The Arrogance of the Pope

[O.F.F.]

Latest Headlines from OneNewsNow.com:

In a document released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the pope said Christian communities outside Catholicism were not full churches. The 16-page document described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but said they suffered from a "wound" since they do not recognize the primacy of the pope. . .The document also reiterated church teaching that the Roman Catholic Church alone is the mediator of salvation, though it said other beliefs can be its "instrument." The Vatican said the document was aimed at clearing up "confusion and doubt" about the Catholic Church's relationship with other faiths.

Allie Martin
OneNewsNow.com
July 13, 2007

For the full story click here: The Arrogance of the Pope (http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/07/methodist_pastor_christians_sh.php)

So, what are your thoughts about this?

While I was raised Catholic, as I matured in the grace and knowledge of true Christianity, I left Catholicism. After hearing this news, I am grateful to God that I did.

I realized that "denominationalism" is of man, but Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior of my life. I never learned this from the Roman Catholic Church. And, I am now a non-denominational saint -- a born-again, blood-bought, bible-believing, child of the living God!

Those are my thoughts, what say you?

[NordicLutheran]

I think that the Rome is totally and utterly full of itself. If the Roman Catholic Church was really the true and only holy apostolic church then why would a a good handful of it's clergy be involved with pedophilia and homosexuality? A true church would not have so many archdioses going bankrupt over the raping of young boys. :(

[LivingWordUnity]

The Pope was reaffirming what has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church.

In other words, the Pope is Catholic.

The real arrogance is people who believe that they can just start their own church and do a better job of starting a church than Jesus did.

It's very hypocritical that a lot of Protestants have been calling the Pope the anti-Christ since Protestantism began in 1517, but now all of a sudden they act like their feelings are hurt because the Pope reaffirms the Catholic teaching that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

Jesus only founded one Church, therefore, only one Church can logically be the one that he founded.

Do a process of elimination. See who founded each Protestant denomination, and instantly they all get eliminated from being that Church.

The people who are criticizing the Pope are hypocrites who don't even care if what the Pope says is the truth or not. Check the history of who founded what and when instead of appealing to emotion.

How Old Is Your Church?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

[O.F.F.]

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

Sometimes, I don't know who is the most arrogant, the Pope or his "cultic" followers. No where in the universally accepted Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the Holy Bible) is there any mention of Jesus establishing the "Catholic" church or denomination.

Jesus established "the Church," which is the universal body of believers who became, and are becoming, "born-again" by faith in His finished work at Calvary, and not by works of human effort, which include the 'required' sacraments of Roman Catholicism.

Futhermore, the Holy Bible (as specified above) has no arrogant and egotistical mention of the "Roman Catholic Church alone as being the mediator of salvation."

Biblically, Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man, not the "cult" of Roman Catholicism (1 Timothy 2:5).

As such, He (Christ Jesus) is the ONLY mediator of SALVATION, for it comes by Him alone and NO OTHER SOURCE! (John 14:6)!

[plmarquette]

words are becoming confusing .....
arrogance and hate speech seem to mean ... anyone who disagrees or speaks the truth in love to those who are back slidden , who wish to remain so...

if we look at moses , jethro and the rulers of the congregation , the line of Aaron and his sons , we have a "type" of "one seat, one chair" ... and many did not like Moses ...

but God changed 1,999,998 people and kept Moses, didn't he ...

Is it not better to work on our own flaws (parable of the plank and the beam) than to attack our fellow "flawed" chrisitans ... for we all have skeletons in our proverbial closet , don't we ( 1 John 1.8-9 )

[O.F.F.]

Is it not better to work on our own flaws (parable of the plank and the beam) than to attack our fellow "flawed" chrisitans ... for we all have skeletons in our proverbial closet , don't we ( 1 John 1.8-9 )

I agree. So that means the Pope should have left his arrogant 'bones' in the closet.

P.S. Happy Birthday!

[Aibrean]

The President of the LCMS:

In response to a document approved by Pope Benedict XVI and released by the Vatican July 10 that says, in part, “ … other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and that only Roman Catholicism provides the true path to salvation,” Dr. Gerald B. Kieschnick, president of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, July 12 responded that this declaration, with which Lutherans and other Christian church bodies obviously disagree, is nothing new.
“Similar statements and perspectives precipitated the 16th century Reformation nearly 500 years ago,” Kieschnick said. “At that time Martin Luther said, 'Popes and councils can err.' Apparently that is still true today.”
Kieschnick explained that even 500 years ago, the church was defined in the simple words of the Lutheran Confessions by those whose faith in Christ precipitated the Reformation, such as:

“[The church] is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel” (Augsburg Confession Article VII).
“Thank God, [today] a child seven years old knows what the Church is, namely, the holy believers and lambs who hear the voice of their Shepherd. For the children pray thus: 'I believe in one holy Christian church'” (Smalcald Articles: Art. XII; Triglot, p. 499). Kieschnick concluded by saying, “We look forward to the continuation of our theological dialogues with Roman Catholic leaders in discussion of this very important matter and to strengthening our common witness on such matters as the sanctity of life.”

