Some thoughts on the new sub-forum

[jeolmstead]

A marked difference I’ve noticed between those who seem to be in this camp and others is a sense that God doesn’t fit inside our heads.

He can’t be reduced to principles or bound to our understanding of “good”. Yes, God is good, but it is His definition of the word, not ours.

Personally, I am very comfortable with a God who is bigger then I could ever understand. There seems to be a sense among some of us that “It really isn’t about us” It is an honor to serve and it’s in the loosing of our lives that we find true life.

Some of us are very comfortable with the supernatural. But, we are also comfortable with the natural. And, we do not see the great schism between the two. After all, God is the Lord of both. We have found that it is not necessary for the two to be at odds with each other at all as long as we are submitted to Christ.

Some of us have come to the conclusion that all the faith we need is the faith to ask. We believe that this is the meaning of the mustard seed.

We believe that the bible is inspired and true. But, we recognize that ours (and other’s) understanding of it sometimes is not. We aspire to let the word define our doctrine as apposed to the other way around.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts on the matter.


John O.

[talitha]

beautiful, john

[FoundInGrace]

yes it is beautiful

[JAS4Yeshua]

Awesome. I agree! :)

[geetrue]

Personally, I am very comfortable with a God who is bigger than I could ever understand. There seems to be a sense among some of us that “It really isn’t about us” It is an honor to serve and it’s in the loosing of our lives that we find true life.

John O.

I thought I was all alone with these same thoughts till you said it too.

It's all about Jesus ...

Good train of thought John ... lets put some box cars together.

[zaksmummy]

:)

This is fantastic, finally people who speak my langauge.

I am happy to be here, does this mean that we here will be gracious to one another and not get bogged down in the "I''ve got more scriptures than you to back up my point of view" type attitudes that I've seen a lot of on this forum?

The other thing I find odd, see what you think maybe its just me. When I joined this forum last week I was asked to decided if I was premillenialist or postmillenialist. My question is this, does it really matter? Only God knows the appointed hour, so why spend so much time and effort and energy discussing it, when he isn't going to tell us anyway, aren't there more immediate issues that need dealing with rather than a big theological debate.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else out there?
I really hope so, would so hate to be alone.

Sorry, just ranting now will save the debates for another day.

Luv n hugs to all

Catrin xx:wave:

[JAS4Yeshua]

Some people thinks it might matter. I don't think so. That's just my opinion. ;)

[he4rty]

:)

This is fantastic, finally people who speak my langauge.

I am happy to be here, does this mean that we here will be gracious to one another and not get bogged down in the "I''ve got more scriptures than you to back up my point of view" type attitudes that I've seen a lot of on this forum?

The other thing I find odd, see what you think maybe its just me. When I joined this forum last week I was asked to decided if I was premillenialist or postmillenialist. My question is this, does it really matter? Only God knows the appointed hour, so why spend so much time and effort and energy discussing it, when he isn't going to tell us anyway, aren't there more immediate issues that need dealing with rather than a big theological debate.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else out there?
I really hope so, would so hate to be alone.

Sorry, just ranting now will save the debates for another day.

Luv n hugs to all

Catrin xx:wave:

For what its worth I didn't understand any of the questions asked or the words used, far too big, and still don't understand fully what all of them mean, even some of the theology forum names are bit :scratch:.

But God loves me thats all I need to know.

And Great post Jeol.

[habeas]

A marked difference I’ve noticed between those who seem to be in this camp and others is a sense that God doesn’t fit inside our heads.

He can’t be reduced to principles or bound to our understanding of “good”. Yes, God is good, but it is His definition of the word, not ours.

Personally, I am very comfortable with a God who is bigger then I could ever understand. There seems to be a sense among some of us that “It really isn’t about us” It is an honor to serve and it’s in the loosing of our lives that we find true life.

Some of us are very comfortable with the supernatural. But, we are also comfortable with the natural. And, we do not see the great schism between the two. After all, God is the Lord of both. We have found that it is not necessary for the two to be at odds with each other at all as long as we are submitted to Christ.

