What happens after you die and have some sin to remove before being perfect?

[WarriorAngel]

IN other words, what if you die before you received absolvance from minor sins...?

You are not repentent because you either did not have to time to repent, or perhaps didnt see it as an offense?

Does the Lord purify you?
And thus allows you forgiveness of your offenses left without confession, or how would you explain the process?

Do you believe in a cleansing process which allows us into Heaven after the process is finished?

[WarriorAngel]

O, and I forgot to add...
WE all pray for the dead...
What in your opinion is the process before reaching Heaven?

[Secundulus]

O, and I forgot to add...
WE all pray for the dead...
What in your opinion is the process before reaching Heaven?

Purgatory, at least in my church, is neither accepted nor rejected. It is left up to the conscience of the individual.

Personally, I believe that some further process of sanctification has to occur after physical death. Whether that is purgatory or not, I don't know.

If I am to be judged solely on how well I have followed Christ on this earth then I am in a whole lot of trouble. My faith is strong but my flesh his sometimes weak.

[RadixLecti]

Most Anglicans do not believe in Purgatory as a literal place in the same way we believe in heaven and hell. Purgatory is seen as a sort of process that takes place after death that changes us from imperfect beings to perfected ones. No one can enter God's presense with sin.

[Albion]

IN other words, what if you die before you received absolvance from minor sins...?

You are not repentent because you either did not have to time to repent, or perhaps didnt see it as an offense?

Does the Lord purify you?

yes.


And thus allows you forgiveness of your offenses left without confession, or how would you explain the process?

Do you believe in a cleansing process which allows us into Heaven after the process is finished?

If you are forgiven your sins, you are forgiven. There's no tidying up called for if you are blameless, sinless.

What happens in heaven is a matter of speculation but many believe we grow in Godliness and wisdom there. That, however, doesn't have anything to do with removing sins.

[Albion]

Most Anglicans do not believe in Purgatory as a literal place in the same way we believe in heaven and hell. Purgatory is seen as a sort of process that takes place after death that changes us from imperfect beings to perfected ones. No one can enter God's presense with sin.

Most Anglicans do not believe in Purgatory, period. And if there were any intermediate place of preparation, it wouldn't be like the Medieval concept of Purgatory, which is a place of torment by definition.

[Albion]

If I am to be judged solely on how well I have followed Christ on this earth then I am in a whole lot of trouble.

I'd say!

But no one can be saved on his own merits. The whole idea of the Cross is that God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

[Colabomb]

I don't see sin as a quantitative thing. I see it more of a state. The question is not, how many sins are you getting rid of, but rather is your sinful nature dying?

Something happens that makes an imperfect Christian into a Perfect one, but I cannot say it has anything to do with time, or quantity of Sin. It could be an instantaneous perfection, or perhaps a full realization of Godliness when faced with His Glory.

I don't think our perfection has to do with getting rid of "leftover sin" but rather getting rid of the sinful core in the first place.

I know I don't explain these things well.

[Secundulus]

but rather is your sinful nature dying?

As I get older, I realize that I am not going to be perfect, by Christ's standards, while on this earth.

[Albion]

As I get older, I realize that I am not going to be perfect, by Christ's standards, while on this earth.

None of us are. So what do we conclude? That what Jesus taught was that everyone will go to a temporary Hell )i.e. Purgatory)for as long as it's necessary in order to be "perfect?" How, in fact, does one become perfect just by being tortured for a few or millions of years?

That, to me, mocks what he constantly taught and what the Bible seems to reiterate again and again about God's grace.

[karen freeinchristman]

I believe that God knows our hearts (we all believe that, don't we?). If you die before receiving absolution for sin, well, I believe that God would have known your heart all along the way. The Anglican Church does not require formal confession to a priest anyway, so we consider personal confession between the believer and God in prayer to be sufficient. The formal 'absolution' is a means by which people are reassured of forgiveness - it doesn't work as some kind of magic. This is the view of the Church of England, anyway.

[Simon_Templar]

I don't suggest this as the anglican position, but it is my current view based on my study of scripture and tradition.

It is confusing the way in which we speak of heaven and hell etc. It tends to involve alot of assumption. The ideas aren't well defined for most and are just kind of general notions of the place where God is and the place of the dead, or the underworld etc.

I believe that there is more than one heaven, per Paul's description of "3rd heaven". I believe this is probably set in the context of the hebrew conception of 7 heavens.