[plmarquette]

I agree. So that means the Pope should have left his arrogant 'bones' in the closet.

P.S. Happy Birthday!
many times people in the office may be some what lacking... but all authority is of God , who can and will use even some granola bars (fruits, flakes, nuts) as he used cyrus to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem for Nehemiah if we pray God's will

some times arrogance, meddling is a truth , or the truth, but the carnal christians do not want to hear it , for they have embraced the norms of society , rejecting the will of God

[LivingWordUnity]

I agree. So that means the Pope should have left his arrogant 'bones' in the closet.Take another look at the things that you said in your posts. You are not humble, so you shouldn't be accusing others of being arrogant.

By the way, do you think that Jesus was being arrogant for saying that He is the only way?

Jesus only founded one Church, so why wouldn't that one Church say that it's the only way to salvation since it's the only one that was founded by Jesus (God Himself)?

The difference between you and me is that you boast about yourself and how "wise" you believe that you were for leaving the Church, but I boast in Jesus and His oneness with the one true Church that was founded by Him.

I don't believe that I am smarter than the 2,000 years of Church fathers that came before me. I try to learn from their wisdom and from the many examples of saints. The saints are the fruits that the Catholic Church has produced in great numbers throughout every century since the Church began 2,000 years ago.

The graces that Jesus gave to His Church was not my doing, it was all the work of Jesus. And that's all that I boast about.

"One Lord, one faith, one Baptism." Eph 4:5

Peace

[Aibrean]

By the way, do you think that Jesus was being arrogant for saying that He is the only way?

Jesus only founded one Church, so why wouldn't that one Church say that it's the only way to salvation since it's the only one that was founded by Jesus (God Himself)?



Church isn't the way to salvation...Jesus is. You are contradicting yourself in your two sentences.

[LivingWordUnity]

Church isn't the way to salvation...Jesus is. You are contradicting yourself in your two sentences.Jesus and His Church are one. When Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus said "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting" (Acts 9:5).

Jesus and His Church are one just as the Father and Jesus are different persons of the divine Holy Trinity but one in being.

Jesus (God in the flesh) only founded one Church, and he founded it 2,000 years ago with Peter as the chief shepherd of the Church on earth. - Matt. 16:18-19 (cross reference with Isaiah 22:20-23)

"Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:11)

"that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. (John 17:21-23)

"One Lord, one faith, one Baptism" (Eph 4:5)

It goes like this:

Jesus put Peter in charge of the Church and gave all of His authority to him. (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:17).

The Holy Spirit was given to Peter and the other apostles (John 20:22-23).

But Jesus prayed specifically for Peter (Luke 22:32).

Jesus commanded the apostles to teach and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 28:19-20)

And in order for the apostles to preach to all nations, the apostles appointed successors (Acts 1:20)

The Holy Spirit was then passed on from the apostles to their successors (bishops) by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:18)

And as we will see, the Bible says that not all in the Church are in authority, and not all have the same gifts.

1 Corinthians Chapter 12
27: Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28: And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
29: Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30: Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

Romans Chapter 12
4: For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,

Romans Chapter 13
1: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2: Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Everything in the Bible is the truth. But not all of the truth is contained in the Bible (at least not explicitly).

John 20:30
“Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not written in this book”

John 21:25
"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."

When Jesus talks about "the seat of Moses", Jesus was making a reference to oral Tradition because the seat of Moses was not written anyplace in the Bible at that time.

Matthew 23:1-3
Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

And we see in the Bible that following "traditions of men" should not be more important to us than following the traditions that come from Jesus and were passed down from the apostles and their successors whether by word of mouth or by letter (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2)

And the Bible calls the Church, not the Bible, "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Why does the Bible call the Church and not the Bible the pillar and foundation of truth? The Bible gives us the answer:

2 Peter 1:20
"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation"

Jesus gives his divine promise that the gates of hell (or death) will never prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18). And Jesus also gives a divine promise that he will be with his Church always (Matt. 28:20).

The Bible tells us that if we have a disagreement that we should take it to the Church (Matt. 18:17).

It would not make sense to take something to a Church that is invisible. So, as we can see from scripture, Jesus intended for His Church to be very visible.

Luke 8:16
No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a vessel, or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, that those who enter may see the light.

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill can not be hidden.

Despite scandals which have been in the Church since the first scandal of Jesus being betrayed by Judas Iscariot and abandoned by the other apostles, the Catholic Church continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth just as Jesus had promised for His Church. (John 16:13)

The Catholic Church is Holy not because of sinful people in the Church but because Jesus is present in the Church through the 7 Sacraments which he instituted.

Despite the sinful people in the Church, the many saints in the Catholic Church have done a lot of good in the world over the centuries.

But the Church is a hospital for sinners, and the Sacraments are the medicine to help lead us to the cure so that we can be freed from the bondage of sin.

