Why does Christ say to keep the Commandments? [Archive]

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reddogs

16th July 2007, 05:04 PM

It seems that Christ contineously held up the Commandments as a central theme for eternal life, as something to be upheld, as the basis of loving God and loving your fellow man. It is God transfering His Love to man, a understanding of Gods love throught his law.

Matthew 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=15&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=16&end_verse=18&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=34&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Greatest Commandment ] Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
Matthew 22:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=36&version=31&context=verse)
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Matthew 22:35-37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=35&end_verse=37&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=38&version=31&context=verse)
This is the first and greatest commandment.
Matthew 22:37-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=37&end_verse=39&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:39-41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=39&end_verse=41&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 10:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
Mark 10:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Greatest Commandment ] One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
Mark 12:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=30&version=9&context=verse)
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=30&end_verse=32&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 18:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
Luke 18:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 12:49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=49&version=9&context=verse)
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:48-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=48&end_verse=50&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 12:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=50&version=9&context=verse)
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=49&end_verse=50&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 13:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=21&version=9&context=verse)
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=31&version=9&context=verse)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John 14:30-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=30&end_verse=31&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 15:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)So why do so many people fight against what Christ so clearly upheld for us to observe, to love God and our fellow man?

Joshua 22:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."
Joshua 22:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Joshua 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Concetta

20th July 2007, 07:21 PM

Very good question. The world would be a much nicer place if people did uphold these commandments.

ricker

20th July 2007, 08:55 PM

I agree, Reddogs, It is good to keep Christ's commandments to Christians under the new covenant! Let's let God's light so shine among men! This is fruit of our relationship with God through the Holy Spirit and not of ourselves. Our "works" or commandment keeping doesn't save us.

Romans 10 says"9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Joshua 22:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."
Joshua 22:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Joshua 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Let's be careful not to confuse God's laws in the old covenant with Israel with the new covenant commands and I think we can all agree with you. God bless! Ricker

Steve Petersen

21st July 2007, 01:49 PM

djconklin

21st July 2007, 05:58 PM

let's not confuse the Law with Salvation.

I can never understand how anyone could confuse the two! Without the Law how would you know that you need to be saved? Without the Law how would you know what you need to be saved from? Without the Law how would you know who would save you?

jckstraw72

22nd July 2007, 12:12 PM

Jesus said to keep the commandments because it is necessary for salvation -- Paul says to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling -- this clearly takes effort on our part, but it is the sanctifying grace of God that saves. our faith strengthens our works and our works strengthen our faith -- this is a continuous cycle, known as theosis, or sanctification.

BrotherDave

22nd July 2007, 10:02 PM

Christ tells us to keep His commandments because they are the measure of salvation. If we believe we are saved then we love the Lord and will naturally keep His commandments. He tells us this in I John 2:3.

It is impossible to keep all the commandments while we have a sinful body that lusts after sin (Ro 7:24, 1 Cor 5:3, I Peter 2:11). But after God saves us we should see more and more in our lives a great desire to do things God’s way. As a result a saved person will be more and more in compliance with God’s commandments. If we should fall into a sin we will know it and feel deeply troubled in our hearts. There comes a point as God helps us to grow in grace where we are so much happier when we do things God’s way and the worldly desires of our past lose their attraction. Psalm 119 describes what it means to be a child of God and the importance of His commandments.

We are told the duty of man in Ecclesiasts 12:13 is to fear God and keep His commandments. We learn from John 12:48 and Ro 2:16 that the word (the law, the commandments) will judge men on the last day.

I think people “fight” this because as humans we want to believe we ARE good and loving. That we can somehow contribute to our eternal destiny. We are in complete control of our life. However the commandments of our creator tell us the opposite is true and it is only by God’s grace and the faith of Christ that anyone of us becomes saved from the rightful wrath of God.

So we need to constantly study God’s word and test ourselves to make sure our lives are aligned with God’s commandments (Gal 6:4, I Thess 5: 17, Eph 5:10). If not, there is nothing more important than praying for mercy and being in the gospel as often as possible because this is the environment in which God works (Ro 10:17).

Once we understand how wicked and undeserving of salvation we were (acknowledging that the commandments of God measure goodness) we very humbly come to the Lord and tremble with fear because we know that is only by God’s mercy (Ro 9:15) that we are free.

In Christ's service
Dave

.

Steve Petersen

22nd July 2007, 10:29 PM

If Christ had not kept the commandment he would have been a sinner.

If He tried to dissuade Israel from keeping them, He would have been a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13).

Cribstyl

24th July 2007, 09:27 AM

Why does Christ say to keep the Commandments?

When Christ said to keep His commandments He was talking about His instructions while He was with His apostles.
Jesus did not mean the 10 commandments because He continued to distinguish His ministry from His father's.
By reading the context of John14, Christ is not talking about any of the ten commandments that some teachers use this isolated verse to teach.

The red letters below tells the whole story, but if you see any hint of the ten commandments or the Law, make some noise.
In this chapter Christ reveals the roles of the father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Jhn 14:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jhn 14:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
Jhn 14:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Jhn 14:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Jhn 14:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn 14:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jhn 14:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Jhn 14:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jhn 14:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Jhn 14:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
Jhn 14:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. J (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)
hn 14:19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Jhn 14:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Jhn 14:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 14:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jhn 14:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Jhn 14:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Jhn 14:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.
Jhn 14:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jhn 14:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Jhn 14:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Jhn 14:29 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Jhn 14:30 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Jhn 14:31 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Where are the ten commandments address as a law to keep in this chapter?

The OP question is ask by those who intend to argue that Christ commandments is "the Law. "
They link certain isolated text together to reenforce a questionable teaching.

CRIB

Loveaboveall

24th July 2007, 10:21 AM

CRIB,

you bring up an interesting point... but one that may not be based on scripture.

You say that Jesus gave us "new" commandments. But then you say these "new" commandments are the "old" commandments to love God and love your neighbor. If they are as the old then why is there such a push to remake something that was already perfect? (Ps 19)

If you dig a little deeper into John 14 and 15 you will find that the Father's commandments and Jesus' commandments are one in the same. Jesus' just brought on a whole new meaning to the term "love".

Here is what I mean...

In 14:7-10 Jesus clearly outlines how he was able to live a perfect life in human form. He completely submitted His will to the Father and the FATHER worked through Him. If this is true, then what Jesus did was what the Father commanded Him to do because it was actually the Father working through Him. You following? In effect, Phillip should know who the Father was because Jesus was a PERFECT representation of the Father and His character! How was Jesus judged to be PERFECT by the way?