Some of us have come to the conclusion that all the faith we need is the faith to ask. We believe that this is the meaning of the mustard seed.

We believe that the bible is inspired and true. But, we recognize that ours (and other’s) understanding of it sometimes is not. We aspire to let the word define our doctrine as apposed to the other way around.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts on the matter.


John O.

:amen: I also think that there is this dynamic, or this question that causes friction in the body of Christ, and that is:

Is the purpose of our relationship with
God, that He will serve us, supplies us with all our needs, make us happy, or is our primary purpose to serve Him?

Unquestionably, He has promised us eternal life and even to meet our needs (the desires of our hearts, not the desires of our flesh) in this life, but what is the purpose of the relationship; what is to be our attitude toward God, our motivation, our posture?

I think some posters have inartfully raised this question in a manner that has been deemed offensive by some in the main forum, and I am not articulating it very well.

The main difference seems to be rooted in the answer to this question, it seems.

habeas

[jeolmstead]

:)

This is fantastic, finally people who speak my langauge.

I am happy to be here, does this mean that we here will be gracious to one another and not get bogged down in the "I''ve got more scriptures than you to back up my point of view" type attitudes that I've seen a lot of on this forum?

The other thing I find odd, see what you think maybe its just me. When I joined this forum last week I was asked to decided if I was premillenialist or postmillenialist. My question is this, does it really matter? Only God knows the appointed hour, so why spend so much time and effort and energy discussing it, when he isn't going to tell us anyway, aren't there more immediate issues that need dealing with rather than a big theological debate.

Does any of this make sense to anyone else out there?
I really hope so, would so hate to be alone.

Sorry, just ranting now will save the debates for another day.

Luv n hugs to all

Catrin xx:wave:
I’m always amazed at the time and effort placed on eschatology.

The truth is this:

Sometime in the next 50 years Jesus will come back, or I’ll go to him. This is a 100% certainty

So, I and everyone I know is certainly living “in the last days” If the world lasts another thousand years, what is that to me?

And,

If someone is cutting off your head, it really doesn’t matter if this is the great tribulation or not. (It is for you)

John O.

[jeolmstead]

:amen: I also think that there is this dynamic, or this question that causes friction in the body of Christ, and that is:

Is the purpose of our relationship with
God, that He will serve us, supplies us with all our needs, make us happy, or is our primary purpose to serve Him?

Unquestionably, He has promised us eternal life and even to meet our needs (the desires of our hearts, not the desires of our flesh) in this life, but what is the purpose of the relationship; what is to be our attitude toward God, our motivation, our posture?

I think some posters have inartfully raised this question in a manner that has been deemed offensive by some in the main forum, and I am not articulating it very well.

The main difference seems to be rooted in the answer to this question, it seems.

habeas
Yes...I agree, I think you expressd it very well.

I suppose it comes down to the question as to who created who?

And for whose pleasure?

I think we expect our creations to serve us…..

So it is with all we create …..

I guess when we create our own doctrine and theology it is just natural to expect the god we've created to serve us.

John O.

[Redheadedstepchild]

I guess when we create our own doctrine and theology it is just natural to expect the god we've created to serve us.



Hello!:doh:

[jeolmstead]

Hello!:doh:
Did I say something wrong?

[Redheadedstepchild]

Did I say something wrong?
Nope! It just hit home. ;)

[JAS4Yeshua]

I’m always amazed at the time and effort placed on eschatology.

The truth is this:

Sometime in the next 50 years Jesus will come back, or I’ll go to him. This is a 100% certainty

So, I and everyone I know is certainly living “in the last days” If the world lasts another thousand years, what is that to me?

And,

If someone is cutting off your head, it really doesn’t matter if this is the great tribulation or not. (It is for you)

John O.

Excellent point. :amen:

[habeas]

Yes...I agree, I think you expressd it very well.

I suppose it comes down to the question as to who created who?

And for whose pleasure?

I think we expect our creations to serve us…..

So it is with all we create …..

