Baptism is repentance

[LJSGM]

Is baptism a form of repentance, the perfered form? Is it also a declaration before men of their faith in Christ? Is it a literal dying to your self and being raised to live, being born again, or is simple repentance without baptism enough in all cases?

Most people probably feel that baptism is symbolic, but is it just symbolism or something more? Is it required for salvation? I know that repentance is required for salvation.

Matthew 3


11"I baptize you with[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse#fen-NIV-23204a)] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Matthew 3

6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

John 3


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Does he mean: water=repentance=death then follows spirit=new spirit=risen life?

[plmarquette]

baptism of water , of blood, of fire, of repentance, of service ....outward sign of an inward commitment...

in some circles it is a ritual... for people deny the power of the Holy Spirit in the confession and administration ; while others lose out on the blessing .. James 4.2-7 ..

while others argue about the form

[ForeverChristian]

Baptism as God intended it was a daily cleansing of our sinful being. It is our connection to the spirit. I believe that all who are baptized are welcomed into Heaven, because your name is written in the book of the Lamb of God. Remembered forever.

[aggie03]

May anyone participate in this discussion? If it is all right, I will add a response. Otherwise, I will ask an admin to delete this. Thank you!

[ForeverChristian]

i think its an open discussion... go for it :)

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm thinking that maybe baptism somehow completes repentance.... But we need to repent as well. I can imagine a person who gets baptized but doesnt' repent in his heart (for example, if he's baptized as a baby or just because his family is Christian). This seems imcomplete, because the Bible clearly tells us that those who believe have eternal life.

I see baptism as a physical manifestation of repentance, if that makes sense, and a completion of it.

[aggie03]

Is baptism a form of repentance, the perfered form?

No, I do not think that baptism is a form of repentance. I'm going to get a little deeper into why I believe that later on in your post. But to start things off, repentance and baptism are two different things, though they are connected together in the baptism of John.

Is it also a declaration before men of their faith in Christ?

I don't think that this is quite right either. Baptism is not just a sign or a symbol to show people that you believe in Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Baptism is to be a public thing so that everyone knows that you are a Christian. As far as I can tell, the only public course of action that one takes to identify themselves as a Christian is the type of love that they are to have (John 13.34-36).

Is it a literal dying to your self and being raised to live, being born again, or is simple repentance without baptism enough in all cases?

I think that this is the closest of all the things that you've mentioned. It's not a literal dying because you don't lose your physical life when you are baptized (that is, as long as you do come up out of the water ;) ). What should be, however, is the point where you bury the old person that you used to be. That's all that we do. When we decide that we are going to live for Jesus Christ - it is at that moment that we crucify ourselves. When we are baptized, then we are buried. When we come up out of the water, it is God who raises us as a new creature. Colossians 2.12 tells us that baptism is the point where our faith meets God, and then God saves us through his powerful working.

Colossians 2:11-12 ESV

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Most people probably feel that baptism is symbolic, but is it just symbolism or something more? Is it required for salvation? I know that repentance is required for salvation.

Is baptism a sign or a symbol? I guess that it depends on how you use those words. Regardless, it is also a work that God commands us to do, just like faith or repentance, which you have already mentioned.

I agree with you that repentance is necessary for one to be saved. Jesus makes this very clear in Luke 13.3,5. In fact, he says that it's necessary twice! Peter also states that repentance is necessary in Acts 2.38. How then, did we come to the conclusion that repentance was necessary in order to be saved? Well, God said so. It's quite simple really.

What about verses that we read where only faith is mentioned? Does that mean that we don't have to repent. Absolutely not. If God had only mentioned that repentance was necessary one time, that's the only time he would ever have to mention it. The fact is, we can't make the Bible passages wage war with one another. We have to make them agree with one another. If there is a place that says faith is necessary, then it is. If there is a place that says repentance is necessary, then it is necessary, too.

So, let's apply this all to baptism. There are places where the Bible says that one must be baptized. Acts 2.38 is a good place. Peter says that the Jews who killed Jesus must both repent and be baptized. Both of these things are necessary. Then we must also look at the reason that Peter says to be baptized:

Acts 2:38-39 ESV

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The reason that we should be baptized is in order to have our sins forgiven. Now, hang on a second! Does that mean that baptism earns the forgiveness of our sins? No, no more than repentance earns you a place in heaven. DO you believe that you deserve to be saved because you repent? No, and I don't either. I also don't believe that someone who is baptized deserves to have their sins forgiven, but that is what God has said is necessary. If God has said it, then I am going to do it. It's quite simple.

