Wow, so many adventist topics (question on EGW in here)

[Windmill]

Wow, so many topics in here are about SDA's! :P

Hey, uhm, question... what makes one here believe EGW was a prophet/wasn't and can prophets make mistakes? If they can, how can we determine a real prophet from a false prophet and whats the point? Unless what they say is infaliable, how can we trust what extra stuff they say that isn't in the bible? And, for the stuff that can be tested, whats the point in them saying it anyway if its already in the bible?

[Eila]

Wow, so many topics in here are about SDA's! :P

Hey, uhm, question... what makes one here believe EGW was a prophet/wasn't and can prophets make mistakes? If they can, how can we determine a real prophet from a false prophet and whats the point? Unless what they say is infaliable, how can we trust what extra stuff they say that isn't in the bible? And, for the stuff that can be tested, whats the point in them saying it anyway if its already in the bible?

Prophets can make mistakes, but not when prophesying. Prophets are humans, but when they are saying something like "I was shown", "I saw", or "I have been shown" it should be 100% agreeable with the Bible or it is not from God. When it is not from God it could either be from the devil or from their own mind. If it is from God it will be infallible.

I personally don't believe EGW was a prophet. I know she didn't claim to be a prophet, but she claimed to be more than a prophet. I don't agree with that either. I don't believe she was a prophet because the "I was shown", "I saw" or "I have been shown" statements contradict the Bible numerous times.

[Cribstyl]

Wow, so many topics in here are about SDA's! :P

Guess who have started most of these topics?
Guess who asks questions that apostles and bible-prophets have not taught?
Guess who ask questions leading away from sola scripture, where we can find God's answers to a life of godliness?



Hey, uhm, question... what makes one here believe EGW was a prophet/wasn't and can prophets make mistakes?

Not again, :doh: To compare EGW to Moses or any Old Testament prophets is a questionable dialog. It's says that God prophets forgot to tell the whole story.
I say this because EGW socalled inspired writings, teaches about issues from before creation and to the end of time, to include aliens from other worlds. Why are there more revisions of her writings than any books ever written?
There are many contradictions with EGW and what Jesus said was written by Moses and the prophets.

Example;

Mat 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=17&version=kjv#17)¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Was not Christ talking about the books of the OT in which Moses and all the prophets fortold what God revealed to them about Him?
What did Christ mean by saying "it is finished"?
What did Christ mean by saying "it is fulfilled"?
Does SDA believe and teach that Jesus, by say "the law" meant specifically "the ten commandments" rather than Genesis-Deuteronomy, which is also called "the Law"?


If Jesus was bound to fulfil every word that was prophesied by Moses and all the prophets, why should we accepts additional words from another prophet after Christ has fulfilled what was written in the past?

If they can, how can we determine a real prophet from a false prophet and whats the point?


A test of a prophet is to examine the words of that prophet.
The prophets of Old were chosen by God, they prophesied what God said and would do in their days and yet to come. A false prophet would add to or mislead God's people. We must hold on to God's word.





Unless what they say is infaliable, how can we trust what extra stuff they say that isn't in the bible?



Modern day prophets should not contradict the past prophets or the apostles through whom the Gospel of the kingdom is preached. Was it not made clear by Jesus Christ that;
Mat 11:13 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=11&v=13&version=KJV#13)For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=16&v=16&version=KJV#16)The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Christian are to look for those chosen to preach the gospel. The Law and the Prophets are fulfilled.

And, for the stuff that can be tested, whats the point in them saying it anyway if its already in the bible?
Consider this, Christ is seated on the throne as minister of the New Covenant in which God has established prophets as secondary to the apostles preaching of the Gospel. Jesus sent Holy Spirit to indwell believers and teach us His Gospel and the power of His resurrection.

God bless
CRIB

[Eila]

I forgot to mention another point. I know many people believe she is a prophet based on things like the Bible she held for a long time, etc. However, that should not be our basis for judging. Would SDAs say that if a supernatural sign happened to a non-SDA is of God? We are to judge by the Word alone. If a supernatural sign is of God then every word from the mouth of the prophet in prophesying would be infallible.

Honestly, she said she was shown that the door to salvation was shut (shut door doctrine). I don't see how anyone could trust in any vision based on that.

[Windmill]

I forgot to mention another point. I know many people believe she is a prophet based on things like the Bible she held for a long time, etc. However, that should not be our basis for judging. Would SDAs say that if a supernatural sign happened to a non-SDA is of God? We are to judge by the Word alone. If a supernatural sign is of God then every word from the mouth of the prophet in prophesying would be infallible.

Honestly, she said she was shown that the door to salvation was shut (shut door doctrine). I don't see how anyone could trust in any vision based on that.That was my reasoning for believing too, due to the supernatural occurances she had. However... one can only go off that for so long. If what she said wasn't good, then it is likely that Satan perhaps would've had his hand in her visions.

[Windmill]

Guess who have started most of these topics?
Guess who asks questions that apostles and bible-prophets have not taught?
Guess who ask questions leading away from sola scripture, where we can find God's answers to a life of godliness?





Not again, :doh: To compare EGW to Moses or any Old Testament prophets is a questionable dialog. It's says that God prophets forgot to tell the whole story.
I say this because EGW socalled inspired writings, teaches about issues from before creation and to the end of time, to include aliens from other worlds. Why are there more revisions of her writings than any books ever written?
There are many contradictions with EGW and what Jesus said was written by Moses and the prophets.