I guess when we create our own doctrine and theology it is just natural to expect the god we've created to serve us.

John O.

now, you've really hit the proverbial nail on the head! What an indictment you have made here.

[geetrue]

I guess when we create our own doctrine and theology it is just natural to expect the god we've created to serve us.

John O.

I created my own doctrine to argue with others that are always quoting doctrine, but I still serve God with it.

My doctrine is simply this, "Love one another, forgive one another, hold no grudges against one another"

[talitha]

[off-topic]
*tali looks furtively around for newsong and flyingsumo*
erm, gee, would you take a look at the thread entitled "NewSong's siggie"? Seems the siggie in question is actually yours and not hers.....
*tali tiptoes away quietly*
[/offtopic]

[LeadWorship]

:)

This is fantastic, finally people who speak my langauge.



Haha, I am starting to feel the same way Cat. :)

[jeolmstead]

now, you've really hit the proverbial nail on the head! What an indictment you have made here.
Indictment is a strong word. I’m not sure that was my intent. If it’s true I suppose I stand “indicted” with everyone else.

I think I recall some Old Testament scripture about when we have idols in our heart God will allow them to speak lies to us.

I’m sure that I have had my share. I think that recognizing the possibility is the first step in allowing God to put His finger on these things so I can repent and be healed.

The man who fails to recognize the possibility has no such opportunity.


Mine is the only heart I can steer, and then only with God’s wind in my sails


John O.

[JoyToTheWhirled]

Oh, I am so glad this sub-forum is here. When I became a Christian I was a charismatic, and gradually, over the years fell away from that because I just counldn't reconcile certain things with the belief, and I ended up a strict cessationist.

Now the Lord is really stirring up my heart again, but I felt I was stuck because I didn't hold to WoF stuff. I have one RL friend who is a charismatic, but not WoF, and I thought she was the only one!

So I'm very grateful for this forum, and I'm looking foward to getting to know everyone:wave:

[JAS4Yeshua]

Welcome, Joy. Good to have you here. :)

[jeolmstead]

Oh, I am so glad this sub-forum is here. When I became a Christian I was a charismatic, and gradually, over the years fell away from that because I just counldn't reconcile certain things with the belief, and I ended up a strict cessationist.

Now the Lord is really stirring up my heart again, but I felt I was stuck because I didn't hold to WoF stuff. I have one RL friend who is a charismatic, but not WoF, and I thought she was the only one!

So I'm very grateful for this forum, and I'm looking foward to getting to know everyone:wave:
Welcome Joy...Glad you are here......

John O.

[robbymac]

Oh, I am so glad this sub-forum is here. When I became a Christian I was a charismatic, and gradually, over the years fell away from that because I just counldn't reconcile certain things with the belief, and I ended up a strict cessationist.

Now the Lord is really stirring up my heart again, but I felt I was stuck because I didn't hold to WoF stuff. I have one RL friend who is a charismatic, but not WoF, and I thought she was the only one!

So I'm very grateful for this forum, and I'm looking foward to getting to know everyone:wave:

Welcome! Love your online "handle", by the way! :liturgy:

[synger]

Welcome, Joy!! There are more of us "closet charismatics" out there than most people realize. When I speak of the things of the Spirit, even to some of the most staid Lutherans I know, they begin nodding and smiling... Eventually, we'll all understand better.

[9-iron]

Best Thread I've read on here in about 2 years......:thumbsup:

[jeolmstead]

bump

[Simon_Templar]

Lots of great thoughts in this thread.

One thing I'm amazed by is how people would seemingly rather make God smaller, than face up to the fact that we just don't understand everything.

I don't understand how people can prefer to say, that God doesn't have control over the situation, or he is literally unable to do something about our circumstance for whatever reason, than to simple admit that God is in control and I don't understand why things happened they way they did.

I have to assume that a lot of it simply comes back to people having to feel like they are in control. It seems odd, but is apparently true that people would rather believe "I controled the situation and failed in some way thus God couldn't help me" rather than think "God is in control despite me, and I don't know why this happened."