[Kotton]

Very well written explaination, LWU. Many see the report as a criticism of their groups, not realizing that what was said is a definning of words and organizations. The statement that Protestant groups are not 'churches' means they do not have the continuity that we find in Catholic and Orthodox faiths comming from the Apostolic Church. Would it surprise them to know there are several 'Churches' within the Catholic faith, and yet we are all of the same faith belief? Then we also find Rites within those Churches, and still all are in unity with the pope as leader of the Catholic Faith.

Kotton :wave:

[sheina]

Sometimes, I don't know who is the most arrogant, the Pope or his "cultic" followers. No where in the universally accepted Canon of Scripture (the 66 books of the Holy Bible) is there any mention of Jesus establishing the "Catholic" church or denomination.

Jesus established "the Church," which is the universal body of believers who became, and are becoming, "born-again" by faith in His finished work at Calvary, and not by works of human effort, which include the 'required' sacraments of Roman Catholicism.

Futhermore, the Holy Bible (as specified above) has no arrogant and egotistical mention of the "Roman Catholic Church alone as being the mediator of salvation."

Biblically, Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and man, not the "cult" of Roman Catholicism (1 Timothy 2:5).

As such, He (Christ Jesus) is the ONLY mediator of SALVATION, for it comes by Him alone and NO OTHER SOURCE! (John 14:6)!
:amen: :thumbsup: Jesus Christ didn't found the Roman Catholic Church in 33AD. The N.T. Church is founded on the truth of Peter's confession in Matthew 16:18 - "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God"--not on Peter himself--but on Christ, the chief cornerstone.

[PoliticalGuru]

"cultic"??? If you think the Pope is being arrogant in what he's saying, with all due respect I have 4 words for you: Look in a mirror.
From the Baltimore Catechism, which was and is in many areas still, the central textbook in teaching kids the faith in Catholic schools:

78. Who is the Saviour of all men?
The Saviour of all men is Jesus Christ.
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, bearing witness in his own time. (I Timothy 2:5-6)

79. What is the chief teaching of the Catholic Church about Jesus Christ?
The chief teaching of the Catholic Church about Jesus Christ is that He is God made man.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

Feel free to disagree that the Catholic Church is the one true and original Church established by Christ, but to call us a "cult" when the center of our Faith is Christ... that is a VERY poor choice of words my friend

[Aibrean]

I mean "church" in itself isn't the way to salvation (i.e. going to church and participating would be salvation by works which obviously doesn't happen). We are just on two wavelengths on what I meant by saying church as there are many connotations.

[kepha31]

The charge of "arrogance of the Pope" is based on ignorance and false media reports, and prejudiced remarks from ignorant ministers. Ignorant ministers make news, not the truth.

Instead of riding on the crest of public opinion, fuelled by the all-holy-infallible-catholic-hating media, I invite open minded Christians to view the official statement and teachings on this matter. Those frozen in prejudice will not bother, because it is not the facts they want, but to demonize the Church in her efforts to heal the wounds to unity. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...tiones_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)

The Catholic Church (CC) has the right to define who and what she is, the same as any church or non-church does. The CC is the oldest Church, a historical fact that is only contested by revisionists and other liars. According to the definition of Church by the Church, it must have certain constitutive elements in order to be a Church. Among them is Apostolic Succession (according to Catholic definition) and the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist. To reject even part of one is to compromise the other.

Ecclesial communities do not have Apostolic Succession, nor do they have Eucharist (Toda Sacrifice). Therefore they cannot be called a true church in the biblical, historical or theological sense, but define themselves as a church because they have the same right as the CC does. This is the problem. Same word, different definitions. If a group wants to call themselves a church, fine. But they cannot be a Church according to the Catholic definition. They have rejected the Catholic definition 400 years ago. It is a truth that the Pope pointed out, and no ecclesial community is going to claim they have Apostolic Succession or the Eucharist in the Catholic sense. They rejected those elements some 400 years ago. People are angry at the Pope because he has told a truth: that ecclesial communities cannot claim these constitutive elements. They don't want them and that is not the Pope's fault.

Stop believing the lies of the media that are plastered all over this forum. Here is the official unadulterated statement:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html)

There is nothing new in this recent statement (which no one has quoted directly from). It springs from the same teachings the Church has had for 2000 years. Developed for 2000 years, and condensed in the catechism, certain phrases had to be clarified and that is why the Pope made the recent statement he did. The CC has expanded her definition of herself to INCLUDE all baptized Christians, not exclude.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." 269 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=269) The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism 270 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=270) - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers. 271 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=817&FNoteNum=271)

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." 272 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=818&FNoteNum=272)

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" 273 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=273) are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." 274 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=274) Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=275) and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." 276 (http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/getnote.cfm?ParNum=819&FNoteNum=276)

The Catholic Church says those in these communities are our brothers and sisters.

They have "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.

The Catholic Church formally declares that “…Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation…”
This is the exact opposite to what sa…I mean the media want you to think. This has been explained to some in this forum and they have rejected every word of it and continue repeating the same hate speech. They would rather accept the gospel according to the Associated Press. Those who constantly bear false witness and willingly shut their eyes from the truth will remain in darkness. The post-reformation era is over. The CC is extending an olive branch. Division is a scandal to the Body of Christ. Don't believe the lies of the media.

