keys.

How can we disagree with Christ, the keys and the authority of Peter?
And henceforth his successors?

You would have to remove that whole section from Matthew to remove the role and authority of Peter.

Infallibly defining the doctrines...infallible decreeing the teachings. Defining them against heresies...

Having the last word, and giving fullness to the word, is his duty....when he holds the keys, because the Holy Spirit would not ever allow otherwise....lest the gates of hell would prevail, making Christ a liar.

Only when the Pope speaks in ex cathedra [defining the teachings] and adhering to Tradition does he speak infallibly.

AND by Christ's own admission, he is infallible.

He cannot teach error.
Christ gave His word, and His back up that it would also be in Heaven.... and His Holy Spirit for in case we should think otherwise could ever happen.


To the best of my understanding, proselytizing for other faiths, or lack thereof, is still verboten, so even if those pesky atheists come around, they can still be moderated. All the exclusion does is keep out those who are the border, and many of us suffered from that.

OBOB wants an open area for genuine seekers....
The problems we have faced and may face are those who do not seek to discuss with us and ask questions....but when do have folks coming and telling us we are wrong for points...
A-Z. :sigh:

That is when ppl are intentionally being attacked and how some will be harmed who are weak.

[Rochir]

I'm talking about people who purposely will reach out to the vulnerable and fragile and unsure seekers and/or struggling Christians and sincerely do their best to draw them away from Christ.

And what do Christians do who aggressively proselyte (sp) and try to draw people away from their well-thought out believes and into a specific church or denomination?

How is that different from what you fear happening?

And - has, what you fear really happened so far? Have you seen evidence?:scratch:

[boughtwithaprice]

And what do Christians do who aggressively proselyte (sp) and try to draw people away from their well-thought out believes and into a specific church or denomination?

How is that different from what you fear happening?

And - has, what you fear really happened so far? Have you seen evidence?:scratch:


The fear for the weak is often the excuse that the strong use for using political or military or any other kind of power, as if they are trying to protect us. But those that use that excuse, fail to understand the promise that Christ Himself has given us.

John 10

14. "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15. even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16. "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
17. "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
18. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
19. A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
20. Many of them were saying, "He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?"
21. Others were saying, "These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?"
22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25. Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


We have nothing to fear from heretics leading souls to hell, as if God is powerless to stop them and needs human force to protect His sheep for Him.

[drstevej]

BWAP, please explain Paul's warning in Acts 20:28-30 if there is not danger.

[JasonV]

It was not a shift whatsoever.
UNDERSTANDING what Infallibility is and is not would help you immensely.

I don't appreciate you assuming I don't understand what Roman Catholic theologians have taught concerning the doctrine of infallibility. I'm very well aware of ex-cathedra, and all that implies. I simply believe that history bears out that Popes have taught heretical doctrines, that there is no clear way to determine except by hindsight whether something is being taught ex-cathedra, and that the very notion that the See of Peter cannot err in matters of faith and morals is little more than a fanciful dream.

I've only read a few books on the matter, specifically Butler's "Jesus, Peter and the Keys," and De Rosa's "Vicars of Christ". One is pro, one is con. I've made my decision based mostly on those two texts.

I believe the Church will prevail, but that does not guarantee any specific See, even St. Peter's.

[boughtwithaprice]

BWAP, please explain Paul's warning in Acts 20:28-30 if there is not danger.

28. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
32. "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


This warning merely tells us that there will be people that try to pervert the Gospel and lead disciples after them, which is true from a review of history. It does not; however, tells us how to deal with heretics. It does not tell us to kill the heretics lest they lead others to hell. It does tell us that we are commended to God and the word of His grace.
This tells me that we lift up the Word of God, who is able to draw all men unto Himself, and be on the lookout, as there will be some that attempt to pervert that message. I believe that the message is better displayed through the light of discussion and truth and joy in the Lord, rather than the darkness of fear and suppression. Do we really take away from this warning, "wolves are coming in, lets kill them?" I don't see it, do you?