I do think that one of the particular failings of the whole charismatic movement right now is that of the Church of Laodicea in revelation. We think that lukewarm refers to commitment and fervor, so we would never apply it to ourselves... but really the problem of laodicea was that they had started making all their decisions about their beliefs and their faith themselves, rather than agreeing with God.

It is often thought that in this passage hot refers to onfire, and cold to the lost, and the lukewarm are those who claim to be christian but really don't have any fervor or commitment. The truth is that the Hot and Cold are both refering to water near the city of Laodicea, both the hot and the cold served useful refreshing purposes, but the lukewarm water had no useful purpose and didn't refresh anyone.

So it is with a Church that is not agreed with God, but rather deciding everything for themselves.

[jeolmstead]

I know a man who has said that it is possible to completely understand all the things of God if you break things down to their simplest components.

He has also implied to me that he has arrived at that point in his life.

I’ve noticed that all of the things he relates to God are related through human understanding. His god fits neatly inside his own head

So, God’s goodness can only fit into an earthly understanding of “goodness”

God would never use sickness because an earthly father would be bad to do so.

Man becomes the measuring stick for God.

So, all the scripture where the bible says God sent plague, or destruction, or death is either ignored, misinterpreted, or attributed to a 3rd party agent (the devil) who somehow accomplishes the will of God for Him but leaves His hands clean.


I don’t get it

John O.

[NorrinRadd]

...
I don’t get it



Me neither.

Elsewhere, I see a lot of "raging" from "heathens" (in the words of the Psalmists), especially from some who formerly were (or at least professed to be) believers. They insist -- viciously and vehemently -- that any deity that would do the things ascribed in Scripture to God would be a monster.

I expect to see that sort of thing from unbelievers.

But it baffles me when believers apparently agree with them.

[KenBrauckmann]

I’m always amazed at the time and effort placed on eschatology.

The truth is this:

Sometime in the next 50 years Jesus will come back, or I’ll go to him. This is a 100% certainty

So, I and everyone I know is certainly living “in the last days” If the world lasts another thousand years, what is that to me?

And,

If someone is cutting off your head, it really doesn’t matter if this is the great tribulation or not. (It is for you)

John O.
(Just to mess with you I should pray the God grants you 80 more years, my friend, not 50!! :D )

:wave:

Seriously, nice to see you!

Ken

[KenBrauckmann]

And more ONTopic....

I remember reading AW Tozer's "Knowledge of the Holy" - that handled the 'bigness' of God very well! :thumbsup: After that book there was no question about WHO is in Control!

[Andry]

Oh, I am so glad this sub-forum is here. When I became a Christian I was a charismatic, and gradually, over the years fell away from that because I just counldn't reconcile certain things with the belief, and I ended up a strict cessationist.

Now the Lord is really stirring up my heart again, but I felt I was stuck because I didn't hold to WoF stuff. I have one RL friend who is a charismatic, but not WoF, and I thought she was the only one!

So I'm very grateful for this forum, and I'm looking foward to getting to know everyone:wave:
Welcome, Joy. I think, like J.O., this sub-forum is becoming more appealing to me too than the main forum. I'm glad to hear that the Lord is stirring things up again with you. In having pondered your post a bit, my thought are.....

Jesus could not heal the sick. Or raise the dead, deliver the tormented, or any other miracle. To believe otherwise is to ignore what He said about Himself (and more importantly, to miss the purpose of His self-imposed restriction to live as a man), which is, "The Son can do nothing." Nothing means NOTHING. He had NO supernatural abilities whatsoever. While is He is 100% God, He chose to live with the same limitations that man would face; he made that point over and over again.

However, he performed miracles, signs, and wonders as a man in right relationship to God....not as God. Because if he performed miracles because He was God, then they would be unattainable for us. But if He did them as a man, then we are responsible to pursue His lifestyle.

And recapturing this simple truth changes everything, and makes possible the full restoration of the ministry of Jesus in His Church (that'd be us).

So what were the distinctions of His humanity?