3rd heaven, specifically was a place which was split between a garden paradise on one hand, and a place of fire and ice, on the other.

Paul specifically identifies 3rd heaven with the term Paradise which Jesus used when he told the theif, this day you will be with me in paradise.

This place also appears to be in line with what Jesus described in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Thus, I believe that when a person dies they go to third heaven, which is not the immediate presence of God etc. The unrighteous go to the part that is fire and ice, while the righteous go to the paradise garden portion.

I believe that the righteous who dwell in 3rd heaven continue in their growth moving towards perfection, having less hinderance from the evils of this world, and the frailties of the mortal body.
I believe that the company of the saints is there, and the Jesus Christ is among them, but that they are not in the direct presense of God the Father.

While I don't particularly believe that all must suffer purging fire to be cleansed of their temporal sins, I do believe that the process of conforming to Christ continues and that each person receives whatever is necessary to complete that process.

I would refer to the verse in which Paul says that all who build on Christ are saved but some are saved as those who come through fire having lost everything. I believe that is refering mostly to the testing of our deeds and lives and that those things which are worthy withstand the fire while those things which are not are consumed. Thus, I don't think this refers to the purging of sin per say, but rather to the reward and honor a person receives based upon what they have done. I will not receive as great a reward, or honor as say St. John, or St. Peter etc.

[WarriorAngel]

I don't see sin as a quantitative thing. I see it more of a state. The question is not, how many sins are you getting rid of, but rather is your sinful nature dying?



That pretty much seems correct.
Your sinful nature before you enter Heaven...ie, you are purging the old self and becoming perfected to Christ.

None of us are. So what do we conclude? That what Jesus taught was that everyone will go to a temporary Hell )i.e. Purgatory)for as long as it's necessary in order to be "perfect?" How, in fact, does one become perfect just by being tortured for a few or millions of years?

That, to me, mocks what he constantly taught and what the Bible seems to reiterate again and again about God's grace.

Well, Christ taught the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to the master taking accounts of his servants....and the debtor thrown in the jail for torturers UNTIL he paid the last of his debt to the master... So Christ Himself taught we will stay in 'jail' until our debts are fully paid.
Paying attention to this parable being akin to the Kingdom of Heaven.

I believe that God knows our hearts (we all believe that, don't we?). If you die before receiving absolution for sin, well, I believe that God would have known your heart all along the way. The Anglican Church does not require formal confession to a priest anyway, so we consider personal confession between the believer and God in prayer to be sufficient. The formal 'absolution' is a means by which people are reassured of forgiveness - it doesn't work as some kind of magic. This is the view of the Church of England, anyway.

What if you were lukewarn? Or holding a grudge against another..? And had no intention to repent these?
Christ, as I said above, did say we would repay our debts [sins] to the master who is taking account of His servants.
So Christ did teach that whatever debts we owe [sins to remove against the Lord] it will be repaid.

I don't suggest this as the anglican position, but it is my current view based on my study of scripture and tradition.

It is confusing the way in which we speak of heaven and hell etc. It tends to involve alot of assumption. The ideas aren't well defined for most and are just kind of general notions of the place where God is and the place of the dead, or the underworld etc.

I believe that there is more than one heaven, per Paul's description of "3rd heaven". I believe this is probably set in the context of the hebrew conception of 7 heavens.

3rd heaven, specifically was a place which was split between a garden paradise on one hand, and a place of fire and ice, on the other.

Paul specifically identifies 3rd heaven with the term Paradise which Jesus used when he told the theif, this day you will be with me in paradise.

This place also appears to be in line with what Jesus described in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Thus, I believe that when a person dies they go to third heaven, which is not the immediate presence of God etc. The unrighteous go to the part that is fire and ice, while the righteous go to the paradise garden portion.

I believe that the righteous who dwell in 3rd heaven continue in their growth moving towards perfection, having less hinderance from the evils of this world, and the frailties of the mortal body.
I believe that the company of the saints is there, and the Jesus Christ is among them, but that they are not in the direct presense of God the Father.

While I don't particularly believe that all must suffer purging fire to be cleansed of their temporal sins, I do believe that the process of conforming to Christ continues and that each person receives whatever is necessary to complete that process.

I would refer to the verse in which Paul says that all who build on Christ are saved but some are saved as those who come through fire having lost everything. I believe that is refering mostly to the testing of our deeds and lives and that those things which are worthy withstand the fire while those things which are not are consumed. Thus, I don't think this refers to the purging of sin per say, but rather to the reward and honor a person receives based upon what they have done. I will not receive as great a reward, or honor as say St. John, or St. Peter etc.

