Predestination?

[Secundulus]

Does anyone have any thoughts concerning the belief in the pre-destination of the Saints?

St. Augustine spoke of it http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1512.htm

and Thomas Aquinas spoke of it http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

John Calvin spoke of it also but I assume we would not want to consider his teachings on this forum. Also, he derived most of what he said from St. Augustine.

I am not entirely decided on the issue but am leaning towards thinking it is true based upon what I see all around me.

[WarriorAngel]

This is the understanding I have.

It is not predestination, but that God views our lives as if He is looking at a ruler. HE sees from beginning to end, & He can see all our choices. He is outside of time.

Free Will cannot be thrown out, so He will give us graces as we ask in our time. But He already knows that we will ask.

Hard to explain, but God doesn't stop us, He just already knows us.

Make sense?

[SeraphimSarov]

Predestination? Absolutely not. That leads to one thing as far as I'm concerned...

[xristos.anesti]

Many years.

I do not think that it is something the East has voiced much opinion.

So to use good old verbatim - we have no such custom nor the Churches of God.

Lord have mercy.

[Secundulus]

Many years.

I do not think that it is something the East has voiced much opinion.

So to use good old verbatim - we have no such custom nor the Churches of God.

Lord have mercy.

Maybe this highlights the Western Church's historic desire to understand and explain everything rationally as contrasted to the East's more mystical approach.

[RadixLecti]

It is important not to confuse predestination with Calvinism. Predestination was a belief of the ancient church. St. Augustine wrote a little bit about it.
I've always heard that predestination was made available to someone through the sacrament of baptism. That is a little confusing though.

[Secundulus]

It is important not to confuse predestination with Calvinism. Predestination was a belief of the ancient church. St. Augustine wrote a little bit about it.
I've always heard that predestination was made available to someone through the sacrament of baptism. That is a little confusing though.

Thomas Aquinas also wrote extensively on it as I provided in the link above. He did not view it as an issue of God knowing whether or not we would accept him are not, but a pre-decision from God before our existence on whether he would save us or not.

Thomas Aquinas specifically said that some were destined to be saved and some were destined not to be saved. Those who were predestined not to be saved were not predestined to be damned, but were instead invested with what he called invincible ignorance. That would prevent them from ever accepting the gospel. Having not accepted the gospel, at the final judgment they would be judged on their own merits, without consideration for the sacrifice of Christ, and would therefore be damned.

The reason I ask this question is, because in respect to the history of the Church, it makes much sense. Christ's incarnation came at a specific time in a specific place and throughout the history of much of the last 2000 years, knowledge of him was limited to a select group of people.

For instance, for a least 1500 years, knowledge of Christ was not available to anyone in the Western Hemisphere. If they had no knowledge of Christ, then how could they be saved?

Paul said that all had the knowledge of God written on their hearts. But he also said that nobody was without sin and all had need for the sacrifice of Christ. So given that we know that many people for a long time had no opportunity to know the gospel of Christ, I can see only three options.

1. Predestination.
2. Universalism.
3. Something else I have not thought of.

[Albion]

This is the understanding I have.

It is not predestination, but that God views our lives as if He is looking at a ruler. HE sees from beginning to end, & He can see all our choices. He is outside of time.

That's foreknowledge, not predestination.

[Albion]

Thomas Aquinas specifically said that some were destined to be saved and some were destined not to be saved. Those who were predestined not to be saved were not predestined to be damned, but were instead invested with what he called invincible ignorance. That would prevent them from ever accepting the gospel. Having not accepted the gospel, at the final judgment they would be judged on their own merits, without consideration for the sacrifice of Christ, and would therefore be damned.

Which, for those who say that they don't want to consider Calvin's views, is pretty much what he said also. I agree that he had some additional considerations, but the main point is agreed to by both, and Calvin did refer to those Churchmen who had believed in predestination before him. It's not as though he started from nothing.

[xristos.anesti]

Maybe this highlights the Western Church's historic desire to understand and explain everything rationally as contrasted to the East's more mystical approach.

And that would be a fairly true statement.

[karen freeinchristman]

This is the understanding I have.

It is not predestination, but that God views our lives as if He is looking at a ruler. HE sees from beginning to end, & He can see all our choices. He is outside of time.