Notice in vs 10,24 that even the words Jesus spoke were not of HIM but of the FATHER. Is there really any case to suggest that Jesus had a separate set of commandments from the Father? Commandments that demonstrated the character of God? Can God's character change?

John 15:10 says, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Are these separate commandments our are they the same? Lets find out...

Take a quick look at 1 John 4-5 and you will find some more interesting information. John is basically summing up what Jesus spoke to them at the Last Supper.

1 John 4:21-5:3 "And this commandment have we from him(Jesus), That he who loveth God love his brother also. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his(Father's) commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his(Father's) commandments: and his(Father's) commandments are not grievous."

Jesus says in John 15:10 that He kept His Father's commandments, and we are to keep His(Jesus') commandments. In 1 John 4-5 we see that in reality these are the same commandments.

You may ask why Jesus made a distinction...Here is why.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

How can this be a "new" commandment? The word for love is "agape". This is God's perfect love. Until Jesus came and died we did not have a full understanding of what God's perfect love was/is! Jesus came to demonstrate to us how MUCH God loves us and how MUCH we are to love others. Jesus commanded us to love as He loves. This is "new" because before Jesus we did not have a concept of this love. With Jesus a "new" understanding of love was brought out. Read these verses with this understanding.

1 John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

God's love was manifested, made known, to us in Jesus! We now have an understanding or definition of God's love that we did not have before Jesus. It is a new commandment because before it was unknown how much God actually loved us! There was not a change in the commandments it was a change in the understanding of what LOVE really is.

One other note... Jesus commandments in John 14:15 are commanded to those who ALREADY love God. Notice that in 1 John it is never commanded to love God. Does this mean we do not have to love God? God forbid! It means that Jesus and John are speaking to those who have already accepted and believed on Jesus and have been baptized into His church. They are explaining what it really means to "Abide in Jesus, and Him in us". There is still a law that defines sin, that if broken one is deemed sinful. Those who have not accepted Jesus are just as much obligated to keep this law as those who have accepted Jesus. The commandments Jesus speaks of are to those who call themselves Christians and claim to be "abiding in Him". He makes it very clear that if this is so you WILL love as I have loved.

Please note that there has been NO change in what defines sin by this revelation of LOVE. Sin is the antithesis of God's love. If you change what sin is then by definition God's love must also be changed! This is IMPOSSIBLE!

Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not..."

Why would one want to suggest that God has changed anyways? What agenda would there be to this?

Cribstyl

25th July 2007, 07:39 AM

Thanks for your reply, and welcome..........

CRIB,

you bring up an interesting point... but one that may not be based on scripture.

I think that posting the whole chapter around the verse in question, makes my point based on the content of the scriptures rather than off texts reasoning.
My first post was to show by the context, that Jesus is not talking about the ten commandments when He said "keep my commandments. I red-lettered Christ's immediate discussion that shows what He calls His commandments rather than giving commentary that might establish a false understanding of Christ's words.
So the fact that OP said "Keep the commandment" in which he implies the ten and Jesus say Keep my commandments, in which Jesus mean exactly...Jhn 14:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.

It should be your burden to present text showing that Jesus meant the 10commandments as the things He spoken to His apostles.

Originally Posted by
You say that Jesus gave us "new" commandments.

But then you say these "new" commandments are the "old" commandments to love God and love your neighbor.

If they are as the old then why is there such a push to remake something that was already perfect? (Ps 19)

Repost where I said any of those things you just mentioned? :scratch:
You are not talking about the 10.com so apparently your agenda is not to answers questions but to raise your own arguments.

If you dig a little deeper into John 14 and 15 you will find that the Father's commandments and Jesus' commandments are one in the same. Jesus' just brought on a whole new meaning to the term "love".

If Jesus brought the whole meaning to the term Love, why do you teach that the 10.com is written on our hearts rather than love?

Here is what I mean...

In 14:7-10 Jesus clearly outlines how he was able to live a perfect life in human form. He completely submitted His will to the Father and the FATHER worked through Him. If this is true, then what Jesus did was what the Father commanded Him to do because it was actually the Father working through Him. You following? In effect, Phillip should know who the Father was because Jesus was a PERFECT representation of the Father and His character! How was Jesus judged to be PERFECT by the way?

Is that so?

Notice in vs 10,24 that even the words Jesus spoke were not of HIM but of the FATHER. Is there really any case to suggest that Jesus had a separate set of commandments from the Father? Commandments that demonstrated the character of God? Can God's character change?

John 15:10 says, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Are these separate commandments our are they the same? Lets find out...

Take a quick look at 1 John 4-5 and you will find some more interesting information. John is basically summing up what Jesus spoke to them at the Last Supper.

1 John 4:21-5:3 "And this commandment have we from him(Jesus), That he who loveth God love his brother also. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his(Father's) commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his(Father's) commandments: and his(Father's) commandments are not grievous."

Jesus says in John 15:10 that He kept His Father's commandments, and we are to keep His(Jesus') commandments. In 1 John 4-5 we see that in reality these are the same commandments.

You may ask why Jesus made a distinction...Here is why.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

How can this be a "new" commandment? The word for love is "agape". This is God's perfect love. Until Jesus came and died we did not have a full understanding of what God's perfect love was/is! Jesus came to demonstrate to us how MUCH God loves us and how MUCH we are to love others. Jesus commanded us to love as He loves. This is "new" because before Jesus we did not have a concept of this love. With Jesus a "new" understanding of love was brought out. Read these verses with this understanding.

1 John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

God's love was manifested, made known, to us in Jesus! We now have an understanding or definition of God's love that we did not have before Jesus. It is a new commandment because before it was unknown how much God actually loved us! There was not a change in the commandments it was a change in the understanding of what LOVE really is.

One other note... Jesus commandments in John 14:15 are commanded to those who ALREADY love God. Notice that in 1 John it is never commanded to love God. Does this mean we do not have to love God? God forbid! It means that Jesus and John are speaking to those who have already accepted and believed on Jesus and have been baptized into His church. They are explaining what it really means to "Abide in Jesus, and Him in us". There is still a law that defines sin, that if broken one is deemed sinful. Those who have not accepted Jesus are just as much obligated to keep this law as those who have accepted Jesus. The commandments Jesus speaks of are to those who call themselves Christians and claim to be "abiding in Him". He makes it very clear that if this is so you WILL love as I have loved.

Please note that there has been NO change in what defines sin by this revelation of LOVE. Sin is the antithesis of God's love. If you change what sin is then by definition God's love must also be changed! This is IMPOSSIBLE!

Malachi 3:6 "For I [am] the LORD, I change not..."

Why would one want to suggest that God has changed anyways? What agenda would there be to this?

I disagree with your reasoning...........No further comments.