I have heard something like this before.
The fire and ice makes some sense because God is fire..so scriptures tell us.
And He will fire silver like the silversmith til it is pure.

[HyacinthBouquet]

Receiving the Eucharist before death would be very important for me, personally. Formal confession to a priest is secondary to that i.e. it is not so important. The Eucharist is purifying but, obviously, a person should be sorry for their sins, in their heart, before receiving the Eucharist. Christ absolves sins.

[WarriorAngel]

Receiving the Eucharist before death would be very important for me, personally. Formal confession to a priest is secondary to that i.e. it is not so important. The Eucharist is purifying but, obviously, a person should be sorry for their sins, in their heart, before receiving the Eucharist. Christ absolves sins.


I tend to half agree.

I believe the Eucharist is primary. But I also believe that confession should be primary before receiving the Eucharist.

To receive unworthily is a steep offense. SO scriptures tell us. And the ECF's tell us.

SO we must be absolved first of our sins in order to receive ...[especially grave sins]

And I believe being absolved of our sins is necessary before death so that we may be in a state of absolution and forgiveness.

Lord have mercy!:crossrc:

[kamikat]

I believe the Eucharist is primary. But I also believe that confession should be primary before receiving the Eucharist.[/FONT]

To receive unworthily is a steep offense. SO scriptures tell us. And the ECF's tell us.

SO we must be absolved first of our sins in order to receive ...[especially grave sins]

This is a major difference between the RC and EOC. We don't believe confession is a require to reception of the Eucharist. We believe confession to be a seperate sacrament. Generally, one's spiritual father will gave a prescribed schedule (once per month, once every couple of months, ect). We believe that the Eucharist is for the remission of sin, as well as our spiritual health in general. This is the one of the prayers we say before communion

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom.

May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen.

[WarriorAngel]

This is a major difference between the RC and EOC. We don't believe confession is a require to reception of the Eucharist. We believe confession to be a seperate sacrament. Generally, one's spiritual father will gave a prescribed schedule (once per month, once every couple of months, ect). We believe that the Eucharist is for the remission of sin, as well as our spiritual health in general. This is the one of the prayers we say before communion

The CC doesnt believe we are required to confess our sins more than once per month..
But if we have committed any grave offenses, we should recieve confession before recieving the Eucharist.
The Grave offense being the problem.

If we feel we need to confess one week after our last confession, then we may do so.

What is absolutely minimum requirement for confession is at least once a year.

But I am in the belief that at the end of our lives, we should confess our sins and receive the Eucharist in the purest sense.

Whether or not we skip the final stages of removal of our sinful nature or not...due to our last confession, I feel every attempt to cleanse ourselves thru confession is probably imperative.

[WarriorAngel]

WE also may say before we receive the Eucharist a personal act of contrition...if we feel we are in need.

But at Mass we all say together..
'Lord, I am not worthy to receive you,
but only say the word and I shall be healed.'

This does not mean those who committed grave offenses should recieve.

[Albion]

Originally Posted by Albion http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36757882#post36757882)
None of us are. So what do we conclude? That what Jesus taught was that everyone will go to a temporary Hell )i.e. Purgatory)for as long as it's necessary in order to be "perfect?" How, in fact, does one become perfect just by being tortured for a few or millions of years?

That, to me, mocks what he constantly taught and what the Bible seems to reiterate again and again about God's grace.






Well, Christ taught the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to the master taking accounts of his servants....and the debtor thrown in the jail for torturers UNTIL he paid the last of his debt to the master... So Christ Himself taught we will stay in 'jail' until our debts are fully paid.

There's that one verse standing opposed to all the rest of Scripture, and every believer in Purgatory is taught to refer to it.

But it is obviously a simile, not a direct description. Look at your interpretation and see it through. The master here demanded that the debtor PAY HIS DEBT before being allowed release. In "Purgagory" you theoretically get tortured, but what debt is repaid in so doing? And in the parable, the servant can get out whenever he pays his debt. Not so "Purgatory," as we are taught it is supposed to be.

No, the analysis of jail=Purgatory doesn't work, if you look carefully at what is written in the verse.

Then we could also ask this: how does one become perfect by being tortured in a Purgatory? How much torture and anguish makes one perfect?