Free Will cannot be thrown out, so He will give us graces as we ask in our time. But He already knows that we will ask.

Hard to explain, but God doesn't stop us, He just already knows us.

Make sense?


That does make sense! That is the understanding I have, too. :)

[Albion]

That does make sense! That is the understanding I have, too. :)

It makes sense as a theory about how God operates; it just isn't Predestination.

[a_ntv]

Does anyone have any thoughts concerning the belief in the pre-destination of the Saints?

St. Augustine spoke of it.....

If you know a little St Augustine, you know that he places God OUT from Our Time.

God belongs to the Eternity (that doeanot mean endless), where the past is the future and the future is the past.

God cannot be ruled by Our Time: for Him it is simply meaningless to say before or after.

Predestination is an idea that belongs to Our Time, not to God's Time.

The only contact point between Our Time, and God's Time (the Eternity) is the very present: that is the reason because it is so important to be NOW in grace of God

[Albion]

If you know a little St Augustine, you know that he places God OUT from Our Time.

God belongs to the Eternity (that doeanot mean endless), where the past is the future and the future is the past.

God cannot be ruled by Our Time: for Him it is simply meaningless to say before or after.

Predestination is an idea that belongs to Our Time, not to God's Time.

The only contact point between Our Time, and God's Time (the Eternity) is the very present: that is the reason because it is so important to be NOW in grace of God

None of which means that God cannot have decided before Adam which of us will receive the grace that will lead us to faith. None of it.

[Simon_Templar]

I don't think the only two options are predestination or universalism at all.

One teaching that has always remained the same in christianity, until after the reformation, was the idea that the involvement of the human will in salvation was necessary.

Its only after the reformation, and its not even true of most of the main reformers, that you ever find the idea that salvation was completely independant of human will.


While it is in my nature to follow the western passion for figuring things out and reasoning things out, I also recognize the truth that there are some things which are simply beyond finite logic. Honestly this is one of them.

The scriptures, in my opinion, clearly present BOTH predestination AND Free will as truths and I think the only true doctrine is the one that accepts them both working together in a mystery.

I also think that when you dig down to the heart of most tradition, including Augustine and Aquinas, that is what you find.

[Simon_Templar]

Well it would somewhat depend on what you mean by this.

Did God decide, Tom Smith at 195 Oak St. is not going to receive grace...

Or..

Did God decide, those who refuse to believe will not receive grace...

[Secundulus]

That does make sense! That is the understanding I have, too. :)

My problem is that it doesn't make sense from the perspective of human history.

It seems like a good theory when you are talking to someone about Christianity in the present. But how do you account for everyone else, like the Indians in America who died before 1492?

We say that God offers salvation to all. But we also say that salvation comes only through Christ.

I don't really know for certain one way or the other. But I don't like inconsistancies and to say That God desires the salvation of all and that you have to know Christ for salvation is an inconsistancy when there have clearly been people in the past without that opportunity.

The only alternative I can think of is universalism. Does anybody have any other ideas?

[Albion]

I don't think the only two options are predestination or universalism at all.

I agree with that.

One teaching that has always remained the same in christianity, until after the reformation, was the idea that the involvement of the human will in salvation was necessary.

I can't agree with that although it was the majority belief.

Its only after the reformation, and its not even true of most of the main reformers, that you ever find the idea that salvation was completely independant of human will.

Well, Luther and Calvin did and Cranmer incorporated lots of Calvin in the Articles of Religion in England, so who did you have in mind as not "main reformers?"


While it is in my nature to follow the western passion for figuring things out and reasoning things out, I also recognize the truth that there are some things which are simply beyond finite logic. Honestly this is one of them.

That's very sound.


The scriptures, in my opinion, clearly present BOTH predestination AND Free will as truths and I think the only true doctrine is the one that accepts them both working together in a mystery.

Excellent point! One that deserves to be said everytime anyone begins by saying that one of these views is the only one possible.

[a_ntv]

None of which means that God cannot have decided before Adam which of us will receive the grace that will lead us to faith. None of it.

The point is that the before in your sentence is tipical of Our Time only.

God's Time is not flowing as Our Time.

God is over Our Time.

If God is subject to the time, than God changes: that is impossible.

Before Adam, After Adam, Now, in the 2100: God is always the same, OVER Our Time.