Example;

Mat 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&verse=17&version=kjv#17)¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Was not Christ talking about the books of the OT in which Moses and all the prophets fortold what God revealed to them about Him?
What did Christ mean by saying "it is finished"?
What did Christ mean by saying "it is fulfilled"?
Does SDA believe and teach that Jesus, by say "the law" meant specifically "the ten commandments" rather than Genesis-Deuteronomy, which is also called "the Law"?


If Jesus was bound to fulfil every word that was prophesied by Moses and all the prophets, why should we accepts additional words from another prophet after Christ has fulfilled what was written in the past?


A test of a prophet is to examine the words of that prophet.
The prophets of Old were chosen by God, they prophesied what God said and would do in their days and yet to come. A false prophet would add to or mislead God's people. We must hold on to God's word.





Modern day prophets should not contradict the past prophets or the apostles through whom the Gospel of the kingdom is preached. Was it not made clear by Jesus Christ that;
Mat 11:13 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Mat&c=11&v=13&version=KJV#13)For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Luk&c=16&v=16&version=KJV#16)The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Christian are to look for those chosen to preach the gospel. The Law and the Prophets are fulfilled.

Consider this, Christ is seated on the throne as minister of the New Covenant in which God has established prophets as secondary to the apostles preaching of the Gospel. Jesus sent Holy Spirit to indwell believers and teach us His Gospel and the power of His resurrection.

God bless
CRIBHi there. One thing that worries me in your post is you seem to disregard prophets because you think that there are to be no more prophets. John was certainly not the last prophet, and it is made clear that prophesy is one of the spiritual gifts. The early church have it- we can have it now. There ARE to be more prophets, as said by the bible.

Acts 2:17

[Cribstyl]

I saw that Windmill.............Your Church affiliation changed.

[Eila]

That was my reasoning for believing too, due to the supernatural occurances she had. However... one can only go off that for so long. If what she said wasn't good, then it is likely that Satan perhaps would've had his hand in her visions.

It was the same for me too. From my study into early Adventism I've found that the supernatural things convinced people that her visions were from God. If they had judged the visions by the Word instead of signs then the Adventist church would have a very different history.

[Windmill]

I saw that Windmill.............Your Church affiliation changed.I still consider myself an adventist.. for it is the closest to my beliefs. My current beliefs and question of EGW however mean it is unfair to other adventists I feel for me to be represented as one.

[Cribstyl]

Hi there. One thing that worries me in your post is you seem to disregard prophets because you think that there are to be no more prophets. John was certainly not the last prophet, and it is made clear that prophesy is one of the spiritual gifts. The early church have it- we can have it now. There ARE to be more prophets, as said by the bible.

Acts 2:17



Not at all, The history of Christainity is chronologically written in the New Testament. The prophets of the Old Testament had to fortell about Jesus. Does God use the prophets for the same reason today?

The text I posted was to prove that the Gospel of the Kingdom was the word of God that would primarily come from Jesus and His apostles.

Hebrew1 explains;




Hbr 1:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=3&y=9#)God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Hbr&chapter=1&translation=kjv&x=3&y=9#)Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Knowing that Christ came and now sent His apostles rather than prophets to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom does not say that prophet are no longer used by God.
When we examine the words of His apostle we are commanded to follow the apostles doctrine.

Yes, there are prophet today and YES, they teach what the Holy Spirit reveals to them about Jesus and the comming of the Lord.

My post was to show that noone should be compared to the prophets of the Old Testament epecially since even Jesus Christ had to live to fullful their words. They had different annointing and commission than mordern day prophets because Jesus Christ was yet to come.

1Cr 12:28 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=12&verse=28&version=kjv#28)And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Where is it writtem or prophesied that a prophet other than Jesus would lead christianity.


The Apostles preaching of the Gospel is first because the gospel is how people are save.
The Jews who denied and rejected Christ continued teaching the Law. Truth be told...SDA preach the law.

This text below reenforces what Jesus meant by
fulfillment of the Law Matt 5:17,18...It was not just the ten commandment.

Lu 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

CRIB

[Windmill]

Oh, OK, thanks, I misunderstood you :)

[Cribstyl]

Oh, OK, thanks, I misunderstood you :)
You're pretty cool,,,,,,,,May God bless you in all you set your heart to do.

CRIB

[NightEternal]

Windmill, have you ever read the book More Than A Prophet by Graeme Bradford? I would encourage you to have a go at it and see what you think:

http://sdanet.org/atissue/books/bradford/index.htm

There was a time, not long ago, when I was ready to totally scrap EGW as well. This book cleared up some MAJOR misunderstandings I had regarding how inspiration works.

[djconklin]

Yep! Most people give up on EGW and the SDA church all because of their over-simplified views of inspiration and what it means to be a "prophet." They chucked the baby with the dirty bath water when they should have hung onto the baby and chucked the dirty water as God intended them to do.

[Eila]

Yep! Most people give up on EGW and the SDA church all because of their over-simplified views of inspiration and what it means to be a "prophet." They chucked the baby with the dirty bath water when they should have hung onto the baby and chucked the dirty water as God intended them to do.

So if someone came to your church today and said that God showed them that the time for people to be saved had passed would you chuck out only the bath water? What if something supernatural happened when they were telling you that God had showed them that the time of salvation has passed? Would that make a difference?