[WarriorAngel]

Originally Posted by Albion http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36757882#post36757882)
None of us are. So what do we conclude? That what Jesus taught was that everyone will go to a temporary Hell )i.e. Purgatory)for as long as it's necessary in order to be "perfect?" How, in fact, does one become perfect just by being tortured for a few or millions of years?

That, to me, mocks what he constantly taught and what the Bible seems to reiterate again and again about God's grace.



[/font]

There's that one verse standing opposed to all the rest of Scripture, and every believer in Purgatory is taught to refer to it.

But it is obviously a simile, not a direct description. Look at your interpretation and see it through. The master here demanded that the debtor PAY HIS DEBT before being allowed release. In "Purgagory" you theoretically get tortured, but what debt is repaid in so doing? And in the parable, the servant can get out whenever he pays his debt. Not so "Purgatory," as we are taught it is supposed to be.

No, the analysis of jail=Purgatory doesn't work, if you look carefully at what is written in the verse.

Then we could also ask this: how does one become perfect by being tortured in a Purgatory? How much torture and anguish makes one perfect?


The effects of sin are NOT removed by confession. The residual effects.

I am going to give an example...

Say a person in hatred and passion kills someone and them they in turn are shot, and he asks forgiveness...
He has the forgiveness but he dies.

NOW the risidual affects of the sin must be purged. IE, the fact he may have sent someone to hell by killing them, and causing pain to the ppl left behind, he is atoning as a penance he could not do since had not lived.

Penance is the action we do to make up for the effects of our sins.

For instance, in the CC, if we break a poor person's window because we threw stones at it, we not only ask forgiveness, and pray over it, but we are asked to make up for what we did. AS an example, we buy them a new window.

IF someone is pardoned for sin but still has not removed the effects of the sin...the sinner must do penance in purgatory by purging themselves of the residual 'effects' of that sin.

IE they shall pay for the penance was due to man and God.

Since they are no longer alive to do this, they are required by the Justice of the Lord to repay the debt somehow.

God forgives, but He also seeks we do penance...which is the proper translation in the Bible.

Many modern Bibles do not carry the act of penance per say as the proper term.

BUT as Traditional Churches we understand 'Penance' for our sins is the act we do on behalf of our partaking of the sins.

Here are SOME verses that include penance. There are many....at minimum of 66 or so.

Leviticus 5 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=3&ch=5&l=5&f=s#x)
5 Let him do penance for his sin,

Job 21 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=20&ch=21&l=2&f=s#x)
2 Hear, I beseech you, my words, and do penance.

Job 24 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=20&ch=24&l=23&f=s#x)
23 God hath given him place for penance, and he abuseth it unto pride: but his eyes are upon his ways.

Matthew 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=3&l=2&f=s#x)
2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x)
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.


Matthew 4 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=4&l=17&f=s#x)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 11 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=20&f=s#x)
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.

Matthew 11 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=21&f=s#x)
21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. [*Note the action of continued repenting and atoning by sackcloth and ashes]

Matthew 12 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=41&f=s#x)
41 The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Mark 1 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=1&l=4&f=s#x)
4 John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.

Mark 6 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=6&l=12&f=s#x)
12 And going forth they preached that men should do penance:

Luke 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=3&f=s#x)
3 And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x)
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 5 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=5&l=32&f=s#x)
32 I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

The proper meaning of penance...
pen·ance http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[pen-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngns]–noun 1.a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin. 2.a penitential discipline imposed by church authority. 3.a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

[Albion]

The effects of sin are NOT removed by confession. The residual effects.

I am going to give an example...

Say a person in hatred and passion kills someone and them they in turn are shot, and he asks forgiveness...
He has the forgiveness but he dies.

NOW the risidual affects of the sin must be purged. IE, the fact he may have sent someone to hell by killing them, and causing pain to the ppl left behind, he is atoning as a penance he could not do since had not lived.

As a theory, that's interesting, but I find that the Bible teaches that when you are forgiven, you are forgiven. "Risidual affects (sic)" is not a Biblical concept, and atonement is what Christ did for us.

Penance is the action we do to make up for the effects of our sins.

No, penitence is the remorse we feel when we turn to God for forgiveness.

For instance, in the CC, if we break a poor person's window because we threw stones at it, we not only ask forgiveness, and pray over it, but we are asked to make up for what we did. AS an example, we buy them a new window.

Then that would be a reparation, not penance.

