Smaller, independant, communions, thoughts?

[Simon_Templar]

There are a number of smaller communions around, such as the Charismatic Episcopal Church, the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, the Communion of Christ the Redeemer, etc etc.

Some of them have Succession through the Apostolic Church of Brazil, some might not have a valid succession, I'm not sure on all of them.

Anyway, I'm not looking for comment on individual ones per say, but more people's reaction to the movement which has spawned some of these groups. Often referred to as the Convergence movement, it is largely a movement of charismatic and evangelical protestants who are rediscovering the traditional roots of the church.

For various reasons many of them are not ready to jump into the Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican churches and so they have formed their own groups and sought out succession etc.

what do you think??

[Albion]

There are a number of smaller communions around, such as the Charismatic Episcopal Church, the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, the Communion of Christ the Redeemer, etc etc.

Some of them have Succession through the Apostolic Church of Brazil, some might not have a valid succession, I'm not sure on all of them.

Anyway, I'm not looking for comment on individual ones per say, but more people's reaction to the movement which has spawned some of these groups. Often referred to as the Convergence movement, it is largely a movement of charismatic and evangelical protestants who are rediscovering the traditional roots of the church.

For various reasons many of them are not ready to jump into the Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican churches and so they have formed their own groups and sought out succession etc.

what do you think??

You have to account for them when making up rules around here. From what we've seen argued most strenuously here, there would be no impediment to them since they do have bishops who can trace their consecrations back through various lines of Catholics in an unbroken line to the Apostles. I warned earlier that if having the line is the benchmark, you're not only calling EO, RC, etc. Apostolic, you're also calling some very splinter groups--far more out in left field than the ones you named above--similarly Apostolic.

[Simon_Templar]

You have to account for them when making up rules around here. From what we've seen argued most strenuously here, there would be no impediment to them since they do have bishops who can trace their consecrations back through various lines of Catholics in an unbroken line to the Apostles. I warned earlier that if having the line is the benchmark, you're not only calling EO, RC, etc. Apostolic, you're also calling some very splinter groups--far more out in left field than the ones you named above--similarly Apostolic.
I understand your point.

however, my purpose here is not to discuss who is allowed in the forum. I'm more interested in people's general response and opinion on these groups. Do you think they are valid churches? Do you think they are doing something worth while? do you think they are loonies :), whatever.

Personally I'm very interested by this movement. I would probably have joined it in some fashion but for two problems. None of them have a presense in my area. And the fact that they do seem to have an air of splinteriness about them, and together with that, some instability.

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts and opinions

[Albion]

I understand your point.

however, my purpose here is not to discuss who is allowed in the forum. I'm more interested in people's general response and opinion on these groups. Do you think they are valid churches? Do you think they are doing something worth while? do you think they are loonies :), whatever.

Personally I'm very interested by this movement. I would probably have joined it in some fashion but for two problems. None of them have a presense in my area. And the fact that they do seem to have an air of splinteriness about them, and together with that, some instability.

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts and opinions

OK, I Know the first two that you mentioned. The Charismatic Episcopal Church is considered by most to be quite reputable and stable. It follows traditional Episcopal thought and practice closely except that it incorporates a number of charismatic expressions into the Mass, such as religious dance, extemporaneous testifying, and the usual charismatic postures and gestures. Many Anglicans feel uncomfortable during their services, but the theology is otherwise conservative. Its orders are from the Brazilian line of former Roman Catholics and also from Continuing Anglicans. Quite a few of its clergy are former TEC.

The Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches is a bit of a different matter. It was formed by some Continuers plus a number of Pentecostals who had no liturgical background. They have a series of required assents to various doctrinal positions including one that is plainly Pentecostal. Unlike the CEC, women are admitted to the priesthood and are eligible for the episcopate in principle. The parishes continually come and go and the communion itself is constantly redefining itself. Also unlike the CEC, which tends to be High Church and Catholic in thought, the CEEC varies widely but appears to be more Protestant in orientation.

