Sad

[Fish and Bread]

For a long while after I had become a regular, I was not allowed to post here because the forum rules mandated a creed I could no longer always fully agree with on every particular day. I was honest about how I felt, and changed my icon because of the requirement to wear that icon. For many many months I could not post here and offer my thoughts, which was a sad and frustrating experience.

Now, that wall has finally come down. I am full member again! I can interact with my online friends and acquaintances and discuss liturgical seasons and all manner of things.

But, just as soon as that happens, several folks adamantly start pushing to throw me out again, or to make me a half member. To diminish my status and tell me I am not good enough to be a full member of an Internet forum. Not only is it an Internet forum, but an Internet forum devoted to, amongst others, several churches known for being inclusive.

At least before, it was the site owner or ruling council or whatever that was causing these problems. Now many of my online friends themselves are basically telling me I and those like me are not good enough to be part of their circle. Then they whine that I and people like me have the nerve to counter their proposals to make me a second-class citizen or get rid of me entirely again. Some even talk of a separate coloured drinking fountain. Oh, I'm sorry, "non-nicene sub-forum". I'll grant that was the best that might be hoped for under the old rules, but I expected better of you people now that we all get votes. I hope I'm not proven wrong for expecting better, though it's certainly starting to look like I was.

[Camden202]

For a long while after I had become a regular, I was not allowed to post here because the forum rules mandated a creed I could no longer always fully agree with on every particular day. I was honest about how I felt, and changed my icon because of the requirement to wear that icon. For many many months I could not post here and offer my thoughts, which was a sad and frustrating experience.

Now, that wall has finally come down. I am full member again! I can interact with my online friends and acquaintances and discuss liturgical seasons and all manner of things.

But, just as soon as that happens, several folks adamantly start pushing to throw me out again, or to make me a half member. To diminish my status and tell me I am not good enough to be a full member of an Internet forum. Not only is it an Internet forum, but an Internet forum devoted to, amongst others, several churches known for being inclusive.

At least before, it was the site owner or ruling council or whatever that was causing these problems. Now many of my online friends themselves are basically telling me I and those like me are not good enough to be part of their circle. Then they whine that I and people like me have the nerve to counter their proposals to make me a second-class citizen or get rid of me entirely again. Some even talk of a separate coloured drinking fountain. Oh, I'm sorry, "non-nicene sub-forum". I'll grant that was the best that might be hoped for under the old rules, but I expected better of you people now that we all get votes. I hope I'm not proven wrong for expecting better, though it's certainly starting to look like I was.
Hello Fish and Bread;

I am only new to this forum but please let me be the first to apologise to you.

As an Anglican... I practice 'inclusive' Anglicanism. That EVERYONE is welcome. My parish gets the regular sermon (reminder) of the 'Gospel of Hospitality'... which is regularly adhered to on Sundays :) (Mass then up the hill for lunch, then roll back down the hill for Evensong.)

After Mass its always "Tea? Coffee?? Port?? Sherry? Muscat?? or Wine??" along with an array of edibles. This is shared with EVERYONE regardless of who they are, where they come from or what belief they hold dear... it is 'inclusive'

I appreciate that you have taken the time to write your post and I feel the pain contained within it.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

May God bless you and keep you in his care.

[longhair75]

Friend Fish and Bread,

If you self identify as an Anglican, you are a member of this forum. We have several members here who do not carry an Anglican Icon or even attend an Anglican Church who are full members of the forum. As we work on the forum specific rules, we will work this out.

[Inside Edge]

I really like the process we've been forced into. There was so much frustration with the old global rules and so much tapering of discussion and debate. Erwin has given us the chance to do it 'our way,' and I find it very interesting to see how we're dealing with it. We don't like a few rules or regs? We would do it differently? Well, now we can! Easier said than done... :)

The real upshot here will be the quality of discussion and debate, especially in the congregational forums (like STR). We won't be governed by the same global rules as everywhere else - we can set and change our rules as necessary, making our forum unique, in a sense. Each congregation will now have the ability to define themselves a little bit more and be more reflective of their action denomination (or whatever you want to call it). It's a great oppportunity, and make no mistake: our world here will be what we make of it.