[kepha31]

Jesus Christ didn't found the Roman Catholic Church in 33AD.
Then who did? Prove the Church was Protestant before Constantine was born using quotes from the early Christians.

[kepha31]

http://www.zenit.org/article-20219?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-20219?l=english)
Vatican Official: Ecumenism Needs Truth

Unity Council Hails Document on the Church
http://www.zenit.org/article-20158?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-20158?l=english)

Secretary Says It Is Ecumenically Useful

ROME, JULY 18, 2007 (Zenit.org (http://www.zenit.org/)).- To understand the recent document on the nature of the Church by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, one must harmonize apparently contradictory concepts, says Bishop Brian Farrell.

The secretary of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity said this in statements to ZENIT on the June 29 document "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church."

Bishop Farrell, a Legionary of Christ, noted that the media presentation of the document has not been complete.

"As often happens, theological complexity gets lost in the way the story unfolds, especially in the media," he said. "There is not just one, but a number of affirmations in this document, and they must all be taken together.

"The document cannot be reduced to saying: 'The Catholic Church claims to be the one true Church.' It also says: 'It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church.'"

[kepha31]

The Catholic Church says those in these communities are our brothers and sisters.
Look what we get in return.

[PreachersWife2004]

The CC can take its olive branch and put it back on the shelf.

I've no desire to be in fellowship with the Catholic Church here on earth.

See, here's the difference between the Catholics I know and myself.

The Catholics I know: Salvation is through the Church. That means through the Catholic Church. If you ain't Catholic, you ain't going to heaven.

Myself: I believe that the Church referenced is the Invisible Church on earth, that is to say, the fellowship of ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, whether they are Baptists, Presbytereans, Methodists, Lutherans, etc etc etc.

The bible says "Believe in Jesus Christ as your savior"

not

"Believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Father in Rome as your savior"

I think it is wrong for Catholics to say deny the above statement as it isn't supported by scripture.. Of course, I've had many Catholics call ME arrogant. I am able to say, with certainty, that I will be in heaven with my Lord and Savior. No ifs, ands or buts about it. How DARE I presume to know where I'll go when I die? Well...


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

[kepha31]

You can't refute what I posted, so you resort to misrepresentation, inventing lies about Church teaching, and red herrings to throw me off topic.


Your post has been reported.

[Spiritofprophecy]

The CC can take its olive branch and put it back on the shelf.

I've no desire to be in fellowship with the Catholic Church here on earth.

See, here's the difference between the Catholics I know and myself.

The Catholics I know: Salvation is through the Church. That means through the Catholic Church. If you ain't Catholic, you ain't going to heaven.

Myself: I believe that the Church referenced is the Invisible Church on earth, that is to say, the fellowship of ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, whether they are Baptists, Presbytereans, Methodists, Lutherans, etc etc etc.

The bible says "Believe in Jesus Christ as your savior"

not

"Believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Father in Rome as your savior"

I think arrogance is the perfect word for Catholics today. Of course, I've had many Catholics call ME arrogant, too. Know why? Because I am able to say, with certainty, that I will be in heaven with my Lord and Savior. No ifs, ands or buts about it. That apparently is the height of arrogance according to some Catholics. How DARE I presume to know where I'll go when I die? Well...


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Greetings in the name of Jesus:

I would have to grudgingly agree: but refrain from labeling all Catholics as Arrogant. Most scripturally based Catholics do not accept all the middle ages doctrines contradicting scripture.

I would like to add: that Church is not Catholic leadership. Church is people of faith, of all denominations.

I also would like to commune and fellowship with Catholics: But it is they whom deny salvation unto us: which is Great heresy, to Judge others salvation.

Catholic leaders commit Heresies, no other denominations so commit: to Judge salvations as if God: any child in Christ can Know this is evil. And Catholic leaders claiming Perfection in theology: Not only is this also heresy against the word and Jesus; but is out and out stupidity on the word. I venture to say Most laymen Catholics dont even Know this is Catholic doctrine and would not accept.

Arrogance? all groups have some like this. Only Catholics have Arrogance of Doctrine including Heresy of perfection? hahaha No doubt Catholics are in peril of Judgement by the measure they have Judged also. I pray only the leadership of Catholicism is so Judged.

To me it looks like the centralized Catholic Leadership Needs total removal. As Catholic Leader Frank Keating recently said about; Child abuse appointed to Investigate. " The Catholic leadership is not capable of self correction". And is " covering up and denying its problems".

And 2,000,000,000.00 $ (2 billion), of blood money to cover up Crimes against children; So Proves. Case closed, reform is absolute and needed.

I pray these truths written in News Papers which if proven wrong, I will repent; are corrected by followers of Jesus.