No one I know puts either into the "Loonies" category and, as a matter of fact, both have been very well received by conservative factions and organizations of of TEC.

[a_ntv]

There are a number of smaller communions around, such as the Charismatic Episcopal Church, the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, the Communion of Christ the Redeemer, etc etc.

Some of them have Succession through the Apostolic Church of Brazil, some might not have a valid succession, I'm not sure on all of them.

Anyway, I'm not looking for comment on individual ones per say, but more people's reaction to the movement which has spawned some of these groups. Often referred to as the Convergence movement, it is largely a movement of charismatic and evangelical protestants who are rediscovering the traditional roots of the church.

For various reasons many of them are not ready to jump into the Orthodox, Catholic, or Anglican churches and so they have formed their own groups and sought out succession etc.

what do you think??

It depends form their origin.

If these Churches are born as divisions of from the main body, as the CC or the EO: that is sad, because to increase the disunion is negative
(the standard case is a catholic priest that wants to marry without leaving the 'job': he separes from the Church and get somehow a valid bishop ordination: that is a sin and the excomunication is immediatly given due to the illegal bishop ordination)

If these Churches are born from protestants who are rediscovering the traditional roots of the church: that is very positive.



The standard Catholic doctrine has three parameters to consider:

- the validity of the bishop ordination: if there is a valid bishop ordination (=true intention to do what the Church does, right form and a valid bishop celebrating), the sacraments given by this bishop are valid

- the licity (=legal in the Church law): the sacraments given by these bishops, even if valid, are un-licit.
We consider that only the CC and the Orthodox Churches can give licit sacraments (I dont know about Anglicans).
We believe that a former CC/EO/OO who celebrate un-licit even if valid sacraments, with the full will to do something against the CC/EO/OO law, and with the full knowledge of it, is making a heavy sin (up to the excomunication).

- the profitability: we believe that the former CC/EO/OO who receives the valid but un-licit sacraments (with the full will to do something against the CC/EO/OO law, and with the full knowledge of it), is in state of sin (up to the excomunication) and he doesNOT receive the fruits of these sacraments till he reconciliates with the CC/EO/OO Church

The definition of "former CC/EO/OO" is quite extensive, and it is obviously at each one conscience.

[Mary of Bethany]

These "anglican" type groups are much like the Evangelical Orthodox Church that was formed in the 1980s by former Campus Crusade leaders who were looking to re-invent :) the early church.

Of course, the great majority of them were received en masse into the Orthodox Church through the Antiochians. Some CEC and other "anglican" type parishes have been brought into the EO also, and I'm sure into the other historic churches.

I think it's great that these folks are looking for something that they seem to know intuitively is missing from their protestant churches. But as protestants, they have no qualms in just forming their own new denominations that suit their purposes. I think it takes a real change of mind and heart regarding what the Church *is* for them to feel the need to no longer be apart from it.

Mary

P.S. I put "anglican" in parentheses because I don't know if those in the Anglican Communion really consider these groups to be Anglican, but the groups seem to usually adopt some form of Anglican worship.

[Aymn27]

These "anglican" type groups are much like the Evangelical Orthodox Church that was formed in the 1980s by former Campus Crusade leaders who were looking to re-invent :) the early church.

Of course, the great majority of them were received en masse into the Orthodox Church through the Antiochians. Some CEC and other "anglican" type parishes have been brought into the EO also, and I'm sure into the other historic churches.

I think it's great that these folks are looking for something that they seem to know intuitively is missing from their protestant churches. But as protestants, they have no qualms in just forming their own new denominations that suit their purposes. I think it takes a real change of mind and heart regarding what the Church *is* for them to feel the need to no longer be apart from it.