What if someone came to your church and said God showed them that the Sabbath was not a requirement for today's Christian? Would you hang onto that baby? What if a supernatural sign happened when they were telling you? Would that make a difference?

[Jon0388g]

So if someone came to your church today and said that God showed them that the time for people to be saved had passed would you chuck out only the bath water? What if something supernatural happened when they were telling you that God had showed them that the time of salvation has passed? Would that make a difference?

What if someone came to your church and said God showed them that the Sabbath was not a requirement for today's Christian? Would you hang onto that baby? What if a supernatural sign happened when they were telling you? Would that make a difference?


Lol.

Hi Eila, long time no speak! :)

Can I just clarify: You agree with Windmill that supernatural manifestations are not enough to go by, to discern between truth and error.

Yet somehow, when you were being revealed "the truth," the supernatural aspect made a difference?

Just curious.


Jon

PS: And Windmill, I've already said my bit in the PM. But, just so others can see:


"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;.... do not give the devil an opportunity." Ephesians 4:14, 27

[Eila]

Lol.

Hi Eila, long time no speak! :)

Can I just clarify: You agree with Windmill that supernatural manifestations are not enough to go by, to discern between truth and error.

Yet somehow, when you were being revealed "the truth," the supernatural aspect made a difference?


I'm not sure what you are referring to, maybe you can clarify. Are you referring to the baptism of the Spirit? Nothing supernatural happened when I was baptized in the Spirit. I was baptized in the Spirit after I studied the book of Acts and was convicted on the issue by the Holy Spirit.

Also, supernatural happenings that I experienced later on were a work of God changing me. Supernatural things should never cause us to believe in the messenger. They should not support the messenger's message. Supernatural things from God will always lift up Christ and Christ alone. The supernatural incidents related to EGW have been and still are used to show that her message was from God. They lift up EGW, not Christ.

[Sophia7]

Prophets can make mistakes, but not when prophesying. Prophets are humans, but when they are saying something like "I was shown", "I saw", or "I have been shown" it should be 100% agreeable with the Bible or it is not from God. When it is not from God it could either be from the devil or from their own mind. If it is from God it will be infallible.

I personally don't believe EGW was a prophet. I know she didn't claim to be a prophet, but she claimed to be more than a prophet. I don't agree with that either. I don't believe she was a prophet because the "I was shown", "I saw" or "I have been shown" statements contradict the Bible numerous times.

I forgot to mention another point. I know many people believe she is a prophet based on things like the Bible she held for a long time, etc. However, that should not be our basis for judging. Would SDAs say that if a supernatural sign happened to a non-SDA is of God? We are to judge by the Word alone. If a supernatural sign is of God then every word from the mouth of the prophet in prophesying would be infallible.

Honestly, she said she was shown that the door to salvation was shut (shut door doctrine). I don't see how anyone could trust in any vision based on that.

It was the same for me too. From my study into early Adventism I've found that the supernatural things convinced people that her visions were from God. If they had judged the visions by the Word instead of signs then the Adventist church would have a very different history.

I agree.

[Jimlarmore]

I'm not sure what you are referring to, maybe you can clarify. Are you referring to the baptism of the Spirit? Nothing supernatural happened when I was baptized in the Spirit. I was baptized in the Spirit after I studied the book of Acts and was convicted on the issue by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will not direct you to do and believe things that are contrary to God's Holy Word.


Also, supernatural happenings that I experienced later on were a work of God changing me.

Changing you to believe it's ok to break God's Holy Law with impunity, or that it was somehow changed with the new covenant , thinking the grace of Christ allows us to do it, and still be saved?

Supernatural things should never cause us to believe in the messenger. They should not support the messenger's message. Supernatural things from God will always lift up Christ and Christ alone. The supernatural incidents related to EGW have been and still are used to show that her message was from God. They lift up EGW, not Christ.

As an adventist I'll admit there are a few who lift up the woman instead of her works. On the other hand the majority I have studied with lift up her works and not her per se'. I never take her writings over the Bible and she even advised us not to do that. As far as her being an inspired prophet of God I invite anyone to read her works with an open mind and see for yourself. Don't take the word of her skeptics as truth. Find out for yourself.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

[Eila]

The Holy Spirit will not direct you to do and believe things that are contrary to God's Holy Word.

I agree



Changing you to believe it's ok to break God's Holy Law with impunity, or that it was somehow changed with the new covenant , thinking the grace of Christ allows us to do it, and still be saved?


That wasn't the change I was talking about. My views on the old covenant and the new covenant came about after much Bible study.

I am not saved by my works, but His work. You are right, the words of the old covenant are not what is written on my heart.


As an adventist I'll admit there are a few who lift up the woman instead of her works. On the other hand the majority I have studied with lift up her works and not her per se'. I never take her writings over the Bible and she even advised us not to do that. As far as her being an inspired prophet of God I invite anyone to read her works with an open mind and see for yourself. Don't take the word of her skeptics as truth. Find out for yourself.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Lifting up EGW or her works is not lifting up Christ. If I lift up Danny Shelton or 3ABN am I lifting up Christ? If I lift up Mark Finley or It is Written am I lifting up Christ?

I was taught that EGW said that if she contradicted the Bible to go with the Bible - so that is what I did.