[Simon_Templar]

[/FONT]

As a theory, that's interesting, but I find that the Bible teaches that when you are forgiven, you are forgiven. "Risidual affects (sic)" is not a Biblical concept, and atonement is what Christ did for us.

[B][COLOR=red]

No, penitence is the remorse we feel when we turn to God for forgiveness.



Then that would be a reparation, not penance.
would you say then that "producing fruits worthy of repentance" would mean penitential action?

[kamikat]

WA, we do not use the term penance and we do not practice penance in the same way that the RC does. As for your bible versus, it all depends on which version of the bible you use. In my bible, which is the version recommended to me by my priest and the same one we use, uses the word repentance in most of the cases where your bible uses the word penence. In some cases, it just isn't there. For example, your first example, Lev 5:5, my bible says
And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
that's a bit difference from what you quote.


BUT as Traditional Churches we understand 'Penance' for our sins is the act we do on behalf of our partaking of the sins.

Here are SOME verses that include penance. There are many....at minimum of 66 or so.

Leviticus 5 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=3&ch=5&l=5&f=s#x)
5 Let him do penance for his sin,

Job 21 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=20&ch=21&l=2&f=s#x)
2 Hear, I beseech you, my words, and do penance.

Job 24 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=20&ch=24&l=23&f=s#x)
23 God hath given him place for penance, and he abuseth it unto pride: but his eyes are upon his ways.

Matthew 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=3&l=2&f=s#x)
2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x)
8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.


Matthew 4 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=4&l=17&f=s#x)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 11 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=20&f=s#x)
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.

Matthew 11 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=11&l=21&f=s#x)
21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. [*Note the action of continued repenting and atoning by sackcloth and ashes]

Matthew 12 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=12&l=41&f=s#x)
41 The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Mark 1 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=1&l=4&f=s#x)
4 John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.

Mark 6 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=6&l=12&f=s#x)
12 And going forth they preached that men should do penance:

Luke 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=3&f=s#x)
3 And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;

Luke 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=8&f=s#x)
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 5 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=5&l=32&f=s#x)
32 I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

The proper meaning of penance...
pen·ance http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[pen-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngns]–noun 1.a punishment undergone in token of penitence for sin. 2.a penitential discipline imposed by church authority. 3.a sacrament, as in the Roman Catholic Church, consisting in a confession of sin, made with sorrow and with the intention of amendment, followed by the forgiveness of the sin.

[Albion]

would you say then that "producing fruits worthy of repentance" would mean penitential action?


Something like that. It's generally recognized that if one is truly sorry, he will make right the wrong that was committed. If he only says "Sorry," that's not probably real contrition.

But when we start hearing about working off sins before getting to heaven, "residual effects" of sin, and other such theories as that, we're out of the realm of the Bible and into philosophy.

A good way to see that this is the case is to think it through and see how lacking some of this is. For example, we were given the analogy of one who breaks a window. He can't just go do heaven, it was said, even if God forgives him. He's got to make amends for the window.

How can anyone in Purgatory fix a window?

And who is the offended one when we are talking about sin--as we are--and not property rights?

Oh yes, it's God who is the only one who can be sinned against, so God is more than entitled to forgive whomever he wants without us interposing our legal insights and saying "No, you can't just wipe the slate clean. He's got to work it off!" Yes, God can wipe our slate clean and that's what the New Testament is all about.

[Simon_Templar]

Something like that. It's generally recognized that if one is truly sorry, he will make right the wrong that was committed. If he only says "Sorry," that's not probably real contrition.

But when we start hearing about working off sins before getting to heaven, "residual effects" of sin, and other such theories as that, we're out of the realm of the Bible and into philosophy.

A good way to see that this is the case is to think it through and see how lacking some of this is. For example, we were given the analogy of one who breaks a window. He can't just go do heaven, it was said, even if God forgives him. He's got to make amends for the window.

How can anyone in Purgatory fix a window?

And who is the offended one when we are talking about sin--as we are--and not property rights?

Oh yes, it's God who is the only one who can be sinned against, so God is more than entitled to forgive whomever he wants without us interposing our legal insights and saying "No, you can't just wipe the slate clean. He's got to work it off!" Yes, God can wipe our slate clean and that's what the New Testament is all about.
well, I think that there is something there, more than many protestant christians think of, or believe.

For example, its occured that someone like a murderer has been converted while in jail waiting for execution etc.