Mary

P.S. I put "anglican" in parentheses because I don't know if those in the Anglican Communion really consider these groups to be Anglican, but the groups seem to usually adopt some form of Anglican worship.
I believe you are correct - most have gone EO, a large number have gone Roman - but the Papacy, purgatory as a "place", and Marian dogma are huge hurdles to jump..as a former RC it is these three point that eventually lead me to considering the EO, and later Anglican Churches. As a charismatic christian, the EO has little to offer and (I'm sure you've heard this before) they tend to be so "culturally clique-ish". I, like Simon, am a big fan of the convergence churches - I think a weakness for them, though, is that some bishops are more into "power" than pastoring....I think this movement will either 1) eventually dwindle out into nothing or 2) form some sort of intercommunion (like the Anglican Communion) and become attached to other orthodox believing Anglicans because of their evangelical zeal and charimatic worship. I would love to see the later happen - and they become "absorbed" into the new, developing Anglicansim...

[RadixLecti]

I like the CEC and Convergence ecclesiology in general.

I was talking to a CEC priest a few months ago, and he mentioned that right now the CEC is very unstable. Right now several congregations have become Western Orthodox parishes. Also, I heard the CEC tried to join the RCC a few years ago but for some reason it didn't work out.

[WarriorAngel]

I think the reason would be the unorthodox issues the RC will not enjoin to.
Gay married priests and laity, and women ordinations.

[Albion]

I think the reason would be the unorthodox issues the RC will not enjoin to.
Gay married priests and laity, and women ordinations.

No, that would NOT likely be the reason since the CEC does not approve of gay sex, gay clergy or women priests. Married clergy, of course, are already allowed in the RCC and its Latin Rite, so that wouldn't be an insurmountable problem either.

I had heard that the CEC has had its difficulties lately with some clergy seeking new affiliiations but I had the idea that most of that had been patched up. Maybe not.

[Colabomb]

Not all Anglicans Believe alike sister.

For example I and the vast majority of Anglicans agree with you that homosexuality is a sin. It is simply the loud minority that get all the attention.

[Wigglesworth]

Churches with one or two bishops celebrating mass in a garage or the dining room of their home should be absorbed into larger, orthodox, catholic communions.

:crossrc:

[Simon_Templar]

The CEC, unfortunately went through a very rough time lately. They lost significant amounts of both clergy and laity. Through out the history of the convergence movement it has not been uncommon for those who come in from evangelical protestantism to eventually end up joining either the EO or the RC.

With the CEC there was recently a big problem over the presiding bishop. Without taking sides, many of the bishops and layity felt that he went off the deep end on a few issues and then refused to allow any one to question him and refused to address the concerns of the bishops etc (one of the issues involved was youth consuming alcoholic beverages at church sponsored youth events with the apparent approval of leaders).

In any case, a number of clergy left for other groups, some are still unaffiliated. Several bishops have joined together to form a group called The Communion of Christ the Redeemer (if memory serves). I believe they have some sort of agreement with the Brazillian church.

[Albion]

In any case, a number of clergy left for other groups, some are still unaffiliated. Several bishops have joined together to form a group called The Communion of Christ the Redeemer (if memory serves). I believe they have some sort of agreement with the Brazillian church.

There's also the Province of Christ the Good Shepherd, which separated from the CEEC. You might be interested in looking them up.

[Aymn27]

I think the reason would be the unorthodox issues the RC will not enjoin to.
Gay married priests and laity, and women ordinations.
The CEC would have none of these..married priests yes - homosexuals, women - no...

It was Rome who rebuffed them - they were seeking a "deal" much like the TAC is seeking - but Rome was quick to squelch any idea of an outside province coming in with married priests, a charismatic liturgy, etc...as usual - it was "become one of us" or forget it - which means - no married priests, etc...

[Aymn27]

There's also the Province of Christ the Good Shepherd, which separated from the CEEC. You might be interested in looking them up.
they are nice bunch..I'm a friend of the Company of Jesus - a bendectine/franciscan third order..they do, however, ordain females to the priesthood (but not bishop)...I'm waiting for the Communion of Christ the Redeemer to take shape...

[Mary of Bethany]

I think the reason would be the unorthodox issues the RC will not enjoin to.
Gay married priests and laity, and women ordinations.

The Orthodox Church doesn't accept those things either, so that couldn't have been the problem. Besides, I thought the CEC were conservative in beliefs.

Mary