We are in the time, so we shall think in terms of before, later, ...
For Gos everything is like a moment. There is not a before and a later.

Plase read St Agustine (the Confessios (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/110111.htm)book 11)
13. Those who say these things do not as yet understand You, O Thou Wisdom of God, Thou light of souls; not as yet do they understand how these things be made which are made by and in You. They even endeavour to comprehend things eternal; but as yet their heart flies about in the past and future motions of things, and is still wavering. Who shall hold it and fix it, that it may rest a little, and by degrees catch the glory of that everstanding eternity, and compare it with the times which never stand, and see that it is incomparable; and that a long time cannot become long, save from the many motions that pass by, which cannot at the same instant be prolonged; but that in the Eternal nothing passes away, but that the whole is present; but no time is wholly present; and let him see that all time past is forced on by the future, and that all the future follows from the past, and that all, both past and future, is created and issues from that which is always present? Who will hold the heart of man, that it may stand still, and see how the still-standing eternity, itself neither future nor past, utters the times future and past? Can my hand accomplish this, or the hand of my mouth by persuasion bring about a thing so great?

[Simon_Templar]

Well, Luther and Calvin did and Cranmer incorporated lots of Calvin in the Articles of Religion in England, so who did you have in mind as not "main reformers?"

Well, we might disagree over exactly what constitutes involvement of the human will :).

For example, Luther, Calvin, and Cranmer, would all agree that there is no true justification without sanctification.

This creates an interesting logical situation. Justification was said to be forensic, which would make it independant of human will.. however, it can't be real unless it is followed by sanctification which is the product of the cooperation of the human will with the divine will.


You can't truly have justification without sanctification, and you can't have sanctification without justification...Is there really a difference between the Two?

The logical formula I think would look something like this...

If A, then B
If B then A..
If not B then not A
If not A then not B
Therefore
A = B


but thats a whole different conversation :)

[Simon_Templar]

My problem is that it doesn't make sense from the perspective of human history.

It seems like a good theory when you are talking to someone about Christianity in the present. But how do you account for everyone else, like the Indians in America who died before 1492?

We say that God offers salvation to all. But we also say that salvation comes only through Christ.

I don't really know for certain one way or the other. But I don't like inconsistancies and to say That God desires the salvation of all and that you have to know Christ for salvation is an inconsistancy when there have clearly been people in the past without that opportunity.

The only alternative I can think of is universalism. Does anybody have any other ideas?
Yes,

look at Roman's 1, and consider the pre-gospel era as well.

The scriptures teach us that people always and everywhere have been saved by faith. Abraham was saved by faith nearly 2000 years before Jesus died on the cross. He didn't know the name of Jesus, all he knew was that God would save him.

What Paul tells us in Romans 1 is that ALL people regardless of time or place have had the opportunity to know the truth of God INCLUDING even the invisible attributes of his nature, from the creation itself, and because God has revealed that truth within their hearts.

Consider that all revelation of God comes through the Son of God. This does not necessarily mean JUST through his incarnation in Judea. No man has seen the Father except the Son.. thus the God that was seen by the Patriarchs in the Old Testament, the revelation of God that they had was not the Father, but the Son.

Likewise when people receive a revelation of God who have not heard the gospel, they are seeing the Son revealed.

One of the most amazing things through out the history of mission work is that when missionaries go into remote cultures who have never heard the gospels or the oracles of God, they find people who are ready to convert, they find people who have almost literally been waiting for a missionary to show up.

It isn't the case with every culture necessarily, but if you look at the celts, for example, the converted whole sale to christianity largely because their own religion contained many similar ideas and many of them, even many of their learned caste saw christianity as a fulfillment of their own knowledge and religion.

Christ can reveal himself to people without the benefit of scripture, or the gospel, or missionaries and he can give grace to whomever he desires.
those things make the job easier, and they bring a greater power with them.

Its kind of like math. You can learn math just from studying nature because its very principles are built right in to creation. However, its a lot easier if you have a text book. Its a lot easier to avoid mistakes, and to get a pure understanding.

Thats why God says that he judges people according to the light that they were given.

[Albion]

Well, we might disagree over exactly what constitutes involvement of the human will :).