CRIB

Loveaboveall

25th July 2007, 11:35 PM

Thanks for your reply, and welcome..........

I think that posting the whole chapter around the verse in question, makes my point based on the content of the scriptures rather than off texts reasoning.
My first post was to show by the context, that Jesus is not talking about the ten commandments when He said "keep my commandments. I red-lettered Christ's immediate discussion that shows what He calls His commandments rather than giving commentary that might establish a false understanding of Christ's words.
So the fact that OP said "Keep the commandment" in which he implies the ten and Jesus say Keep my commandments, in which Jesus mean exactly...Jhn 14:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=14&translation=kjv&x=8&y=11#)These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you.

It should be your burden to present text showing that Jesus meant the 10commandments as the things He spoken to His apostles.

My thinking is that Jesus did not give us "new" commandments as I assumed you meant because you apparently don't believe the 10 commandments have any use for us today. What I tried to illustrate was that Jesus commanded us to keep the 10 commandments in the only way that is pleasing to God, with "agape" love. Jesus brought out the true meaning of this love when He manifested it on the cross! "Abiding in Him" is the theme of John 15. Jesus promises us blessings when we abide in Him mainly that we will produce good fruit(works) because Jesus will work them through us. For us to "abide in Him" we must have already been drawn to Him and accepted the call to "Come unto me all ye that labor and I will give you rest". The only way we are drawn to Christ is by His love, and because He loved us we love Him. Thus, Jesus does not command love to God because He is speaking to those who ALREADY love God.

The key point is that if we love the Father, He WILL work through us good works, with "good works" defined as righteous works. Righteous is the opposite of unrighteous. How do we know what is unrighteous or sinful? Romans 3:20 " Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin." Which law is Paul speaking of? Romans 3:2 "Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." What are the "oracles of God" that were committed to the Jews that give us the knowledge of sin? Romans 2:22 " Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?" What law is it that contains the commands to not commit adultery and to not worship Idols? You got it the 10 commandments. The law that defines sin.

So when we "abide in Jesus" and are grafted to the "vine", we WILL love others as Jesus loves us, and Jesus will work through us good/righteous works that by definition are the keeping of the 10 commandments, which define what is righteous and what is sinful.

Repost where I said any of those things you just mentioned? :scratch:
You are not talking about the 10.com so apparently your agenda is not to answers questions but to raise your own arguments.

Forgive me for assuming that you believed Jesus was referring to a "new" law. I should not have assumed this. Most believe that if the 10 commandments are not applicable today that there is a "new" law that has taken its place which they term the "law of Christ". I should not have assumed you believed this. Could you please clarify what it is that you belive Jesus referred to when He used the term "commandments"? If you do not believe it is a "new" law, then must it not be the "old" or orginal law?

If Jesus brought the whole meaning to the term Love, why do you teach that the 10.com is written on our hearts rather than love?

Crib, the law is written on our hearts because it IS love. God's character is complete love. The law is a representation of God's character, which is righteousness! Anything that goes against God's character is selfishness, love of self, which is NOT the love of God. This selfishness/sinfulness is brought out in the 10 commandments. If we are completely selfLESS, unselfish, we will obey the 1st 4 which relate to how we love God; we will obey the last 6 which relate to how we love fellow man. It is ALL about love. When the 10 commandments are written on our hearts as the new covenant promises love is written on our hearts, and vice versa, when love is written on our hearts it is encompassed by a WANT to do what is righteous which is the keeping of the 10 commandments! They are one in the same.

Is that so?

I assume you are asking a rhetorical question. Could you enlighten me on where I may have strayed from the truth? How do you believe Jesus lived a perfect life on this earth? Do you believe it was possible for Him to have sinned? How did He overcome temptation? Or do you believe He was not tempted? I am sincerely curious as to what you do not agree with in my earlier statement.

I disagree with your reasoning...........No further comments.

I respect your unwillingness to make further comment. That is your choice. I would ask that you prayerfully consider what I have sayed in regards to these topics as I believe that they are very important in understanding God's love and what He expects of us. There is a very good book called "Abiding in Christ" by Andrew Murray that really brings out what it truly means to "Abide in Christ". You can find it at most christian bookstores. Rest assured he is not SDA, he is an author from the late 1800's which, IMO, they had a much better understanding of scripture and God's love. I pray that you will venture out and get this book and study John 13-17 while reading along with Andrew Murray. I have no doubt you will be blessed, not to agree with what I say, but to have a much better relationship with Jesus. This book is that eye-opening!

blessings,

Loveaboveall

31st July 2007, 09:59 PM

I was hoping to have some feedback on the above post! Anyone?

Cribstyl

1st August 2007, 07:57 AM

[/color]

My thinking is that Jesus did not give us "new" commandments as I assumed you meant because you apparently don't believe the 10 commandments have any use for us today.

What I tried to illustrate was that Jesus commanded us to keep the 10 commandments in the only way that is pleasing to God, with "agape" love.

Show where Jesus commands or isolates the ten commandments as God's law? Only by commentary can you make such claims.

I respect your unwillingness to make further comment. That is your choice. I would ask that you prayerfully consider what I have sayed in regards to these topics as I believe that they are very important in understanding God's love and what He expects of us. There is a very good book called "Abiding in Christ" by Andrew Murray that really brings out what it truly means to "Abide in Christ". You can find it at most christian bookstores. Rest assured he is not SDA, he is an author from the late 1800's which, IMO, they had a much better understanding of scripture and God's love. I pray that you will venture out and get this book and study John 13-17 while reading along with Andrew Murray. I have no doubt you will be blessed, not to agree with what I say, but to have a much better relationship with Jesus. This book is that eye-opening!

blessings,

It's fruitless to repeat the same disagreements over.
Be blessed

CRIB

ricker

3rd August 2007, 04:42 PM

I was hoping to have some feedback on the above post! Anyone?
Hi Loveaboveall! One thing you wrote that struck me as curious was:
Crib, the law is written on our hearts because it IS love. God's character is complete love. The law is a representation of God's character, which is righteousness!

Do you have any bible verses saying the law is love? Do you have any verses saying God's charactor is represented by the laws given to Israel? I can quote a couple of verses that seem to contradict your statements.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone....
You know the rest. Does God's love condem us to death?

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Here we see the law is not eternal and has a beginning and end. Does that sound like God's love?

9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, ...13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

You can argue that the old covenant is the same rules, only now written on our hearts, but it doesn't make sense after reading these verses. Obsolete doesn't mean written on our hearts to me. The fact is, we are now under the ministry of the Spirit, not the law.

Again, could you please give me a couple of bible verses backing up your statement saying the law is love I quoted above? Thanks!