Then, suddenly there is a big stirring in the christian community thinking that their sentance should be commuted because, hey, they are forgiven right?

I have no trouble believing that said person was forgiven and received salvation. However, I also believe that it would unjust in God's eyes not to execute the sentance of justice upon them.

So I think there is something to the idea that there are temporal consequences of sin which do not simply go away when your sins are forgiven by God. I think that is required by Justice.

That, of course, does not necessarily mean that the temporal consequences of sin must be payed off in purgatory... but its something worth considering.

[Albion]

well, I think that there is something there, more than many protestant christians think of, or believe.

For example, its occured that someone like a murderer has been converted while in jail waiting for execution etc.

Then, suddenly there is a big stirring in the christian community thinking that their sentance should be commuted because, hey, they are forgiven right?

I have no trouble believing that said person was forgiven and received salvation. However, I also believe that it would unjust in God's eyes not to execute the sentance of justice upon them.

But that's just the point of Jesus and the Cross. If we apply human standards of justice, an eye for an eye, etc. none of us is worthy of salvation. It is only because Jesus took our guilt upon himself that we have the prospect of heaven.

So if he did that, why do people want to whittle it away and say that well, we still aren't good enough to go heaven, we still have to go through some temporary version of hell...and THEN, when we've paid the debt that I'm saying Jesus already paid, then we "deserve" it? No, that is an inversion of the message of the Gospel, even if well intended.

[Simon_Templar]

But that's just the point of Jesus and the Cross. If we apply human standards of justice, an eye for an eye, etc. none of us is worthy of salvation. It is only because Jesus took our guilt upon himself that we have the prospect of heaven.

So if he did that, why do people want to whittle it away and say that well, we still aren't good enough to go heaven, we still have to go through some temporary version of hell...and THEN, when we've paid the debt that I'm saying Jesus already paid, then we "deserve" it? No, that is an inversion of the message of the Gospel, even if well intended.
so do you think that criminals should have their sentance remitted when they convert?

[Albion]

so do you think that criminals should have their sentance remitted when they convert?

Sorry. I thought that this was intended as an analogy to salvation, purgatory, etc.

But as a question standing alone, no, I don't. But I do think that it ought to be taken into account by parole boards or governors who give out commutations, along with every other factor.

Now, does that have any application to what God does? No, none.

[Simon_Templar]

Sorry. I thought that this was intended as an analogy to salvation, purgatory, etc.

But as a question standing alone, no, I don't. But I do think that it ought to be taken into account by parole boards or governors who give out commutations, along with every other factor.

Now, does that have any application to what God does? No, none.
it has application to justice.

Justice is about the victim receiving recompense. That is a very biblical principle.

When Cain killed Abel, God's primary concern was that Abel's blood called out for justice.

Abel deserved Justice. There is no way that Cain could make resitution to Abel since he was dead, thus Justice for Abel fell to God.

God established governments to give out temporal justice to people.
Does the fact that a person is forgiven their debt to God mean that God automatically removes their debt to their victims?

Honestly I'm more just thinking outloud at this point, not really trying to prove a point or anything.

[Albion]

it has application to justice.

The point of the Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ is that ordinary rules of justice were set aside--to our benefit.

Justice is about the victim receiving recompense. That is a very biblical principle.

That is a very OLD TESTAMENT principle. Don't make the work of Jesus insignificant.

When Cain killed Abel, God's primary concern was that Abel's blood called out for justice.

Abel deserved Justice. There is no way that Cain could make resitution to Abel since he was dead, thus Justice for Abel fell to God.

We all deserve justice of the sort you are outlining. If it were not for the Cross, that's what we'd get for our sins.

Thank God that he has been gracious to send his only son to suffer and die for us, taking the sins of the world upon himself in the greatest act of recompense that is possible. With the Gospel, we live; without the Cross we are stuck with the justice of the Law.

God established governments to give out temporal justice to people.

And they are to do this. It has nothing to do with our salvation.

Does the fact that a person is forgiven their debt to God mean that God automatically removes their debt to their victims?

And I ask you again...how can a soul in purgatory make recompense to a person he's wronged on Earth? All that his status amounts to after this life has ended is between God and himself. He cannot reach back into this life and repair the window (to return to the example that was given earlier).

[nestoj]

IN other words, what if you die before you received absolvance from minor sins...?

You are not repentent because you either did not have to time to repent, or perhaps didnt see it as an offense?