[djconklin]

I am not saved by my works, but His work. You are right, the words of the old covenant are not what is written on my heart.

When God said He would write the new covenant on our hearts He was referring to the 10C principle of love. That should be written on your heart.

Lifting up EGW or her works is not lifting up Christ.

Don't lift up her, or her works. Follow her counsel and study the BIBLE! On the other hand, don't run her into the ground either. She was called for a specific purpose. We have no right to put her down and attack her with blatant falsehoods.

[Eila]

When God said He would write the new covenant on our hearts He was referring to the 10C principle of love. That should be written on your heart.

I understand you believe that, but the Bible doesn't say that the words of the old covenant were written on our heart.


Don't lift up her, or her works. Follow her counsel and study the BIBLE! On the other hand, don't run her into the ground either. She was called for a specific purpose. We have no right to put her down and attack her with blatant falsehoods.

What blatant falsehoods have been presented here?

[djconklin]

I understand you believe that, but the Bible doesn't say that the words of the old covenant were written on our heart.

KJV Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Originally Posted by djconklin
Don't lift up her, or her works. Follow her counsel and study the BIBLE! On the other hand, don't run her into the ground either. She was called for a specific purpose. We have no right to put her down and attack her with blatant falsehoods.

What blatant falsehoods have been presented here?

I didn't say "here."

[Eila]

KJV Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Yes, it says "law". It doesn't say 10 commandments.

[djconklin]

Well, since some of the laws (see http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) only applied to the priests under the Levitical system why would expect them to be written on our hearts? Others, only applied to slaves. Since you don't have any they are quite irrelevant now aren't they? Other laws were only for those who applied to the judicial system (they won't be applicable until and unless you are in it--no cursing the judge!). Still others only applied to the building of the Temple. Also, we should note that many of those laws were simply exspanions of what the 10C say. Finally, we shouldn't have to note but we'll be very obvious: the laws regarding the sacrifices was rescinded when the Great Sacrifice was made.

The priniciple of the 10C was love: love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as your self. This priniciple of love reflects the character of God in whose image we are made. So, in the New covenant He writes that priniciple of love in our hearts. In word form, that love is expressed in the law (the 10C).

[Eila]

Well, since some of the laws (see http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) only applied to the priests under the Levitical system why would expect them to be written on our hearts? Others, only applied to slaves. Since you don't have any they are quite irrelevant now aren't they? Other laws were only for those who applied to the judicial system (they won't be applicable until and unless you are in it--no cursing the judge!). Still others only applied to the building of the Temple. Also, we should note that many of those laws were simply exspanions of what the 10C say. Finally, we shouldn't have to note but we'll be very obvious: the laws regarding the sacrifices was rescinded when the Great Sacrifice was made.

The priniciple of the 10C was love: love God with all your heart, mind and strength and your neighbor as your self. This priniciple of love reflects the character of God in whose image we are made. So, in the New covenant He writes that priniciple of love in our hearts. In word form, that love is expressed in the law (the 10C).

According to Jesus in Matthew 5 part of the law cannot be rescinded until all is fulfilled.

"17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "

What do you do with all the laws that do not fall in the categories you mentioned?

[djconklin]

The 10C continue to this day as they are the ONLY law that tells you what sin is. Now if you wish to wade through the 613 "laws" to pick some examples, I'll deal with those as they come up. I do not deal with mere man-made theory, only cold hard facts. It is precisely because the critics do not deal with the actual facts that they fail--see my tag line.

[Eila]

The 10C continue to this day as they are the ONLY law that tells you what sin is. Now if you wish to wade through the 613 "laws" to pick some examples, I'll deal with those as they come up. I do not deal with mere man-made theory, only cold hard facts. It is precisely because the critics do not deal with the actual facts that they fail--see my tag line.

Where does the Bible say that the 10C are the ONLY law that tells you what sin is?

How do you get around what Jesus said in Matthew 5? How can only some of the law still be in force?

[djconklin]

[quote]
Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36755028#post36755028)
The 10C continue to this day as they are the ONLY law that tells you what sin is. Now if you wish to wade through the 613 "laws" to pick some examples, I'll deal with those as they come up. I do not deal with mere man-made theory, only cold hard facts. It is precisely because the critics do not deal with the actual facts that they fail--see my tag line.

Where does the Bible say that the 10C are the ONLY law that tells you what sin is?

When the Bible says that the transgression of the law is sin; does it refer to the civil laws and the ceremonial laws that aren't in effect anymore?

How do you get around what Jesus said in Matthew 5? How can only some of the law still be in force?

If all 613 laws are still in effect then you are in big trouble because you haven't made your morning and evening sacrifices, right? Have you always abided by laws #572-3 (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) as it relates to women while menstrating? If not, why not? All things have not yet been fulfilled so you must obey!

[Eila]

[quote]

When the Bible says that the transgression of the law is sin; does it refer to the civil laws and the ceremonial laws that aren't in effect anymore?

It says law. If you are using the old covenant law as the definition of law in 1 John 3 then you must use the whole thing according to Matthew 5.



If all 613 laws are still in effect then you are in big trouble because you haven't made your morning and evening sacrifices, right? Have you always abided by laws #572-3 (http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm) as it relates to women while menstrating? If not, why not? All things have not yet been fulfilled so you must obey!

Yes, if you don't believe all things were fulfilled, then you must obey all 613 laws according to Matthew 5.