Jon0388g

3rd August 2007, 05:13 PM

Hi Ricker, I hope you don't mind me taking a stab at some of your questions:)

Do you have any bible verses saying the law is love?

Here goes:

"..for God is love." 1 John 4:8

"Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

Do you have any verses saying God's charactor is represented by the laws given to Israel?

Sure do....

Righteousness:
"The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds." Psalm 145:17

"Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness." Psalm 119:172

Goodness:
"Good and upright is the LORD; therefore He instructs sinners in the way." Psalm 25:8

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” Romans 7:12

Everlasting:
"Then Abraham called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God" Genesis 21:33

"The works of His hands are truth and justice; all His precepts are sure. They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness." Psalm 111:7,8

Holiness:
"because it is written, "you shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:16

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” Romans 7:12

Perfect:
"You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48

"The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul" Psalm 19:7

Spiritual:
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" John 4:24

"For we know that the Law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

The character traits of our Lord are pretty much stated to be true also of His law...

I can quote a couple of verses that seem to contradict your statements.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone....
You know the rest. Does God's love condem us to death?

Of course, the law brings death to us all, why?

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

And sin is the transgression of what?

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Here we see the law is not eternal and has a beginning and end. Does that sound like God's love?

What about the above verse which declared God's precepts are upheld "forever and ever"? Also, what about this verse:

"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

Has the Bible contradicted itself?

Also, note the law Paul is referring to was added because of transgressions. What is your understanding of this part?

Thanks!

Jon

Cribstyl

3rd August 2007, 09:59 PM

Hi Loveaboveall! One thing you wrote that struck me as curious was:

Do you have any bible verses saying the law is love? Do you have any verses saying God's charactor is represented by the laws given to Israel? I can quote a couple of verses that seem to contradict your statements.

7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone....
You know the rest. Does God's love condem us to death?

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Here we see the law is not eternal and has a beginning and end. Does that sound like God's love?

9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, ...13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

You can argue that the old covenant is the same rules, only now written on our hearts, but it doesn't make sense after reading these verses. Obsolete doesn't mean written on our hearts to me. The fact is, we are now under the ministry of the Spirit, not the law.

Again, could you please give me a couple of bible verses backing up your statement saying the law is love I quoted above? Thanks!
:thumbsup: :amen:

ricker

4th August 2007, 03:24 PM

Hi Ricker, I hope you don't mind me taking a stab at some of your questions:)

[quote]
"..for God is love." 1 John 4:8

"Love does no wrong to a neighbour; therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Righteousness:

"The LORD is righteous in all His ways and kind in all His deeds." Psalm 145:17

"Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness." Psalm 119:172

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Goodness:

"Good and upright is the LORD; therefore He instructs sinners in the way." Psalm 25:8

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” Romans 7:12

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Everlasting:

"Then Abraham called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God" Genesis 21:33

"The works of His hands are truth and justice; all His precepts are sure. They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness." Psalm 111:7,8

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Holiness:

"because it is written, "you shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:16

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” Romans 7:12

Two unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Perfect:
"
You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48

"The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul" Psalm 19:7

Two unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Spiritual:

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" John 4:24

"For we know that the Law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

Two out unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Honestly, Jon, from our past "conversations" I have a lot of respect for you and thought you would do better than this. A person can obviously "prove" anything their heart desires by quoting unrelated verses together out of context.

Of course, the law brings death to us all, why?

It was stated earier that the law is God's love, and I dont't believe God's love brings us death, but rather sin does and God saves us from it.

"
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

And sin is the transgression of what?

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

What about the above verse which declared God's precepts are upheld "forever and ever"? Also, what about this verse:

"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven." Psalm 119:89

Has the Bible contradicted itself?

The Bible uses "forever" and "through your generations" speaking to the COI and it doesn't always mean it is in effect for us Christians. Would you like me to give you some examples? And does "word settled in heaven" mean the ten commandments plus a few others?

Also, note the law Paul is referring to was added because of transgressions. What is your understanding of this part?

My understanding of "because of transgressions" is inconsequential. What matters is that it was "added till the Seed". The law given to the Israelites is not eternal.
I'm really not argueing there are no rules or commandments or guidelines that the Spirit leads us to follow. I just saw a statement or two that I had to address. It just seems to me some people in some denominations worship the law given to Moses for the COI more than they do Jesus. I hope this is not the case! God bless! Ricker

Jon0388g

5th August 2007, 03:41 PM

Righteousness:[/B]

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Goodness:

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Everlasting:

Two unrelated out of context verses thrown together.

Holiness:

Two unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Perfect:
"
Two unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Spiritual:

Two out unrelated and out of context verses thrown together.

Honestly, Jon, from our past "conversations" I have a lot of respect for you and thought you would do better than this. A person can obviously "prove" anything their heart desires by quoting unrelated verses together out of context.

Did you read the texts? If I read from my catalogue "the shoes are red" and also from my newspaper "the car is red" do the two not have any relation?

Hmm. I can only plant the seed....

It was stated earier that the law is God's love, and I dont't believe God's love brings us death, but rather sin does and God saves us from it.

I don't think God's law is His love. Does it reflect His love? Yes.

"

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

See bolded section. So, based on your conclusion, the sins of the world before Sinai were not taken into account?

The Bible uses "forever" and "through your generations" speaking to the COI and it doesn't always mean it is in effect for us Christians. Would you like me to give you some examples? And does "word settled in heaven" mean the ten commandments plus a few others?

I know the examples, thanks.

What I would like to know, is: where you see the reference to the children of Israel in that passage. David is speaking to His Messiah. "Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven."

Show me one text in Scripture where "forever" and "Lord" are used in the figurative sense.

My understanding of "because of transgressions" is inconsequential. What matters is that it was "added till the Seed". The law given to the Israelites is not eternal.

And there lies your fatal error. No Scripture is inconsequential. You either study it out, or you dont?!

"Because of transgressions" plainly presupposes that there were "transgressions" before the written law arrived in the world. Since according to Paul, "where there is no law, there is no transgression."

I'm really not argueing there are no rules or commandments or guidelines that the Spirit leads us to follow. I just saw a statement or two that I had to address. It just seems to me some people in some denominations worship the law given to Moses for the COI more than they do Jesus. I hope this is not the case! God bless! Ricker

Well, it's funny you say that, since Christ makes it clear how we can show we love Him, as the OP repeatedly stated.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

"And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17

I'll quietly withdraw from the discussion now...God Bless and nice speaking with you again!