For example, Luther, Calvin, and Cranmer, would all agree that there is no true justification without sanctification.

This creates an interesting logical situation. Justification was said to be forensic, which would make it independant of human will.. however, it can't be real unless it is followed by sanctification which is the product of the cooperation of the human will with the divine will.


You can't truly have justification without sanctification, and you can't have sanctification without justification...Is there really a difference between the Two?

The logical formula I think would look something like this...

If A, then B
If B then A..
If not B then not A
If not A then not B
Therefore
A = B


but thats a whole different conversation :)


To answer your question straight out, yes, I do say that there is a difference between the two and that they thought so also.

[Albion]

The point is that the before in your sentence is tipical of Our Time only.

I disagree.

Before Adam, After Adam, Now, in the 2100: God is always the same, OVER Our Time.

So you're saying that there never was a time before Adam? ...since if Adam was created as the Bible says, then there was a before? There also were no days of creation as Genesis describes them becase they are given to us in an sequence. No, I consider all that just to be skirting the issue. God can very well have decided on the fate of each of us just as he said that it is not good for man to be alone, therefore Eve.

And although God is unchageable in some sense, we cannot take seriously that there is no before or after in anything he does. The Bible quashes that in the fact that, for instance, Adam was created for a future he then forfeited. That is not above time. What I can agree with is that God knows everything that will happen, but as pointed out before, that does not negate predestination.

[RadixLecti]

Yes,


Thats why God says that he judges people according to the light that they were given.

I'm interested. Do you have a reference for this?

[Colabomb]

I'm interested. Do you have a reference for this?

He is probably referring to this

Romans 2

12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

[WarriorAngel]

[/size]

That's foreknowledge, not predestination.

Exactly, because I do not believe we are predestined, but that Grace is for any that ask.

It is the free will to turn to God.

IMHO, all of mankind shall have grace dwelling ABOUT them, but it is the man who openly chooses to receive, that receives.

I would consider the verse .....

1 Timothy 2 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=61&ch=2&l=4&f=s#x)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

TO be truth and that HE wants all saved...
So He doesnt withhold from any, but some do not accept.

Knowing He wants all saved.... means we are the ones who choose to accept the invitation.

If you know a little St Augustine, you know that he places God OUT from Our Time.


:thumbsup:




My problem is that it doesn't make sense from the perspective of human history.


Since when has God made sense to our finite thinking? ;)

The point is that the before in your sentence is tipical of Our Time only.

God's Time is not flowing as Our Time.

God is over Our Time.

If God is subject to the time, than God changes: that is impossible.

Before Adam, After Adam, Now, in the 2100: God is always the same, OVER Our Time.

We are in the time, so we shall think in terms of before, later, ...
For Gos everything is like a moment. There is not a before and a later.

Plase read St Agustine (the Confessios (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/110111.htm)book 11)
13. Those who say these things do not as yet understand You, O Thou Wisdom of God, Thou light of souls; not as yet do they understand how these things be made which are made by and in You. They even endeavour to comprehend things eternal; but as yet their heart flies about in the past and future motions of things, and is still wavering. Who shall hold it and fix it, that it may rest a little, and by degrees catch the glory of that everstanding eternity, and compare it with the times which never stand, and see that it is incomparable; and that a long time cannot become long, save from the many motions that pass by, which cannot at the same instant be prolonged; but that in the Eternal nothing passes away, but that the whole is present; but no time is wholly present; and let him see that all time past is forced on by the future, and that all the future follows from the past, and that all, both past and future, is created and issues from that which is always present? Who will hold the heart of man, that it may stand still, and see how the still-standing eternity, itself neither future nor past, utters the times future and past? Can my hand accomplish this, or the hand of my mouth by persuasion bring about a thing so great?




:thumbsup:

[Albion]

Exactly, because I do not believe we are predestined, but that Grace is for any that ask.

It is the free will to turn to God.

I'm glad we understand and agree about foreknowledge. It is not predestination. Thinking that it is has the effect of confusing discussions about predestination through misrepresenting what predestination is all about. This is true, regardless of whether one favors it or (as in your case) opposes it.


But foreknowledge also is not free will, nor does it favor free will over predestination.


Virtually every Christian takes for granted that God knows what will happen. That foreknowledge is compatible with both the free will position and also with the predestinarian position.