There are a few other places where God has mentioned baptism, but there is one in particular that I would like to look at right now:

Mark 16:15-17 ESV

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

These are some words that Jesus spoke to his disciples after he was raised from the dead. The first thing that he says is the most important. He tells them to preach the gospel to all the creation, meaning to all of mankind. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not just for the Jewish people, but for anyone who is willing to listen and believe. In fact, the gospel must be preached in order for us to believe, for faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10.17). John tells us that he wrote his gospel account so that we could believe in Jesus Christ (John 20.30-31).

Then, after people hear the gospel, they must believe it. There is no way to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ if someone refuses to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. If someone will not believe, it doesn't matter what else they do, they will never be saved. This is why it is so critically important that we preach the gospel to people. They only way they will ever believe is if they hear, and the only way they will hear is if we preach to them.

After someone believes that Jesus is the son of God, they must be baptized. Jesus says that the person who believes and is baptized will be saved. In fact, I would argue that if someone is not willing to be baptized, then they don't really believe. Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Would you refuse to do something that an earthly king commanded? Well, you might, but you should also expect to be punished. Jesus is the King of Kings - if we really do believe in him then we are going to do what he says. If we do not obey him, then we can certainly expect to be punished.

Now, the rest of the verse says that the one who disbelieves will be condemned. What this has reference to, I believe, is someone who used to believe but then for one reason or another stopped. Salvation is not an event; it is an ongoing process. We are going to ultimately be saved from our sins at the end of all the ages when Christ comes again and we stand in judgment before Him. If you stop believing in Him before you finish your life here on earth, then you will not be saved in the last day. We cannot get wet once and then expect that makes the rest of our life good. We must believe, be baptized and then continue to believe. Again, it's really quite simple :)

John 3

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Does he mean: water=repentance=death then follows spirit=new spirit=risen life?

No, I actually believe that when Jesus says water, he means water. The only way that this verse makes sense is if we let the words mean what they say. Jesus says that the people who will enter into the kingdom will be those who are born of water and the spirit. Compare this to what he says in Mark 16.16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved. We see both of the elements in both of the places. We must also remember that it is God who saves us when we are baptized. There is nothing in the water or in the act itself that merits our salvation. Rather, God has chosen to save us - to make us alive - at that point.

Let me ask you a question: What do you call a new life? If you're like me, you call it a birth. When Paul says that we are raised to a newness of life, I would consider that a "re-birth" or being "born again" (Romans 6.4). This is the same thing that Colossians 2 says, and Paul also mentions this in Ephesians 2 when he says that God "made us alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2.5). He also says that we are "saved by grace, through faith" (Ephesians 2.8), which I believe is a perfect picture of what takes place at baptism. When we have faith in the powerful working of God, remember Colossians 2.12, and we submit to the commands of God because of that faith, then God will save us through his grace.

I love the way that all of the Bible verses fit together when we consider them as one whole. I don't believe that God ever intended for one part of the Bible to be used against another; in fact, Psalm 119.160 says that the sum of God's word is truth. We must consider everything within the context of everything else!

I hope that this helps you to answer your question. I also look forward to hearing back from you about anything that you would like to have clarified, or any other questions that you might have. May God bless us all as we study his word together. :prayer:

[MoNiCa4316]

Aggie03, thanks for the thoughtful post! :) I think that's a good view on baptism.


Do you believe that baptism is only effective if the person has faith?

".....having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

[LJSGM]

No, I do not think that baptism is a form of repentance. I'm going to get a little deeper into why I believe that later on in your post. But to start things off, repentance and baptism are two different things, though they are connected together in the baptism of John.



I don't think that this is quite right either. Baptism is not just a sign or a symbol to show people that you believe in Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Baptism is to be a public thing so that everyone knows that you are a Christian. As far as I can tell, the only public course of action that one takes to identify themselves as a Christian is the type of love that they are to have (John 13.34-36).