Jon

Loveaboveall

5th August 2007, 10:54 PM

Ricker,

I don't think we are that far apart in our beliefs. For sure it is the Spirit who leads us into righteous deeds/works. Jesus says things very plainly in John 13-17, the last supper sermon. We can do nothing of ourselves to please God. We could try all day to keep the commandments as the rich young ruler claimed to have done, but it would not please God. Only through love can we do things that are pleasing to God. We do not have this love in us, it must be demonstrated THROUGH us by the spirit. We could never love with an "agape" love as Jesus did without the spirit working in us. Jesus makes it clear that this was the way that He was able to live His perfect life. Through his complete surrender to the spirit of God. Jesus did nothing and said nothing of Himself. The Spirit worked through Him the will of the Father.

Where we differ in reality is the issue of the Sabbath. That is the crux of the whole 10 commandments issue. I do believe you would accept that we are still bound to obey the other 9 for breaking those would be sin. Am I correct? So, in reality what you are saying is that the sabbath is the "ministration of death", the sabbath was given until the seed should come, the sabbath was contrary to us and against us. Does this really make sense?

The Sabbath was given to us at creation as a GIFT. A blessing from God. There is no logical/scientific reason we should have a 7 day week cycle. There have been civilizations in the past who tried to change it, some to 8 days some to 10 days, but it never materialized as lasting. Why? Because that is how God made us, to function on a 7 day cycle. And He gave us a whole day to do nothing but commune with Him. How wonderful a God we have! But there are so many people who want to call the Sabbath a burden? If you WANTED to spend time with your creator/savior why would you ever call it a burden? If anything you would keep it because you LOVE your savior and are drawn to Him by His love for you. So, you see, the Spirit leads those who are abiding in christ to keep the sabbath because they want to spend time with Him. We were programmed in the beginning to work on a 7 day cycle, and there is not one of us that can function optimally without a day of rest from physical labor. Some may do it but they are definitely not functioning optimally as we were created to.

My question is this, Why would you want to ever give up such a wonderful gift and blessing? It just doesn't make sense to me!

ricker

6th August 2007, 10:10 AM

I don't think we are that far apart in our beliefs. For sure it is the Spirit who leads us into righteous deeds/works. Jesus says things very plainly in John 13-17, the last supper sermon. We can do nothing of ourselves to please God. We could try all day to keep the commandments as the rich young ruler claimed to have done, but it would not please God. Only through love can we do things that are pleasing to God. We do not have this love in us, it must be demonstrated THROUGH us by the spirit. We could never love with an "agape" love as Jesus did without the spirit working in us. Jesus makes it clear that this was the way that He was able to live His perfect life. Through his complete surrender to the spirit of God. Jesus did nothing and said nothing of Himself. The Spirit worked through Him the will of the Father.

I agree!

Where we differ in reality is the issue of the Sabbath. That is the crux of the whole 10 commandments issue. I do believe you would accept that we are still bound to obey the other 9 for breaking those would be sin. Am I correct? So, in reality what you are saying is that the sabbath is the "ministration of death", the sabbath was given until the seed should come, the sabbath was contrary to us and against us. Does this really make sense?

I do think it is wrong to covet my neighbors wife, but it is not necessarily because it is mentioned in the ten commandments. The ten were the old covenant (Exodus 34:28), we are under the new.

The Sabbath was given to us at creation as a GIFT.
You do know the Sabbath wasn't given to Israel till exodus, right? Does the Bible anywhere say it is a gift or a blessing to Christians?

My question is this, Why would you want to ever give up such a wonderful gift and blessing? It just doesn't make sense to me!

I'ts not that I "just don't want to" observe the sabbath. Why don't you "want to" observe passover, or wear tassles on the corners of your garments?

I know I won't change your mind, but what does the Bible say?
Who was the sabbath exclusively given too?

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death;

10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

13 "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. 14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.

The sabbath is refered to by Paul as a shadow of Christ.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The new testament never commands Christians to observe the sabbath, nor is sabbath breaking listed in the many places wrong behavior is listed. There are no instructions on how to keep the sabbath, even though even in Jesus's ministry there was much friction on this matter, and Gentiles would have no idea at all what to do or not to do.
As far as that goes, nowhere in the old testament are Gentiles commanded to keep the sabbath, or punished for not keeping it.
Hebrews says our rest in Christ is "today", a perpetual rest from our works unto salvation. Per Romans 14, I certainly will not deny your blessing you say you recieve from trying to observe the sign of the old covenant given to Israel. The problem is with EGW when she writes the keeping of this old, fulfilled law will be the defining issue of who gets saved or not (when there is not even any mention of how Christians are to "keep" it!). Thanks for your dialog, you seem like a sincere, loving Christian. God bless, Ricker

ricker

6th August 2007, 03:48 PM

Did you read the texts? If I read from my catalogue "the shoes are red" and also from my newspaper "the car is red" do the two not have any relation?
Hmm. I can only plant the seed....

I read the snippets of texts you quoted, thank you. Bits of texts thrown together randomly is a terrible way to try to develop theology from the Bible. Very cultish, if I may add. Read the Bible in context please.

I don't think God's law is His love. Does it reflect His love? Yes.

The quote I was refering to was "the law is written on our hearts because it IS love"

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
See bolded section. So, based on your conclusion, the sins of the world before Sinai were not taken into account?

So are you disagreeing with "before the law was given, sin was in the world"? This is obviously speaking of the law given to Moses (including the ten).

I know the examples, thanks.

Your welcome.

What I would like to know, is: where you see the reference to the children of Israel in that passage. David is speaking to His Messiah. "Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven."

What exactly is your interpetation of "thy word is settled in heaven"?

Show me one text in Scripture where "forever" and "Lord" are used in the figurative sense.
May I use unrelated and out of context verses thrown together???

And there lies your fatal error. No Scripture is inconsequential. You either study it out, or you dont?!

I didn't say the phrase itself was unconsequential, It just doesn't change the fact that the law was added and has an expiration date 2000 years ago.

"Because of transgressions" plainly presupposes that there were "transgressions" before the written law arrived in the world. Since according to Paul, "where there is no law, there is no transgression."
It says the law was added (the Mosaic covenant). It doesn't say there were no other laws and precepts before Sinai. There were moral imperatives given before the sabbath was given to Israel.

Well, it's funny you say that, since Christ makes it clear how we can show we love Him, as the OP repeatedly stated.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

"And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:17

What does the beloved disciple say about the commandments and what is required for Christians to have confidence before God?