[Simon_Templar]

I'm interested. Do you have a reference for this?

The verses Cola mentioned are applicable, as they demonstrate that no knowledge of the oracles of God which contain the law are necessary for people to have lived as the law intended and in so doing kept the law.

However, I was more refering to the following examples

Luke 12:47,48

"47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."

and also

Acts 17:30-31

30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

This is Paul addressing the pagan greeks telling them that in the times of ignorance before people received the gospel, God was indulgent because of their ignorance. However, once the gospel was preached among them, they had been called to repentance.

Now, a couple of points. The first passage I quoted clearly shows that if a person who is ignorant of God's will does wrong they will still be punished. However, their punnishment will be less than a person who knew God's will and still did wrong.

This is also reflected by Paul when he said of himself, that he obtained mercy for his persecution of Christ because he did it ignorantly.

Romans, including the verses Cola cited, show clearly that all men have enough basic revelation of God to know something about him, and to know the basics of right and wrong. Those who do right based upon that basic revelation are counted as though they received and kept God's law.

Those who do wrong based upon that revelation are still punnished, but their punnishment is less than someone who knew better, but still did wrong.

[Mary of Bethany]

It seems to me that the belief of Predestination follows from the idea of Total Depravity. If we are totally depraved and can do nothing in response to God's grace offered to us, then God must do the choosing for us.

Would those of you who believe in Predestination agree with that, or not? :scratch:

Mary

[Colabomb]

It seems to me that the belief of Predestination follows from the idea of Total Depravity. If we are totally depraved and can do nothing in response to God's grace offered to us, then God must do the choosing for us.

Would those of you who believe in Predestination agree with that, or not? :scratch:

Mary

I believe in Total Depravity yet not Predestination as understood by augustine and the Calvinists.

I believe that we are incapable of Repentance on our own, as we are dead in sin. However, God in His Grace sees fit to offer us Grace and the ability to make a choice, that would otherwise be impossible.

What is impossible with man, is Possible with God. I may not be able to repent on my own will, but with the help of God, i may indeed make a choice dependant on his Grace and mercy.

[Albion]

It seems to me that the belief of Predestination follows from the idea of Total Depravity. If we are totally depraved and can do nothing in response to God's grace offered to us, then God must do the choosing for us.

Would those of you who believe in Predestination agree with that, or not? :scratch:

Mary


Yes, I think you are correct in that statement about it.

[a_ntv]

And although God is unchageable in some sense, we cannot take seriously that there is no before or after in anything he does. The Bible quashes that in the fact that, for instance, Adam was created for a future he then forfeited. That is not above time.

Well, the excerp of that I've underlined is very problematic.

This issue have been longly debated by the Father of the Churches against the pagan: usually the question was placed as "What God did before creating the world ?"

Actually if there is a before and a after in anything God does, this means that God is subected to the time he too: ok, He can know tha past and the future, but He would be NO more onnipotent, because the past remains the past, and the future remain the future: that would be a limitation for God, and so it is not possible.

The Bible uses tempral adverbs about God, but that is only because WE need them, because we, the Bible's readers, are subject to the Time.

So the standard pagan question "What God did before creating the world ?" was answered by the Father of the Church (including St Agustine, saying that before the creation of the world there was NO TIME, so the question itself is meaningless.

God is not simply a super-man who knows the future and the past: God is over the time and He cannot be described with our standards.

[Secundulus]

It seems to me that the belief of Predestination follows from the idea of Total Depravity. If we are totally depraved and can do nothing in response to God's grace offered to us, then God must do the choosing for us.

Would those of you who believe in Predestination agree with that, or not? :scratch:

Mary

I don't think that total depravity is necessary.

What if that grace is not offered to all. That was what Thomas Aquinas concluded.

Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.
Summa Theologica (http://www.newadvent.org/summa)

[Albion]

God can be outside time without us concluding that events don't come before or after each other.

[Simon_Templar]

God can be outside time without us concluding that events don't come before or after each other.
The problem on this conversation is that it is trying to wrap the mind around something that is outside of human conception.

You are arguing based on the human perception that events are ordered. This is the essense of time. One thing happens after another, there is before, there is after.

How do we know that this is accurate of God's existence? perhaps all times for him are now, and everything quite literally is happening at once.