So, Fish and Bread, we're in the infancy of the process - don't get all bent out of shape just yet.

[karen freeinchristman]

For a long while after I had become a regular, I was not allowed to post here because the forum rules mandated a creed I could no longer always fully agree with on every particular day. I was honest about how I felt, and changed my icon because of the requirement to wear that icon. For many many months I could not post here and offer my thoughts, which was a sad and frustrating experience.

Now, that wall has finally come down. I am full member again! I can interact with my online friends and acquaintances and discuss liturgical seasons and all manner of things.

But, just as soon as that happens, several folks adamantly start pushing to throw me out again, or to make me a half member. To diminish my status and tell me I am not good enough to be a full member of an Internet forum. Not only is it an Internet forum, but an Internet forum devoted to, amongst others, several churches known for being inclusive.

At least before, it was the site owner or ruling council or whatever that was causing these problems. Now many of my online friends themselves are basically telling me I and those like me are not good enough to be part of their circle. Then they whine that I and people like me have the nerve to counter their proposals to make me a second-class citizen or get rid of me entirely again. Some even talk of a separate coloured drinking fountain. Oh, I'm sorry, "non-nicene sub-forum". I'll grant that was the best that might be hoped for under the old rules, but I expected better of you people now that we all get votes. I hope I'm not proven wrong for expecting better, though it's certainly starting to look like I was.
Registering my view: I don't like the different 'levels of membership' idea either.

And I absolutely LOVE having you around more now, John! :)

[PaladinValer]

How can you reconcile that, Karen, without getting rid of the Nicene Creed?

Some sort of membership level is therefore necessary.

[karen freeinchristman]

How can you reconcile that, Karen, without getting rid of the Nicene Creed?

Some sort of membership level is therefore necessary.Let me begin by saying that I would like to keep the Nicene Creed as a bottom line. The big question in my mind is, "What exactly do the 'non-nicene' people find to be problematic in the creed?" Until those who are concerned answer that question, I don't think we can resolve this issue once and for all.

[PaladinValer]

If that is the bottom line, then Fish and Bread still cannot qualify.

We unfortunately cannot have our cake and eat it too.

[karen freeinchristman]

If that is the bottom line, then Fish and Bread still cannot qualify.

We unfortunately cannot have our cake and eat it too.
Would it be possible to include all people who consider themselves Anglican or Old Catholic, without any levels of membership, and then in the rules of the forum, disallow any debate on the doctrines directly contained in the Nicene Creed?

[Lel]

As long as you are able to post in this subforum you can still find ways of talking about Anglican topics that you find important.

[RadixLecti]

For a long while after I had become a regular, I was not allowed to post here because the forum rules mandated a creed I could no longer always fully agree with on every particular day. I was honest about how I felt, and changed my icon because of the requirement to wear that icon. For many many months I could not post here and offer my thoughts, which was a sad and frustrating experience.

Now, that wall has finally come down. I am full member again! I can interact with my online friends and acquaintances and discuss liturgical seasons and all manner of things.

But, just as soon as that happens, several folks adamantly start pushing to throw me out again, or to make me a half member. To diminish my status and tell me I am not good enough to be a full member of an Internet forum. Not only is it an Internet forum, but an Internet forum devoted to, amongst others, several churches known for being inclusive.

At least before, it was the site owner or ruling council or whatever that was causing these problems. Now many of my online friends themselves are basically telling me I and those like me are not good enough to be part of their circle. Then they whine that I and people like me have the nerve to counter their proposals to make me a second-class citizen or get rid of me entirely again. Some even talk of a separate coloured drinking fountain. Oh, I'm sorry, "non-nicene sub-forum". I'll grant that was the best that might be hoped for under the old rules, but I expected better of you people now that we all get votes. I hope I'm not proven wrong for expecting better, though it's certainly starting to look like I was.