I pray no one takes offense by my words. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[kepha31]

would have to grudgingly agree: but refrain from labeling all Catholics as Arrogant. Most scripturally based Catholics do not accept all the middle ages doctrines contradicting scripture.
Catholicism is scripturally based, but the scriptures do not say scripture only. There are no middle age doctrines that contradict scripture.
I would like to add: that Church is not Catholic leadership. Church is people of faith, of all denominations.
That’s funny, Catholic leadership says the same thing.
I also would like to commune and fellowship with Catholics: But it is they whom deny salvation unto us: which is Great heresy, to Judge others salvation.
Commune and fellowship with Christians you persecute? Who are you trying to fool? I have clearly and explicitly quoted official Catholic teaching that says the opposite. Please stop preaching Satanic lies that false media reports brainwash you with.
Catholic leaders commit Heresies, no other denominations so commit: to Judge salvations as if God: any child in Christ can Know this is evil.
This is an unsubstantiated assertion and an insult and against the rules. If you are going to make charges of heresy and false doctrines, have the decency to state what they are, not what hate cultist bigots have said they are.
And Catholic leaders claiming Perfection in theology: Not only is this also heresy against the word and Jesus; but is out and out stupidity on the word. I venture to say Most laymen Catholics dont even Know this is Catholic doctrine and would not accept.
No, it is you that refuses to learn what Catholic doctrine is, but believe the lies of the media, and of hate cultist bigots.
Arrogance? all groups have some like this. Only Catholics have Arrogance of Doctrine including Heresy of perfection? hahaha No doubt Catholics are in peril of Judgement by the measure they have Judged also. I pray only the leadership of Catholicism is so Judged.
The Teaching Authority of the Church, superintended by the Holy Spirit is found in scriptures, and is infallible on matters of faith and morals. That is both in the Bible and in Tradition and can be proven. What you pray is for Jesus to be judged. Shame on you.
To me it looks like the centralized Catholic Leadership Needs total removal. As Catholic Leader Frank Keating recently said about; Child abuse appointed to Investigate. " The Catholic leadership is not capable of self correction". And is " covering up and denying its problems".

See my other post. And quote your sources.

The Catholic Church has a built in mechanism for correction, you have a built in mechanism for division.
And 2,000,000,000.00 $ (2 billion), of blood money to cover up Crimes against children; So Proves. Case closed, reform is absolute and needed.
Money given to help victims recover. What a sin!

I pray these truths written in News Papers which if proven wrong, I will repent; are corrected by followers of Jesus.

No, you will not repent for your persecutions, but will harden your heart, and close your eyes. Only the Holy Spirit can heal such bigotry, not forums.
I pray no one takes offense by my words. God bless C.F. and all who use it.
Your words are offensive, violate the rules, and I am reporting it.

[PreachersWife2004]

Why would one want to report threads in the debate forum?

This is the forum I'd expect to see things that might be contrary to what we believe about our church.

[kepha31]

No one follows the protocol of debate in this forum, I guess because it's not that important. Here are the rules. I will underline the ones that have been violated in this thread.

B. Carrying out a Formal Debate

1) A new thread is started in the Formal Debates forum.

2) The first 2 posts in the thread should be opening comments by each side.

3) There should then be several rounds of rebuttal (typically 3 to 4 but if it's teams we could go as high as 6) and then a final closing statement. If we do teams of 3 that should give each person 3 posts a piece. Word limits to maybe 2500 words/post (including citations). Give each person a maximum of 2 to 3 days to respond.

C. Ending a Formal Debate

1) Closing statements are then made in turn by each party or team.

2) The thread is then considered closed. Please do not post in a debate that is finished.

IMPORTANT RULES

1. Each post must have relevant content ie. it must stay on-topic, or be a rebuttal.

2. Ad hominem and personal attacks are not allowed

3. Proper citations must be given. There must be no pliagiarism or copyright violations.

Participants or observers can reports posts that fall outside these rules or general forum rules.

REMEMBER

We have lurkers, new christians and those searching for truth, visiting us daily. The low blows and bickering are confirming the old "hypocritical christian" point of view. We are told to love our neighbors as well as our enemy. That pretty much means everyone. Show your love even when you don't agree. We are here to edify, not tear down.

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

Ephesians 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ

Psalm 141:3 Set a guard, O LORD, over my mouth; Keep watch over the door of my lips.

Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Proverbs 12:18 There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, But the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Credits:

The rules have been set up by the following staff members as part of an Interdenominational Task Force (in no particular order):

1. Catholic: jukesk9
2. Non-denominational: JesusServant
3. Messianic Christian: P4I
4. Orthodox: Philip
5. Protestant: Gabriel

Adapted by Erwin.

[PreachersWife2004]

So, I have to sit and listen to how Catholics are the only ones going to heaven and that most of the rest of us are damned because we're not Catholic, but I post that the Catholics I know are arrogant and you go running and tattle? mmmm'kay.

Debate isn't about blowing sunshine around. It's about getting controversial topics talked about, and people can actually learn from them.

Would I recommend a 'new' Christian come here? NO. Heck, I'm not a new Christian and I just NOW got brave enough to venture here.

If you're going to report people every time they disagree with you here, you might want to get comfortable in your chair...this is the debate forum, and not everyone is going to agree with you.

Now...if you have any further problems with me, try PMing me first before reporting me. That's also in the rules. But I see you bypassed that one.