Maybe from God's perspective Adam is still in the garden and the trumpets of revelation are blowing... We simply don't know and we can barely imagine.

Even the conjecture that all things happen at once relies upon a human conception of time for its idea of "at once" or "at the same time".

The truth is that God's vision of time, or relationship to time could be something we can't even conceive of.

[Simon_Templar]

Predestination does not necessarily follow total depravity either.

I, for instance, believe that no one can come to God unless he calls them and offers them grace. However, once a person has been offered grace, that in itself is an opening of the eyes, to see which enables man to choose.

The idea that a man can not choose God until God calls him, does not demand that once chosen, said man can not choose not to choose God.

[Albion]

Predestination does not necessarily follow total depravity either.

I, for instance, believe that no one can come to God unless he calls them and offers them grace. However, once a person has been offered grace, that in itself is an opening of the eyes, to see which enables man to choose.

The idea that a man can not choose God until God calls him, does not demand that once chosen, said man can not choose not to choose God.

That's right.

Total depravity IS the state of man before he is touched by God, however he does it. Predestinarians begin their explanation there, but it is a point on which all Christians should be easily in agreement IMO. Of course, there are free will Christians who do NOT believe that we are totally depraved, theologically speaking, as a result of sin and unable to turn to God on our own.

[Mary of Bethany]

Orthodox do not believe in total depravity.

Mary

[Simon_Templar]

Orthodox do not believe in total depravity.

Mary
Do Orthodox believe that man is capable of coming to God of his own accord without God's first calling him and/or convicting him by the Holy Spirit?

[Mary of Bethany]

Hmmm . . . . we believe that God's Image (Icon) that is within every human being was marred, but not completely destroyed by the Fall. That allows us to respond to His Grace upon us.

There is nothing we can do that comes before what God has already done for us, so I guess the answer to your question is "no", because God's Grace is already present in us. We are free to respond. No total depravity.

Does that make sense?

Mary

[Simon_Templar]

Hmmm . . . . we believe that God's Image (Icon) that is within every human being was marred, but not completely destroyed by the Fall. That allows us to respond to His Grace upon us.

There is nothing we can do that comes before what God has already done for us, so I guess the answer to your question is "no", because God's Grace is already present in us. We are free to respond. No total depravity.

Does that make sense?

Mary
yep, its an interesting view.

Its not really all that different from the western view. Most in the west believe that all mankind has 'common grace' or some variation there upon, which is similar to the idea that the image of God within us was not completely removed.

The main difference would be that in the west, that common grace which God gives to all mankind, most would tend to believe is not the same as grace which calls us to repentance.
also, in the west most would believe that the common grace does not enable mankind to comprehend God or the things of God.

[Iosias]

Article 17 of the Articles of Religion:

XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby, before the foundations of the world were laid, He hath constantly decreed by His counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom He hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by His Spirit working in due season; they through grace obey the calling; they be justified freely; they be made sons of God by adoption; they be made like the image of His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ; they walk religiously in good works; and at length by God's mercy they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination and our Election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons and such as feeling in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh and their earthly members and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: so for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the devil doth thrust them either into desperation or into wretchlessness of most unclean living no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise as they be generally set forth in Holy Scripture; and in our doings that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly declared unto us in the word of God.

The Lambeth Articles of 1595
1. God from eternity has predestined some men to life, and reprobated some.
2. The moving and efficient cause of predestination to life is not the foreseeing of faith or of perseverance of good works or of anything innate in the person of the predestined, but only the will of the good pleasure of God.
3. There is a determined and certain number of predestined, which cannot be increased or diminished.
4. Those not predestined to salvation are inevitably condemned on account of their sins.
5. A true, lively, and justifying faith, and the sanctifying Spirit of God, is not lost nor does it pass away either finally or totally in the elect.
6. The truly faithful man – that is, one endowed with justifying faith – is sure by full assurance of faith of the remission of his sins and his eternal salvation through Christ.
7. Saving grace is not granted, in not made common, is not ceded to all men, by which they may be saved, if they wish.
8. No one can come to Christ unless it be granted to him, and unless the Father draws him: and all men are not drawn by the Father to come to the Son.
9. It is not in the will or the power of each and every man to be saved.