Hey Fish,

I'm hoping that we can find a way that allows for Nicene-only perspectives, and that alows Non-Nicene Anglicans to interect in STR. The only way I can think of that wont relegate anyone to second class citizenship is through sub-forums. I really like having you around, and I appreciate your honesty.

[PaladinValer]

Would it be possible to include all people who consider themselves Anglican or Old Catholic, without any levels of membership, and then in the rules of the forum, disallow any debate on the doctrines directly contained in the Nicene Creed?

We're going to need some form of multi-level membership.

Full Membership needs to be for Anglicans/Old Catholics only. And that means agreement with the Nicene Creed; you simply cannot have true orthodox Anglicanism/Old Catholicism without it. It is an official statement of faith in Anglicanism/Old Catholic. Take it out, and you've left.

Non-Nicenes, if we want to keep the Creed, are going to have to accept a less-than-full status. If we go by the Creed, that's just how it is going to be. We can make it so that they still have a great many rights and privileges (as well as special restrictions), but if we give them all the same rights, then why utilize the Creed?

I'll see if I can adjust my suggestion. However, take a look at it again and take a look at all the other congregational wikis. Aside from WWMC, which really isn't a forum for congregations but theological viewpoints, my suggestion allows non-Anglicans/Old Catholics, Christian and non-Christian, a large amount of rights and privileges they could only DREAM of having elsewhere.

[Colabomb]

We're going to need some form of multi-level membership.

Full Membership needs to be for Anglicans/Old Catholics only. And that means agreement with the Nicene Creed; you simply cannot have true orthodox Anglicanism/Old Catholicism without it. It is an official statement of faith in Anglicanism/Old Catholic. Take it out, and you've left.

Non-Nicenes, if we want to keep the Creed, are going to have to accept a less-than-full status. If we go by the Creed, that's just how it is going to be. We can make it so that they still have a great many rights and privileges (as well as special restrictions), but if we give them all the same rights, then why utilize the Creed?

I'll see if I can adjust my suggestion. However, take a look at it again and take a look at all the other congregational wikis. Aside from WWMC, which really isn't a forum for congregations but theological viewpoints, my suggestion allows non-Anglicans/Old Catholics, Christian and non-Christian, a large amount of rights and privileges they could only DREAM of having elsewhere.

Or we can have two subforums... one for nicene Anglicans, one for Non-nicene Anglicans, where the main STR forum (which will NOT be abandoned) is neutral.

[PaladinValer]

That's still not acknowledging the truth of the Nicene Creed.

They'd have WWMC, which is specifically for liberal and very liberal theology.

[Colabomb]

That's still not acknowledging the truth of the Nicene Creed.

They'd have WWMC, which is specifically for liberal and very liberal theology.

WWMC is the PRE of liberalism. While most over there are quite happy trashing Traditionalists all day, some like Fish and Bread identify with liturgy etc and can't get a good conversation going over there.

[PaladinValer]

They don't trash liturgy. On the contrary, they actually like liberal Anglicans, liberal Vatican Catholics, and liberal Lutherans there.

[Colabomb]

That's not what I said. I said they trash Traditionalists (ie Nicene Christians) and are too busy with other things to discuss the things Fish wants to discuss.

[PaladinValer]

He could still post here; it would just have to be not at a full-membership level.

And remember: I think that non-full members should have the privilege of limited debating. Folks like Fish and Bread wouldn't miss almost anything.

[Colabomb]

I asked earlier, you may have overlooked it, how do you differentiate between right and privilage.

[PaladinValer]

My apologies; I never did.

If it is a right, it is guaranteed. Nothing short of moderator action can strip you from a right.

If it is a privilege, it is allowed but not guaranteed. At any time, if necessary, a privilege can be revoked, although there would have to be a good reason for it.

Think about education. Everyone has the right to one, but when you enter college, you merely have the privilege to attend.