[Jim47]

So, I have to sit and listen to how Catholics are the only ones going to heaven and that most of the rest of us are damned because we're not Catholic, but I post that the Catholics I know are arrogant and you go running and tattle? mmmm'kay.

Debate isn't about blowing sunshine around. It's about getting controversial topics talked about, and people can actually learn from them.

Would I recommend a 'new' Christian come here? NO. Heck, I'm not a new Christian and I just NOW got brave enough to venture here.

If you're going to report people every time they disagree with you here, you might want to get comfortable in your chair...this is the debate forum, and not everyone is going to agree with you.

Now...if you have any further problems with me, try PMing me first before reporting me. That's also in the rules. But I see you bypassed that one.




I guess I would like to understand what a debate forum is for if not debate. :confused: I'm also curious as to why this members post was signaled out when the others seem to be agreeing with what she said. :)

I am asking this not to dispute your rules, I just honestly don't understand them. I would also like to be able to debate here, but I don't know how to get invited. Help please ;)

By the way, I'm not a new Christian either :P

[PoliticalGuru]

Why would one want to report threads in the debate forum?

This is the forum I'd expect to see things that might be contrary to what we believe about our church.

Debate is one thing, unfounded slander is another.

[Jim47]

I did read the rules, but I too see that no one follows them. So what rules are actually observed?

[PreachersWife2004]

Debate is one thing, unfounded slander is another.
Ya know...if I had said that kepha31 was an ignorant arrogant Catholic, I could understand us having this conversation.

But I didn't. I referenced the Catholics that I knew, and yeah, I probably should've said the Catholic CHURCH and not necessarily its members were arrogant. Heck, the OP said the POPE was arrogant and I didn't see anyone reporting his post.

But Kepha31 says

You can't refute what I posted, so you resort to misrepresentation, inventing lies about Church teaching, and red herrings to throw me off topic.

I'm sorry...I was throwing him off topic? Wha? I certainly did not misrepresent...see that's one of the bigger problems with Catholicism. You guys think you're the one way ticket to heaven, but how is that possible when your members can't even decide which part of Catholicism they believe?

I've had members tell me that they don't believe in purgatory. I've had members tell me they do believe in it. I've had members tell me that they don't actually get to take communion because their priest takes it for them. I've had members who only get the wafer and not the wine and vice versa. There are Catholics who don't even believe that the Church is the one way to salvation. Which is it? I know some Catholics who do not know if they are going to heaven when they die, and I know some who think that's where they're headed, because of all the good things they've done in their life.

Catholics try to berate protestant religions because we have many denominations scattered over the world. I ask you, which is worse...a church that CLAIMS to be one body but isn't, or a church that understands its sinful nature and admits that others see things differently?

Far as I'm concerned, I'm sure there's a whole bevy of Catholics who will join us in heaven, along with the other churches that I mentioned in my very first post. I'm not arrogant enough to say that only WELS Lutherans are going to heaven, and I'm not arrogant enough to say that Catholics AREN'T going to heaven.

But I'm still arrogant enough to say that I AM going to heaven and spending an eternity with my Risen Lord and Savior.

[PoliticalGuru]

Ya know...if I had said that kepha31 was an ignorant arrogant Catholic, I could understand us having this conversation.

But I didn't. I referenced the Catholics that I knew, and yeah, I probably should've said the Catholic CHURCH and not necessarily its members were arrogant. Heck, the OP said the POPE was arrogant and I didn't see anyone reporting his post.

But Kepha31 says

You can't refute what I posted, so you resort to misrepresentation, inventing lies about Church teaching, and red herrings to throw me off topic.

I'm sorry...I was throwing him off topic? Wha? I certainly did not misrepresent...see that's one of the bigger problems with Catholicism. You guys think you're the one way ticket to heaven, but how is that possible when your members can't even decide which part of Catholicism they believe?

I've had members tell me that they don't believe in purgatory. I've had members tell me they do believe in it. I've had members tell me that they don't actually get to take communion because their priest takes it for them. I've had members who only get the wafer and not the wine and vice versa. There are Catholics who don't even believe that the Church is the one way to salvation. Which is it? I know some Catholics who do not know if they are going to heaven when they die, and I know some who think that's where they're headed, because of all the good things they've done in their life.

Catholics try to berate protestant religions because we have many denominations scattered over the world. I ask you, which is worse...a church that CLAIMS to be one body but isn't, or a church that understands its sinful nature and admits that others see things differently?

Far as I'm concerned, I'm sure there's a whole bevy of Catholics who will join us in heaven, along with the other churches that I mentioned in my very first post. I'm not arrogant enough to say that only WELS Lutherans are going to heaven, and I'm not arrogant enough to say that Catholics AREN'T going to heaven.

But I'm still arrogant enough to say that I AM going to heaven and spending an eternity with my Risen Lord and Savior.