I think that this is the closest of all the things that you've mentioned. It's not a literal dying because you don't lose your physical life when you are baptized (that is, as long as you do come up out of the water ;) ). What should be, however, is the point where you bury the old person that you used to be. That's all that we do. When we decide that we are going to live for Jesus Christ - it is at that moment that we crucify ourselves. When we are baptized, then we are buried. When we come up out of the water, it is God who raises us as a new creature. Colossians 2.12 tells us that baptism is the point where our faith meets God, and then God saves us through his powerful working.

Colossians 2:11-12 ESV

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.



Is baptism a sign or a symbol? I guess that it depends on how you use those words. Regardless, it is also a work that God commands us to do, just like faith or repentance, which you have already mentioned.

I agree with you that repentance is necessary for one to be saved. Jesus makes this very clear in Luke 13.3,5. In fact, he says that it's necessary twice! Peter also states that repentance is necessary in Acts 2.38. How then, did we come to the conclusion that repentance was necessary in order to be saved? Well, God said so. It's quite simple really.

What about verses that we read where only faith is mentioned? Does that mean that we don't have to repent. Absolutely not. If God had only mentioned that repentance was necessary one time, that's the only time he would ever have to mention it. The fact is, we can't make the Bible passages wage war with one another. We have to make them agree with one another. If there is a place that says faith is necessary, then it is. If there is a place that says repentance is necessary, then it is necessary, too.

So, let's apply this all to baptism. There are places where the Bible says that one must be baptized. Acts 2.38 is a good place. Peter says that the Jews who killed Jesus must both repent and be baptized. Both of these things are necessary. Then we must also look at the reason that Peter says to be baptized:

Acts 2:38-39 ESV

And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The reason that we should be baptized is in order to have our sins forgiven. Now, hang on a second! Does that mean that baptism earns the forgiveness of our sins? No, no more than repentance earns you a place in heaven. DO you believe that you deserve to be saved because you repent? No, and I don't either. I also don't believe that someone who is baptized deserves to have their sins forgiven, but that is what God has said is necessary. If God has said it, then I am going to do it. It's quite simple.

There are a few other places where God has mentioned baptism, but there is one in particular that I would like to look at right now:

Mark 16:15-17 ESV

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

These are some words that Jesus spoke to his disciples after he was raised from the dead. The first thing that he says is the most important. He tells them to preach the gospel to all the creation, meaning to all of mankind. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not just for the Jewish people, but for anyone who is willing to listen and believe. In fact, the gospel must be preached in order for us to believe, for faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10.17). John tells us that he wrote his gospel account so that we could believe in Jesus Christ (John 20.30-31).

Then, after people hear the gospel, they must believe it. There is no way to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ if someone refuses to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. If someone will not believe, it doesn't matter what else they do, they will never be saved. This is why it is so critically important that we preach the gospel to people. They only way they will ever believe is if they hear, and the only way they will hear is if we preach to them.

After someone believes that Jesus is the son of God, they must be baptized. Jesus says that the person who believes and is baptized will be saved. In fact, I would argue that if someone is not willing to be baptized, then they don't really believe. Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Would you refuse to do something that an earthly king commanded? Well, you might, but you should also expect to be punished. Jesus is the King of Kings - if we really do believe in him then we are going to do what he says. If we do not obey him, then we can certainly expect to be punished.

Now, the rest of the verse says that the one who disbelieves will be condemned. What this has reference to, I believe, is someone who used to believe but then for one reason or another stopped. Salvation is not an event; it is an ongoing process. We are going to ultimately be saved from our sins at the end of all the ages when Christ comes again and we stand in judgment before Him. If you stop believing in Him before you finish your life here on earth, then you will not be saved in the last day. We cannot get wet once and then expect that makes the rest of our life good. We must believe, be baptized and then continue to believe. Again, it's really quite simple :)



No, I actually believe that when Jesus says water, he means water. The only way that this verse makes sense is if we let the words mean what they say. Jesus says that the people who will enter into the kingdom will be those who are born of water and the spirit. Compare this to what he says in Mark 16.16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved. We see both of the elements in both of the places. We must also remember that it is God who saves us when we are baptized. There is nothing in the water or in the act itself that merits our salvation. Rather, God has chosen to save us - to make us alive - at that point.