Does the Lord purify you?
And thus allows you forgiveness of your offenses left without confession, or how would you explain the process?

Do you believe in a cleansing process which allows us into Heaven after the process is finished?
There is no need for any special explanation. Consider it this way:

Christ appointed Apostles
Apostles appointed Bishops
Bishops appointed Presbyters

If Presbyters can give absolution of sins - then the Lord can do so much more (actually, can do anything, but that’s not the point) and can do it instantly without the need for some special circumstances. Now, for whom he does this and for whom He doesn't, that is His, but He is merciful beyond our understanding and holds all in his hands (I’ve always wondered why you call him Almighty and we have translation that is like “Alholder” – one that holds all in his hands but that’s another topic?), so there is hope. Also, I don’t know what all is happening to a person when she is given this ultimate forgiveness of sins, but I certainly hope to find out for my self.

nestoj
God helps

[zhilan]

The approach to the Eucharist and Confession is one of the big differences between RCC and EO and it's been a struggle for me shake the old mindset. But it really helped/shook me when my priest told me that it was my own pride keeping me away and it prideful of me to think that I could decide myself if I was worthy and even more to ever think that I am worthy. We are NEVER worthy to receive Christ and there is no such thing as a state of grace. We are always sinners and it is by God's grace that we can receive Him. He also asked me if, when I did something that upset my parents if it would make our relationship better if I went and sat in my room and refused to eat with them. I should ask forgiveness AND eat with them when they offer me food.

[WarriorAngel]

The point of the Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ is that ordinary rules of justice were set aside--to our benefit.



That is a very OLD TESTAMENT principle. Don't make the work of Jesus insignificant.



We all deserve justice of the sort you are outlining. If it were not for the Cross, that's what we'd get for our sins.

Thank God that he has been gracious to send his only son to suffer and die for us, taking the sins of the world upon himself in the greatest act of recompense that is possible. With the Gospel, we live; without the Cross we are stuck with the justice of the Law.



And they are to do this. It has nothing to do with our salvation.



And I ask you again...how can a soul in purgatory make recompense to a person he's wronged on Earth? All that his status amounts to after this life has ended is between God and himself. He cannot reach back into this life and repair the window (to return to the example that was given earlier).

Define the work of Christ.

WE see Him as dismissing our own works, which will be manifest in the last judgement.

Why does He judge if He did the work and we have nothing to do?

Yes, He made it possible that if we repent and do penance then He will forgive us... yes He was the final sacrifice to atone for sins because no one else could. Animal oblations would not satisfy the sinful atonement.

But He never said we had nothing to do.

In fact He inspired His Apostles to teach us further what to do.

Tradition tells us that there is atonement and scriptures tell us.

What does it mean that we are forgiven again in the next life?

How can we not be forgiven in this life or the next for blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

IF we didnt have to seek forgivness of our sins? Again?


The approach to the Eucharist and Confession is one of the big differences between RCC and EO and it's been a struggle for me shake the old mindset. But it really helped/shook me when my priest told me that it was my own pride keeping me away and it prideful of me to think that I could decide myself if I was worthy and even more to ever think that I am worthy. We are NEVER worthy to receive Christ and there is no such thing as a state of grace. We are always sinners and it is by God's grace that we can receive Him. He also asked me if, when I did something that upset my parents if it would make our relationship better if I went and sat in my room and refused to eat with them. I should ask forgiveness AND eat with them when they offer me food.

DID I say we were ever worthy. ..? :scratch:

Why was confession installed and the Apostles and ECF's warn us to not recieve unworthily? :scratch:

Grave offenses are the culprit.

[Albion]

Define the work of Christ.

You don't know? He came that we might have life. I wouldn't think this would be a matter of disagreement on a Christian forum.

Why does He judge if He did the work and we have nothing to do?

He judges because not everyone will be saved. No one said the first thing about us having " nothing to do."

Yes, He made it possible that if we repent and do penance then He will forgive us.

I can't find that line anywhere in scripture. I know it's your own slant on the subject, because you've said it before, but nothing in scripture says that.

yes He was the final sacrifice to atone for sins because no one else could. Animal oblations would not satisfy the sinful atonement.

But He never said we had nothing to do.

Nor did I or anyone else around here.

It's very hard for anyone to understand the plan of salvation so long as he/she insists upon making these two concepts into one (which the Bible does not do): 1) we are called to do good works, 2) these works are what save us, at least in part.

As a proposition, that construct is a non sequitur.