You probably shouldn't have made generalizations? That in itself puts anyone over the line. As far as what part we believe, you can't look at what we believe based solely on what the Catholics you know say they believe. You need to actually look at what Catholicism teaches instead. For instance, I have people throw the 'do Catholics worship mary' thing at me all the time. That's a bad statement because, are they any Catholics in the world that do worship mary? Sure. Is it ok? No. Is it what the Church has ever allowed or teaches about Mary? No. I find it a little contradictory mentioning Catholics who have beliefs contrary to our Faith, when you have just the same problem in Lutheranism.

When we say we're the one true Church, we aren't saying we're the one ticket to heaven. We are saying that we believe we have the fullness of the Faith and the graces we recieve from Christ. The Pope never once questioned a Protestant's salvation, and to have Protestants continually bring that up when it's been disproven, just validates in my mind the statement that if a lie is repeated enough it will be believed as truth.

You've fallen into the same trap as every other Protestant I've known whose talked to me about this. You keep thinking he's said something that he simply didn't say. Also, we can have a confidence of being in heaven, but we don't believe in have a complete assurance because one doesn't know if you, or me, or someone else is going to fall away.

[PreachersWife2004]

PG, I was this close to becoming a Catholic. I dated a Catholic for three years. I've studied the catechism.

I've already maintained that I should've specified the Catholic Church when talking about the word arrogance. Of course, I'm sure people will be offended by that, as well.

You kinda side stepped the statement, though. I pointed out that it seems hypocritical for the CC to talk about protestant faiths having many denominations when the CC claims to be united and it's almost as "broken" as it claims the protestants to be. At least with WELS, you can ask five WELS people their doctrine and they're going to give you the same answer. Line five Catholics up and you're likely to get five different ideas, regardless of what the CC teaches.

[PoliticalGuru]

PG, I was this close to becoming a Catholic. I dated a Catholic for three years. I've studied the catechism.

I've already maintained that I should've specified the Catholic Church when talking about the word arrogance. Of course, I'm sure people will be offended by that, as well.

You kinda side stepped the statement, though. I pointed out that it seems hypocritical for the CC to talk about protestant faiths having many denominations when the CC claims to be united and it's almost as "broken" as it claims the protestants to be. At least with WELS, you can ask five WELS people their doctrine and they're going to give you the same answer. Line five Catholics up and you're likely to get five different ideas, regardless of what the CC teaches.

I'm suspect. I didn't sidestep the question. Just because we have individuals who are ignorant or the Faith does not make them a seperate denomination within our Church.

[Spiritofprophecy]

Greetings in the name of Jesus:

Kapha: dear sir.

you may Google (frank Keating) and (catholic pedophilia). and receive your source of truth in abundance.

but since you do not respond unto me in honor and respect, and find my words contemptible, and I have tried many times to share with you. I shall not then hear your words, and you are Ignored for false teachings and blaspheme when you address me next.

And to claim you stand on the word, is plainly false, and scriptures sighted are completely wrong without true discernment. Lest you seek to go to chat to hash this out, I will iggie you the next time you address me, in your unchristian anti God words persona. I will not hear this any more. for you address my value and not my words.

and if your believe that Popes are Gods and can excommunicate people claiming Jesus: then you need my and all prayers of believers for your soul. And I have never told lies or made false accusation against Catholicism. which I asked you to show which you never do. Only claim there are lies. Who speaks untruth here? not I.

I pray God shall bless those who cannot accept others of faith. God bless C.F. and all who use it.

[PreachersWife2004]

You assume those people are ignorant. I don't.

And seriously, go find 5 WELS people. I guarantee you'll get the same answer about doctrine. If a person doesn't follow WELS doctrine, either they leave of their own accord or they are asked to leave.

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name of Jesus;

Money given to help victims. Who's money? victims of what. priest of so called perfect church.? I would give a measure of truth unto you, as to help victims; If the help was not tied to silence of victims.

Since the Money is directly tied to silence and No accusation; or revelations to Press and public; I without doubt call it blood money; not " Help for victims" but cover up money for the church, to Buy silence. Which is mandated by the settlement.

And priest being transferred to Rome to prevent prosecutions, is a sin of Catholic leadership to protect evil. And is to facilitate Pedophilia.

Now the Church of laymen of Catholicism are the prey of these evil men cloaked in God. And should be treated even harsher than the average joe of such evil; not treated easier. Priest should be doing it better than other people. Not held to a lower standard.

And catholics of Non acceptance of others claiming Jesus as saved; should not be allowed free discourse to proselytize and insult others of God.

I hate not Catholics, I love them; I do hate their sin; which some claim exists not; which is blaspheme to say.

I pray my truths and words do not offend. I pray Gods love on all in C.F. and all who use it.

[PoliticalGuru]

greetings in the name of Jesus;

Money given to help victims. Who's money? victims of what. priest of so called perfect church.? I would give a measure of truth unto you, as to help victims; If the help was not tied to silence of victims.

Since the Money is directly tied to silence and No accusation; or revelations to Press and public; I without doubt call it blood money; not " Help for victims" but cover up money for the church, to Buy silence. Which is mandated by the settlement.

And priest being transferred to Rome to prevent prosecutions, is a sin of Catholic leadership to protect evil. And is to facilitate Pedophilia.

