Wiki: Theologia Crucis - Lutherans (TCL)

[BigNorsk]

Rules of the Theologia Crucis - Lutherans (http://www.christianforums.com/f367-theologia-crucis-lutherans.html) (TCL) forum.

1. Everyone is welcome to post socially, and people who are not full members may ask questions and indeed even debate. However, there is a limit to how much debating people who are not full members will be allowed. They will not be allowed to use TCL for proselytizing for other faiths, nor are they to repeatedly try to make the same point after it has been answered by full members. In general, the moderators will decide when this point has been reached. Points debated should be backed up by scripture and not by another denomination's catechism or resource for information. In other words, do not come to TCL to try to "teach" the Lutherans because you feel they are wrong.

TCL members will be allowed to defend the teachings and practices of the Evangelical Lutheran Church using both the Scriptures, as the primary norm, and the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church as found in the Book of Concord of 1580, as the secondary source of teaching and doctrine.

If it is decided that a person is uncooperative and mostly operating with the intention of causing trouble or proselytizing he/she may be banned from the forum. Generally this will occur after several moderator PM's telling that member how he/she is not abiding by forum or subforum rules. People who come to TCL to do nothing more then cause trouble will be treated as trouble makers and will be asked to leave our forum peacfully. We expect visitors to conduct themselves in a manner that would be fitting for them to actually visit one of our churches in person. In addition to and including the warnings a "sticky" thread will be formed with the advisement for all TCL forum and sub forums members to initiated the "IGNORE" option so the "offender" will be "ignored". When the "ignore" option is initiated the offender and initiator can not see, read or PM each other. If used in totem in the forum it will be an effective total banning of that provocateur.

Offenders are not tolerated for the protection and safety of our forum members.

2. Generally full members will be members of a Lutheran or Moravian congregation, but realizing that that is not always possible, there might be some who are Lutheran who do not belong for whatever reason to such a congregation. Note that a Lutheran congregation doesn't have to have Lutheran in it's name.

These individuals who are Lutheran without belonging to a Lutheran congregation, will however have certain characteristics.
A. They will uphold the Apostles, Nicene, and Anthansian Creeds (http://www.bookofconcord.org/creeds.html).
B. They will hold to the Augsburg Confession (http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.html) as a true confession of biblical truths.
C. They will hold the five solas as they were originally formulated.
a. sola Scriptura, scripture alone, the books of the New and Old Testament in the Bible are the sole rule and norm of faith.

b. sola Gracia, grace alone, we are saved totally by the grace of God and man cannot contribute or cooperate in his justification.

c. sola Fida, faith alone, we are saved through faith, and not by works.

d. solus Christus, Christ alone, we are saved totally for the glory and by the works of Christ.

e. soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone. The purpose of everything is and totally shall be the glory of God.

It is asked that full members either display through their icons (either outwardly exposed or identifying Lutheran in some way when a cursor hovers over the faith icon) or put something identifying themselves as such somewhere such as in their signature line in order to help the moderators of the forum.

3. Subforums. There are two subforums for discussion that is better done in the subforums rather than the general forum. They are:
3a. LCMS/WELS/ELS/LCC (http://www.christianforums.com/f517-lcms-wels-els-lcc.html)
Subforum for the more conservative Lutheran branches.

and
http://www.christianforums.com/clear.gif3b. ELCA/ELCIC (http://www.christianforums.com/f518-elca-elcic.html)
Subforum for the more liberal Lutheran branches.

Generally, non full members should not post in the subforums unless they have a question that they want to have answered by that group of Lutherans.

To help explain the division, it is that the more conservative Lutheran branches generally use a grammatical-historical hermeneutic or style of interpretation. In addition most are confessional. A confessional Lutheran is one who holds a quia subscription to the entire Book of Concord (http://www.christianforums.com/www.bookofconcord.org). A quia subscription holds that the Book of Concord (http://www.christianforums.com/www.bookofconcord.org) is entirely biblical.

The more liberal Lutheran branches generally use a historical critical hermeneutic. In addition they are generally not confessional, but tend to hold to a quantenus subscription to the Book of Concord (http://www.christianforums.com/www.bookofconcord.org). A quantenus subscription would be holding to the Book of Concor (http://www.christianforums.com/www.bookofconcord.org)d as far as it is in agreement with scripture.

While the lines of what is conservative and what is liberal are not perfect, that is the general description. Some individuals in the mentioned synod may more rightly belong to the other group and there are some smaller synods that don't necessarily fit either group perfectly. In general people should post in the general forum unless there is a need for the peace of the forum to use one or the other subforum. In addition, there are social threads in both subforums for each group to get to know others within their subforum better.