1. He had no sin to separate Him from the Father.
2. And He was completely dependent on the power of the Holy Spirit working through Him.

What are the distinctions of our humanity?

1. We were sinners cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Through his death and resurrection He triumphantly dealt with the power and effect of sin. NOTHING now separates us from the Father.

Therefore, there's only now one unsettled issue:

2. How dependent on the Holy Spirit are we willing to live?

IMO, the primary reason many of us - charismatics or otherwise - are not living a life full of miracles and signs and wonders is because we have yet become completely dependent on power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. If we can grasp this truth and start to completely rely on the Holy Spirit, then the lifestyle of Jesus becomes a reality, full of miracles, signs, and wonders.

[KenBrauckmann]

Or perhaps we do not see the signs and wonders because we, in our fallen and corrupted state (until we put on incorruptibility in the Resurrection), we be too liable to gain pride and claim how great _we_ were and 'Look how greatly God is using _me_ !' ??

[BenAdam]

One thing I am sure of, I don't trust myself and my perceptions.

[Simon_Templar]

I know a man who has said that it is possible to completely understand all the things of God if you break things down to their simplest components.

He has also implied to me that he has arrived at that point in his life.

I’ve noticed that all of the things he relates to God are related through human understanding. His god fits neatly inside his own head

So, God’s goodness can only fit into an earthly understanding of “goodness”

God would never use sickness because an earthly father would be bad to do so.

Man becomes the measuring stick for God.

So, all the scripture where the bible says God sent plague, or destruction, or death is either ignored, misinterpreted, or attributed to a 3rd party agent (the devil) who somehow accomplishes the will of God for Him but leaves His hands clean.


I don’t get it

John O.
It has been said, by someone smarter than me (though I can't remember which one exactly said it now) that if God has a problem... it is trying to communicate the infinite to a finite mind.

God wants us to relate to him and that requires us to understand him on some level. Yet how does the infinite communicate itself to we who are so very finite.

I believe that we can understand God to a the degree that is necessary for us to relate to him and to love him, because I believe that God is capable of accomplishing that in us.
However, anyone who thinks that they have plumbed God's depths is merely revealing the fact that they have not understood even the most basic truth about him, that he is infinite. How does one reach the end of eternity? How do you break eternity down into its constituent parts? How do you break endlessness and limitlessness down?

Then of course I would have to point out the fact that God can not be "broken down" by his very nature because he is utterly and completely one. Its like trying to divide a singularity into smaller units of measure.
There are no components and no constituent parts into which he can be divided because everything about him is one. You can't divide his love from his wrath, or his justice from his mercy... the truth is they are all one and the same. The minute you try, you have already misunderstood.

[BenAdam]

It has been said, by someone smarter than me (though I can't remember which one exactly said it now) that if God has a problem... it is trying to communicate the infinite to a finite mind.

God wants us to relate to him and that requires us to understand him on some level. Yet how does the infinite communicate itself to we who are so very finite.

I believe that we can understand God to a the degree that is necessary for us to relate to him and to love him, because I believe that God is capable of accomplishing that in us.
However, anyone who thinks that they have plumbed God's depths is merely revealing the fact that they have not understood even the most basic truth about him, that he is infinite. How does one reach the end of eternity? How do you break eternity down into its constituent parts? How do you break endlessness and limitlessness down?

Then of course I would have to point out the fact that God can not be "broken down" by his very nature because he is utterly and completely one. Its like trying to divide a singularity into smaller units of measure.
There are no components and no constituent parts into which he can be divided because everything about him is one. You can't divide his love from his wrath, or his justice from his mercy... the truth is they are all one and the same. The minute you try, you have already misunderstood.
I agree that God wants us to relate to Him. I look at it this way though. Imagine Michio Kaku (http://www.mkaku.org A theorectical physicist) has a child. He wants to relate to that child. However his ability to relate to that child is significantly limited until the child does 2 things. 1. The child needs to mature in order to have the ability to learn. 2. The child needs to learn the things that allow him to relate fully with his father. IMHO while we live in this life we are mostly doing number 1 and some of number 2.