Now the Church of laymen of Catholicism are the prey of these evil men cloaked in God. And should be treated even harsher than the average joe of such evil; not treated easier. Priest should be doing it better than other people. Not held to a lower standard.

And catholics of Non acceptance of others claiming Jesus as saved; should not be allowed free discourse to proselytize and insult others of God.

I hate not Catholics, I love them; I do hate their sin; which some claim exists not; which is blaspheme to say.

I pray my truths and words do not offend. I pray Gods love on all in C.F. and all who use it.

:sleep:

[PreachersWife2004]

:sleep:

Nice. Real nice.

[PoliticalGuru]

Nice. Real nice.

No different than what he did.

[PreachersWife2004]

No different than what he did.

By what logic? He actually posted something, even if doesn't all make sense.

And you do what? Post a snoring smiley. That's a GREAT tactic in a debate, ya know. Way to get your point across. :doh:

[PoliticalGuru]

By what logic? He actually posted something, even if doesn't all make sense.

And you do what? Post a snoring smiley. That's a GREAT tactic in a debate, ya know. Way to get your point across. :doh:

Trolling is also a good technique, which is what he's doing. His post is completely off topic, has never met the Pope, yet he's casting judgement on all Catholics as being arrogant, acting like a preacher. What is he going to say next: That we are the Whore of Babylon? People have already said many times that what the Pope said didn't question anyone's Christianity or that all Catholics are perfect. And we are not the only one to believe this. If no one did, then why haven't the major church leaders gotten together and waited for the Holy Spirit to work and get the Church back on track? Because Protestants won't agree or be willing to give into with Catholics, and Catholics with Protestants, and Orthodox with Catholics. Why? Because they believe they are right to, but we're getting hammered because we say, this is what we believe. When the Russian Patriarch himself says that he liked the fact that this docuement was produced because it's being honest, even if he doesn't agree with it, says a lot to me of how much relativism has invaded Christianity when we're getting hammered for stating what we believe and saying that some things are right and some are wrong.

[PreachersWife2004]

Oh, I sure do apologize. I didn't realize we had to have met the pope before we could criticize him...

Hmmm...funny how so many Catholics are so quick to criticize Luther...yet have never met him.

But I suppose that's different, eh?

[PoliticalGuru]

Oh, I sure do apologize. I didn't realize we had to have met the pope before we could criticize him...

Hmmm...funny how so many Catholics are so quick to criticize Luther...yet have never met him.

But I suppose that's different, eh?

Yet you critcize the Pope, calling him arrogant, when you actually have the opportunity to see his actions, read his writtings, talk to people whove met and talked with him, and you think he's arrogant for not stating his opinion but the belief of our Church. To me you come across as someone who had a very shocking experience the first time they met a Catholic who knew their faith when it was challenged. As far as Luther goes, I've read a lot of him, and I don't hold him with the contempt that so many non-Catholics have for the Pope and our Church. The only statement I'd consider Luther being out of place was stating that even the angels have no right to test his doctrine. But he sincerly believed it to be true, so I consider him to be wrong, but not purposefuly arrogant.

[PreachersWife2004]

I never said the pope was arrogant. What I do think of him is that he is a misguided man who was given by a church that is arrogant.

It all boils down to how one interprets scripture. And I'm NOT going to get into the who exactly the rock was that Jesus talked about. That debate will go on for years and years and will only be answered rightfully by God...but I will say that I don't think it was Peter Jesus was referring to.

No, I do not think ill of the pope. I think it's arrogant for a church to proclaim that no other church outside of the CC is a true church. That is tantamount to saying we're all hellbound, even if you guys want to try to pretend that isn't what it's saying.

As for Luther, he was a man with convictions. He was imperfect, though...sometimes to a fault. But his idea was the right idea. He got out of the church that was claiming it could save souls for $$.

Thank God for small favors.

[PoliticalGuru]

I never said the pope was arrogant. What I do think of him is that he is a misguided man who was given by a church that is arrogant.

It all boils down to how one interprets scripture. And I'm NOT going to get into the who exactly the rock was that Jesus talked about. That debate will go on for years and years and will only be answered rightfully by God...but I will say that I don't think it was Peter Jesus was referring to.

No, I do not think ill of the pope. I think it's arrogant for a church to proclaim that no other church outside of the CC is a true church. That is tantamount to saying we're all hellbound, even if you guys want to try to pretend that isn't what it's saying.

As for Luther, he was a man with convictions. He was imperfect, though...sometimes to a fault. But his idea was the right idea. He got out of the church that was claiming it could save souls for $$.

Thank God for small favors.

That's tantamount in your mind, but not in reality with the teachings of the Church on non-Catholic Christians.

I guess you could say he was a man of Convictions, if saying that schism is never acceptable and inside reform is the only way and then going completely against it. He certaintly did grow the conviction that he hated the Catholic Church.

If the point of indulgences was to save souls, then you might have a point, but this just shows be how tainted your view on our Church is.

Thank God for Catholic Church.:crossrc:

[Michelina]

Closed Temporarily for Staff Review