"21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

Nothing about keeping the law given to Moses to the COI. Nothing about a mandatory sabbath observance on the seventh day of the week. Remember, the new covenant will "not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers" and " he has made the first one obsolete".
What was the old covenant? "
28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments."
Thanks for the responses you have given. I suppose no minds will be changed, but I hope you can see things aren't as cut and dried as your Revelation seminars try to make them. God bless you ! Ricker

Cribstyl

6th August 2007, 09:10 PM

I'm not a Lutheran but my understanding is just as Ricker describes those text. I try extra hard to understand what Adventist believe because my wife is Adventist. I sincerely love them as brothers but my spirit will not allow me to compromize God's words in exchange for commentary outside of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Truth be told, the law, Revelation prophecies and sabbath keeping as presented by EGW is the focal point of their church.

much love
CRIB

LLWHA

6th August 2007, 10:53 PM

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes (lawyers) and Pharisees (politicians), ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So what Jesus is saying here is you are not going to Heaven unless you obey the commandments LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet better that the Lawyers and politicians of His day. If I remember right in Jesus' day the politicians were also priests.

You cannot have it both ways. If you are a follower of Jesus Christ you do as He did and as He says. Anyone that teaches against the Words of Jesus and The Father are of the devil. If you oppose God and Jesus and do the opposite of Their Words (Law) you are a follower of Satan. Satan means opposer.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It does look like if these followers of satan repent they can still get into heaven.

5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not murder; and whosoever shall murder shall be in danger of the Judgment:
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment:

It would appear that Jesus is stricter with His followers than Gods Law in the Torah. If I remember right Jesus is stricter about divorce, and adultery. His followers can not have more than one wife etc.

I would have to say that Jesus is stricter with His followers than Gods was with His Laws in the Torah.
It does appears Jesus wants His Followers to "exceed" the Law of God in the Torah and take it a step further.

5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in The Day of Judgment.

5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven IS perfect.

Jesus demands His Followers to be Perfect as God is Perfect.

12:50 For whosoever shall DO the Will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Jesus did the WILL of His Father and followed The Laws of God to the Dot. You as a follower must also.

12:30 He that is not WITH me is AGAINST me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

22:36 Master, which the Great Commandment in The Law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the First and Great Commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Mark

The Great Commandment
Mt. 22.34-40 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/22.html#34) 28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [I]is,
Hear, O Israel;The Lord our God is one Lord:30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: Deut. 6.4 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/05/6.html#4), 5 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/05/6.html#5) this is the first commandment.31 And the second is like, namely this,
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Lev. 19.18 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/03/19.html#18) There is none other commandment greater than these.32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: Deut. 4.35 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/05/4.html#35)
33 and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Hos. 6.6 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/28/6.html#6)
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. Lk. 10.25-28 (http://www.bartleby.com/108/42/10.html#25)

If you Love the "Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength" you Obey Him as Jesus did and Obey His COMMANDMENTS; LAWS; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and Diet.

Luke: 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the Word of God, and KEEP it.

Word means Law of God. Deut: 4:2 Ye shall not ADD unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the "I AM" your God which I COMMAND you.

LLWHA

6th August 2007, 11:30 PM

I agree!

I do think it is wrong to covet my neighbors wife, but it is not necessarily because it is mentioned in the ten commandments. The ten were the old covenant (Exodus 34:28), we are under the new.

You do know the Sabbath wasn't given to Israel till exodus, right? Does the Bible anywhere say it is a gift or a blessing to Christians?

I'ts not that I "just don't want to" observe the sabbath. Why don't you "want to" observe passover, or wear tassles on the corners of your garments?

I know I won't change your mind, but what does the Bible say?
Who was the sabbath exclusively given too?

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death;

10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

13 "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. 14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.

The sabbath is refered to by Paul as a shadow of Christ.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The new testament never commands Christians to observe the sabbath, nor is sabbath breaking listed in the many places wrong behavior is listed. There are no instructions on how to keep the sabbath, even though even in Jesus's ministry there was much friction on this matter, and Gentiles would have no idea at all what to do or not to do.
As far as that goes, nowhere in the old testament are Gentiles commanded to keep the sabbath, or punished for not keeping it.
Hebrews says our rest in Christ is "today", a perpetual rest from our works unto salvation. Per Romans 14, I certainly will not deny your blessing you say you recieve from trying to observe the sign of the old covenant given to Israel. The problem is with EGW when she writes the keeping of this old, fulfilled law will be the defining issue of who gets saved or not (when there is not even any mention of how Christians are to "keep" it!). Thanks for your dialog, you seem like a sincere, loving Christian. God bless, Ricker

So you are not an Israel? Israel mean Champion of God or thoses that Champion Gods Cause. The nation of Israel is Gods Nation and The Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given by Jesus to this Nation.

21:23 And when he was come into the Temple, the chief priests (Jews) and the elders of the people (Jews) came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

Matt: 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (the "10 lost tribes" - the "House of Israel").

6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If you are a follower of Christ you would be grafted onto the Tree of The House of Israel.

That would make you an Israelite, if you were a follower of Jesus Christ.

Loveaboveall

7th August 2007, 12:56 AM

I know I won't change your mind, but what does the Bible say?
Who was the sabbath exclusively given too?

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death;

10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the desert. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.

13 "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. 14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.

Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The COI were to be a light to the world. To take the knowledge of God to the world and bring them all into a saving covenant relationship with Him. The sabbath along with the other 9 commandments give us principle of right and wrong. If we break them, we sin, and we must accept that we need a savior. All have sinned which means all have broken God's law that defines what sin is, including the gentiles!

The sabbath is refered to by Paul as a shadow of Christ.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I am curious how you view the sabbath as a shadow? It was created prefall. Which means that it was created before we needed a savior! We were to keep the sabbath with God every week, it was to be a day special/set aside to spend exclusively with Him. God with His creation. How do you view this as a shadow, for a shadow requires something better. Did God create something not perfect?

A quick look at Lev 23 shows some interesting things...

Lev 23:3 speaks of the sabbath but then the very next verse says this, "These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons."

The sabbath was distinct and separate from all the other "feasts". Theres more...

All the rest were time periods that coresponded with Jesus ministry...

Passover/feast of unleavened bread-- Crucifixion
Feast of first fruits-- Resurrection(interestingly, was not a holy convocation)
Pentecost (50 days after feast of first fruits)-- Pentecost/outpouring of Holy Spirit/Christ anointed as High Priest in Heaven
Day of Atonement-- Jesus enters into judgement
Feast of Tabernacles--Second Coming

But where is the antitype of the sabbath, the better version so to speak? I have heard some say that heaven is the antitype of the sabbath rest... But, types are in force until the antitype has come, we are not in heaven yet are we? And why would Isaiah describe us keeping the sabbath in the new earth if heaven/new earth was the antitype of the sabbath rest? "And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Is 66:23

The new testament never commands Christians to observe the sabbath, nor is sabbath breaking listed in the many places wrong behavior is listed. There are no instructions on how to keep the sabbath, even though even in Jesus's ministry there was much friction on this matter, and Gentiles would have no idea at all what to do or not to do.