[Rochir]

It was not a shift whatsoever.
UNDERSTANDING what Infallibility is and is not would help you immensely.



I hope you understand that Vatican I and the resolutions reached tehrein were HIGHLY political in nature and that MANY council members left because they did not agree with what Pius IX proposed!

There are many views on Coulcils, not only one! And if others understand the outcome of councils differently than you do, that is their perogative!

We understand things in different ways. Doesn't mean only your way of understanding is correct, or ours!

I would call for respecting each other's views!:)

[Protinus]

It was not a shift whatsoever.
UNDERSTANDING what Infallibility is and is not would help you immensely.

perhaps your understanding of CHARITY would help you immensely.

So give us the problems in perception that even well studied Catholics might have with what is "infallibly proposed" versus, and not insignificantly, what is "infallibly taught" by the teaching office.

Regarding definitive doctrine, there have been assertions that these these teachings , according to the charism of infallibility must be taught "infallibly". There are significant disagreements regarding the scope of definitive doctrine (perhaps your implied "understanding" of infallibility will help here). JPII, in Ad tuendam fidem mandated additions to the Code of Canon Law to preserve them for "sacred preservation". This has created confusion and there are a lot of theologians that are concerned that JPIII may have gone too far in establishing infallibility to these broader teachings, concerned that definitive doctrine is sufficiently malleable.

Do not cast "I have the knowledge" aspersions here in this forum. We are discussing here...you may pronounce elsewhere.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

I had a big long thought out post written out on the request topic but by the time I got ready to send it the topic had been closed and I lost the post. I guess God didn't want me to post it.

I will just hope that the liberals with their schismatic views stay here and leave us with the OBOB.
wow! that stung a bit.

[kiwimac]

Thought I'd pop in too. We Old Catholics are the original wolves, although these days we are more like a large, friendly dog. :D

[Protinus]

Thought I'd pop in too. We Old Catholics are the original wolves, although these days we are more like a large, friendly dog. :D

you are much loved and solicited as we are trying language in the wiki that will protect and uphold Old Catholics...regardless of your Canis Lupus heritage a century ago.

[drstevej]

I will just hope that the liberals with their schismatic views stay here and leave us with the OBOB.

Do unto others PtR.

[Protinus]

wow! that stung a bit.

We must expect these reactions...there are views that are perceived as hurtful to others....now the hurting from us is revealed and it still is not acceptable.:doh:

[kiwimac]

Part of the problem is that following the church 'line' is seen as obedience to God, it is not, nor has it ever been.

[kiwimac]

you are much loved and solicited as we are trying language in the wiki that will protect and uphold Old Catholics...regardless of your Canis Lupus heritage a century ago.

Thanks for the welcome.

Fr. Ray!

[Protinus]

Part of the problem is that following the church 'line' is seen as obedience to God, it is not, nor has it ever been.

"Christ..I am yours...save me"

[Loki]

A catholic need not leave their brain at the door. Or the holy water font, or whatever.

[WarriorAngel]

I hope you understand that Vatican I and the resolutions reached tehrein were HIGHLY political in nature and that MANY council members left because they did not agree with what Pius IX proposed!

There are many views on Coulcils, not only one! And if others understand the outcome of councils differently than you do, that is their perogative!

We understand things in different ways. Doesn't mean only your way of understanding is correct, or ours!

I would call for respecting each other's views!:)

Vatican Reads (http://www.newadvent.org/etc/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=vatican+councils&cof=FORID%3A9#914)

[Protinus]

Vatican Reads (http://www.newadvent.org/etc/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=vatican+councils&cof=FORID%3A9#914)


Could you guide us...which of your google searches is most relevant?

[JasonV]

Warrior,

I too would appreciate a clearer explanation of your understanding here. :)

[kimber1]

is this the OBOB fellowship thread? :wave: to all the OBOB'ers.