Let me ask you a question: What do you call a new life? If you're like me, you call it a birth. When Paul says that we are raised to a newness of life, I would consider that a "re-birth" or being "born again" (Romans 6.4). This is the same thing that Colossians 2 says, and Paul also mentions this in Ephesians 2 when he says that God "made us alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2.5). He also says that we are "saved by grace, through faith" (Ephesians 2.8), which I believe is a perfect picture of what takes place at baptism. When we have faith in the powerful working of God, remember Colossians 2.12, and we submit to the commands of God because of that faith, then God will save us through his grace.

I love the way that all of the Bible verses fit together when we consider them as one whole. I don't believe that God ever intended for one part of the Bible to be used against another; in fact, Psalm 119.160 says that the sum of God's word is truth. We must consider everything within the context of everything else!

I hope that this helps you to answer your question. I also look forward to hearing back from you about anything that you would like to have clarified, or any other questions that you might have. May God bless us all as we study his word together. :prayer:
Great post. Does anyone have a problem with this belief about baptism?

I know this is not a question to ask, but what happens to the people that simply believe and repent, but are not baptized? Perhaps it was because they were taught that is wasn't needed and didn't know (there are many out there that teach this)?

[aggie03]

Aggie03, thanks for the thoughtful post! :) I think that's a good view on baptism.


Do you believe that baptism is only effective if the person has faith?

".....having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

Thank you! :) Yes, I think that in order for someone to be "baptized", they must believe that Jesus is the son of God. The verse that you mentioned, I believe, clearly shows that to be the case.

[LivingWordUnity]

1) One Lord, one faith, one baptism
Eph. 4:5

2) Baptism washes away our sins, regenerates us, and renews us in the Holy Spirit
Acts 2:37-39, Acts 22:16 and Titus 3:5

3) Baptism is necessary for our salvation
Mark 16:16, John 3:5

4) Baptism is done with water
John 3:23, Acts 8:36, 1 Peter 3:20-21, and Ezek 36:25-27

5) Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize everyone who wanted to follow him
John 4:1

6) Jesus instructed his disciples to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
Matt. 28:19, John 4:1-2

7) Baptism is done to everyone in the household without exception
Acts 2:39 and Acts 16:15,33

8) Baptism has taken the place of circumcision
Col. 2:11–12

9) And circumcision was normally done to infants to bring them into God's covenant based on the faith of their parents and on a promise made by their parents to raise their child in the faith
Genesis 17:12

10) But Baptism is universally for males and females
Acts 8:12-13, Galatians 3:27-28

11) Infants/children are the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven, and God reveals Himself to them in ways adults can’t understand.

“At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?’ He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.’” (Matt. 18:1-3)

“People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, 'Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Amen, I say to you, whoever does not accept the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it.'” (Luke 18:15-17)

“because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes” (Matt. 11:25)

[aggie03]

Great post. Does anyone have a problem with this belief about baptism?

Thank you!

I know this is not a question to ask, but what happens to the people that simply believe and repent, but are not baptized? Perhaps it was because they were taught that is wasn't needed and didn't know (there are many out there that teach this)?

I will start off by telling you that this is a question that I cannot answer. Truthfully, I cannot even tell whether you will be saved if you do all of the things that the Bible says. I cannot judge or know your heart. However, God who is greater than our hearts, can judge us and will rightfully determine who will and will not enter into heaven (1 John 3.20). Paul says the following regarding judgment:

1 Corinthians 4.4 ESV

I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.

Likewise, I am in no position to say who will or who will not be in heaven after the day of judgment. I am confident in the Great Judge that He will make all of the right decisions.

However, this does not mean that I cannot tell you some of the things that the Scriptures say.

Deuteronomy 32:4 ESV

The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he.

God is just. God has always been just, and God will always be just. This ought to give us great confidence and fear at the same moment. We ought to humble ourselves before the God who will not allow sin to go unpunished. We also ought to throw ourselves down in praised and worship the God who has given us His own Son so that our sins might be wiped away.

So here is the question of all questions: what will God do to those who never heard about the gospel on the day of judgment? I can't say for certain, but I have an idea.

Romans 2:12-16 ESV

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

When people who have not heard about the gospel and the love of God, yet they love and have hearts that seek after God, it seems as though they will be acceptable to God. While there have always been legal requirement, it was never the fulfillment of those requirements that made God happy - rather it was the heart of the person who served God.