TCL members would like you to know that they welcome questions about such things as what is Lutheranism, how it differs or is the same as other groups of Christians, and how should one understand Martin Luther and his writings. Lutherans have always been about proclaiming the gospel. The name that they gave themselves was actually "Evangelical" while the Roman Catholic church called them "Protestant" and "Lutheran." Lutherans have adopted those terms for them not as the original labels of derision but as badges of honor.

We would like you to visit TCL to learn more of the orthodox catholic Christian faith. Many people have many false impressions of what we believe and our practices. We would welcome a chance to share the faith.

[C.F.W. Walther]

If it is decided that a person is uncooperative and mostly operating with the intention of causing trouble or proselytizing they may be banned from the forum. Generally this will occur after several warnings.In addition to and including the warnings a "sticky" thread will be formed with the advisement for all TCL forum and sub forums members to initiated the "IGNORE" option so the "offender" will be "ignored". When the "ignore" option is initiated the offender and initiator can not see, read or PM each other. If used in totem in the forum it will be an effective total banning of that provocateur.

Offenders are not tolerated for the protection and safety of our forum members.

[synger]

Because of the discussion (http://www.christianforums.com/t5875228-a-non-confessional-and-moderate-lutherans-forum.html)about a potential new subforum for liberal Lutherans, I have been thinking a lot about this wiki. While it currently helps define the membership of each subforum under TCL very well, it doesn't really provide a framework for discussion and debate. Thus, some people feel that they cannot speak up without being attacked.

From my time on Theology, which is by definition a discussion/debate forum, we've had many of these same issues. So I propose that we look at adding some language to this wiki which will help outline the expectations for discussion and debate in TCL. THis would be in addition to the membership outline which already exists in the wiki.

This initial draft is borrowed liberally from the Theology Rules (http://www.christianforums.com/t5714445-wiki-theology-forums-rules-v20.html).


1. The main TCL forum is for fellowship and discussion among all Lutherans along the spectrums from liberal to conservative, confessional and non-confessional, liturgic to contemporary, all all variations in between. We welcome and encourage the discussion of Lutheran beliefs and practices. This can include discourse concerning what various Lutheran churches teach and confess, the rich history of Lutheran practices and doctrinal developments, and what various Lutherans believe that the Bible, confessions, history, and tradition teach.

2. Discussions should be about doctrines and history, not about other members or their personal faith. It is considered a flame to claim that a person is "not Lutheran" if they do not hold a particular belief or they disagree with traditional Lutheran doctrines. Just as CF allows people to self-identify as Christians, people can self-identify as Lutherans.

3. Posters in TCL are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY if you disagree with each other. It is expected that people who post here will respect Lutherans of all traditions, whether they study doctrines through Scriptures and confessions or whether they use logic and social commentary. All points of reference should be respected, even when you disagree on them.

TCL posters are expected to understand that attacks against a person's beliefs can be very emotionally-laden. In the context of a discussion, such attacks should be supported with evidence and examples. The focus should always be on the doctrines under discussion, NOT the person holding the viewpoint or their church.

Thus, it is appropriate when disagreeing with someone's doctrines to say something lik, "You say you believe X. Lutheran doctrine traditionally has taught Y, because of A, B, and C."

[LilLamb219]

If you haven't already done so, I'll put a link in TCL for the members to come here to help discuss this as most don't visit this place.

[ProfessorMom]

2. Discussions should be about doctrines and history, not about other members or their personal faith. It is considered a flame to claim that a person is "not Lutheran" if they do not hold a particular belief or they disagree with traditional Lutheran doctrines. Just as CF allows people to self-identify as Christians, people can self-identify as Lutherans. I'd like to comment on the first statement made under this point.

Discussions should be about doctrines and history, not about other members or their personal faith.This sounds too burdensome as it stands. If someone comes into TCL seeking answers for issues regarding their own faith, the statement as it now stands would necessarily limit discussion and they may not get answers. Others may not be able to respond because any response would be discussing another's personal faith (as the statement now stands.)

[LilLamb219]

I agree...it needs to be reworded to show that others are not to make comments concerning someone else's faith (as in, your faith is lacking, etc...).

[DaRev]

2. Discussions should be about doctrines and history, not about other members or their personal faith. It is considered a flame to claim that a person is "not Lutheran" if they do not hold a particular belief or they disagree with traditional Lutheran doctrines. Just as CF allows people to self-identify as Christians, people can self-identify as Lutherans.

I have issues with this one.

How do we define "members"? By their faith icon, which truly means nothing anymore? By their simple "say so"? By what congregation they 'attend'? Or by what they prescribe and confess to?

If someone claims to be "Lutheran" but is confessing something that is clearly not considered Lutheran teaching, are we not allowed to defend the faith? Are we to simply appease their error and ignorance?

I think not.