I am not under the old covenant law. It was all fulfilled in Jesus. He met all the righteous requirements of the law. He was without sin and paid the price for the sin of mankind.

[djconklin]

When the Bible says that the transgression of the law is sin; does it refer to the civil laws and the ceremonial laws that aren't in effect anymore?
It says law. If you are using the old covenant law as the definition of law in 1 John 3 then you must use the whole thing according to Matthew 5.

Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

[Eila]

Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

So what did Jesus mean in Matthew 5 when He said not one portion of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled?

The law against us was the old covenant law. 2 Corinthians 3 even refers to the 10 commandments as the ministry of death.

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36761990#post36761990)
Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

So what did Jesus mean in Matthew 5 when He said not one portion of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled?

The law against us was the old covenant law. 2 Corinthians 3 even refers to the 10 commandments as the ministry of death.

I'd start with the assumption that there are no contradictions in the Bible (God doesn't contradict Himself). And then, I'd assume that quite likely it is one's interpretations that are wrong.

Then I'd compare Col. 2:14 with Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee." Note that both use the word "against" that indicates that they are both talking about the same law.

Weren't you an SDA at one time? For how long?

[Eila]

I'd start with the assumption that there are no contradictions in the Bible (God doesn't contradict Himself). And then, I'd assume that quite likely it is one's interpretations that are wrong.

Then I'd compare Col. 2:14 with Deuteronomy 31:26 "Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee." Note that both use the word "against" that indicates that they are both talking about the same law.


You are comparing English words when the Bible was not written in English. If you look at the Hebrew word used in Deut 31:26 it

" 05707 `ed {ayd}
contracted from 05749 ; TWOT - 1576b; n m
AV - witness 69; 69
1) witness
1a) witness, testimony, evidence (of things)
1b) witness (of people)
against thee"

If you look at the Greek word in Colossians it is

5227 hupenantios {hoop-en-an-tee'-os}
from 5259 and 1727;; adj
AV - contrary 1, adversary 1; 2
1) opposite to
1a) set over against: meeting one another
2) opposed to, contrary to, an adversary

They do not mean the same thing. Yes, there are no contradictions in God's Word.

[djconklin]

Very good you know the diff between English and Hebrew and Greek words. Now get to the meaning. In the LXX (English translation) it says in Deuteronomy 31:26:

Take the book of this law, and ye shall put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God; and it shall be there among you for a testimony (or witness).

Hint, it's not there for them, but against them every time they break the law of God inside the Ark.

Weren't you an SDA at one time? For how long?

[Eila]

Very good you know the diff between English and Hebrew and Greek words. Now get to the meaning. In the LXX (English translation) it says in Deuteronomy 31:26:

Take the book of this law, and ye shall put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God; and it shall be there among you for a testimony (or witness).

Hint, it's not there for them, but against them every time they break the law of God inside the Ark.

I think I get what you are saying. Are you saying that the consequences for breaking the 10 commandments went away at the cross?

How would you explain this text in 2 Corinthians 3 where it calls the 10 commandments the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation"?

"7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory."


Weren't you an SDA at one time? For how long?

Does it matter?

[Cribstyl]

Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.
DJ, Are you defining what "LAW" John is talking about in 1John3:4?
If so,
It appears that the context makes in clear that he is NOT talking about specific sin but rather any act of unrighteousness.
This isolated text mouths the words that SDA use to define sin, because it appears to nullify Paul's teaching about "sin before the Law" in Romans 5...So by saying sin is trangression of the Law, they present that there must be law to define sin.



1Jo 3:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


1Jo 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
(to be pure is to be free from all sin)

1Jo 3:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


1Jo 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. ( DJ maybe you can tell us what sin the blood wont take away?)


1Jo 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (all sin,)


1Jo 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. ( the true definiton of sin, unrighteousness)


1Jo 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. ( John clearly is not talking specifically about ceromonial law and ordinances)


1Jo 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(clearly talking about any unrighteous act that defiles a person1Jo 5:17 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=5&v=17&version=KJV#17)All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.)

1Jo 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


1Jo 3:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Notice that from 1John 1, John is talking about the Law they heard from Jesus at the beginning og His ministry. (The 2Commandments)
.........................................................................

[Cribstyl]

Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

PROVE IT DJ...............

Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)[And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Here is Paul's lesson....#1 The fact is DJ, he is addressing Gentiles as if they were never under ceromonial law or ordinances, so how can you say that ceromonial laws were against the gentiles?:doh:
#2. The fact that they were dead in their sins and all tresspasses were forgiven" relates to all unrighteous act (SIN) gentiles committed rather than a devided law that SDA argue by isolating texts to establish a false teaching.

#3. The fact that the ten commandments is said to be included in the ordinances reenforces what was blotted out and nailed to the cross.

[djconklin]

This isolated text mouths the words that SDA use to define sin, because it appears to nullify Paul's teaching about "sin before the Law" in Romans 5

All texts are ultimately "isolated." I use the whole. You are ignoring Romans 6 & 7.

1Jo 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. ( DJ maybe you can tell us what sin the blood wont take away?)

Did I ever say that there was one?

1Jo 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Jo&chapter=3&translation=kjv&x=8&y=10#)Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. ( the true definiton of sin, unrighteousness)

The "true" definition?!?! Which Pope proclaimed that?