Is it possible that the one commandment God said to "remember" was so widely known that there was no need to command the people to "keep" it. Apparently everywhere the apostles went they went to the synagogue on the sabbath, and if there was no synagogue they would find people who were praying (Lydia). If the apostles always found people worshipping on the sabbath then isn't it very possible that people knew what the sabbath was and how to keep it? In every letter we read from Paul we find that there are differences b/w Jews and Gentiles, meaning that there would always be Jews available to give the gentiles instruction in the "oracles of God", the law that defines sin, right? The new testament commands of what is wrong are the same as the "civil laws" of leviticus and deuteronomy. They define explicitly what the 10 commandments say in principle. The new testament "civil laws" NEVER contradict the 10 commandments which define sin, do they?

As far as that goes, nowhere in the old testament are Gentiles commanded to keep the sabbath, or punished for not keeping it.

See above Isa 56:6-7
All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Which means all have broken the law that defines what is righteousness and what is sin. If it was a sin for the israelites to break the sabbath, wouldn't it be just a little unfair for the gentiles to get a free pass? I mean if a gentile murdered they would be guilty right? What about stealing, or idol worship? In reality, ALL humans have sinned against God and we all need a savior. Under the old covenant a "gentile" could become part of God's people, if he accepted the covenant, meaning that he would be granted all the benefits of being a child of God, but he would also be obliged to keep the commandments of God to stay in right standing, or offer a sin offering as payment.

How is this different than today, when a "gentile" accepts Jesus they are baptized. Baptism is not commanded to the "heathen", or is it? You see it is all about the need for a savior. All of us need one, but only those who accept Jesus recieve the benefits of His grace. All are commanded to accept Jesus as a means of salvation, it has always been the same and always will be. When we accept Jesus we are changed and are expected to "live" as Jesus lived. Thus we are expected to keep the commandments that define sin. If we fail we must confess our sins and repent.

Hebrews says our rest in Christ is "today", a perpetual rest from our works unto salvation.

Here you are demonstrating a bit of a lack of knowledge of the covenants. In the old covenant, the COI were not saved by their works. There was never a time when anyone could save themselves by works. Romans 4 and Hebrews 11 make it clear that Faith has always been the requirement for salvation. Thus your statement, "rest from works unto salvation" does not really make sense. Could you please explain this idea further?

Per Romans 14, I certainly will not deny your blessing you say you recieve from trying to observe the sign of the old covenant given to Israel.

Romans 14 is dealing with fasting and the requirement of the jews that the gentiles keep this "oral law". Why do you refer to the sabbath as the "sign of the old covenant" when Moses clearly says that circumcision is in Gen 17?

The problem is with EGW when she writes the keeping of this old, fulfilled law will be the defining issue of who gets saved or not (when there is not even any mention of how Christians are to "keep" it!). Thanks for your dialog, you seem like a sincere, loving Christian. God bless, Ricker

Revelation clearly says the remnant of God, those living at the end of time are the ones who keep the commandments of God. Why do you have such a problem with what the bible clearly says? And there is plenty of examples of how christians are to keep the sabbath, just search sabbath within the Gospels and Jesus will tell you all you need to know about how to keep the sabbath as is appropriate for a "new covenant" christian. He teaches to keep it as it was orginally created for to be a communion with God and man, a blessing instead of a requirement. It is to be a delight!

Loveaboveall

7th August 2007, 12:57 AM

Cribstyl

7th August 2007, 03:24 AM

I am curious, do you keep the sabbath holy with your wife out of respect for her?
I respect what she honors, so yes I keep the sabbath at times and yes, I frequently attend Church with her. I have more Adventist friends than of my own church. :o

I have vegi meat antisapating guests all the time on Sabbath. My family is loved and honored because we love and respect everybody. My wife seldom attends my church.:(

I am not a hypocrite, I have a burden for all of God's people.

I study Adventism, it is in my life.

To think that an American prophetess at 17 could follow a man who got it wrong and admitted to error. Errors are at centerstage of many teachings because of contradiction to the bible.

I believe that God is a God of order. If the root is Holy the Lump is Holy. You cant get truth form error.
At the foundation of Adventism is a shaking until God's people will be free. To constantly edit out the many leaders and founders that have spoken out and the writtings that are forgeries, and the history the reveals the coverup.......

We know that God has called the Apostles to teach the doctrines of the church. Who's voice do you hear?

Why does the Sabbath lessons and sermons all cover topics with selected verses rather than the author's (Paul, Peter,etc) letters taking center stage? Mostly Old Testament lessons are taught line upon line.

Adventist intentionally misquote Jesus just to reenforce the ten commandments.

CRIB

ricker

7th August 2007, 08:27 AM

Isaiah 56:6-7 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

You're right, this seems to say strangers could enter into the old covenant by joining themselves with Israel.

The COI were to be a light to the world. To take the knowledge of God to the world and bring them all into a saving covenant relationship with Him.
Wrong. I read in the Bible of little or no evangelism commanded of or done by the COI.

I am curious how you view the sabbath as a shadow? It was created prefall. Which means that it was created before we needed a savior!

The Sabbath command was not given till the Exodus.
As far as the shadow, the Bible says:
"16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
Here we see the yearly, monthly, and weekly progression clearly showing it is a about the weekly Sabbath.

A quick look at Lev 23 shows some interesting things...

The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.
3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.

But where is the antitype of the sabbath, the better version so to speak? I have heard some say that heaven is the antitype of the sabbath rest... But, types are in force until the antitype has come, we are not in heaven yet are we?
You got me here. I don't really understand what you are trying to say. The Sabbath was given to the COI and is not required of us.
And why would Isaiah describe us keeping the sabbath in the new earth if heaven/new earth was the antitype of the sabbath rest ? "And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD." Is 66:23
Out of context. read the whole chapter and try to tell me it is saying we will keep sabbath in heaven. Are you keeping the monthly festivals, too?

Is it possible that the one commandment God said to "remember" was so widely known that there was no need to command the people to "keep" it. Apparently everywhere the apostles went they went to the synagogue on the sabbath, and if there was no synagogue they would find people who were praying (Lydia). If the apostles always found people worshipping on the sabbath then isn't it very possible that people knew what the sabbath was and how to keep it?
Beg my pardon, but this is such a lame excuse. Why did Paul and others give moral instruction on everything else then if they knew it all from the Jews? I know enough about SDA's to know the "rules" of sabbath keeping is a major point of contention, and we have the whole Bible at our fingertips, and you have your "spirit of prophesy" to make things even more clear. Give me a break.