[LilLamb219]

Number 3 concerns me and I've been trying to put it down in writing but it's not coming out right at all. Hopefully someone else will catch my brain waves and state it for me (it has happened a lot on TCL, trust me!) :)

[DaRev]

The problem with number 3 is the notion that one can obtain any knowledge of the Lutheran faith (at least enough so to comprehend what the Lutheran Church holds and teaches) through "logic and social commentary", both of which are inherently flawed. The Lutheran Church's formal principal is "sola Scriptura" and the Confessions are read and interpreted as being thoroughly Scriptural.

To try and ascertain doctrine or even base an argument from "logic and social commentary" is just not possible. If someone is wrong, I'm going to tell them they are wrong and do what I can to corrent their error. There is nothing wrong with telling someone they are incorrect in their opinion of something. That's how people learn.

Personally, I will never agree with a position tha goes against the very tenets of the Church. If I get reported or banned by doing so, so be it. It's happened to me before, and the world didn't end.

[LilLamb219]

That's where I was going...the logic and social commentary disagrees somewhat with what we already have in our wiki:

C. They will hold the five solas as they were originally formulated.
a. sola Scriptura, scripture alone, the books of the New and Old Testament in the Bible are the sole rule and norm of faith.

If number 3 can be reworded in a way to not disagree with what constitutes our faith as Lutherans...?

[Jim47]

I guess I'm curious why we should change our rules when everyone seems to be fine with them. I hardly think just because a couple people want change means that we should all bow to change.

Someone please point out to me what is wrong with the rules we already have that were approved by all TCL members who actually are Lutheran?

And Synger, you don't even belong to a Lutheran church so I don't understand why you need this change. Again, what is wrong with the rules we have. I'm not willing to adapt the rules of Theology as we are not Theology, we are TCL, for anyone that wants to post in Theology that is certianly an option open to all.

[QuiltAngel]

If we have to make any change, I suggest we add the first point plus the first sentence of number 2 to what we already have.

Are we going to be changing the rules everytime someone gets upset? We just went through quite a discussion for rules and subforums not too long ago. At that time the members went with the rules we have and felt it was not necessary to have any more subforums.

[Jim47]

If any changes are to be made they will be discussed and voted on in TCL by all voting members of TCL, not in this wiki. That is part of our current rules and we are not changing them just because someone invented these wiki's

So I suggest you take this disccsion to TCL, or I can move this thread if you like.

[Melethiel]

Someone please point out to me what is wrong with the rules we already have that were approved by all TCL members who actually are Lutheran?
The rules that are in place now were approved by the conservative TCL members. Many of the people posting now had no input in them. (Neither did I, for that matter.) Or are you suggesting that people who want to have some rights in TCL now aren't Lutheran?
TCL is not a continuation of the LCMS subforum. If more moderate or liberal Lutherans are stating they have problems with the main forum as it stands, perhaps it behooves us to at least listen.

[DaRev]

Does that mean we have to change the rules every time a new member joins? That's a little ridiculous to me.

These folks that are complaining have been CF members for a long time and have opted not to be a part of TCL. They (and you, too, for that matter) weren't prevented from participating, they chose not to.

[Jim47]

The rules that are in place now were approved by the conservative TCL members. Many of the people posting now had no input in them. (Neither did I, for that matter.) Or are you suggesting that people who want to have some rights in TCL now aren't Lutheran?
TCL is not a continuation of the LCMS subforum. If more moderate or liberal Lutherans are stating they have problems with the main forum as it stands, perhaps it behooves us to at least listen.



Not saying that at all. If everyone wants to change rules fine, but it will be discussed in the open forum as we all decided on before. You were able to vote on this before just as all recognized Lutherans were and you can vote on it again.

But I think we need to realize something here. The open TCL forum is for debate and I've even seen you post support in favor of that and not too long ago. In any debate there will be opposing sides and beliefs, otherwise it wouldn't be debate would it?

With that in mind, what is wrong with the main forum? Staff have a long history of hearing reports which are over 75% made by the Liberals and have always taken appropiate action. What more can we do? :confused:

[Melethiel]

But I think we need to realize something here. The open TCL forum is for debate and I've even seen you post support in favor of that and not too long ago. In any debate there will be opposing sides and beliefs, otherwise it wouldn't be debate would it?
Yes, I am in favor of debate. I am also in favor of guidelines regarding debate. Throwing around loaded and emotional terms is not debating. And this is what has happened time and time again in TCL. It's one thing to act on it after the fact - it's another to set up some preemptive guidelines. (As an example, ever since we've established guidelines in Theology, we've had far fewer flame wars.)