[Cribstyl]

Col 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


The lesson teaches that if we died with Christ, we're raised up to live in heavenly places with Christ Jesus rather than just as an earth dweller subject Laws made to keep people in line. Being told what to do, what to eat, when to fast.,Thou shall not this, thou shall not that. These law controlls only the flesh and have a form of worship but it's only to keep the flesh on earth in line. The following texts say:





Col 3:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND FROM THESE TEXTS DJ, IS HOW A CHRISTIAN ARE TAUGHT TO LIVE RIGHTEOUS LIVES, AND HOW TO ABSTAIN FROM SIN WITHOUT BEING GIVEN THE LAW OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (MADE FOR SPECIFICALLY FOR SINNERS1Ti 1:9 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=1&v=9&version=KJV#9) )WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.

Col 3:5 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

(SIN WILL BE JUDGED)

Col 3:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Col 3:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all. (NO LONGER "HEAR OH ISRAEL")
Col 3:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.
Col 3:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (THE WORD OF CHRIST RATHER THAN THE COMMENDMENTS OF MOSES)



Col 3:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Col 3:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. (GOD'S LAW WRITTEN ON OUR HEART ARE NOT 1 SIZE FIT ALL, IT'S A LIVING WORD THAT CONDEMN EVERY UNRIGTEOUS ACT... IT GIVES US POWER TO PUT OFF SIN AND PUT ON RIGHTEOUSNESS.....IT SPEAKS TO WIVES...)
Col 3:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Husbands, love [your] wives, and be not bitter against them. (IT SPEAKS TO HUSBAND....)
Col 3:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. (...IT SPEAK TO CHILDREN...)
Col 3:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Fathers, provoke not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged. (FATHERS)

Col 3:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
(SERVANTS)
Col 3:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; (YOU)
Col 3:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Col 3:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=003&version=kjv#)But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. (SIN WILL BE JUDGED)



SUE ME

CRIB

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36761990#post36761990)
Nope; Paul says the law of ordinances that was against us (the ceremonial law) was nailed to the Cross.

PROVE IT DJ...............

Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?

Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=8&y=8#)[And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Here is Paul's lesson....#1 The fact is DJ, he is addressing Gentiles as if they were never under ceromonial law or ordinances, so how can you say that ceromonial laws were against the gentiles?
#2. The fact that they were dead in their sins and all tresspasses were forgiven" relates to all unrighteous act (SIN) gentiles committed rather than a devided law that SDA argue by isolating texts to establish a false teaching.

#3. The fact that the ten commandments is said to be included in the ordinances reenforces what was blotted out and nailed to the cross.

1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.
2) There is no evidence (which is why you didn't produce any) that the ceremonial laws never applied to the Gentiles.
3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.
4) But, because your assumptions are false Paul says that those laws were "nailed to the cross."
5) I never said that the ceremonial laws were against the Gentiles; you read that in. :doh:
6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.

So, if the 10C was nailed to the Cross then there are no moral laws and there is no sin. Hence we don't need to be saved and we don't need a Saviour. The Good News is that we have been saved from sin and the punishment of death. All we have to do is to confess our sins to our Lord and our God and He'll forgive us. But, that maybe the problem right there: as one person put it "They want a Saviour, but they don't want a Lord."

7) So, we have now established that it is the anti-SDA's who use "isolated texts (and ignore the inconvenient one's) to establish a false teaching."

[djconklin]

WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND FROM THESE TEXTS DJ, IS HOW A CHRISTIAN ARE TAUGHT TO LIVE RIGHTEOUS LIVES, AND HOW TO ABSTAIN FROM SIN WITHOUT BEING GIVEN THE LAW OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (MADE FOR SPECIFICALLY FOR SINNERS1Ti 1:9 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=1Ti&c=1&v=9&version=KJV#9) )WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS.

Oh, I don't have to worry ab't the law. I listen to this great theologian who said it was nailed to the Cross. That makes it null and void. There is no law to condemn me so I already live a righteous life.

[Cribstyl]

Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?



You find it childlike to be asked to be ask to prove your comments of the scripture? I'm not disrespecting you, we're just not in agreement. (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences)


1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.


Paul's letter to the Colossian was after his 3rd missionary journey http://blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html
I agree with that He went to the Jews first, but this is a letter you should examine as a letter and not coded messages.


Does this text in context not specify "uncircumcission" and is relative to being "non Jewish"?
Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


2) There is no evidence (which is why you didn't produce any) that the ceremonial laws never applied to the Gentiles.

I should prove that Gentiles are called to serve God by faith. You should prove that they're suppose to keep ceremonial laws and I would be greatful to you for opening my eyes (ie,sabbaths, food law, etc,)

Rom 9:23 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&translation=kjv&x=11&y=9#)And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&translation=kjv&x=11&y=9#)Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&translation=kjv&x=11&y=9#)As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&translation=kjv&x=11&y=9#)And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=9&translation=kjv&x=11&y=9#)Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.
HE did, that's why this epistle to the Colossian should be read as a letter and not isolated from it's content.Col 1:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=1&verse=27&version=kjv#27)To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

4) But, because your assumptions are false Paul says that those laws were "nailed to the cross."