We ought to approach God with love and tenderness because he loved us first, while we were still sinners (Romans 5.8; 1 John 4.19). There are people who have never picked up a Bible, yet they love the God that they are able to recognize through nature (Romans 1.20). We are without an excuse not to recognize that there is a God - a powerful God who created the universe that we should serve with our whole heart. People who do this, even though they don't have a Bible, they seem to be acceptable to God, for "he is a Jew who is one inwardly" (Romans 2.29).

We must remember, however, that God's decision is the one that matters, and we must be willing to accept whatever He judges.

Does this help to answer your question?

[LJSGM]

Power of the Holy Spirit has been lost in the church, to overcome sin and the gifts and the annoiting (not all is lost), and where is the love? I just wonder if baptism has something to do with this, since most of the church has given up on baptism, calling it works that need not be done, or it's just a symbol, ect. what are your thoughts?

[Spiritofprophecy]

Power of the Holy Spirit has been lost in the church, to overcome sin and the gifts and the annoiting (not all is lost), and where is the love? I just wonder if baptism has something to do with this, since most of the church has given up on baptism, calling it works that need not be done, or it's just a symbol, ect. what are your thoughts?
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Well spoken; And would seem, based on evidence; must at least in part be true.

As usual you infuse with insight, and cause the wrestling of spirit. I am not sure how we can know;spirit of baptism, which some totally deny exists. its a thought provoking post. Heard one post where HOly spirit is only for the Original disciples.

I can only say the Loss of spirit in church cannot help. And why men deny the spirit, is related to mens own evil I would think.

I pray my words offend not. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[aggie03]

Power of the Holy Spirit has been lost in the church, to overcome sin and the gifts and the annoiting (not all is lost), and where is the love? I just wonder if baptism has something to do with this, since most of the church has given up on baptism, calling it works that need not be done, or it's just a symbol, ect. what are your thoughts?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Would you mind explaining it to me?

[LJSGM]

I'm not even sure what I fully mean.

the disciples amongst others, before the baptism of the Holy Spirit, were in the upper room, trembling, afraid, lost, weak and blind. Then they were baptized with fire (the Holy Spirit), and what a HUGE difference that made. They went outside unafraid, speaking in tongues, overjoyed, full of love, sold everything they had and shared with each other, and started preaching the gospel full speed with signs and wonders.

For some reason believers these days are only recieving something in "part" in that most are no longer empowered, full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, ect, without our signs and wonders and still struggling with sin in their lives.

I just wonder if this has anything to do with water baptism, and it's significance. (repenance? dying to self and being raised with Christ a new creation?)

[aggie03]

I'm not even sure what I fully mean.

the disciples amongst others, before the baptism of the Holy Spirit, were in the upper room, trembling, afraid, lost, weak and blind. Then they were baptized with fire (the Holy Spirit), and what a HUGE difference that made. They went outside unafraid, speaking in tongues, overjoyed, full of love, sold everything they had and shared with each other, and started preaching the gospel full speed with signs and wonders.

For some reason believers these days are only recieving something in "part" in that most are no longer empowered, full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, ect, without our signs and wonders and still struggling with sin in their lives.

I just wonder if this has anything to do with water baptism, and it's significance. (repenance? dying to self and being raised with Christ a new creation?)

I think I understand what you are saying. In my experience, it has to deal with American religion in general. Most people want to feel good about their everlasting destiny, but they don't want God to interfere too much with their lives. It seems like a great deal of the problem is really with converting people instead of "churching" people. Does that make any sense?

[BroGinder]

Acts 2:38 was preached by Peter on the day of pentecost. This was a man that walked, and talked with Jesus to have understanding he asked right there on the spot during Jesus walk on this planet.

So did Peter miss the boat on this one. Did the other disciples that were with Peter who did not correct the preaching miss it as well? Peter preached to Repent ( Repenting means to turn 180 degrees and walk away from. Or change your direction away from the way you were going), be Baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( As far as the east is from the west)

Repent is the greek word metanoeho Which meant to think diffrently afterwards, that is, reconsider.
Remission is the greek word afesis to pardon, deliverance, forgiveness, liberty.

What about the conversation between John the baptist and Jesus. John stated he needed to be baptised of Jesus, but Jesus insisted John baptize him.

Why? To set an example which is what Jesus did ya know, LOL.

Anyway, just some additional thoughts form a simple man. God Bless