These folks that are complaining have been CF members for a long time and have opted not to be a part of TCL. They (and you, too, for that matter) weren't prevented from participating, they chose not to. And now they want to, but for whatever reasons feel they can't. Have you ever thought about WHY they might have opted not to be a part of TCL? They are now making their concerns known - I think it behooves everyone to at least listen. You don't have to agree.
With that in mind, what is wrong with the main forum?
You commented to me that I wasn't posting in TCL as much as I used to. If, for a very long time, I felt more comfortable posting in GT than in TCL, what does that say?


ETA: Do I think the existing guidelines need to be totally scrapped? No - for the most part, I think they're good. Do I think that everybody who is asking for change now has a legitimate complaint? No. But I also think that TCL has a bit of a mighty fortress mentality which is somewhat intimidating to newcomers.

[synger]

I suggested this language primarily because the concerns I've heard raised about TCL are similar to the ones I've seen reported a lot in Theology -- being told not that your doctrines are wrong (which isn't a problem if you offer supporting evidence) but rather that you are therefore something bad (cultist, heretic, unorthodox, un-Christian, ignorant, a false teacher, etc.).

I have no problem with someone coming in and saying "My Lutheran church ordains women" and someone else responding by saying "I don't consider that a Lutheran teaching because it is contrary to what Scripture says..." and provides examples. I DO have a problem with the response being "Then your church doesn't have a real pastor, and you're not really Lutheran" (or the implication thereof).

I think that's the clarification that might help with the wiki.

I agree that some of what I drafted probably is contrary to what it currently there. Like I said, I grabbed what seemed appropriate to the issues I'm seeing. Deciding IF the wiki needs to be updated is part of the discussion, as well as deciding HOW to update it so that it incorporates not only the aspects that are already there but also the aspects that frame discussion as well.

And as for rules discussions, the wikis are primarily the places to hash them out, so there aren't threads all over the place that people have to keep up on. If that was changed for TCL, then we might want to incorporated that into the wiki, too, since members who were not active in the initial rules discussion or who come on later may assume that TCL rules discussions are like all the other rules discussions, and done primarily in the wiki discussion thread.

[Jim47]

I suggested this language primarily because the concerns I've heard raised about TCL are similar to the ones I've seen reported a lot in Theology -- being told not that your doctrines are wrong (which isn't a problem if you offer supporting evidence) but rather that you are therefore something bad (cultist, heretic, unorthodox, un-Christian, ignorant, a false teacher, etc.).

I have no problem with someone coming in and saying "My Lutheran church ordains women" and someone else responding by saying "I don't consider that a Lutheran teaching because it is contrary to what Scripture says..." and provides examples. I DO have a problem with the response being "Then your church doesn't have a real pastor, and you're not really Lutheran" (or the implication thereof).

I think that's the clarification that might help with the wiki.

I agree that some of what I drafted probably is contrary to what it currently there. Like I said, I grabbed what seemed appropriate to the issues I'm seeing. Deciding IF the wiki needs to be updated is part of the discussion, as well as deciding HOW to update it so that it incorporates not only the aspects that are already there but also the aspects that frame discussion as well.

And as for rules discussions, the wikis are primarily the places to hash them out, so there aren't threads all over the place that people have to keep up on. If that was changed for TCL, then we might want to incorporated that into the wiki, too, since members who were not active in the initial rules discussion or who come on later may assume that TCL rules discussions are like all the other rules discussions, and done primarily in the wiki discussion thread.



We can talk about rule changes till the cows come home, but any changes will have to be discussed and voted on by TCL members in that forum, not here. If you can come up with a list of theings you want addressed by all means open up a thread for discussion in TCL. I ask this becauise I don't want anything hidden or slid in under the carpet.

Once proposed rule changes have been discussed and the wording has been hammered out then we will start a poll, again in TCL open forum, not here. Our forum specific rules are in a stickey and were approved by TCL members, so we have to abide by them.

[synger]

Of course. Whatever processes we have, we need to follow. My point on that is that I have found no processes in place. The sticky of the rules in TCL is "the rules". This discussion is just the wiki discussion. Wikis are not rules. Not until they are "snapshotted" and "stickied" do they become "rules". So nothing is going to "slide in under the door", since any changes to this wiki are just that... changes to the wiki. (none of which have been made, btw)

I was merely pointing out that I found nothing in the TCL rules (or in this wiki) that actually explains how changes will be made. So while you can clarify it in this discussion thread, as you have done, that may not help six months from now when the question comes up again.

[LilLamb219]

If we're going to have sub-forum moderators who are different from the main TCL moderators, that needs to be discussed and written up as well.

[LilLamb219]

We need to have something in the wiki about our moderators for TCL like who can become one (personally I would not want a non-Christian moderating).

We also need to think about if we want to add to the moderating protocol rules. Do we need a consensus of 3? Is it ok for one person to take the reigns when no one else seems to be around and others are PMing asking WHY nothing is being done (I've had that happen before and it's frustrating)?