5) I never said that the ceremonial laws were against the Gentiles; you read that in. :doh:


No friend....you said ceremonial law were nailed to the cross but the texts explains in details how the penalty (death) of sin (transgression) is satisfied on the cross.
These texts are only 1 sentence. Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=13&y=12#)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=13&y=12#)Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&translation=kjv&x=13&y=12#)[And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
So I rendered my understanding, that, what is blotted out from the gentiles are their trangression against God's righteousness. (not ceremonial law)

By Law they were guilty of murder, stealing, adultry,etc, but with Jesus saying I Forgive you, I forgive you. The blood of Jesus shed by those nails erases the penalty required by the Law. The conversation in text does not suggest ceremonial law are ordinanances, it suggests earthly law vs eternal law.
the lesson is about the ordinances of 2 worlds heaven and earth.
......................................................................


6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.


Rom 4:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=14&y=10#)For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 4:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=14&y=10#)Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.


No, you cant isolate that verse, look for the period. :doh: Again, you have to read the complete sentence. It's actually saying " The Law brings judgment. When no rules are given, noone can accuse you of breaking it.
See how isolation can change the meaning? look at some of the other versions.


So, if the 10C was nailed to the Cross then there are no moral laws and there is no sin. Hence we don't need to be saved and we don't need a Saviour. The Good News is that we have been saved from sin and the punishment of death. All we have to do is to confess our sins to our Lord and our God and He'll forgive us. But, that maybe the problem right there: as one person put it "They want a Saviour, but they don't want a Lord."

7) So, we have now established that it is the anti-SDA's who use "isolated texts (and ignore the inconvenient one's) to establish a false teaching."

You have it all twisted to fit your agenda rather than to apply God's word to understanding.
We serve a Holy God and the wages of sin is death.

It is God who has given His word that, those "justified" shall live by faith in His word. Not in sinful nature as dictated by the Law. but in Godly nature as reveal by His indwelling spirit, Who teaches righteousness to every and heart.

CRIB

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36781015#post36781015)
Oh, very adult and Christlike! More like children's playground talk. And you're how old?

You find it childlike to be asked to be ask to prove your comments of the scripture? I'm not disrespecting you, we're just not in agreement. (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences)


Ah! That helps! When you said "PROVE IT" that is not an adult form of communication in America (partly because the use of all caps like that is equvalent to SHOUTING! and partly because that's the kind of "lingo" that children use.). Secondly, you didn't "Please prove it from Scripture." That would have made your intent more clear.

[djconklin]

1) The first people Paul went to to convert were his fellow Jews.
Paul's letter to the Colossian was after his 3rd missionary journey http://blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html (http://blueletterbible.org/study/paul/timeline.html)
I agree with that He went to the Jews first, but this is a letter you should examine as a letter and not coded messages.

1) You didn't know this: I spent 3 years studying the meaning of Col. 2:16-7. Here's the bibliography of the material I read: http://www.666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colbiblio.html So, I am quite familiar with the book. In case you are not aware most of my sources are from respectable scholars in the field.
2) I am well aware that Paul was writing a letter and I have never even tried to look for coded messages. Therefore, since I didn't do it it was an irrelevant point to bring up. In logic, your argument is called a straw man. In this case, you don't get any points. My point stands.

[djconklin]

Does this text in context not specify "uncircumcission" and is relative to being "non Jewish"?
Col 2:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Col&chapter=2&verse=13&version=kjv#13)And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Yes, but it doesn't mean that only Gentiles were at Colossae. The early Christian church was a mixed bag of Jews and Gentiles. That's why Paul kept running into problems.

You should prove that they're suppose to keep ceremonial laws and I would be greatful to you for opening my eyes (ie,sabbaths, food law, etc,)


1) Okay, since English isn't your native tongue that could explain some of the screw ups were having in communicating. I never said that the Gentiles were supposed to keep the ceremonial laws. In the OT era if a Gentile joined the synangogue they were expected to follow the ceremonial laws like the Jews. So, in the NT era some Jewish Christians felt that the Gentiles who joined the church should also follow the laws (like circumcision)--the whole argument in the NT that Paul is dealing with is what do the Gentiles have to do to join the church, to be among the accepted.

2) The Sabbath is not a ceremonial law. It is the 4th commandment in the 10 commandments. Neither are the food laws part of the ceremonial laws.

[djconklin]

3) If those laws never applied to the Gentiles and he was only talking to Gentiles then Paul would have said so straight up.

HE did,

He didn't. That's the whole point in trying to understand Col. 2:16--the believers at Colossae were keeping the feast days, new moons and ceremonial sabbaths. If they weren't supposed to be doing that (assuming only Gentiles) then Paul wouldn't have told them not let others judge them for how (eating and drinking) they were keeping them.

[djconklin]

The conversation in text does not suggest ceremonial law are ordinanances, it suggests earthly law vs eternal law. (emphasis added by DJC)

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").

[djconklin]

It's actually saying " The Law brings judgment. When no rules are given, noone can accuse you of breaking it.

BINGO! By Jove, you're getting it! If the Law was nailed to the Cross and rendered null and void then we are not "under the Law" and we are not sinners. But, then that also means that we aren't sinners, we are not condemned to death and we are rightous as we are.



6) Paul said (Romans 4:15) "where there is no law there is no transgression (sin)" (you forgot that text, eh?) Another "isolated text" you aren't paying attention to.
Rom 4:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=14&y=10#)For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 4:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=4&translation=kjv&x=14&y=10#)Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.