Here you are demonstrating a bit of a lack of knowledge of the covenants. In the old covenant, the COI were not saved by their works. There was never a time when anyone could save themselves by works. Romans 4 and Hebrews 11 make it clear that Faith has always been the requirement for salvation. Thus your statement, "rest from works unto salvation" does not really make sense. Could you please explain this idea further?
Sorry, perhaps I didn't word my summation quite right. I will quote the verses for you.

7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Romans 14 is dealing with fasting and the requirement of the jews that the gentiles keep this "oral law".
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

Why do you refer to the sabbath as the "sign of the old covenant" when Moses clearly says that circumcision is in Gen 17?

"13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets"

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.' "

The way I understand it , circumcision was the entrance sign, and the sabbath was the ongoing sign.

Revelation clearly says the remnant of God, those living at the end of time are the ones who keep the commandments of God. Why do you have such a problem with what the bible clearly says?
Why do you assume this is speaking of the ten commandments given to Israel?

And there is plenty of examples of how christians are to keep the sabbath, just search sabbath within the Gospels and Jesus will tell you all you need to know about how to keep the sabbath as is appropriate for a "new covenant" christian. He teaches to keep it as it was orginally created for to be a communion with God and man, a blessing instead of a requirement. It is to be a delight

See my above comments. Search the for the word "sabbath" in the Bible after the new covenant was put into effect by Christ's death and resurrection. God bless! Ricker

ricker

7th August 2007, 01:18 PM

So you are not an Israel? Israel mean Champion of God or thoses that Champion Gods Cause. The nation of Israel is Gods Nation and The Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews and given by Jesus to this Nation.

21:23 And when he was come into the Temple, the chief priests (Jews) and the elders of the people (Jews) came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?

Matt: 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (the "10 lost tribes" - the "House of Israel").

6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are trying to say by posting these partial texts.

If you are a follower of Christ you would be grafted onto the Tree of The House of Israel.
That would make you an Israelite, if you were a follower of Jesus Christ.

I'm not grafted onto Israel, but Jesus.

If the woman had not separated from the man, and had not gone apart from him to talk to Satan, deciding to believe Satan in preference to God, thereby calling God the liar, she would not die with and have caused the man to die. His separation through worshipping the woman first rather than God became the beginning of death. Philip

I'm not sure where you got the idea Eve wandered off. The Bible says:
" 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

ricker

8th August 2007, 12:18 PM

I respect what she honors, so yes I keep the sabbath at times and yes, I frequently attend Church with her. I have more Adventist friends than of my own church. :o

I have vegi meat antisapating guests all the time on Sabbath. My family is loved and honored because we love and respect everybody. My wife seldom attends my church.:(

I am not a hypocrite, I have a burden for all of God's people.

I study Adventism, it is in my life.

That is a good, Christian attitude CRIB. There are many sincere Christians in the Adventist church and I enjoy fellowshipping with them on occasion. Many of my relatives are SDA and I try to "observe" the sabbath with them when they are around. I try to follow what Jesus says through Paul.
"1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him"
God bless! Ricker

david_x

8th August 2007, 02:38 PM

Why does Christ say to keep the Commandments?

It seems that Christ contineously held up the Commandments as a central theme for eternal life, as something to be upheld, as the basis of loving God and loving your fellow man. It is God transfering His Love to man, a understanding of Gods love throught his law.
Matthew 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 15:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=15&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Matthew 19:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=17&version=31&context=verse)
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&verse=16&end_verse=18&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=34&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Greatest Commandment ] Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
Matthew 22:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=36&version=31&context=verse)
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Matthew 22:35-37 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=35&end_verse=37&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=38&version=31&context=verse)
This is the first and greatest commandment.
Matthew 22:37-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=37&end_verse=39&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 22:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:39-41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&verse=39&end_verse=41&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 7:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mark 7:8-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&verse=8&end_verse=10&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=7&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 10:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
Mark 10:18-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=28&version=31&context=verse)
[ The Greatest Commandment ] One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
Mark 12:27-29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=29&version=9&context=verse)
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=9&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 12:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=30&version=9&context=verse)
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=31&version=31&context=verse)
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:30-32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=30&end_verse=32&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Mark 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 1:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.
Luke 1:5-7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&verse=5&end_verse=7&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=1&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 18:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=20&version=31&context=verse)
You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
Luke 18:19-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&verse=19&end_verse=21&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=18&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 12:49 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=49&version=9&context=verse)
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:48-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=48&end_verse=50&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 12:50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=50&version=9&context=verse)
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 12:49-50 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&verse=49&end_verse=50&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=12&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 13:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 13:33-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=13&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:14-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=21&version=9&context=verse)
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:20-22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=20&end_verse=22&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 14:31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=31&version=9&context=verse)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John 14:30-31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=30&end_verse=31&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 15:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:9-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
John 15:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=12&version=9&context=verse)
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:11-13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&verse=11&end_verse=13&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=15&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)So why do so many people fight against what Christ so clearly upheld for us to observe, to love God and our fellow man?

Joshua 22:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=5&version=31&context=verse)
But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul."
Joshua 22:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Joshua 22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=6&chapter=22&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Christ actually reiterates the commandments when he gave us the golden rules.

MoNiCa4316

11th August 2007, 08:49 PM

Christ told us to keep the Commandments because that is the evidence of our salvation, which happens by grace. If we are saved, we have the Holy Spirit which helps us obey God and overcome sin. We are a new creation.
The Commandments describe the type of people who are united with God, and He is making us into these type of people.

God bless!

monica

LLWHA

12th August 2007, 02:12 AM

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are trying to say by posting these partial texts.

I'm not grafted onto Israel, but Jesus.

I'm not sure where you got the idea Eve wandered off. The Bible says:
" 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it."

21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

So you are not of Gods nation and will not fight to restore Gods Law and Order?

Is this more to you liking?

15:24 Jesus said: It will not come by expectation; they will not say: "See, here", or: "See, there". But the Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth and men do not see it.
16:1 Simon Peter said to them: Let Mary go out from among us, because women are not worthy of the Life.
16:2 Jesus said: See, I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a Living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. AMEN

As far as I know Most scholars believe this was written in 40 AD some say it comes from 100 AD.
Some others believe a little later than 100 AD.

I like Philip and Thomas but I'M a Hebrew and am suspect to the words of non Hebrews. I'm not a gentile and the words of gentiles seem strange to me.

Being a Hebrew of The Nation of Israel I'm not sure the words of Paul were even meant for me. I'm of the opinion, me being a non Roman or Greek or gentile, paga