[eoe]

This thread has really demonstrated the difference in western and eastern theology.

Amazing how juridical the west is.

[Albion]

This thread has really demonstrated the difference in western and eastern theology.

Amazing how juridical the west is.

Or we could call it Biblical.

[zhilan]

This thread has really demonstrated the difference in western and eastern theology.

Amazing how juridical the west is.
Exactly.

WA, in the EARLY church the only reason one wouldn't receive is if they had murdered, committed adultery, or apostatized. It was not until the middle ages that this intense tying of confession and communion came about. Remember we don't believe in Mortal Sin, so it's a different perspective. But how is it possible to ever be in a State of Grace? But as I said, this is something that is still a struggle for me, so probably someone else can explain it better.

Oh, one thing though, this is key, in the Orthodox church we always confess to our Spiritual Father, so he knows what's going on in our life. If for some reason we should not take Communion then he would say, but it is the priest's responsibility to Guard the Challace rather than our right to decide on our own if we are worthy. And so I do know have the right, in my own spiritual weakness, to judge my own soul and thus I should approach with fear and faith. Also bear in mind that most Orthodox are confessing at least once a month anyway. If you go 3 weeks without receiving you excommunicate yourself (thus you must go to confession).

[WarriorAngel]

You don't know? He came that we might have life. I wouldn't think this would be a matter of disagreement on a Christian forum.



He judges because not everyone will be saved. No one said the first thing about us having " nothing to do."



I can't find that line anywhere in scripture. I know it's your own slant on the subject, because you've said it before, but nothing in scripture says that.



Nor did I or anyone else around here.

It's very hard for anyone to understand the plan of salvation so long as he/she insists upon making these two concepts into one (which the Bible does not do): 1) we are called to do good works, 2) these works are what save us, at least in part.

As a proposition, that construct is a non sequitur.

1 Corinthians 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=3&l=15&f=s#x)
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

The point... even good men will have sins to account for, and their sinful works will be burned up...but they themselves shall be saved. By fire.

Exactly.

WA, in the EARLY church the only reason one wouldn't receive is if they had murdered, committed adultery, or apostatized. It was not until the middle ages that this intense tying of confession and communion came about. Remember we don't believe in Mortal Sin, so it's a different perspective. But how is it possible to ever be in a State of Grace? But as I said, this is something that is still a struggle for me, so probably someone else can explain it better.

Oh, one thing though, this is key, in the Orthodox church we always confess to our Spiritual Father, so he knows what's going on in our life. If for some reason we should not take Communion then he would say, but it is the priest's responsibility to Guard the Challace rather than our right to decide on our own if we are worthy. And so I do know have the right, in my own spiritual weakness, to judge my own soul and thus I should approach with fear and faith. Also bear in mind that most Orthodox are confessing at least once a month anyway. If you go 3 weeks without receiving you excommunicate yourself (thus you must go to confession).


1 Corinthians 11 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=11&l=27&f=s#x)

27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

31 But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, [another reference to purgatory I would believe!]that we be not condemned with this world. 33 Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.

This speaks of being lukewarm [sleeps] or apathetic to receiving the Lord.
So this is not necesarily only about murderers...etc.

Also prooving themselves means to proove themselves worthy, which has a strong possible attachment to confession prior to receiving.

In the early Church it was a common thing to receive confession before going to Mass....each week.

[zhilan]

WA, I don't see how it's worth arguing about. You say in the old church confession was tied to communion. I say it was not. I don't have the documents to present you here. And really, I don't care at all if you go to confession before communion every time and think you can be in a State of Grace. If that works for you that's great. I will strive to follow what my Spiritual Father, who knows all my sins and struggles and has what's best for my soul at heart, has to say.

[Albion]

1 Corinthians 3 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=3&l=15&f=s#x)
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
It's an analogy, just like the references to metal, hay and stubble, WA.

Then too, the passage is clearly speaking of the second coming and the end of the world. That's the "day" of the Lord, not Purgatory which supposedly exists now for other people.


The point... even good men will have sins to account for, and their sinful works will be burned up...but they themselves shall be saved. By fire.

Yes, your church teaches that those who are alive when Christ returns will experience much suffering at that end time which will obviate any need for further atonement. But nothing in the passage deals with temporal punishment in the afterlife. My church doesn't take an explicit stand one way or the other concerning the events of the end times. The saved will be rewarded according to their actions, by the way, but salvation is still by faith.