No, you cant isolate that verse, look for the period. :doh:

1) Again, since you aren't an American you should know that the ":doh:" is an insult.
2) Adding the previous verse doesn't negate my point that "where there is no law there is no sin." In fact, your following comments (see above) agree with what I was saying.
3) You didn't produce any evidence that I isolated the verse and I knew full well where the period was. The previous verse doesn't negate what I said.

[djconklin]

You have it all twisted to fit your agenda rather than to apply God's word to understanding.
We serve a Holy God and the wages of sin is death.


The second sentence is great. The first is pure bunk.

[Cribstyl]

Ah! That helps! When you said "PROVE IT" that is not an adult form of communication in America (partly because the use of all caps like that is equvalent to SHOUTING! and partly because that's the kind of "lingo" that children use.). Secondly, you didn't "Please prove it from Scripture." That would have made your intent more clear.

Unintended, I'm sorry
CRIB... I mean crib


Please prove it

[Cribstyl]

BINGO!

Is'nt that an insult by your standard?



By Jove, you're getting it! If the Law was nailed to the Cross and rendered null and void then we are not "under the Law" and we are not sinners. But, then that also means that we aren't sinners, we are not condemned to death and we are rightous as we are.


Nah.....You misunderstood me......You're mixing sin as depending on the Law. (your 1John 3:4 understanding)
But what is being taught in text is. that law is only a label that accuse or condemns.

Sin does not need a label to be sin to give it power. The soul that sinneth it shall die.


If text teaches that gentiles did not have the law. It means they sinned without having the Law....Rom 2:14 (http://cf.blb.org/search/getBible.cfm?b=Rom&c=2&v=14&version=KJV#14)Rom 2:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=12&version=kjv#12)

text teaches Adam to Moses did not have the Law but they sinned.Rom 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Rom&chapter=5&verse=13&version=kjv#13), 14
The wages of sin is death regardless of there being a law or not.
We're just going to have to disagree about what text reads.


1) Again, since you aren't an American you should know that the ":doh:" is an insult.
I wonder why no comments on the underlined statements above?

DJ, my previous comments to you was (English is not my first language but I am an American by lifetime expiriences.)




You're wrong that is not an insult, at worse case it's a DOH! (Imean doh) or CF would have remove it. .....The shameful thing about it that you think it's an insult and you had sent it to me previously...........That's right you're OT...eye for an eye...OK


2) Adding the previous verse doesn't negate my point that "where there is no law there is no sin." In fact, your following comments (see above) agree with what I was saying.
3) You didn't produce any evidence that I isolated the verse and I knew full well where the period was. The previous verse doesn't negate what I said.

:doh:

CRIB

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin http://www3.christianforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=36787907#post36787907)
BINGO!

Is'nt that an insult by your standard?

No, I said it with joy! Glee even! And the caps mean I said it loudly! Now if I said "YOU!" that is not yelling of loud, that's a command--it depends on which English word is being used. Note when you are driving that the stop sign is in all caps--that's a command.

[Cribstyl]

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and

the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").


Are you saying that the book of the Law just had only ceremonial laws?

[djconklin]

Are you saying that the book of the Law just had only ceremonial laws?

No. Only the laws with ordinances are ceremonial.

[Cribstyl]

Okay, again it could be that because English isn't your native tongue you miss things.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Note the section in red. The 10C are not ordinances and

the only laws that are a testimony "aganist" us are the ceremonial laws (Deut 31:26 -- "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.").


My question was to find out what you're saying in the above statement. "Are you say the book put in the side of the ark was the handwritting nailed to the cross" or is there another book of handwritting nialed to the cross?


No. Only the laws with ordinances are ceremonial.

What do you mean by "Law with ordinances?"

What are you saying is written in the book of the law that was put in the side of the ark?

By saying the 10c are not ordinaces, are you saying the book put in the side of the ark had none of the ten commandments written in it?


Respectfully
CRIB

[Cribstyl]

Deu 5:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

As you know, the first and only things that Moses speak to their hearing are these listed commandments.

( Djconklin, The fact that OT statutes are the same as OT ordinances, means that you are mistaken to say that the 10.com are not ordinances.) How do you plea?

Deu 5:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


Laws become ordinances and judgements when given by a ruler over the people. They become the rulers ordinances and judgements. So when it's called Moses law, it is also God law as proven by many scriptures.


CRIB

[sentipente]

If Christians truly believe that the God they worship created the human race how come the parents among the ranks of Christians have not realized how painful it must be to the Creator to see so much dissension in His family? Could it be that they all have "left home?"

[Cribstyl]

Deu 5:1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&verse=1&version=kjv#1)¶And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

As you know, the first and only things that Moses speak to their hearing are these listed commandments.

( Djconklin, The fact that OT statutes are the same as OT ordinances, means that you are mistaken to say that the 10.com are not ordinances.) How do you plea?

Deu 5:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Deu 5:7 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deu 5:8 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 5:9 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deu 5:10 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deu 5:11 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Deu 5:12 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Deu 5:16 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Thou shalt not kill.

Deu 5:18 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

Deu 5:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou steal.

Deu 5:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deu 5:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Deu 5:22 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Deu&chapter=5&translation=kjv&x=6&y=10#)These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.


Laws become ordinances and judgements when given by a ruler over the people. They become the rulers ordinances and judgments. So when it's called Moses law, it is also God law as proven by many scriptures.


CRIB